Rail Manufacturing in Australia, good or bad ?

 
Topic moved from News by dthead on 10 May 2019 09:23
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Only the qld rolling stock is a stuff up.

Widening the loading gauge in the blue mountains will bring it inline with the rest of the sydney trains loading gauge.

The light rails problems have nothing at all to do with where the rolling stock was made. It is purely to do with all the crap that was underneath sydney's streets, poor planning and issues with ausgrid who have been causing major headaches with this project from day one.

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  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
It would be good to ensure more manufacturing for rail was Australian based as is the case I think in Victoria where trains are manufactured.  Queensland still produces rolling stock I believe?
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
It may be great news...but is it NECESSARY TO SHOUT the news out to us Question

Mike.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Strange how VLocity manufacturing in Victoria had no issues like this:

– NSW’s $2 billion Intercity Fleet ordered from South Korea but was too wide to fit through tunnels in the Blue Mountains.

It doesn't matter how its spun Simstrain...it's still spin. ..Smile

Mike.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Strange how VLocity manufacturing in Victoria had no issues like this:

– NSW’s $2 billion Intercity Fleet ordered from South Korea but was too wide to fit through tunnels in the Blue Mountains.

It doesn't matter how its spun Simstrain...it's still spin. ..Smile

Mike.
The Vinelander
cough cough *Bendigo Line* Cough Cough
  jakar Assistant Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Strange how VLocity manufacturing in Victoria had no issues like this:

– NSW’s $2 billion Intercity Fleet ordered from South Korea but was too wide to fit through tunnels in the Blue Mountains.

It doesn't matter how its spun Simstrain...it's still spin. ..Smile

Mike.
cough cough *Bendigo Line* Cough Cough
Dangersdan707
Your point DD? A Vlocity is skinnier than a Sprinter and fit just fine on the Bendigo line, even if it was double track.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Strange how VLocity manufacturing in Victoria had no issues like this:

– NSW’s $2 billion Intercity Fleet ordered from South Korea but was too wide to fit through tunnels in the Blue Mountains.

It doesn't matter how its spun Simstrain...it's still spin. ..Smile

Mike.
cough cough *Bendigo Line* Cough Cough
Your point DD? A Vlocity is skinnier than a Sprinter and fit just fine on the Bendigo line, even if it was double track.
jakar


Shhh You'll awaken the bureaucrats. (Remember the Singling Excuse)
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Strange how VLocity manufacturing in Victoria had no issues like this:

– NSW’s $2 billion Intercity Fleet ordered from South Korea but was too wide to fit through tunnels in the Blue Mountains.

It doesn't matter how its spun Simstrain...it's still spin. ..Smile

Mike.
The Vinelander

It isn't a stuff up. The work on the blue mountains brings it in to line with the rest of the network. One train that does all intercity services and can handle the extra capacity requirements that is required. The blue mountains hasn't been able to handle any wide body trains pass springwood. These upgrades remove this limitation.

The new LR vehicles on the new sydney network have had no issues and have been testing for some time on the limited amount of track available. The problem again has come down to the construction and all the stuff that was found and which delayed work and not where the units were made as suggested.
  Ethan1395 Junior Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
It isn't a stuff up. The work on the blue mountains brings it in to line with the rest of the network. One train that does all intercity services and can handle the extra capacity requirements that is required. The blue mountains hasn't been able to handle any wide body trains pass springwood. These upgrades remove this limitation.
simstrain
To be fair, the government doesn't do enough to explain to the public about the blue mountains train width issue.
I saw a video of Andrew Constance going though the mock-up of the new train where he accused the Blue Mountains MP of not wanting the new trains, where all the Blue Mountains MP was concerned about was 'fat trains that don't fit the tracks' (and also 'rigid uncomfortable seating for that matter', can't judge there until the trains arrive).

Can't blame anyone for thinking the NIF and the Blue Mountains is a stuff up when the government hasn't done enough to explain why the trains are wide as they are, only railfans know why it is.

Still, even if the trains fit, if the federal opposition is pledging strengthen local rail manufacturing, then that's great, if it's true, when anything like this is said this close to an election, you can take it with a train of salt. Even if the trains fit the loading gauge and run flawlessly, our multicultural public transport fleet is an issue:

-Suburban trains: China
-Metro trains: India
-Intercity trains: South Korea
-Regional trains: Spain
-Light Rail Vehicles: France
-B-Line Buses: Germany

...yet we can't raise the Newstart Allowance.

Find me some politics who will stop casualisation of jobs, create more jobs, make it easier to find and get jobs, raise the newstart allowance, and construct public transport projects in places like Newcastle,
I'm sure they will all promise that now, but in two weeks, nothing.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Rail manufacturing is gone in nsw and none of the other facilities around the country are capable of building double decks. The alstom X05's are miles better then anything Victoria could produce and why waste time setting up a place in NSW to build it when it can be built in France on their existing production lines and shipped here at significantly less cost. More permanent jobs are created in maintenance for the life of the LRV's then there is for construction and since there is no export market for Australian made rolling stock the production lines would just shut down and jobs lost as production stopped.

With the XPT replacement no one aside from the CAF consortium had anything modern and economical for the XPT replacement. The 2 losing parties where just building newer versions of the vlocity theme and the new regional train will be a significantly better product then the vlocity for economy, efficiency and comfort. Electric propulsion means no transmission whine on acceleration for a quieter ride.

NSW for example has the lowest unemployment rate in the country. Most manufacturing left NSW long ago and so the state and specifically Sydney has hopped on the import bandwagon. Not buying Australian isn't as bad of a thing to us in Sydney as it is to people from other states. When all the automotive manufacturing left Sydney most of the import brand moved in creating warehousing in Sydney which replaced those manufacturing jobs.

In NSW if you want business you have to compete for it and not just expect it because your an Australian company.
  Ethan1395 Junior Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
NSW for example has the lowest unemployment rate in the country.
simstrain
Statistics are not reliable, people working 1 hour a week are classed as employed, and Australia has one of the highest rates of insecure (casual) 'employment' in the world.
Even then, NSW may appear to have the highest employment rate but that's only because it has the highest population, once you leave Sydney, the true unemployment crisis is revealed, go to Newcastle, the former home of manufacturing, and now one of the hardest places in Australia to find work.

since there is no export market for Australian made rolling stock the production lines would just shut down and jobs lost as production stopped.
simstrain
I don't see why not, once upon a time, we were the first nation to develop double deck power cars, and now we can't develop anything worth exporting?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

There has never been an export market for Australian rolling stock. If you want to buy rolling stock there was europe, japan or the US. Australia built our own stuff because nations like china, india, south korea weren't significantly developed in the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's and so we made the stuff ourselves. The waratah's and NIFS are designed in Australia but built overseas due to costs in 2019.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Rail manufacturing is gone in nsw and none of the other facilities around the country are capable of building double decks. The alstom X05's are miles better then anything Victoria could produce and why waste time setting up a place in NSW to build it when it can be built in France on their existing production lines and shipped here at significantly less cost. More permanent jobs are created in maintenance for the life of the LRV's then there is for construction and since there is no export market for Australian made rolling stock the production lines would just shut down and jobs lost as production stopped.

With the XPT replacement no one aside from the CAF consortium had anything modern and economical for the XPT replacement. The 2 losing parties where just building newer versions of the vlocity theme and the new regional train will be a significantly better product then the vlocity for economy, efficiency and comfort. Electric propulsion means no transmission whine on acceleration for a quieter ride.

NSW for example has the lowest unemployment rate in the country. Most manufacturing left NSW long ago and so the state and specifically Sydney has hopped on the import bandwagon. Not buying Australian isn't as bad of a thing to us in Sydney as it is to people from other states. When all the automotive manufacturing left Sydney most of the import brand moved in creating warehousing in Sydney which replaced those manufacturing jobs.

In NSW if you want business you have to compete for it and not just expect it because your an Australian company.
simstrain
For ease of transport and servicing the DD's should ideally be made near the Greater Sydney OH network. This is not bound by the Suburban network.

Why should Sydney make their own trains? Why not. Most of the older stuff was far less troublesome than what has been imported in recent years. the number of trains now, fleet to be replaced in Sydney means it would be an almost if not a continuous production line and in between mid life upgrades.  

Based on current DD fleet size and 40 year operating life, Sydney needs on average 45 new cars per year. Basically one a week not counting accidents. That's an economic production scale.

The govt can follow similar process as other. Provide the site, lease to supplier and provide a 10 year contract for supply of future trains and major upgrades of existing fleet.

The only country in the world with higher salaries for lower income jobs than Australia is France. So it shouldn't be cheaper to build them there and if it, then there needs to be an enquirer to work out why.

NSW may have low unemployment for now, but you would be a fool to think this won't ever change and if you still don't believe it then you are either too young or have short memory. There is also the knock on effect to other industries, some of which are struggling with ongoing exporting of various sectors of industry.

The XPT replacement order can be forgiven, but also remember it was outsourced OS, not built locally under license (I think how the XPT was built) as there is no one here to build it.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
There has never been an export market for Australian rolling stock. If you want to buy rolling stock there was europe, japan or the US. Australia built our own stuff because nations like china, india, south korea weren't significantly developed in the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's and so we made the stuff ourselves. The Waratah's and NIFS are designed in Australia but built overseas due to costs in 2019.
simstrain
Australian rolling stock manufacturing has always been built to license if not local design. Nothing wrong with that and in many ways how some of your examples above are also built.

Like most things, the number of different designs in the world have significantly reduced because its cheaper to buy someone elses than design your own, however for the Sydney DD's there is no body else design to use, which is why they are so expensive and the Metro came about. However the electronics, smarts, traction systems etc will always be imported as they were in the past.


EDIT: Ad yes we did sort export to a degree, export from one state to another.
- WA until recently has only used Qld designed and built electric suburban rolling stock.
- SA 3000/3100 is based on Melbourne design
- Many of the locos around the country were made in one state and shipped to another.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The waratahs have actually been fine RTT. It has been the older trains that have been breaking down in recent times such as the C and K sets. I'm under no illusion that unemployment rates won't change in the future but what makes you think that manufacturing in Australia would solve it even if unemployment rates went up. Manufacturing was only viable with the tariffs we used to have and in this global and free trade market we can not compete or else we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Most of the early rolling stock in Australia was imported from britain or the US. Until after WW2 we had very little manufacturing capability and imported navy ships, cars, trains and all sorts of other equipment. It is what it is and nothing can stop it unless someone in Australia can actually innovate.

The french actually created this and previous light rail designs. The X05's are a production tram that alstom will be making thousands of over the next couple of years and we haven't made LRV's in NSW since the R1 class.
  jakar Assistant Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
none of the other facilities around the country are capable of building double decks.    
Simstrain
Citation?
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Citation?
jakar

1. Train, Sims. “Bombardier have never built a double deck train, ever.” Why NSW is better than Victoria at everything. Sydney: Railpage Publishing, 2019.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
The waratahs have actually been fine RTT. It has been the older trains that have been breaking down in recent times such as the C and K sets. I'm under no illusion that unemployment rates won't change in the future but what makes you think that manufacturing in Australia would solve it even if unemployment rates went up. Manufacturing was only viable with the tariffs we used to have and in this global and free trade market we can not compete or else we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Most of the early rolling stock in Australia was imported from britain or the US. Until after WW2 we had very little manufacturing capability and imported navy ships, cars, trains and all sorts of other equipment. It is what it is and nothing can stop it unless someone in Australia can actually innovate.

The french actually created this and previous light rail designs. The X05's are a production tram that alstom will be making thousands of over the next couple of years and we haven't made LRV's in NSW since the R1 class.
simstrain
"Bangs head against wall"
I refereed to the project and commissioning issues of the M and A sets, not 40+ year old trains breaking down.

Manufacturing is part of the pie, not the only pie. If France can make trains economically without a trade barrier, then Australia can.

The tram fleets are too small to worry about, please focus on what I raised, the very large Sydney DD fleet and you can also add the Melbourne SD fleet and the Qld/WA NG fleet to that.
  ANR Assistant Commissioner

The horse bolted a long time ago. Too bad Gladys went looking for train sets in South Korea and Spain. Like we didn't have steel production, engineers and fabrication know-how, in Australia.

It could have been Recreated from the ashes in Geelong, Broadmeadows, Elizabeth etc. But this appears to be beyond the imagination of our politicians who prefer to keep foreigners employed ahead of the people they are supposed to represent. FWIW, we could have manufactured a much better interurban platform.

I am very proud each time that I see a loco, an IP train, an XPT or XPL and VSet etc, even if anything borrows the design from overseas, it is built here.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: North Haverbrook; where the monorail is king!
There has never been an export market for Australian rolling stock. If you want to buy rolling stock there was europe, japan or the US. Australia built our own stuff because nations like china, india, south korea weren't significantly developed in the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's and so we made the stuff ourselves. The Waratah's and NIFS are designed in Australia but built overseas due to costs in 2019.
Australian rolling stock manufacturing has always been built to license if not local design. Nothing wrong with that and in many ways how some of your examples above are also built.

Like most things, the number of different designs in the world have significantly reduced because its cheaper to buy someone elses than design your own, however for the Sydney DD's there is no body else design to use, which is why they are so expensive and the Metro came about. However the electronics, smarts, traction systems etc will always be imported as they were in the past.


EDIT: Ad yes we did sort export to a degree, export from one state to another.
- WA until recently has only used Qld designed and built electric suburban rolling stock.
- SA 3000/3100 is based on Melbourne design
- Many of the locos around the country were made in one state and shipped to another.
RTT_Rules
I take it that you aren't familiar with the history of Comeng then. They designed and built 70 Light Rail Vehicles for Hong Kong in the late 1980s, exported diesel railcars to India and designed bilevel carriages for the US Long Island Railroad (built abroad however). And they're still around today to an extent (as Bombardier)

The reason NSW rollingstock is built overseas is laziness. NSW has had great opportunities to retain a competitive domestic rail manufacturing sector and successive small-minded State & Federal governments have blown it. Unfortunately the professional & managerial classes at the heavy engineering firms also have a great deal of blame to be apportioned to them in this mess. Goninan & Downer never liked building stuff domestically because it involved dealing with Australian workers. So the professional staff (engineers and the like) make the case to their shareholders and to Governments that by their calculations if they build (for example) the Australian-designed Waratah over in China they can save this much money per set and so on. Then the QC costs of building in China eat into those savings (as they found out with the Waratahs).

Manufacturing is part of the pie, not the only pie. If France can make trains economically without a trade barrier, then Australia can.
RTT_Rules
France has an industrial policy. Spain has an industrial policy. China has an industrial policy. South Korea has an industrial policy. Australia has a 'no-industry' policy (courtesy of Hawkie, Howard and Hockey).

As for trams: The Melbourne E-Class tram order is on the same order of magnitude as NSW's New Intercity Fleet program. Made in Melbourne. Adapted from a global platform with an increasing amount of 'Melbournisation' design work to meet our needs. We didn't need to come up with excuses for buying French trains running on Spanish rails, because we did it properly over here instead.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
I take it that you aren't familiar with the history of Comeng then. They designed and built 70 Light Rail Vehicles for Hong Kong in the late 1980s, exported diesel railcars to India and designed bilevel carriages for the US Long Island Railroad (built abroad however). And they're still around today to an extent (as Bombardier)

The reason NSW rollingstock is built overseas is laziness. NSW has had great opportunities to retain a competitive domestic rail manufacturing sector and successive small-minded State & Federal governments have blown it. Unfortunately the professional & managerial classes at the heavy engineering firms also have a great deal of blame to be apportioned to them in this mess. Goninan & Downer never liked building stuff domestically because it involved dealing with Australian workers. So the professional staff (engineers and the like) make the case to their shareholders and to Governments that by their calculations if they build (for example) the Australian-designed Waratah over in China they can save this much money per set and so on. Then the QC costs of building in China eat into those savings (as they found out with the Waratahs).

Manufacturing is part of the pie, not the only pie. If France can make trains economically without a trade barrier, then Australia can.
France has an industrial policy. Spain has an industrial policy. China has an industrial policy. South Korea has an industrial policy. Australia has a 'no-industry' policy (courtesy of Hawkie, Howard and Hockey).

As for trams: The Melbourne E-Class tram order is on the same order of magnitude as NSW's New Intercity Fleet program. Made in Melbourne. Adapted from a global platform with an increasing amount of 'Melbournisation' design work to meet our needs. We didn't need to come up with excuses for buying French trains running on Spanish rails, because we did it properly over here instead.
LancedDendrite
No I didn't know, thanks for the heads up!

Also reminded me, I once saw NG stock made in Qld being exported out of Gladstone, I think they went to Malaysia.

You are right on the industry policy, although not something that can be dissolved in 2 years, its a very longterm approach.
  Sulla1 Chief Commissioner

I take it that you aren't familiar with the history of Comeng then. They designed and built 70 Light Rail Vehicles for Hong Kong in the late 1980s, exported diesel railcars to India and designed bilevel carriages for the US Long Island Railroad (built abroad however). And they're still around today to an extent (as Bombardier)

The reason NSW rollingstock is built overseas is laziness. NSW has had great opportunities to retain a competitive domestic rail manufacturing sector and successive small-minded State & Federal governments have blown it. Unfortunately the professional & managerial classes at the heavy engineering firms also have a great deal of blame to be apportioned to them in this mess. Goninan & Downer never liked building stuff domestically because it involved dealing with Australian workers. So the professional staff (engineers and the like) make the case to their shareholders and to Governments that by their calculations if they build (for example) the Australian-designed Waratah over in China they can save this much money per set and so on. Then the QC costs of building in China eat into those savings (as they found out with the Waratahs).

Manufacturing is part of the pie, not the only pie. If France can make trains economically without a trade barrier, then Australia can.
France has an industrial policy. Spain has an industrial policy. China has an industrial policy. South Korea has an industrial policy. Australia has a 'no-industry' policy (courtesy of Hawkie, Howard and Hockey).

As for trams: The Melbourne E-Class tram order is on the same order of magnitude as NSW's New Intercity Fleet program. Made in Melbourne. Adapted from a global platform with an increasing amount of 'Melbournisation' design work to meet our needs. We didn't need to come up with excuses for buying French trains running on Spanish rails, because we did it properly over here instead.
No I didn't know, thanks for the heads up!

Also reminded me, I once saw NG stock made in Qld being exported out of Gladstone, I think they went to Malaysia.

You are right on the industry policy, although not something that can be dissolved in 2 years, its a very longterm approach.
RTT_Rules

Downer/EDI Maryborough built 90 light rail vehicles for the Kuala Lumper's Metro 2 & 3 lines in the early 1990s.
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
FEDERAL OPPOSITION PLEDGES TO STRENGTHEN RAIL MANUFACTURING
moved to the loco forums and renamed it as we quickly left the electionering and onto a interesting discussion.
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
FEDERAL OPPOSITION PLEDGES TO STRENGTHEN RAIL MANUFACTURING
simstrain
moved to the loco forums and renamed it as we quickly left the electionering and onto a interesting discussion.

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