Metro raises more problems than solutions for public transport

 
Topic moved from News by dthead on 31 Mar 2019 20:19
  Transtopic Assistant Commissioner

Yes, Liverpool will have a significant impact

The Western Metro will also pull many bodies of the Western services, although I suspect many won't have a choice as the western line trains are curtailed slightly to make room for others.

Schofields, less so as the numbers are clearly less. Assume that most using would be from Blacktown to Richmond headed to the north side, potentially even as far as North Sydney, the Metro will be faster and yes getting on from the start they get a seat. As the Y-link service connects would connect with the Metro, maybe others further south of Bankstown may seen this as a better route to the North side, but numbers obviously small.

It just seems the govt, past and present seem to have zero interest in connecting the north side of the network with the west, ie EPRL and now Metro to Schofields.
RTT_Rules
Metro West won't pull that many bodies off T1 Western services headed for the CBD, unless their destinations are outside of the CBD, perhaps with the exception of Wynyard.  Even then, the difference in time is measured in just minutes, so if you already have a seat, why would you bother?  I'm sure most commuters won't measure the time difference down to the last minute, when there are other considerations, such as the inconvenience of having to interchange, with no guarantee that you'll get a seat, when you already have one direct to your destination, even if it's marginally longer.  More Western Line passengers get off at Parramatta than get on, so if you are already on the train, then you have more chance of picking up a seat than if you interchanged to the metro.   There's still no confirmation of how the interchange strategy will actually work, having regard to the location of the Parramatta metro station in particular.  They still haven't thought it through.

It would be faster from Blacktown to North Sydney or even Chatswood for that matter via T1 than having to backtrack to Schofields to catch the metro (assuming its extension to the CBD).  Why bother?  

I agree that governments of both persuasions have been negligent in planning for connecting Northern Sydney with Western Sydney, by both road and rail.  The PERL should have been completed as part of the original Parramatta to Chatswood Rail Link and it was the lack of foresight on the part of then Transport Minister Michael Costa that prevented it from happening.  Had it been completed, then the North West metro may not have confiscated the Epping to Chatswood Rail Link for metro conversion and instead followed a completely separate path to the CBD, without compromising existing Sydney Trains' services.

With regard to road connections between the regions, the Eastwood County Road corridor, which has been reserved for close to 70 years, has been neglected, when it would provide a high standard  arterial road link between Macquarie Park and Parramatta via Kissing Point Rd and Bankstown via Silverwater Rd.

Sponsored advertisement

  djf01 Chief Commissioner

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, addressing congestion on the T1 Western Line can't be resolved my Metro West alone.  While Metro West will provide more capacity from Parramatta and Westmead, it won't allow for additional services to meet demand on T1 west of Parramatta and Westmead where the greatest overcrowding occurs.  That's the real issue.
Transtopic

To me, the real issue runs deeper than that.

WTF are we doing Western Metro in the first place?

To me it illustrates all too clearly just how dog wagging goes on NSW rail (indeed all) transport planning, and why we end up with such shiphouse results.

As with all engineering problems, it's always worth asking "what problem are we solving here?"

In the case of the Western Metro there is only one answer: to increase the value of waterfront property redevelopments at "the bays" precinct and Homebush Bay.  

In terms of lacking suitable local public infrastructure (and that also means roads, water sewerage, schools, hospitals, emergency services and everything else - *including* public transport) there are very few sites in greater Sydney *worse* than these two.  But they do have two redeeming features:
  • They are owned by the State Government, and as such have "motivated sellers" and hence can be acquired by developers a below a true fair market value
  • They have a water frontage !!!

These two items alone do not justify $20b of public money.  In fact they do not justify spending any public money at all.  If developer levies are not enough to fund appropriate additional infrastructure then the projects aren't really viable at all, and the sites should be left in public hands and turned into something genuinely useful, like parks.

Everything else about the Western Metro is just BS, an attempt to justify spectacularly stupid infrastructure with the consequences of equally stupid underfunding of existing infrastructure.

IMHO, like the NWRL project, the Western Metro project would be better for everyone if it were built as Heavy Rail, with at most 6 "new" stations: Parramatta, Silverwater, Olympic Park, Five Dock (maybe), "The Bays" and Sydney City (somewhere with reasonable/sensible pedestrian access to Town Hall, St James, Martin Place, Wynyard & by extension Barangaroo).  All with 240m (ie 12 car) platforms.  Platform screens for A/B Sets.

Arguably this would be cheaper (less stations), provide a better service (ie faster and more frequent) than the Western Metro, and would thus further increase the value to the drivers of the project (ie The Bays & Olympic Park).  It would solve the capacity, run-time and issues of both the Western Line *and* the rest of the HR network whole.

But in my view - even though it would be a much better spend of taxpayers money that the Western Metro (by a factor of at least 3)  - it's still a ridiculously huge waste of money.

Olympic Park is *already* served by Heavy Rail, with a station that won a host of design awards no less.  (It's just not properly connected to a serviceable network.)

The Bays precinct was not only once serviced by heavy rail, for the most part the rails there still exist!  

IMO the correct policy should be:
  • Another HR pth into the city, preferably (for cost reasons) starting 2km from Central, not 30+km from Parramatta.  It doesn't really matter where, but this is the core of the problem with the current HR network and changing the train format won't fix this.
  • Branch the Paramatta-Carlinford light rail through the Silverwater industrial/residential redevelopment area terminating at Olympic Park.
  • Amplify Flemington to Homebush to allow Olympic Park (and Pipita) to be the terminus of what is currently the Inner West line.
  • A branch off the Dulwich Hill Light rail through "The Bays" precinct to a new ferry port at the eastern end of White Bay.

(Perhaps I should add upgrading the Western Line too allow 120kph average speed running from Parramatta to Central allowing a 16min traverse time from Parra to Town Hall.)

This would provide the same benefits - if not more - to the drivers of the Western Metro project: the two property redevelopment sites.

It would largely address the efficiency issues of the HR network.

Would cost less than 20% of the Western Metro project (yet deliver 200%+ to benefits).
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Metro West won't pull that many bodies off T1 Western services headed for the CBD, unless their destinations are outside of the CBD, perhaps with the exception of Wynyard.  Even then, the difference in time is measured in just minutes, so if you already have a seat, why would you bother?  I'm sure most commuters won't measure the time difference down to the last minute, when there are other considerations, such as the inconvenience of having to interchange, with no guarantee that you'll get a seat, when you already have one direct to your destination, even if it's marginally longer.  More Western Line passengers get off at Parramatta than get on, so if you are already on the train, then you have more chance of picking up a seat than if you interchanged to the metro.   There's still no confirmation of how the interchange strategy will actually work, having regard to the location of the Parramatta metro station in particular.  They still haven't thought it through.

It would be faster from Blacktown to North Sydney or even Chatswood for that matter via T1 than having to backtrack to Schofields to catch the metro (assuming its extension to the CBD).  Why bother?  

I agree that governments of both persuasions have been negligent in planning for connecting Northern Sydney with Western Sydney, by both road and rail.  The PERL should have been completed as part of the original Parramatta to Chatswood Rail Link and it was the lack of foresight on the part of then Transport Minister Michael Costa that prevented it from happening.  Had it been completed, then the North West metro may not have confiscated the Epping to Chatswood Rail Link for metro conversion and instead followed a completely separate path to the CBD, without compromising existing Sydney Trains' services.

With regard to road connections between the regions, the Eastwood County Road corridor, which has been reserved for close to 70 years, has been neglected, when it would provide a high standard  arterial road link between Macquarie Park and Parramatta via Kissing Point Rd and Bankstown via Silverwater Rd.
Transtopic
I suspect T1 expresses as we know it will be few and far between post Western Metro.

Yep, I agree, had the CPRL been built as originally planned, it would be the NW and inner NW Metro being built now with CPRL trains terminating on the North Shore line. Its ironic that the ECRL project which was designed to use the spare capacity on the bridge actually was a victim of its own success and now has to be pushed off the bridge to allow for growth of the NSL.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

RTT you are wrong on the western expresses. Metro west provides an option for anybody getting on a train at parramatta or westmead. It will not promote an interchange when the metro stations will not actually be anywhere near the existing stations. Parramatta metro station is looking likely to be connected to the Light rail on Macquarie street and the westmead station is likely to be somewhere in the vicinity of the t-way stop outside westmead hospital. Neither are really viable to promote interchange from T1 to MW. The MW is also likely to expand to blacktown in the future.

The metro is the way forward DJF because the current system is just old, outdated and too interconnected. The metro provides the accessibility for the disabled as well as the extra safety and security from the Platform doors. The future plan is to reduce the function of the existing system within Sydney and use it as corridors for intercity, outer suburban and freight. This does not mean it will close down the existing system but just reduce it's use and so when the system fails the city will no longer collapse in to transit hell.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
RTT you are wrong on the western expresses. Metro west provides an option for anybody getting on a train at parramatta or westmead. It will not promote an interchange when the metro stations will not actually be anywhere near the existing stations. Parramatta metro station is looking likely to be connected to the Light rail on Macquarie street and the westmead station is likely to be somewhere in the vicinity of the t-way stop outside westmead hospital. Neither are really viable to promote interchange from T1 to MW. The MW is also likely to expand to blacktown in the future.

The metro is the way forward DJF because the current system is just old, outdated and too interconnected. The metro provides the accessibility for the disabled as well as the extra safety and security from the Platform doors. The future plan is to reduce the function of the existing system within Sydney and use it as corridors for intercity, outer suburban and freight. This does not mean it will close down the existing system but just reduce it's use and so when the system fails the city will no longer collapse in to transit hell.
simstrain
Nope
They said either Para and Westmead will be an interchange station, likely later.

Building the Western Metro has to take bodies off the T1 to allow for growth on other services including more stopper services. If they do not do this then the Metro is 9/10 useless for anything other than intermediate stations and leaving no improvement on the western corridor waiting for Blacktown extension will not happen as it will be written off as a failure.

The rest, of course!
  Ethan1395 Junior Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
The metro northwest should have not only been extended to Schofields (hopefully possible in future), but all the way up the Richmond Line, this could have taken all Richmond services off of the T1 completely, and more frequent Cumberland Line services could have made up for the lack of Richmond services serving Marayong, Quakers Hill, and Schofields.

Also, instead of taking over the Bankstown Line, why not build a complete new line though Ramsgate to Miranda? opening up new areas to rail services, and reducing crowding on the T4 Illawarra Line?
Already, one of my criticisms of the Metro is that between Chastwood to the city, it runs parallel to the North Shore Line instead of opening up new areas to rail services.

---

Instead of the highly controversial 100% longitudinal seating of the metro rolling stock, I was thinking, why couldn't they just have 2x2 seating with a wider aisle, this way, there would still be plenty of floorspace to reduce dwell times, but more comfortable seating, and more seats per hour with the more frequent services. Hopefully it would not be too difficult to refit this in future.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
The metro northwest should have not only been extended to Schofields (hopefully possible in future), but all the way up the Richmond Line, this could have taken all Richmond services off of the T1 completely, and more frequent Cumberland Line services could have made up for the lack of Richmond services serving Marayong, Quakers Hill, and Schofields.

Also, instead of taking over the Bankstown Line, why not build a complete new line though Ramsgate to Miranda? opening up new areas to rail services, and reducing crowding on the T4 Illawarra Line?
Already, one of my criticisms of the Metro is that between Chastwood to the city, it runs parallel to the North Shore Line instead of opening up new areas to rail services.

---

Instead of the highly controversial 100% longitudinal seating of the metro rolling stock, I was thinking, why couldn't they just have 2x2 seating with a wider aisle, this way, there would still be plenty of floorspace to reduce dwell times, but more comfortable seating, and more seats per hour with the more frequent services. Hopefully it would not be too difficult to refit this in future.
Ethan1395
Unlikely to make a difference.

If you connect Scohfields and 90% of the people headed to east of Granville change trains, you reduce the frequency south of Schofields, but if only 10% get off you don't.

Re: Miranda, agree, but when the Bankstown Metro option was first proposed they would not have had the money, they didn't know they could do it back to back and even now doing so would compromise the Western Metro or at least the money used on Western Metro OR DD Western line upgrade.

Agree on the parrallel NSL, but the bridge needs a 2nd crossing NW line or not, maybe the Inner NW Metro to Epping and NW option may have helped both the NSL and Northern line capacity to some degree.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

The metro is the way forward DJF because the current system is just old, outdated and too interconnected. The metro provides ...
simstrain

And I would argue Metro is not the way forward for precisely the same reasons.

At best, Metro is sweeping the need to stay current under the carpet.  But IMHO the truth is METRO is *another* change - for changes sake - in form factor.  This will ultimately just add to the accumulation of a century of similar such changes, nothing but a dead weight on rail (indeed all) transport in NSW.
  Transtopic Assistant Commissioner

I suspect T1 expresses as we know it will be few and far between post Western Metro.

Yep, I agree, had the CPRL been built as originally planned, it would be the NW and inner NW Metro being built now with CPRL trains terminating on the North Shore line. Its ironic that the ECRL project which was designed to use the spare capacity on the bridge actually was a victim of its own success and now has to be pushed off the bridge to allow for growth of the NSL.
RTT_Rules
It's just not logical to increase services on the Outer Western Line to meet demand and then have passengers interchange to the metro to complete their journeys towards the CBD.  Apart from being hugely unpopular, it's not practicable to turn trains around at Parramatta or Westmead while maintaining a high frequency for through services.  What should happen is to increase the number of paths through track amplification from Parramatta to the CBD to allow these extra services from the west to continue through to the CBD, without the need to interchange to Metro West.

To the best of my recollection, the original Parramatta to Chatswood Rail Link, truncated from Epping to Chatswood, was designed to ease congestion on the Inner West corridor, by diverting passengers from Hornsby on the Northern Line and from the west bound for North Shore destinations, instead of travelling through the CBD.  As it would have been part of the HR network, it would not require interchange to the North Shore Line, but trains would continue through to the CBD via the harbour bridge.  Future demand was to be met by constructing the second harbour rail crossing as part of the existing HR network.  How much simpler things might have been with one unified network.
  Transtopic Assistant Commissioner

RTT you are wrong on the western expresses. Metro west provides an option for anybody getting on a train at parramatta or westmead. It will not promote an interchange when the metro stations will not actually be anywhere near the existing stations. Parramatta metro station is looking likely to be connected to the Light rail on Macquarie street and the westmead station is likely to be somewhere in the vicinity of the t-way stop outside westmead hospital. Neither are really viable to promote interchange from T1 to MW. The MW is also likely to expand to blacktown in the future.

The metro is the way forward DJF because the current system is just old, outdated and too interconnected. The metro provides the accessibility for the disabled as well as the extra safety and security from the Platform doors. The future plan is to reduce the function of the existing system within Sydney and use it as corridors for intercity, outer suburban and freight. This does not mean it will close down the existing system but just reduce it's use and so when the system fails the city will no longer collapse in to transit hell.
simstrain
I agree that Metro West won't promote much interchange for passengers west of Parramatta/Westmead.  It will depend on their destination if it's not direct to the CBD.  There's still no definitive formal announcement of where the Parramatta and Westmead metro stations will be located, although it has been suggested that the Westmead Station will be under the existing surface station.  It's unlikely that Metro West will be extended to Blacktown, as it's already been mooted that it will extend in a different direction to Badgerys Creek Airport.

You're being disingenuous in painting the existing HR network as being "old, outdated and too interconnected".  What shortcomings it may have are a direct result of the lack of investment in upgrading and expanding the network under both Liberal and Labor governments.  The current government in particular has dropped the ball in not responding to the massive increase in patronage on the existing system, while they have been pre-occupied with their focus on the metro expansion.  It's now coming home to bite them.  

You have absolutely no justification for suggesting that "the future plan is to reduce the function of the existing system within Sydney and use its corridors for intercity, outer suburban and freight".   That's totally absurd and the cost in replacing all inner city lines with metro would be prohibitive and unwarranted.  There's a huge capital investment in place, built up over a century and a half and you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.  If you're starting with a clean sheet, without a legacy rail network, then that's an entirely different matter.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
I suspect T1 expresses as we know it will be few and far between post Western Metro.

Yep, I agree, had the CPRL been built as originally planned, it would be the NW and inner NW Metro being built now with CPRL trains terminating on the North Shore line. Its ironic that the ECRL project which was designed to use the spare capacity on the bridge actually was a victim of its own success and now has to be pushed off the bridge to allow for growth of the NSL.
It's just not logical to increase services on the Outer Western Line to meet demand and then have passengers interchange to the metro to complete their journeys towards the CBD.  Apart from being hugely unpopular, it's not practicable to turn trains around at Parramatta or Westmead while maintaining a high frequency for through services.  What should happen is to increase the number of paths through track amplification from Parramatta to the CBD to allow these extra services from the west to continue through to the CBD, without the need to interchange to Metro West.

To the best of my recollection, the original Parramatta to Chatswood Rail Link, truncated from Epping to Chatswood, was designed to ease congestion on the Inner West corridor, by diverting passengers from Hornsby on the Northern Line and from the west bound for North Shore destinations, instead of travelling through the CBD.  As it would have been part of the HR network, it would not require interchange to the North Shore Line, but trains would continue through to the CBD via the harbour bridge.  Future demand was to be met by constructing the second harbour rail crossing as part of the existing HR network.  How much simpler things might have been with one unified network.
Transtopic
On the PCRL being used to divert traffic away from the western corridor, won't get an argument from me. I find failure to complete this project one of the biggest transvestites in Sydney rail. Ok today, the DD option is gone, wouldn't take much to build it an automated Metro line. Surely today with the growth of the west, this is more viable than ever.

On the Western Corridor, yes I don't disagree with the extra pair of tracks as you pointed out with DD trains is better, with a few exceptions
- Olympic park is off the main, it was never going to be easy to service with current network unless its part of a terminating service.
- Bays district, branch line option won't work, too short, not enough catchment.

The whole corridor is a mess to achieve the required end goal of 8 tracks to Homebush, 6 to Granvile and Paramatta, also some how turns what is a relatively straight route into a series of windy bends with trains speeds half what they should.

Q. How much would it cost to achieve the desired end goal?
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
RTT you are wrong on the western expresses. Metro west provides an option for anybody getting on a train at parramatta or westmead. It will not promote an interchange when the metro stations will not actually be anywhere near the existing stations. Parramatta metro station is looking likely to be connected to the Light rail on Macquarie street and the westmead station is likely to be somewhere in the vicinity of the t-way stop outside westmead hospital. Neither are really viable to promote interchange from T1 to MW. The MW is also likely to expand to blacktown in the future.

The metro is the way forward DJF because the current system is just old, outdated and too interconnected. The metro provides the accessibility for the disabled as well as the extra safety and security from the Platform doors. The future plan is to reduce the function of the existing system within Sydney and use it as corridors for intercity, outer suburban and freight. This does not mean it will close down the existing system but just reduce it's use and so when the system fails the city will no longer collapse in to transit hell.
I agree that Metro West won't promote much interchange for passengers west of Parramatta/Westmead.  It will depend on their destination if it's not direct to the CBD.  There's still no definitive formal announcement of where the Parramatta and Westmead metro stations will be located, although it has been suggested that the Westmead Station will be under the existing surface station.  It's unlikely that Metro West will be extended to Blacktown, as it's already been mooted that it will extend in a different direction to Badgerys Creek Airport.

You're being disingenuous in painting the existing HR network as being "old, outdated and too interconnected".  What shortcomings it may have are a direct result of the lack of investment in upgrading and expanding the network under both Liberal and Labor governments.  The current government in particular has dropped the ball in not responding to the massive increase in patronage on the existing system, while they have been pre-occupied with their focus on the metro expansion.  It's now coming home to bite them.  

You have absolutely no justification for suggesting that "the future plan is to reduce the function of the existing system within Sydney and use its corridors for intercity, outer suburban and freight".   That's totally absurd and the cost in replacing all inner city lines with metro would be prohibitive and unwarranted.  There's a huge capital investment in place, built up over a century and a half and you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Transtopic
Unless they plan to go via Smithfield, it will run via Blacktown then head south some distance after to get around the Reserviour. I suspect Blacktown will be more favorable.

If Westmead Metro is under Westmead surface, there is your interchange, add Blacktown and you have the starting point of an express service through the west connecting to the city and major transfer points in one direction and the airport in the other.

I don't share the mass conversion vision of the DD network, but if the costs are far more favorable for Metro, then something has to change.
  Transtopic Assistant Commissioner

It's just not logical to increase services on the Outer Western Line to meet demand and then have passengers interchange to the metro to complete their journeys towards the CBD.  Apart from being hugely unpopular, it's not practicable to turn trains around at Parramatta or Westmead while maintaining a high frequency for through services.  What should happen is to increase the number of paths through track amplification from Parramatta to the CBD to allow these extra services from the west to continue through to the CBD, without the need to interchange to Metro West.

To the best of my recollection, the original Parramatta to Chatswood Rail Link, truncated from Epping to Chatswood, was designed to ease congestion on the Inner West corridor, by diverting passengers from Hornsby on the Northern Line and from the west bound for North Shore destinations, instead of travelling through the CBD.  As it would have been part of the HR network, it would not require interchange to the North Shore Line, but trains would continue through to the CBD via the harbour bridge.  Future demand was to be met by constructing the second harbour rail crossing as part of the existing HR network.  How much simpler things might have been with one unified network.
On the PCRL being used to divert traffic away from the western corridor, won't get an argument from me. I find failure to complete this project one of the biggest transvestites in Sydney rail. Ok today, the DD option is gone, wouldn't take much to build it an automated Metro line. Surely today with the growth of the west, this is more viable than ever.

On the Western Corridor, yes I don't disagree with the extra pair of tracks as you pointed out with DD trains is better, with a few exceptions
- Olympic park is off the main, it was never going to be easy to service with current network unless its part of a terminating service.
- Bays district, branch line option won't work, too short, not enough catchment.

The whole corridor is a mess to achieve the required end goal of 8 tracks to Homebush, 6 to Granvile and Paramatta, also some how turns what is a relatively straight route into a series of windy bends with trains speeds half what they should.

Q. How much would it cost to achieve the desired end goal?
RTT_Rules
I think we're somewhat on the same page here Shane.  I agree that it was a huge failure on the part of the Labor Party not to complete the Parramatta to Chatswood Rail Link, specifically the PERL.  Had they carried through with it, then we would be facing a completely different scenario today.  

Now that the Metro Northwest is a reality, I don't have a problem with constructing a metro link between Parramatta and Macquarie Park, which is proposed as a long term project in the government's future transport strategy.  How this link will actually interface with Metro Northwest is open to conjecture. It's currently proposed as a metro link from Parramatta to Epping. There's no detail released of whether this will involve a direct connection to the Metro Northwest tunnel, if in fact feasible, or a separate terminating station at Epping, requiring interchange.  

If a direct connection to the existing metro line is feasible, then it would it would make more sense to build the line from Parramatta to Macquarie University via the shorter and faster route via Eastwood, which would also interchange with the Northern Line.  Even if it isn't practicable to connect directly with Metro Northwest, because of the disruption to existing services, a terminating and interchange station at Macquarie University via the Eastwood route would be preferable to one at Epping.  The main traffic generators will be Parramatta and Macquarie University/Macquarie Park and they should be the primary focus.

All the T1 Western Line needs is a new express tunnel from Parramatta to a new terminus in the CBD, with minimal intermediate stations, to allow for faster through services from the outer west.  Extending the T2 Inner West Line from Homebush to Olympic Park allowing for a single all stations operating pattern would also be warranted
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

It's just not logical to increase services on the Outer Western Line to meet demand and then have passengers interchange to the metro to complete their journeys towards the CBD.
Transtopic

It all depends on how you measure efficiency @Transtopic.

If your KPI cost $/Journey, then it's clearly optimal to have as many PAX as possible complete their journey with a few modes as possible, ideally just one.

If your KPI is $/Trip (where a trip is a segment of a journey on a given mode) then there is a clear benefit (to the transport operator) in having people complete their journey via multiple modes.

Having HR be a feeder bus service for Metros is clearly the intended outcome of much of the current "planning".

As I suggested before, it's the tail wagging the dog: decide on the "solution", *then* try to find - or create - a problem for it to solve.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

There has been no formal announcements on metro west but from my contacts I believe the metro west start and alignment will be announced very soon (possibly next Sunday) and the places I mentioned are being locked in to the alignment. Building all these new metro projects is going to be expensive but it is going to happen. There are going to be metro's everywhere including a T4 alignment, metro west, extension of the nw metro, the north south line, northern beaches metro and metro west extending to the south east.

Many of you may not like it but the existing system is going to be reduced in importance for suburban work. That will be a good thing for central coast, newcastle, blue mountains and Wollongong passengers since it is going to allow them to have the extra services they want and need. All these new metro's are going to add so much more capacity to PT in Sydney then amplifying the Sydney trains system which just isn't going to happen.

The 2 tunnels from sydenham to waterloo on the cbd metro are now done and the 2 TBM's will soon be on their way to Central. So you have to stop complaining about metro because it is the future even if labor is in charge in NSW. Labor had 16 years to do something and failed miserably on many fronts.

I will be at Chatswood for the opening next Sunday.
  viaprojects Train Controller



Many of you may not like it but the existing system is going to be reduced in importance for suburban work. That will be a good thing for central coast, newcastle, blue mountains and Wollongong passengers since it is going to allow them to have the extra services they want and need. All these new metro's are going to add so much more capacity to PT in Sydney then amplifying the Sydney trains system which just isn't going to happen.

.
simstrain


not going to work..for a long time..

no planed upgrades for track to Central station ( 2 tracks to country platforms )... unless your running more services via the bridge ... but will not work as the metro may reduce usage of trains on T1 north shore it just cannot cut T1 western trains services ..
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

In time viaprojects it will. Metro west will help by putting westmead and parramatta passengers in to the city on the metro. 100,000 passengers a day use those 2 stations and so metro west will make a huge difference to the T1. It may not result in people interchanging off the T1 but it will allow more blue mountains and newcastle services to operate and those are the services which run full at the moment due to there express running vs the normal suburban services.
  viaprojects Train Controller

Metro west will help by putting westmead and parramatta passengers in to the city on the metro.
simstrain

other thinking ... easy to move passangers of one to the other .. but your pushing the hard part - the trains .. you still have full trains west of Parramatta and bigger problem with west of Blacktown station and don't forget north of Chatswood station .. metro does not replace current transport ( rail ) services..

Parramatta and Blacktown can create a shuttle system.. just cannot do it at peak hour ( emu plains / Penrith to Parramatta ) assuming you have that type of thinking of free space on the network when the western metro is done...
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Metro west will help by putting westmead and parramatta passengers in to the city on the metro.

other thinking ... easy to move passangers of one to the other .. but your pushing the hard part - the trains .. you still have full trains west of Parramatta and bigger problem with west of Blacktown station and don't forget north of Chatswood station .. metro does not replace current transport ( rail ) services..

Parramatta and Blacktown can create a shuttle system.. just cannot do it at peak hour ( emu plains / Penrith to Parramatta ) assuming you have that type of thinking of free space on the network when the western metro is done...
viaprojects

Most of the people complaining about full trains are complaining about the intercity express V set services. There are also trains that are not full approaching westmead and parramatta. The new intercity trains can help solve the issue with the express services.
  viaprojects Train Controller

There are also trains that are not full approaching westmead and parramatta.
simstrain


there the one's that are going to Liverpool T6 line ... change T6 to T1 trains at Blacktown or Seven hills to enter a full train going to the city ...
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Metro west will help by putting westmead and parramatta passengers in to the city on the metro.

other thinking ... easy to move passangers of one to the other .. but your pushing the hard part - the trains .. you still have full trains west of Parramatta and bigger problem with west of Blacktown station and don't forget north of Chatswood station .. metro does not replace current transport ( rail ) services..

Parramatta and Blacktown can create a shuttle system.. just cannot do it at peak hour ( emu plains / Penrith to Parramatta ) assuming you have that type of thinking of free space on the network when the western metro is done...

Most of the people complaining about full trains are complaining about the intercity express V set services. There are also trains that are not full approaching westmead and parramatta. The new intercity trains can help solve the issue with the express services.
simstrain
There is all ready a Parramatta to Blacktown shuttle. It is called the cumberland line
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I am actually looking at the opal data now. Blacktown and Penrith have nearly 30,000 ins and outs and so those 2 stations are the biggest problem for trains on T1. I will be keeping an eye out on anytrip in the morning to see the loadings in peak hour.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I just had a look on tripview at the 5:40pm and 5:49pm central to penrith services. I do have screenshots but unfortunately pictures don't work on here. Both of those were full (red) at central, A single empty carriage at Parramatta and blacktown and 6 empty carriages at doonside.
  C3765 Junior Train Controller

To increase services from Cabramatta to Lidcombe Via Sefton they should extend the all stations to Revesby service up to Lidcombe. They would need to quadruple the tracks between Revesby and Holsworthy, and add an extra pair of tracks to Cabramatta Via Liverpool either underground or next to the existing line. New platforms would be built at Casula (Optional), Liverpool, Warwick Farm (Optional) and Cabramatta. Then the line would connect to the existing line from Cabramatta and proceed to Lidcombe Via Regents Park. The Metro should then be extended to Sefton where they can transfer to Liverpool/Revesby or Lidcombe services.

Also Platforms 3&4 of Tempe station should be closed and a corridor should be built to Wolli Creek Station with maybe one of those flat escalators (like those at an airport) so that passengers from the airport and Illawarra can transfer to T8 Services Via Sydenham and vice versa. The station should be renamed “Wolli Creek” to prevent confusion.

The new airport link should also be an extension of the South West Rail Link so that the T5 Cumberland Y Link can go to St Marys instead of Schofields and run in an endless loop, becoming the T5 Badgerys Creek Circle/Loop.

After the Carlingford Line is converted to LightRail, they should consider closing Clyde station.

After the following changes are made, the following changes will be made to stopping patterns. (This is post Bankstown and Parramatta metro).

T1 Berowra to Emu Plains & Hornsby to Richmond Via Gordon Services

Berowra to Strathfield (Current Stopping pattern), Lidcombe, Granville (Change for T2) Parramatta (Change for T5), Westmead, Blacktown, All Stations to Richmond or Penrith/Emu Plains.
Frequency: 3-4 mins during Peak

T2 City to Lidcombe Via Olympic Park

Continues from T3 Line Circular Quay, Wynyard, Town Hall, Central, then all to Olympic Park and Lidcombe (P0)

Frequency: 3-4 Mins (Thanks to single stopping pattern)

T3 City to Lidcombe Via East Hills

Continues from T2 Line, Circular Quay, St James, Museum, Central, Redfern, Erskineville, St Peters, Sydenham, Tempe/Wolli  
Creek, Turrella, Bardwell Park, Bexley North, Kingsgrove, Beverly Hills, Narwee, Riverwood, Padstow, Revesby (T8), Panania, East Hills, Holsworthy (T8), Liverpool, Cabramatta, Carramar, Villawood, Leightonfield, Chester Hill, Sefton (M1), Regents Park, Berala and Lidcombe (T1, T2, T6, T7)

T4 City to Cronulla/Waterfall (No Change)

T5 Badgerys Creek Loop/Circle Line

Parramatta, Harris Park, Merrylands, Guildford, Yennora, Fairfield, Canley Vale, Cabramatta, Warwick Farm, Liverpool, Casula, Glenfield, Edmondson Park, Leppington, Rosmore, Bringelly, Badgerys Creek, Western Sydney Airport, Luddenham, Orchards Hills, St Clair, St Marys (T1), Mount Druitt, Rooty Hill, Doonside, Seven Hills, Toongabbie, Pendle Hill, Wentworthville, Westmead and Parramatta (Continue to Badgerys Creek again)

Frequency: 5 min during Peak

T6 City to Leppington

Continue from T8 Line, Circular Quay, Wynyard, Townhall, Central, All to Granville, and All to Leppington

Frequency: 3-4 mins (Some services may need to be cut at Granville due to increased T5 line services)

T7 Gordon/Hornsby to Hornsby Via Strathfield and Epping (No Change)

T8 City to Airport, East Hills and MacArthur/Campbeltown

Continue from T6 Line, Circular Quay, St James, Museum, Central, Green Square, Mascot, Domestic Airport, International Airport, Wolli Creek, Revesby (T3), Panania, East Hills, Holsworthy, Glenfield (T5, T6), and all to MacArthur or Campbeltown.

Frequency: 3-4 mins during Peak

M1 North West to Bankstown

Tallawong, All to Chatswood, all to Bankstown Via Waterloo, Yagoona, Birrong and Sefton (T3)

Key:
(Can Transfer for)

All of the changes above will significantly reduce journey times as frequent services will mean less time waiting for a train.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

To increase services from Cabramatta to Lidcombe Via Sefton they should extend the all stations to Revesby service up to Lidcombe. They would need to quadruple the tracks between Revesby and Holsworthy, and add an extra pair of tracks to Cabramatta Via Liverpool either underground or next to the existing line. New platforms would be built at Casula (Optional), Liverpool, Warwick Farm (Optional) and Cabramatta. Then the line would connect to the existing line from Cabramatta and proceed to Lidcombe Via Regents Park. The Metro should then be extended to Sefton where they can transfer to Liverpool/Revesby or Lidcombe services.
C3765

Just no. Why would anybody catch that train for. If it was an express that reduced travel times to/from Liverpool then that makes sense but why would you force the people of Liverpool on to another slow all stops service for. There are already enough of those as it is.

Sponsored advertisement

Subscribers: RTT_Rules, Transtopic, wurx

Display from: