2019 Election - Labor promises $1Billion for 'bullet train' land acquisition

 

News article: Labor promises $1 billion for high-speed rail corridor between Brisbane, Sydney, Canberra and Melbourne

Labor will attempt again to revive a long-held ambition to build a high-speed rail network linking Canberra to the east coast capitals, by committing $1 billion to secure land for a corridor to make it happen if elected on May 18.

  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The vhst is not about regional transport. It is about airline replacement between the capital cities and nothing else. The ARA is still only saying that there will be 18 million passenger trips a year between Sydney and Melbourne in 2065. This number is nowhere near enough to make a $100 billion railway viable in 2065 let alone in 2019. Fixing the existing alignments just as the Hume highway had done for a fraction of that price is way more viable and helps make rail freight more competitive between Sydney and Melbourne and from regional areas.

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  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

HSR will be a positive for communities on the corridor from Melbourne to Canberra where 1 hour journey times from the Murray River would not be out of the question.  The key to the development will be connections (as it is in Japan) between the HSR line and the V/Line feeder lines (regional lines) so it will also drive change in the v/line network.
bevans
1) The 1hr trip from the Murray Mel and Canberra is fantasy land material and the hype that pro-HSR punters are feeding the politicians and peasants. The technology doesn't even exist to do this for an $ number a 2050 Australian economy could afford.

2) So, assume for a moment the 1h to be real, you think its ok to provide a heavily subsidised transport system that gets someone in Albury to the CBD of Mel faster than someone living on the current outer suburbs of Melbourne?

3) How much would you expect someone from Albury to pay for such a service?

4) Your comparison with Japan is as short sighted as the 1h from Albury. Japan has 75% of its +100m population over a strip of land between Toyko and Osaka that is the distance from Albury to Melbourne. There would be more dogs between Toyko and Osaka than people between Albury and outer Mel.

Considering there are only what 2 V/line services on this corridor, how is a HSR going to drive change? You think Benigo will get a connection to Wondonga?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

well "touch wood" It looks like we may not have to worry about this. An amazing night if Scott Morrison wins. Although I suspect there maybe some people on here who are not so happy.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Making assumptions to respend the money into other projects isn't a fair comparison.

For example:

The Melbourne Metro Tunnel costs 11 billion dollars.

If we didn't build that and instead spent that money on multiple smaller projects, that would have a benefit more widespread than one single major project. 11 billion dollars could easily be spent on extending the train lines, upgrading the regional network further, or improving bus services. But this isn't a fair comparison.

Although the Metro Tunnel in itself would in itself benefit mostly a single corridor and release capacity on the network. The benefit would still be large, it's just it's more centralized and focussed, has a larger and higher capacity and faster travel time.

Another example:

This is why substituting the suburban rail loop for multiple widespread light rail projects as proposed by transport experts are in the same way. While the light rail projects would benefit more widespread than a single rail loop, this rail loop is more centralized and focussed and has a larger and higher capacity and faster travel time.
True Believers
Yes exactly, it benefits the whole network. The Suburban Rail loop is just an expensive boondoogle which requires jobs to be shifted to those suburbs. There just isnt the justification for a $50 Billion spend, there just isnt. If jobs are to be decentarlised they should be moved to Regional cities not outer suburbs.

Michael
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
well "touch wood" It looks like we may not have to worry about this. An amazing night if Scott Morrison wins. Although I suspect there maybe some people on here who are not so happy.
simstrain
I predict it will again be part of the 2022 election and remain part the new Opposition Leaders (Ambo) policy!
  arctic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Zurich

1) The 1hr trip from the Murray Mel and Canberra is fantasy land material and the hype that pro-HSR punters are feeding the politicians and peasants. The technology doesn't even exist to do this for an $ number a 2050 Australian economy could afford.
RTT_Rules
Well its not exactly one hour but a little more for the Corridors mentioned by Bevans. This is from the 2013 report "High Speed
Rail Study Phase 2 Report". Max speed mentioned in the report is 350km/h. So not unreasonable to say it and within current technology.

The japan reference. You are being harsh in my view, considering the context.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
While just some of the HSR trains can actually achieve 350km/h, the issue is being able to sustain it with the alignment and how close you need to get to Mel CBD still holding 350km/h.

Look at the zig zag pattern for Airport line and its price is what $10B (and the ongoing challenge to make this stack up finacially), so how much do you think the HSR will cost to do the trip fast enough?

My issue with this report is that it's predicted running times are all based on someone drawing a straight line on a map. Yet every HSR I've used cannot average anywhere near the speeds required for Oz due to bends, terrain, avoiding population centres and other high cost obstacles and slow approaches to major cities.
  arctic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Zurich
While just some of the HSR trains can actually achieve 350km/h, the issue is being able to sustain it with the alignment and how close you need to get to Mel CBD still holding 350km/h.

Look at the zig zag pattern for Airport line and its price is what $10B (and the ongoing challenge to make this stack up finacially), so how much do you think the HSR will cost to do the trip fast enough?

My issue with this report is that it's predicted running times are all based on someone drawing a straight line on a map. Yet every HSR I've used cannot average anywhere near the speeds required for Oz due to bends, terrain, avoiding population centres and other high cost obstacles and slow approaches to major cities.
RTT_Rules
Try reading the report again. An alignment is shown that is better than “straight lines on a map”, including the city approaches.
  Sulla1 Chief Commissioner

Well, it's all hyperbole and empty words now, to be packed away for another election campaign.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

See you in 2022 high speed debate.
  Ethan1395 Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
This is not a debate where we should spend 80 billion dollars. It's not comparing apples with apples, it's not a fair comparison.

This should be talking about the high-speed rail itself and how it should be best be implemented. We all agree high-speed rail is part of an integral part of Australia's future regional public transport system. Not sure why you would redirect money on projects that are already been funded and ongoing by the state government. The Federal/State major agenda is trying to fund the high-speed rail route, why you guys so against an idea that would actually do good to Australia's economy and be a future investment for the next generation.

All the states want high-speed trains. Victoria, NSW, and Queensland all want a high-speed rail network and most people would agree this is a project of national significance. Why do you need to be so bitter and cynical about the project? The project will help out the country improve patronage on our regional rail network and you guys are stuck in the past with using airliners and roads and smaller investments that would do little improving the overall regional network across Vic - Queensland.
Not True
What some are trying to say is that the HSR is a waste of money or at least not money well spent and doesn't solve many of the problems most seem to think it will.

What some are also trying to say is if you took that $80B (for NSW section) and then redirected to other projects that would not be funded for decades due to limitations in govt revenue, then what else could you achieve with that money? and in doing so how much beneficial the community would be better off.

So no, We all DO NOT agree high-speed rail is part of an integral part of Australa's future for regional PT. This statement alone from yourself demonstrates why it SHOULDN'T be built. You want to spend $100B so its convenient to get to a handful of cities of less than 100k between Mel and Bris. Noting that the HSR stations will be at closest +200km apart in regional areas.

HSR benefits maybe 20-30m users a year. The alt projects could benefit that a month and do more for pollution, quality of living, traffic congestion than HSR will ever do.

No one has said the regional areas should be neglected, MSR could be rolled out for a fraction of the price of HSR and support rail freight and interurban traffic as well. I think most people with some commonsense will agree that travel times of ~4h from the mid-point between our major east coast capitals + 2h travel time Can to Syd is more than acceptable for the population levels we have now and in 30 years time.
RTT_Rules
This, exactly this.

And who does benefit? capitals, only capitals, even if the High Speed Rail stops in a regional area, it's still funneling people into overcrowded, and expensive capitals.
Obviously, capitals need to be the prime focus given the higher population, but that doesn't mean that they should be the only focus.
I would even argue that (unless the government has a lot of money to spend), that High Speed Rail IS neglecting 'regional' areas (that's if you can consider cities with populations 500,000 and 300,000 as 'regional' areas) since even now, the government flat out refuses to spend money on local public transport infrastructure outside of capital cities (the Newcastle light rail doesn't count since it's 2.7km line was only built to replace an existing heavy rail line which was torn out (still better than a walking track through an unwalkable city though), when an original extension is built, then it counts), how are going to decide to spend money on local public transport infrastructure after spending $120-140B on a capital-centric High Speed Rail system.

No we don't all agree. Exactly how does it help out regional areas. Does it get product to market faster from regional areas? The train is the past. The airliner is the present and future. Regional areas don't need passenger rail. They need freight rail and a high speed network doesn't provide this.

If this new rail line can't do freight then the project is a waste of money and time.
simstrain
I'm against High Speed Rail, but I would certainly never say that regional areas don't need passenger rail due to airliners being the present and future, regional flights are very expensive and often price people out.
But medium speed rail can still offer competition to airlines with fixed (non fluctuating or surge pricing) fares and fares half that of flying, and the extra travel time can be seen as not too much extra considering the lack of airport hassles.
And medium speed rail can also carry freight.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Newcastle, Wollongong and Geelong are not regional as far as I am concerned and are cities in their own right. The question then becomes are they to be there own cities or are they to become extensions of Sydney and Melbourne.

Fixing the existing alignments could easily bring the XPT to under 8 hours or so at significantly lower cost and it will reduce freight transit times as well. This will not happen by just leaving the existing alignment for freight to build a vhst for passenger services.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Try reading the report again. An alignment is shown that is better than “straight lines on a map”, including the city approaches.
arctic
I don't need to, the average speed for the quoted Syd-Mel express as stated in the table is ~310km/h.

The current fasest HSR line in the world, talking average speed is a 930km long line in China (name escapes me right now, I'll find later). With no stops it was around 313km/h, topping 350km/h. It has since been reduced to around 300km/h with an extra stop and to save money.

So do the sums for a train from Syd to Mel travelling the alignment in the report, averaging 310km/h, how close do you need to get to both Syd and Mel at 350km/h to achieve the published times? Noting that for the entire route the train must hold nearly 350km/h inbetween. If the Chinese are struggling, then what hope does Australia have? Also note the average Chinese citizen won't complain when the govt builds a 900km long viaduct across the country side, the average Australian will be up in arms if they tried to do the same thing.
  Ethan1395 Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
Newcastle, Wollongong and Geelong are not regional as far as I am concerned and are cities in their own right. The question then becomes are they to be there own cities or are they to become extensions of Sydney and Melbourne.

Fixing the existing alignments could easily bring the XPT to under 8 hours or so at significantly lower cost and it will reduce freight transit times as well. This will not happen by just leaving the existing alignment for freight to build a vhst for passenger services.
simstrain
Looks like we are in agreement. Newcastle, Wollongong, and Geelong are cities in their own right. I have no knowledge of Geelong as I have never been to Victoria, but I imagine terrain and national parks will prevent Newcastle and Wollongong forming with Sydney into one mega-city, Newcastle is also too far from Sydney, although Wollongong is close enough.
Currently the problem is that the government treats everywhere outside of Sydney as insignificant country towns, despite having populations large enough, not one single piece local public transport of local public transport infrastructure in these cities has been constructed in recent times.
Once again, I can't speak for Victoria as I have never been there, but in NSW, despite having 3 large enough cities, if you want to get a job and catch public transport, Sydney is your only option, you have no other choice, you HAVE to live in Sydney if you need these things, this leads to incredible strain on the Sydney system, overpopulation, and expensive property prices, if Newcastle and Wollongong became livable with job growth and public transport networks, there would be less pressure on Sydney as people would have a choice about where they want to live - compared to a High Speed Rail project which will rob funding of any other public transport projects and dump more people into an expensive and overcrowded Sydney.

Regarding fixing the the existing alignments for the XPT and it's replacement, I agree, and the cheaper fares and more relaxed experience could be advertised and promoted as an alternative for flying. And as you mentioned, freight moves faster, everyone wins with medium speed rail.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Newcastle, Wollongong and Geelong are not regional as far as I am concerned and are cities in their own right. The question then becomes are they to be there own cities or are they to become extensions of Sydney and Melbourne.

Fixing the existing alignments could easily bring the XPT to under 8 hours or so at significantly lower cost and it will reduce freight transit times as well. This will not happen by just leaving the existing alignment for freight to build a vhst for passenger services.
Looks like we are in agreement. Newcastle, Wollongong, and Geelong are cities in their own right. I have no knowledge of Geelong as I have never been to Victoria, but I imagine terrain and national parks will prevent Newcastle and Wollongong forming with Sydney into one mega-city, Newcastle is also too far from Sydney, although Wollongong is close enough.
Currently the problem is that the government treats everywhere outside of Sydney as insignificant country towns, despite having populations large enough, not one single piece local public transport of local public transport infrastructure in these cities has been constructed in recent times.
Once again, I can't speak for Victoria as I have never been there, but in NSW, despite having 3 large enough cities, if you want to get a job and catch public transport, Sydney is your only option, you have no other choice, you HAVE to live in Sydney if you need these things, this leads to incredible strain on the Sydney system, overpopulation, and expensive property prices, if Newcastle and Wollongong became livable with job growth and public transport networks, there would be less pressure on Sydney as people would have a choice about where they want to live - compared to a High Speed Rail project which will rob funding of any other public transport projects and dump more people into an expensive and overcrowded Sydney.

Regarding fixing the the existing alignments for the XPT and it's replacement, I agree, and the cheaper fares and more relaxed experience could be advertised and promoted as an alternative for flying. And as you mentioned, freight moves faster, everyone wins with medium speed rail.
Ethan1395
NSW stands for Newcastle, Sydney and Wollongong. The three including the Central Coast in the middle have or are merging into one continuous city with a bit of green in between, not unlike the Tokyo - Yokohama coastal fringe.

What such a coastal suburban sprawl needs is fast, frequent train services, not High speed with limited stops on a limited schedule and benefits no one.

Geelong and Melbourne have some way to go before the two merge, but consider Geelong to be a satellite city of Melbourne.
  Ethan1395 Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
NSW stands for Newcastle, Sydney and Wollongong. The three including the Central Coast in the middle have or are merging into one continuous city with a bit of green in between, not unlike the Tokyo - Yokohama coastal fringe.

What such a coastal suburban sprawl needs is fast, frequent train services, not High speed with limited stops on a limited schedule and benefits no one.

Geelong and Melbourne have some way to go before the two merge, but consider Geelong to be a satellite city of Melbourne.
RTT_Rules
Well should it be allowed to merge (theoretically at least, I don't think they are able to merge), could it be considered practical for people in Newcastle to commute to Sydney for work, which already happens and is exhausting for those who do it.

Regardless, the areas do need fast and frequent train services, but local services need to be included in that, even if the areas merge into a single city, I don't think that it's practical for people in Newcastle to be commuting to Sydney for work unless the commute time is brought down to 1 hour, which would require high speed rail, so it's probably cheaper and better for everyone to rebuild a suburban network for Newcastle and promote job growth.

On an a semi-unrelated note, people are calling for wage increases to match the increase in cost of living, most people on Railpage would say that wages can't be increased as more jobs would go, saying that rail manufacturing is gone from NSW already due to high wages, so mabye instead or raising the minimum wage, something should be done about the cost of living, since people have the choice of:
-live in Sydney which is expensive, but you only need to own 1 car since public transport is often the cheaper, faster way to travel.
-live in Newcastle, where housing is cheaper, but the average family of 4 will possibly ending up needing to own 4 cars, which is of course, expensive.

Funny how a discussion about High Speed Rail led to that ^ (a discussion about minimum wage), maybe someone should start a topic about what public transport projects are necessary (like proper public transport outside of Sydney) and what is unnecessary (like High Speed Rail).
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I never said rail jobs were gone because of high wages. I will agree that the DD rolling stock should have been made here but because we have lost the skills to do so in NSW it can no longer happen. People forget that around the time of the mining boom and the millenium train there was a great loss of the technical skill sets from this state.

While Victoria had auto manufacturing during that time Sydney was importing more and more and warehousing replaced manufacturing. The skills required to do this are nearly all gone and so for NSW we have to import everything now. So we go for the best bang for our buck and Victoria can not compete because they aren't innovative. The X05 LRV and the new regional rolling stock are much more modern then anything bombardier in Victoria is producing and so the contracts went to the new technology.
  Lockspike Chief Commissioner

I love this thread/topic, so many responses in such a short time. It's the topic that just keeps on giving...Smile
  8077 Chief Train Controller

Location: Crossing the Rubicon
I love this thread/topic, so many responses in such a short time. It's the topic that just keeps on giving...Smile
Lockspike

I only recently discovered it but now I am sad this investment may now not go ahead?
  arctic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Zurich
Greetings,

Here is an example map from the 2013 HSR study. Just for everyone to see the detail (or not) that was actually done. Maps exist for the entire alignment.

Cheers
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I never said rail jobs were gone because of high wages. I will agree that the DD rolling stock should have been made here but because we have lost the skills to do so in NSW it can no longer happen. People forget that around the time of the mining boom and the millenium train there was a great loss of the technical skill sets from this state.

While Victoria had auto manufacturing during that time Sydney was importing more and more and warehousing replaced manufacturing. The skills required to do this are nearly all gone and so for NSW we have to import everything now. So we go for the best bang for our buck and Victoria can not compete because they aren't innovative. The X05 LRV and the new regional rolling stock are much more modern then anything bombardier in Victoria is producing and so the contracts went to the new technology.
simstrain
We haven't lost the skills, if that was true, nothing new would ever happen here again. Ironically we are dealing with a list of Australia companies which a world leaders in their field, a field that didn't exist 4-5 years ago.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
NSW stands for Newcastle, Sydney and Wollongong. The three including the Central Coast in the middle have or are merging into one continuous city with a bit of green in between, not unlike the Tokyo - Yokohama coastal fringe.

What such a coastal suburban sprawl needs is fast, frequent train services, not High speed with limited stops on a limited schedule and benefits no one.

Geelong and Melbourne have some way to go before the two merge, but consider Geelong to be a satellite city of Melbourne.
Well should it be allowed to merge (theoretically at least, I don't think they are able to merge), could it be considered practical for people in Newcastle to commute to Sydney for work, which already happens and is exhausting for those who do it.

Regardless, the areas do need fast and frequent train services, but local services need to be included in that, even if the areas merge into a single city, I don't think that it's practical for people in Newcastle to be commuting to Sydney for work unless the commute time is brought down to 1 hour, which would require high speed rail, so it's probably cheaper and better for everyone to rebuild a suburban network for Newcastle and promote job growth.

On an a semi-unrelated note, people are calling for wage increases to match the increase in cost of living, most people on Railpage would say that wages can't be increased as more jobs would go, saying that rail manufacturing is gone from NSW already due to high wages, so mabye instead or raising the minimum wage, something should be done about the cost of living, since people have the choice of:
-live in Sydney which is expensive, but you only need to own 1 car since public transport is often the cheaper, faster way to travel.
-live in Newcastle, where housing is cheaper, but the average family of 4 will possibly ending up needing to own 4 cars, which is of course, expensive.

Funny how a discussion about High Speed Rail led to that ^ (a discussion about minimum wage), maybe someone should start a topic about what public transport projects are necessary (like proper public transport outside of Sydney) and what is unnecessary (like High Speed Rail).
Ethan1395
The bulk of the cost of living is linked to land prices.
  Ethan1395 Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
NSW stands for Newcastle, Sydney and Wollongong. The three including the Central Coast in the middle have or are merging into one continuous city with a bit of green in between, not unlike the Tokyo - Yokohama coastal fringe.

What such a coastal suburban sprawl needs is fast, frequent train services, not High speed with limited stops on a limited schedule and benefits no one.

Geelong and Melbourne have some way to go before the two merge, but consider Geelong to be a satellite city of Melbourne.
Well should it be allowed to merge (theoretically at least, I don't think they are able to merge), could it be considered practical for people in Newcastle to commute to Sydney for work, which already happens and is exhausting for those who do it.

Regardless, the areas do need fast and frequent train services, but local services need to be included in that, even if the areas merge into a single city, I don't think that it's practical for people in Newcastle to be commuting to Sydney for work unless the commute time is brought down to 1 hour, which would require high speed rail, so it's probably cheaper and better for everyone to rebuild a suburban network for Newcastle and promote job growth.

On an a semi-unrelated note, people are calling for wage increases to match the increase in cost of living, most people on Railpage would say that wages can't be increased as more jobs would go, saying that rail manufacturing is gone from NSW already due to high wages, so mabye instead or raising the minimum wage, something should be done about the cost of living, since people have the choice of:
-live in Sydney which is expensive, but you only need to own 1 car since public transport is often the cheaper, faster way to travel.
-live in Newcastle, where housing is cheaper, but the average family of 4 will possibly ending up needing to own 4 cars, which is of course, expensive.

Funny how a discussion about High Speed Rail led to that ^ (a discussion about minimum wage), maybe someone should start a topic about what public transport projects are necessary (like proper public transport outside of Sydney) and what is unnecessary (like High Speed Rail).
The bulk of the cost of living is linked to land prices.
RTT_Rules
Yes, of course, land prices and housing in general.

If it were possible to take public transport and get a job in not just Sydney, but also Wollongong and Newcastle, it would unlock cheaper land prices outside of Sydney for people and lower the cost of living,
it would also fix the issue of people living in Newcastle needing to own up to 4 cars per family and lower the cost of living.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

We haven't lost the skills, if that was true, nothing new would ever happen here again. Ironically we are dealing with a list of Australia companies which a world leaders in their field, a field that didn't exist 4-5 years ago.
RTT_Rules

Yes we have lost the skills in Sydney. Most of the engineering for these new projects in sydney are using foreign companies. Why do you think the NSW government has been contracting spanish, french, italian and other foreign companies to build these projects.
  Lockspike Chief Commissioner

While Victoria had auto manufacturing during that time Sydney was importing more and more and warehousing replaced manufacturing. The skills required to do this are nearly all gone and so for NSW we have to import everything now.
We haven't lost the skills, if that was true, nothing new would ever happen here again. Ironically we are dealing with a list of Australia companies which a world leaders in their field, a field that didn't exist 4-5 years ago.
RTT_Rules
And even if we have lost the technical skills, they can be regained. It may be difficult, it may be expensive, but they can be regained.

Due to enemy naval activity during WW2 shipping to and from Australia became unreliable and expensive, with our port activity being reduced by about 50%. Australia found it had to develop the necessary skills to make many products that had previously been imported;
skills can be learnt given sufficient incentive.

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