Work Starts To Get VLocity Trains For The North East Line

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 06 Aug 2018 10:40
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: North Haverbrook; where the monorail is king!
Which is interesting, given that BITRE tells me NSW doesn’t have a track class standard similar to Victoria. That leads me to two questions that watchers of this thread might be able to answer: is this true? If so, how does NSW categorise tracks instead? And second, how old is the Victorian system and how did it originate?
potatoinmymouth
BITRE hasn't been looking hard enough (or aren't willing to do your homework for you). John Holland Country Rail Network has a track class standard - currently defined in CRN Civil Engineering Standard CRN CS 200 - Track System. They have Classes 1/2/3G/3/5.
ARTC has a differently enumerated classification system that is based on traffic - Heavy Haul (i.e Hunter Valley), Interstate (i.e North East Line), Intrastate (e.g Gap-Dubbo line) and Light Duty (branch lines). Speeds and axle loadings are defined in Code of Practice Section 0: Track & Civil Management System and the track construction standards are defined in later sections of the Code of Practice.

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  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Which is interesting, given that BITRE tells me NSW doesn’t have a track class standard similar to Victoria. That leads me to two questions that watchers of this thread might be able to answer: is this true? If so, how does NSW categorise tracks instead? And second, how old is the Victorian system and how did it originate?
BITRE hasn't been looking hard enough (or aren't willing to do your homework for you). John Holland Country Rail Network has a track class standard - currently defined in CRN Civil Engineering Standard CRN CS 200 - Track System. They have Classes 1/2/3G/3/5.
ARTC has a differently enumerated classification system that is based on traffic - Heavy Haul (i.e Hunter Valley), Interstate (i.e North East Line), Intrastate (e.g Gap-Dubbo line) and Light Duty (branch lines). Speeds and axle loadings are defined in Code of Practice Section 0: Track & Civil Management System and the track construction standards are defined in later sections of the Code of Practice.
LancedDendrite
Appreciated, and apologies for not doing my homework, sir.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

A comment from woodford,

You cannot blame ARTC for the current state of the track, the old SG (East line) was built "on the cheap" and has always had drainage problems. The old BG (west line) was completely "run into the ground" by VLine, in the latter days of the BG both the track workers and the drivers considered the line to be unsafe.

The only cure for both the lines is to have enough funds to allow both lines to be rebuilt from the base up.

woodford
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

A comment from woodford,

You cannot blame ARTC for the current state of the track, the old SG (East line) was built "on the cheap" and has always had drainage problems. The old BG (west line) was completely "run into the ground" by VLine, in the latter days of the BG both the track workers and the drivers considered the line to be unsafe.

The only cure for both the lines is to have enough funds to allow both lines to be rebuilt from the base up.

woodford
woodford

No one who has been following this sorry state of affairs, then, will be surprised to learn that $235 million will only get us as far as the next big rainfall.

THE $235 million upgrade promoted as the solution to the North East's rail issues may be nothing more than a medium-term fix.

A review of the project by Monash University has never been publicly released, but Senator Janet Rice has revealed some details that had her "disturbed".

She grilled Australian Rail Track Corporation chief executive John Fullerton in Senate Estimates this week.

The Monash review found the $235 million in federal funding would only be enough if "uncertainties and constraints" were overcome by more rail works and negotiating with V/Line "to achieve common agreement on a realistic acceptance level" of the class 2 track.

The "preferred option" would have been targeted ballast cleaning and drainage remediation, but the $235 million was not enough.

"It is felt that this heavy investment in ballast alone will provide a medium-term solution, as there is a risk that the additional new ballast will become fouled and lose it's stabilising capacity, particularly in areas containing highly-fouled ballast and/or developing mud holes," the review stated.

"This highlights the fact that there is insufficient budget to undertake a complete upgrade of the (North East rail line) and that compromises need to be made."

Senator Rice asked if Mr Fullerton agreed that "the $235 million is giving you is a medium-term solution but it's not the full solution to the upgrade of the line?".

He said the Monash review did not dispute the ability of the ARTC to achieve its goal of upgrading the rail line.

"The $235 million is enough to get it to class 2 standard, but there are potential issues with the ongoing works that are going to be required," he said. "That was the objective: to achieve improved ride quality and ride comfort, improved reliability and improved resilience of the track."

Mr Fullerton revealed he expected the ARTC's $6-7 million maintenance costs to rise to cover the extra work.
Border Mail

Take this with a pre-election pinch of salt, of course.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

All track no matter how well constructed require on going maintence, this includes roads and any airservices (radio nav aids etc), to cut maintence is straight out shear stupidity.

The politicians in Aus behave as if we have no future.

I found the post above interesting, I have met and spoken to John Fullerton (ARTC CEO) a number of times, the mans no fool.

woodford
  skitz Chief Commissioner

All track no matter how well constructed require on going maintence, this includes roads and any airservices (radio nav aids etc), to cut maintence is straight out shear stupidity.

The politicians in Aus behave as if we have no future.

I found the post above interesting, I have met and spoken to John Fullerton (ARTC CEO) a number of times, the mans no fool.

woodford
woodford
.............and good at spinning his way out of trouble.
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
Got a few serious concerns about the upgrades about to be inflicted on the North East Line.....

My problem is, You cannot make a Silk Purse out of a Sows Ear...ya just can't..!

This goes back to when the line was chosen as the preferred route for the Inland Rail Line, which given the condition of the structure, the foundations, the nuts and bolts of what is needed, this line would require a total rebuild from the ground up.

Given the track spec's for the planned line, of which I know not, but would be expecting something like, say 25 TAL and capable of freight trains running at 120kph. I highly suspect the formation and the rest of the works involved in the construction of the line, would of never envisaged it being designed for such and even now does the formation meet the requirements for the planned upgrade.

You can build a mansion on the foundations that are fairly dodgie but sooner or later, the chickens will come home to roost.

So, does either track and alignment have the building blocks, the solid foundations for the intended use in the short term, not to mention the long term.

BigShunter.
  hbedriver Chief Train Controller

Doesn't matter how well a track was originally built if you aren't maintaining it properly.

At its most basic, it is all about drainage. Water has to have somewhere to go otherwise mud holes form. In this respect everyone should agree that the 4-letter train company has done a terrible job. Drains everywhere are blocked or non-existent, or even direct water to the track bed. Plant growth has continued unchecked since ARTC took over; there are large trees between the remains of the phone lines and the track where once was clear space. Try getting a photo of a train at most places these days if you want to assess for yourself; I've tried and found many of the old spots are getting grown out.

Even the new track around Wodonga has this problem; some trees were growing between tracks reaching 3m high before they belatedly sprayed them. And that must have been poorly constructed; it is among the worst bits of the line, and Victoria didn't build/maintain that.

We joke at work that ARTC is the only mob in the world the can insert a mud hole into a transom decked bridge during a drought!
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Doesn't matter how well a track was originally built if you aren't maintaining it properly.


We joke at work that ARTC is the only mob in the world the can insert a mud hole into a transom decked bridge during a drought!
hbedriver

That's GOT to be the quote of the day... Smile

M.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
We joke at work that ARTC is the only mob in the world the can insert a mud hole into a transom decked bridge during a drought!
hbedriver
Theyre the only profitable network owner too.......*


* excluding the Pilbara heavy hauls, and i don't know the profitability of the SA-NT line
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

https://Railpage.com.au/news/s/v-line-around-the-traps

A tad of detail on the Vlocity buffet units - they will be bigger than the current ones!
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Doesn't matter how well a track was originally built if you aren't maintaining it properly.

At its most basic, it is all about drainage. Water has to have somewhere to go otherwise mud holes form. In this respect everyone should agree that the 4-letter train company has done a terrible job. Drains everywhere are blocked or non-existent, or even direct water to the track bed. Plant growth has continued unchecked since ARTC took over; there are large trees between the remains of the phone lines and the track where once was clear space. Try getting a photo of a train at most places these days if you want to assess for yourself; I've tried and found many of the old spots are getting grown out.

Even the new track around Wodonga has this problem; some trees were growing between tracks reaching 3m high before they belatedly sprayed them. And that must have been poorly constructed; it is among the worst bits of the line, and Victoria didn't build/maintain that.

We joke at work that ARTC is the only mob in the world the can insert a mud hole into a transom decked bridge during a drought!
hbedriver
In all cases where I have witness ballast replaced the track drainage has been cleared, this though ONLY amounts to around 30% of the distance.THe base drainage for the East line is almost no existant, this though is problem from the lines original construction. This has only become a serious problem relatively recently due to both VLine and ARTC getting rid of the teams looking after the track.

The major problem is neither VLine or ARTC is given anywhere near enough funds to maintain the track properly, this is the governments fault. IF WE WISH FOR GOOD INFRASCTURE WE SIMPLY MUST PAY enough taxes to allow this. Neither VLine or ARTC can operate on zero funds.
woodford
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
https://Railpage.com.au/news/s/v-line-around-the-traps

A tad of detail on the Vlocity buffet units - they will be bigger than the current ones!
potatoinmymouth
Also interesting about Shepparton - the plan seemed to have been to do an extra road for the additional N set on the cheap, then provide high quality stabling when Vlocities are running, but based on staff concerns about trespassers they are going to put in proper fencing here for the Ns.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
https://Railpage.com.au/news/s/v-line-around-the-traps

A tad of detail on the Vlocity buffet units - they will be bigger than the current ones!
potatoinmymouth

Most informative Exclamation

Now....WHO was it that swore black and blue there would be NO buffets on the long distance V'Locity's Question

C'mon now stand up and admit your obvious error before you are outed Exclamation

Mike.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

C'mon now stand up and admit your obvious error before you are outed
The Vinelander

In fairness, Mike, I think the poster you are referring to repeatedly stated that there would be no catering on long-distance broad-gauge VLos.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
C'mon now stand up and admit your obvious error before you are outed

In fairness, Mike, I think the poster you are referring to repeatedly stated that there would be no catering on long-distance broad-gauge VLos.
potatoinmymouth

However PIMM, the union is not being specific in saying exclusively V'Locity's for the NE, it's saying:

The first option for the buffets in the new Vlocity trains was sitting at nine meters long. V/Line then came back offering two metres by two metres, so the buffet working party committee set up a risk assessment on the old buffets that are currently in the n-sets.
The risk assessment showed there was hardly enough room in the current buffets, so V/Line therefore came back and offered four metres long, which with the correct design and layout of the new buffets should work out well when the new buffets are finalised.


Which are slated to be introduced on ALL V/Line long distance services.
Imagine a 9 meter buffet module in a V'Locity...it would have to resemble the 'mini-buffet's' that used to operate on the Albury Express.
Mike.
  NimbleJack Station Master

Buffet modules will not be fitted to broad-gauge VLocity sets. Nothing has changed since I made that statement.

Maybe, though, if we're very lucky, we might end up with shapely stewardesses wheeling sandwich trolleys.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Buffet modules will not be fitted to broad-gauge VLocity sets. Nothing has changed since I made that statement.

Maybe, though, if we're very lucky, we might end up with shapely stewardesses wheeling sandwich trolleys.
NimbleJack

Personally I have no interest in 'shapely stewardesses' and the union is NOT being specific about buffet modules for the NE, particularly as the NE is not V/Line's longest route.

In any event the shapely stewardesses will need to have a location from within the train to load the trolley with the refresh and presumably refrigeration for cool drinks and also a place to make the coffee which, in keeping with today's coffee standards will NOT be instant.

Mike.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Buffet modules will not be fitted to broad-gauge VLocity sets. Nothing has changed since I made that statement.

Maybe, though, if we're very lucky, we might end up with shapely stewardesses wheeling sandwich trolleys.
NimbleJack
Don t be so sure the Warrnambool line is set to go to Inter City type V/Locity sets after upgrade to signalling, lx protection and a second remote controlled loop at Boorcan with 3 hour trip to Melbourne indicated .  (160 kmh to Geelong then 130 kmh to Warrnmabool.) So thelikelihood is Albury gets them first on sg bogies, and then progressively in this order  Warrnambool, Bairnsdale and Swan Hill will get same Inter City  VL sets with catering but on broad gauge bogies.

Albury & Warrnmabool line works in hand to allow operation of V/Locities .
Already running to Bairnsdale, but increased speed to 130kmh Traralgon - Sale - Bairnsdale with track class upgrade.
Bendigo - Swan Hill medium term requiring lx protection upgarde, and upgrade of track class to Class - 2 .

The existing  Commuter type VL sets run  Geelong, Ballarat, Ararat, Maryborough, Bendigo, Echuca, Seymour & Shepparton.
The trade off for Shepp is  8 trains daily each way as VL with potential  2 hour travel time .
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
shapely stewardesses
NimbleJack
This is perhaps not the term that is used these days to describe the attendants...
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
Personally I have no interest in 'shapely stewardesses' and the union is NOT being specific about buffet modules for the NE, particularly as the NE is not V/Line's longest route.

Mike.
The Vinelander
I suppose you have, Mike but speak for yourself, I'd certainly entertain the idea......

And james, in the  days of Stick Figure models, I reckon there's still a need for ' Plus Size or Full Figure ' ladies, as they seem to be referred too, just to keep things real, perhaps even a ' Buxom Wench ' now there's something I could really roll with..........Razz

BigShunter.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Personally I have no interest in 'shapely stewardesses' and the union is NOT being specific about buffet modules for the NE, particularly as the NE is not V/Line's longest route.

Mike.
I suppose you have, Mike but speak for yourself, I'd certainly entertain the idea......

And james, in the  days of Stick Figure models, I reckon there's still a need for ' Plus Size or Full Figure ' ladies, as they seem to be referred too, just to keep things real, perhaps even a ' Buxom Wench ' now there's something I could really roll with..........Razz

BigShunter.
BigShunter

Now things have gone completely out of control...a little something for 'both' teams.



https://youtu.be/Vy5LAchijS4

Mike.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

If the Xplorer has a buffet then what is the difficulty in the vlocity having a buffet?
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

If the Xplorer has a buffet then what is the difficulty in the vlocity having a buffet?
simstrain

For once sims I’ll agree the grass is greener in NSW! There is no problem with the platform, just a lack of political will. Even bearing in mind that the body shell is a total redesign of the Endeavour.
  NimbleJack Station Master

If the Xplorer has a buffet then what is the difficulty in the vlocity having a buffet?
simstrain

  • Irregular set length, which complicates infrastructure design
  • Irregular set composition, which reduces operational flexibility
  • High installation costs
  • High operational losses
  • Relatively short journey times compared with NSW services

Standard-gauge VLocity sets will end up with buffet modules as they are destined to operate on a distinct network with no possibility of being switched out at short notice to different lines. This network is also wholly immune to notions of opportunity cost or economic reason.

Your best bet for broad-gauge VLocitys is either vending machines or ambulant catering, though I wouldn't hold my breath.

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