If most 17 year olds WANT to get a car ASAP and if a family WANTS to own 1 car per family member by choice, that is perfectly fine, the problem comes when it is a requirement, and when it's impossible to get a job without a car, and a 17 year old needs to get a car BEFORE they can work is unacceptable, and it doesn't help that it's impossible to get a car without first getting a job unless you come from a family wealthy enough to buy you one and pay for all the registration and insurance. I didn't get my car as soon as I was 17 (never came form a rich family), I managed to get some work (but from what I was told, it was the exception rather than the rule) and it would take me upwards of 2 hours to get from some parts of Newcastle to another - almost quicker to commute to Sydney.

I was not referring to Newcastle specifically in terms of people being okay with unemployment, I was actually referring to a time when I was talking with another use about improving the Thirroul-Waterfall route and they mentioned giving a large number of people access to the Sydney labour market and I said it would be better for there to improve local services and there should be a Wollongong labour market, they actually disagreed with this and defended the commute to Sydney model we have now.
As I mentioned earlier, I am mainly talking about public transport, but unemployment and the cost of living stems from public transport, in this case, it's about how small businesses who rely on foot traffic will struggle in a car dependent environment, and how employers only favour applicants with cars.

Currently the sparks are more of an extension of the Central Coast line, previously, 2 carriage K-Sets ran local services between Newcastle and Morisset, now it's just all top Sydney services every hour on weekdays, still the same level of the service though, and no local service on weekends, they just stop every second Sydney express to give local stations a frequency of 1 train every 2 hours.
The biggest problem with the sparked line is fact that any local destination along the line doesn't have a station, or if it does, it's inaccessible (not reffering to lifts here but rather safe places to cross roads), likewise in the Newcastle suburban portion of the Hunter Line, local destinations alongside the line don't have nearby stations, the large Newcastle TAFE being an example here.
Connection times between the Hunter Line and the sparked line are usually also very poor (especially on weekends when there is reduced services).

PS: I think I remember hearing somewhere that the NSW government was committed to local manufacturing for the new regional fleet, but that never happened.

The issue of needing a car to get to work is not limited to Newcastle by any means. You also don't need to be rich to buy a car.
In today's money my first car cost $1000 and it was paid for out of my own pocket, including insurance.

The issue is where the parents choose to live with respect to the PT corridors. If they choose to live away from reasonable PT, then they need to accept responsibility for their child's transport.

Newcastle has many areas that are away from main suburbia and Sydney has similar that are not well served by PT.

There are plenty of routes that cover the area and if the lack of frequency is a problem then rest assured that happens in many parts of Sydney as well. https://newcastletransport.info/uploads/files/Maps/18680_NT_transport_guide_MAP.pdf. Please explain in more detail the specifics because to me newcastle is not favoured any less then parts of sydney. Heck there is even an on demand bus service available now in some areas.

Wollongong is more then covered by PT since most places are spitting distance from a train station. I agree it could do with some more local services but when most people can walk to the station there really isn't an issue outside of them wanting more trains to Sydney. Families needing multiple cars isn't just a Newcastle thing. If you are a tradie you need a car period and can't rely on any form of public transport.


As for the regional train not being made in Newcastle you can put that down to the local company not offering a modern train like the CAF option. If these local companies want the job then start competing and not just relying on the fact it is made in Australia.

Why couldn't we build the CAF, like we did the XPT, the Explorers, the many classes of locos, the V-sets, etc?

I have asked this before, but I digress from the subject of this thread.

If I had a shopping list of the kind of infrastructure the state needed, none of it would have anything to do with Sydney, Newcastle or the Illawara. These cities are inextricably linked.

I would put the central west, the far west, the lower mid west, and the south on the top of the agenda and linking them up to Sydney would not be the focus. Rather, I would establish or formalise centres of excellence e.g. Universities, hospitals, airports, transport/freight, and facilitate movement between them.

Why couldn't we build the CAF, like we did the XPT, the Explorers, the many classes of locos, the V-sets, etc?

I have asked this before, but I digress from the subject of this thread.

If I had a shopping list of the kind of infrastructure the state needed, none of it would have anything to do with Sydney, Newcastle or the Illawara. These cities are inextricably linked.

I would put the central west, the far west, the lower mid west, and the south on the top of the agenda and linking them up to Sydney would not be the focus. Rather, I would establish or formalise centres of excellence e.g. Universities, hospitals, airports, transport/freight, and facilitate movement between them.

Because your thinking is old. It is the same reason we no longer make cars but are making lots of aerospace equipment. We had one industry that wasn't innovative and died and the other which is innovative and thriving.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9egAVV5J_WM

The state doesn't need those towns linked by PT however. What they need is to be able to send the produce they make to port and markets faster. Which means they need freight connections to Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and Adelaide.

So...getting right off track then, you'll be in favour of:

https://www.theage.com.au/national/melbourne-announced-as-first-international-market-for-uber-air-20190612-p51wqf.html

What could possibly go wrong...

Mike.

The issue of needing a car to get to work is not limited to Newcastle by any means. You also don't need to be rich to buy a car. In today's money my first car cost $1000 and it was paid for out of my own pocket, including insurance.

The issue is where the parents choose to live with respect to the PT corridors. If they choose to live away from reasonable PT, then they need to accept responsibility for their child's transport.

Newcastle has many areas that are away from main suburbia and Sydney has similar that are not well served by PT.

Well therein lies the problem, the government only chooses to build and operate reasonable public transport in Sydney, and most Aussie families can't afford to live in Sydney.

Also the lack of public transport tends to create areas away from main suburbia which are difficult to serve in future, there is a lot of blank space in Newcastle's main suburbia yet suburbs like Cameron Park and Fletcher pop up with no PT to contain development. There is two new housing developments going up near Cockle Creek and Booragul stations, but with no proper service, I can't imagine many people will be able to use the stations anyway.

PS: I imagine your $1000 for car + insurance is the exception not the rule, $2000 is more reasonable for car + insurance (I paid $1700 for my car and $40/month insurance), but anyway, buying the car is the easy part, it's the constant ongoing costs that come after it driving up the cost of living, insurance, registration, maintenance, etc

There are plenty of routes that cover the area and if the lack of frequency is a problem then rest assured that happens in many parts of Sydney as well. https://newcastletransport.info/uploads/files/Maps/18680_NT_.... Please explain in more detail the specifics because to me newcastle is not favoured any less then parts of sydney. Heck there is even an on demand bus service available now in some areas.

Wollongong is more then covered by PT since most places are spitting distance from a train station. I agree it could do with some more local services but when most people can walk to the station there really isn't an issue outside of them wanting more trains to Sydney. Families needing multiple cars isn't just a Newcastle thing. If you are a tradie you need a car period and can't rely on any form of public transport.

It's a combination of lack of frequency, poor connection times, indirect routing, and the lack early morning/late night running. I will admit I mainly traveled on the old government system and have only really use the current buses to and from Sydney-bound trains, and the services do this well at least, but it terms of local travel, actually getting from one part of Newcastle to another, there has been nothing but complaints.
I disregard on-demand services as they are not cost effective as public transport as they are not part of the OPAL cap.

And the issue is not even families needing multiple cars (which I agree is not just a Newcastle thing), and of course tradies need their utes and can't rely on public transport, the issue is the fact that the services are so poor, that even a 17 year old's entry level job is less likely to hire them based on if they have a car or not, so even if they can take a bus to work, the hiring manager won't have it.

Wollongong does have the perfect layout for public transport, the only problem is the lack of frequency, poor connection times, I'm not sure what early morning/late night services are like, and I can't speak about managers not hiring people without cars since I've never worked there, only traveled for leisure. South of the CBD things fall a part a little with stations being too far apart and pedestrian access issues.
Public transport patronage is 10 times that of Newcastle, despite being half the population, although patronage is still minuscule relative to everything, being not much greater than the Carlingford Line.

As for the regional train not being made in Newcastle you can put that down to the local company not offering a modern train like the CAF option. If these local companies want the job then start competing and not just relying on the fact it is made in Australia.

Why couldn't we build the CAF, like we did the XPT, the Explorers, the many classes of locos, the V-sets, etc?

I have asked this before, but I digress from the subject of this thread.

Were the local companies even given the opportunity to develop a product concept? and I agree, why couldn't they build the CAF in a similar matter to the say the XPT is an 'Australianised' version of the British HST?

If I had a shopping list of the kind of infrastructure the state needed, none of it would have anything to do with Sydney, Newcastle or the Illawara. These cities are inextricably linked.

I would put the central west, the far west, the lower mid west, and the south on the top of the agenda and linking them up to Sydney would not be the focus. Rather, I would establish or formalise centres of excellence e.g. Universities, hospitals, airports, transport/freight, and facilitate movement between them.

The discussion is not really about Sydney links, Sydney, Newcastle and Wollongong are well linked to each other, but outside of Sydney, local links are poor.
Anyway, does the central west, the far west, and the lower mid west have the populations you to support what you are suggesting? please explain more about your infrastructure shopping list.

Newcastle gets similar frequency to many parts of Sydney that isn't state transit. For instance the route 14 newcastle to swansea heads gets a half hour to 1 hour frequency depending on time of day which is exactly the same an many bus routes where I live in south western Sydney. The lack of services late at night also occur in many parts of western and south western sydney.

This perception of bias is just the market fulfilling a need where there are hundreds of thousands of people a day using the service. Without these bus services Sydney would be grid locked and unable to move. Nowhere in Newcastle or Wollongong is anywhere near that type of congestion. This is not to say that I don't think there could be improvements but just that the market in Sydney dictates this need for services instead of a want of services.

Bombardier were offering Xplorer 2.0 and EDI were offering a long distance version of the hunter rail car. Same basic diesel hydraulic solution and internal layout that has been going around since the 90's. The CAF is a more modern diesel electric version with significantly upgraded interior options. There was nothing stopping either company from providing something a little more modern with diesel electric propulsion. Why did they offer up the same old same old?

The old way of a government organisation developing a train is dead in the water in NSW in 2019. The government procures rolling stock and isn't involved in developing it at all. What this means is that in the future the Australian solution has to be competitive to be selected and not rely solely on "Australian made" to be the final choice.

The old way of a government organisation developing a train is dead in the water in NSW in 2019. The government procures rolling stock and isn't involved in developing it at all. What this means is that in the future the Australian solution has to be competitive to be selected and not rely solely on "Australian made" to be the final choice.

not really. government has outsourced but still locked into monopolies of suppliers of modules / units / parts for a train..

I don't think too many commute from Newcastle itself, but they start from around Morriset, my brother's ex used train it to Nth Sydney every day and she was not alone. If you can sleep its ok, I used to from Gosford.

Newcastle has a geographically diverse employment opportunities and much of this is far away from even the most optimistic PT corridors.

Most suburban house holds in Sydney have one car for every adult, why would Newcastle be any different?

Anyway its clear the context of your comments are actually not about PT, but lack of employment options. PT in an unemployment ghetto is useless.

Not too many people currently commute form Newcastle, but form some of the things I've read here, it seems as though some think it's okay for other cities to have no employment opportunities and to have everyone commute to Sydney. Morriset is probably at the extreme of what can be considered reasonable, Central coast is reasonable to commute from though, as it Wollongong (with that being said, Wollongong has the perfect layout for PT).

Newcastle has very little employment opportunities, it was once the home of manufacturing, but we all know where that went, hat do you mean by 'geographically diverse employment opportunities', industrial areas? mines?

With the every increasing cost of living which is making people push for higher wages (which some way will decrease employment opportunities even more so), I doubt people will continue to own multiple vehicles for much longer (car ownership being a households biggest cost outside of housing), and in Newcastle it's not just every mature age adult owning a car, it's not uncommon for the majority of people to get their first car the instant they turn 17 due to unusable public transport - simply put, most employers in Newcastle do not like to hire people who don't have a car (even for young people in entry-level work), compare this to Sydney where public transport is usable.
Once again, this would be acceptable in a small rural town in regional Australia, but in a sprawling city of almost 400K, it's simply inexcusable.

This topic and my comments are about public transport, it' just the employment issues can stem from public transport, in this case, it's about how small businesses who rely on foot traffic will struggle in a car dependent environment, and how employers only favour applicants with cars (and how do you get a car without a job? come from a rich family of course) when PT is unusable.

Ethan, one of the big things that you need to realise is what I have said in the past as has RTT, and you also recognise it as well but the rose coloured glasses cloud your thinking in the reality of Newcastle's importance and benefits.

I have lived much of my life in the Western Suburbs of Sydney, on the South Coast at Werri Beach, at Werris Creek prior to being medically retired, then at Tahlee for 3 years on Port Stephens with no PT, then to Taree, a few buses, back to the Western Suburbs in Sydney, Wadalba on the Central Coast and now at Raworth near East Maitland.

My wife and I go to Sydney by PT and car depending on the need and where to, when driving down and this also applies on several areas along the MI and the connections, there are a heck of a lot of cars parked at convenient spots at each of the locations from Morisset, and the Sparks road turn off and the one to Tuggerah where car pooling is very popular as against using PT.  A few months back there was a big issue at Asquith and Berowra station areas where locals were forced out of the car parking facilities by people from the CC driving there to catch suburban services, as no car parking of sufficient size is available along the line, even Woy Woy often means a long walk if using a car to park and catch a train.

Sydney is still growing at a rapid rate, the Illawarra is likely slowing a bit as is the areas around Maitland, near where we live there are two new smallish estates just being developed, a small acreage area out near Lochinvar was advertised 2 years back and soil was turned, its still in the same condition when it was first announced.  Reality is its too far from the station and there's a lot of land between this location and the village and the station. Closest reality station is Telerah with limited parking and then Maitland which has a full car park.

Finally a large residential area was commenced near 3 years ago on the Hue Hue Road not far from Wyee station, the owner of the land and development started the project and went bust at a point where all the first stage was sold out along with much of stage 2, 4 months ago work was restarted finally under another owner and developer. Wyee station is to get a lift as a part relief owing to the largish retirement complex at Bethshan, many people would like to travel by train but the high steps are a turn off especially on the eastern side of the station, but one can only wonder how many more will use the station when the lift is finished. If the new estate goes boom, a different story but most trains don't stop there, for peak services.

It would not matter how much improvements were made to the regionals on the outskirts (sort of) from the main Sydney basin as there are people who will choose to use PT and there will be those who will choose to drive and in many cases car pool, the testament to that is the traffic chaos on every major road in and around Sydney, and in one primary spot in the Hunter at Hexham bridge for 3/4 an hour in the morning, and at Jesmond, some at Charlestown and that's it.

No matter how much can be poured into any of the modes of transport it will never be enough, be that with metro's or trams, along with trains, and buses.

The old way of a government organisation developing a train is dead in the water in NSW in 2019. The government procures rolling stock and isn't involved in developing it at all. What this means is that in the future the Australian solution has to be competitive to be selected and not rely solely on "Australian made" to be the final choice.

not really. government has outsourced but still locked into monopolies of suppliers of modules / units / parts for a train..

What monopoly of suppliers are you talking about? We have several options in bombardier, EDI, UGL, Alstom and now CAF. All of these companies had a chance to tender and in this case the best solution was chosen. Bombardier pulled out because they quickly realised that a fluffed up vlocity was not going to cut the mustard and EDI lost out because there solution was basically just a hunter rail car done up for long distance.

EDI lost out because their solution was basically just a hunter rail car done up for long distance.
But UGL built the Hunter cars.
And they were in the winning consortium, weren't they?

Peter

What monopoly of suppliers are you talking about?.

the asset-standards-authority list - takes some time and money to get on the list and is a must use in any government contract..afik only one company powers all the trains under the wires

Newcastle gets similar frequency to many parts of Sydney that isn't state transit. For instance the route 14 newcastle to swansea heads gets a half hour to 1 hour frequency depending on time of day which is exactly the same an many bus routes where I live in south western Sydney. The lack of services late at night also occur in many parts of western and south western sydney.

This perception of bias is just the market fulfilling a need where there are hundreds of thousands of people a day using the service. Without these bus services Sydney would be grid locked and unable to move. Nowhere in Newcastle or Wollongong is anywhere near that type of congestion. This is not to say that I don't think there could be improvements but just that the market in Sydney dictates this need for services instead of a want of services.

Bombardier were offering Xplorer 2.0 and EDI were offering a long distance version of the hunter rail car. Same basic diesel hydraulic solution and internal layout that has been going around since the 90's. The CAF is a more modern diesel electric version with significantly upgraded interior options. There was nothing stopping either company from providing something a little more modern with diesel electric propulsion. Why did they offer up the same old same old?

The old way of a government organisation developing a train is dead in the water in NSW in 2019. The government procures rolling stock and isn't involved in developing it at all. What this means is that in the future the Australian solution has to be competitive to be selected and not rely solely on "Australian made" to be the final choice.

I'm aware that some parts of Sydney receive Newcastle-level service, but the facts are:
-Sydney has infrastructure, Newcastle has no infrastructure
-Sydney is continuously getting new infrastructure, Newcastle has had infrastructure removed
-Not one single piece of local (unrelated to Sydney) public transport infrastructure has been constructed outside of Sydney in the 21st century.

Now obviously Sydney has the largest population in the country and warrants every piece of infrastructure it gets and needs more, as I mentioned at the start of this topic, people are almost falling off platforms at Town Hall station.
But that doesn't mean that Sydney should be the ONLY place to receive infrastructure.

Also, the need for services comes from several different issues, you can't just say that Sydney is gridlocked and Newcastle isn't so Newcastle doesn't need usable PT. Look at the cost of living for example, it's a paradox that the only places affordable transport have unaffordable housing.

As for the regional fleet manufacturing, if the government was truly committed to local manufacturing, they could have said to EDI or UGL that CAF is offering xyz, can you please construct a train with xyz.

Ethan, one of the big things that you need to realise is what I have said in the past as has RTT, and you also recognise it as well but the rose coloured glasses cloud your thinking in the reality of Newcastle's importance and benefits.

I have lived much of my life in the Western Suburbs of Sydney, on the South Coast at Werri Beach, at Werris Creek prior to being medically retired, then at Tahlee for 3 years on Port Stephens with no PT, then to Taree, a few buses, back to the Western Suburbs in Sydney, Wadalba on the Central Coast and now at Raworth near East Maitland.

My wife and I go to Sydney by PT and car depending on the need and where to, when driving down and this also applies on several areas along the MI and the connections, there are a heck of a lot of cars parked at convenient spots at each of the locations from Morisset, and the Sparks road turn off and the one to Tuggerah where car pooling is very popular as against using PT.  A few months back there was a big issue at Asquith and Berowra station areas where locals were forced out of the car parking facilities by people from the CC driving there to catch suburban services, as no car parking of sufficient size is available along the line, even Woy Woy often means a long walk if using a car to park and catch a train.

Sydney is still growing at a rapid rate, the Illawarra is likely slowing a bit as is the areas around Maitland, near where we live there are two new smallish estates just being developed, a small acreage area out near Lochinvar was advertised 2 years back and soil was turned, its still in the same condition when it was first announced.  Reality is its too far from the station and there's a lot of land between this location and the village and the station. Closest reality station is Telerah with limited parking and then Maitland which has a full car park.

Finally a large residential area was commenced near 3 years ago on the Hue Hue Road not far from Wyee station, the owner of the land and development started the project and went bust at a point where all the first stage was sold out along with much of stage 2, 4 months ago work was restarted finally under another owner and developer. Wyee station is to get a lift as a part relief owing to the largish retirement complex at Bethshan, many people would like to travel by train but the high steps are a turn off especially on the eastern side of the station, but one can only wonder how many more will use the station when the lift is finished. If the new estate goes boom, a different story but most trains don't stop there, for peak services.

It would not matter how much improvements were made to the regionals on the outskirts (sort of) from the main Sydney basin as there are people who will choose to use PT and there will be those who will choose to drive and in many cases car pool, the testament to that is the traffic chaos on every major road in and around Sydney, and in one primary spot in the Hunter at Hexham bridge for 3/4 an hour in the morning, and at Jesmond, some at Charlestown and that's it.

No matter how much can be poured into any of the modes of transport it will never be enough, be that with metro's or trams, along with trains, and buses.

The examples you are talking about the commute to Sydney, not local PT. The topic of this thread is if the government is being too 'Sydney-centric' with PT as they build numerous of much needed projects, and only provides bare-bones obligatory service elsewhere, the Sydney infrastructure is obviously the most important to support the rapidly growing population and to take pressure of the current overcrowded services, but does that mean the government should refuse to upgrade and build infrastructure elsewhere?

In terms of local travel in Newcastle, the all stop services carry primarily air and the occasional pensioner from ghost stations and don't fill up until they reach the Central Coast to take passengers to Sydney. I remember you talking about how stations such as Cockle Creek, Teralba, Booragul, and Kotara have very little patronage, which is true, yet the government will always be required to serve these stations unless a Fassifern-Hexham bypass closes the line completely,

but what is the Newcastle benefiting solution? close the local stations and build larger commuter car parks at the Sydney stops to aid Sydney commuters? OR upgrade the service frequency and build new local stations at local destinations like Kotara and Glendale and improve connections with the Hunter Line to actually make local services usable?

And is the government being too 'Sydney-centric' by refusing to spend the money to build new infrastructure, all while spending who knows what amount to maintain ghost stations and run trains that transport primarily air and empty seats?

Will some people still choose to drive if service are made usable? of course, same goes in Sydney, and that's their choice, but public transport would be an option if local service were improved outside of Sydney.
Mabye it would lower the ever increasing cost of living since familes could live in a city like Newcastle with affordable housing, and not need to have the unaffordable expense of owning 4 cars.

Can we ever provide enough services? no, but we can certainly provide more than we are doing now.
Would it cost a lot of money? yes it would, but how much do we spend maintaing stations that are lucky to get more than 5 passengers a day? and run trains that can't even get 10 people on them? so why not spend that money on a service that people can actually use?

I'm aware that some parts of Sydney receive Newcastle-level service, but the facts are:
-Sydney has infrastructure, Newcastle has no infrastructure
-Sydney is continuously getting new infrastructure, Newcastle has had infrastructure removed
-Not one single piece of local (unrelated to Sydney) public transport infrastructure has been constructed outside of Sydney in the 21st century.

Now obviously Sydney has the largest population in the country and warrants every piece of infrastructure it gets and needs more, as I mentioned at the start of this topic, people are almost falling off platforms at Town Hall station.
But that doesn't mean that Sydney should be the ONLY place to receive infrastructure.

Also, the need for services comes from several different issues, you can't just say that Sydney is gridlocked and Newcastle isn't so Newcastle doesn't need usable PT. Look at the cost of living for example, it's a paradox that the only places affordable transport have unaffordable housing.

As for the regional fleet manufacturing, if the government was truly committed to local manufacturing, they could have said to EDI or UGL that CAF is offering xyz, can you please construct a train with xyz.

The examples you are talking about the commute to Sydney, not local PT. The topic of this thread is if the government is being too 'Sydney-centric' with PT as they build numerous of much needed projects, and only provides bare-bones obligatory service elsewhere, the Sydney infrastructure is obviously the most important to support the rapidly growing population and to take pressure of the current overcrowded services, but does that mean the government should refuse to upgrade and build infrastructure elsewhere?

In terms of local travel in Newcastle, the all stop services carry primarily air and the occasional pensioner from ghost stations and don't fill up until they reach the Central Coast to take passengers to Sydney. I remember you talking about how stations such as Cockle Creek, Teralba, Booragul, and Kotara have very little patronage, which is true, yet the government will always be required to serve these stations unless a Fassifern-Hexham bypass closes the line completely,

but what is the Newcastle benefiting solution? close the local stations and build larger commuter car parks at the Sydney stops to aid Sydney commuters? OR upgrade the service frequency and build new local stations at local destinations like Kotara and Glendale and improve connections with the Hunter Line to actually make local services usable?

And is the government being too 'Sydney-centric' by refusing to spend the money to build new infrastructure, all while spending who knows what amount to maintain ghost stations and run trains that transport primarily air and empty seats?

Will some people still choose to drive if service are made usable? of course, same goes in Sydney, and that's their choice, but public transport would be an option if local service were improved outside of Sydney.
Mabye it would lower the ever increasing cost of living since familes could live in a city like Newcastle with affordable housing, and not need to have the unaffordable expense of owning 4 cars.

Can we ever provide enough services? no, but we can certainly provide more than we are doing now.
Would it cost a lot of money? yes it would, but how much do we spend maintaing stations that are lucky to get more than 5 passengers a day? and run trains that can't even get 10 people on them? so why not spend that money on a service that people can actually use?

A few facts

1)
Population Sydney +4m and growing
Population Newcastle -400k and at best stable

Warning number 1, why PT is being built in Sydney

2)
New rail being built in Sydney
NWRL and now City Metro, first greenfield line built in Sydney since ESR (70's) excluding the East Hills extension (80's) and SWRL (2000's).

Why is the Metro being built? Because over 20,000 people per hour (1 x 8 car DD train/3min) are entering the city from the nth side and the NW suburbs contain more than the population of Newcastle and growing faster than Newcastle and all drive/bus in mostly a common direction to city via ECRL.

If you can find anywhere in Newcastle that justifies a multiple $B railway line, let us know and were would you even run it to/from.

As you said, we run trains to stations in Newcastle that people don't use. In Sydney they get used, so they get more money.

3)
Newcastle asked for the city railway to be closed and replaced with a tram, you have got your wireless tram, I think its even free, it will no doubt be extended, enjoy!

4)
Toronto line
- I checked WAZE, Railway parade isn't a parking lot, it won't happen

5) train frequency into Newcastle (sorry Wickham interchange), yes from south could be improved, write to your local MP, provide a potential solution that won't cost $100M, it may actually be looked at.

6) station placing may also be improved, write to your local member, as above. Again, provide potential solutions, not complaints, local MP's are not railway freaks like us.

7)
Single car ownership in Greater Sydney is only 1-2% points less than Newcastle, but actually less for 3 car ownership so your claim doesn't stack up.
https://profile.id.com.au/australia/car-ownership?WebID=250
https://profile.id.com.au/newcastle/car-ownership
ie
1 car Sydney - 35%, Newcastle 36%
3 car 15%, 14%

8)
99% of your comments are about lack of local jobs. PT is useless if there are no jobs. Trust I've lived through a recession, its easier to get a seat.
Yes PT is not as good as inner Sydney, but its no worse than outer Sydney.

9)
Cost of living in Newcastle is $1600/mth lower than Sydney, so you can afford to buy a car. Enjoy!
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Australia&city1=Sydney&country2=Australia&city2=Newcastle

10)
The CAF trains is a small order, I have no real issue buying imported. However the Sydney trains both Metro and DD should be local.

EDI lost out because their solution was basically just a hunter rail car done up for long distance.
But UGL built the Hunter cars.
And they were in the winning consortium, weren't they?

Peter

Sorry my mistake. I have no idea then what EDI proposed although the qld tilt trains are made by edi and so maybe the diesel version was offered by EDI.

Newcastle gets similar frequency to many parts of Sydney that isn't state transit. For instance the route 14 newcastle to swansea heads gets a half hour to 1 hour frequency depending on time of day which is exactly the same an many bus routes where I live in south western Sydney. The lack of services late at night also occur in many parts of western and south western sydney.

This perception of bias is just the market fulfilling a need where there are hundreds of thousands of people a day using the service. Without these bus services Sydney would be grid locked and unable to move. Nowhere in Newcastle or Wollongong is anywhere near that type of congestion. This is not to say that I don't think there could be improvements but just that the market in Sydney dictates this need for services instead of a want of services.

Bombardier were offering Xplorer 2.0 and EDI were offering a long distance version of the hunter rail car. Same basic diesel hydraulic solution and internal layout that has been going around since the 90's. The CAF is a more modern diesel electric version with significantly upgraded interior options. There was nothing stopping either company from providing something a little more modern with diesel electric propulsion. Why did they offer up the same old same old?

The old way of a government organisation developing a train is dead in the water in NSW in 2019. The government procures rolling stock and isn't involved in developing it at all. What this means is that in the future the Australian solution has to be competitive to be selected and not rely solely on "Australian made" to be the final choice.

I'm aware that some parts of Sydney receive Newcastle-level service, but the facts are:
-Sydney has infrastructure, Newcastle has no infrastructure
-Sydney is continuously getting new infrastructure, Newcastle has had infrastructure removed
-Not one single piece of local (unrelated to Sydney) public transport infrastructure has been constructed outside of Sydney in the 21st century.

Now obviously Sydney has the largest population in the country and warrants every piece of infrastructure it gets and needs more, as I mentioned at the start of this topic, people are almost falling off platforms at Town Hall station.
But that doesn't mean that Sydney should be the ONLY place to receive infrastructure.

Also, the need for services comes from several different issues, you can't just say that Sydney is gridlocked and Newcastle isn't so Newcastle doesn't need usable PT. Look at the cost of living for example, it's a paradox that the only places affordable transport have unaffordable housing.

As for the regional fleet manufacturing, if the government was truly committed to local manufacturing, they could have said to EDI or UGL that CAF is offering xyz, can you please construct a train with xyz.

Ethan, one of the big things that you need to realise is what I have said in the past as has RTT, and you also recognise it as well but the rose coloured glasses cloud your thinking in the reality of Newcastle's importance and benefits.

I have lived much of my life in the Western Suburbs of Sydney, on the South Coast at Werri Beach, at Werris Creek prior to being medically retired, then at Tahlee for 3 years on Port Stephens with no PT, then to Taree, a few buses, back to the Western Suburbs in Sydney, Wadalba on the Central Coast and now at Raworth near East Maitland.

My wife and I go to Sydney by PT and car depending on the need and where to, when driving down and this also applies on several areas along the MI and the connections, there are a heck of a lot of cars parked at convenient spots at each of the locations from Morisset, and the Sparks road turn off and the one to Tuggerah where car pooling is very popular as against using PT.  A few months back there was a big issue at Asquith and Berowra station areas where locals were forced out of the car parking facilities by people from the CC driving there to catch suburban services, as no car parking of sufficient size is available along the line, even Woy Woy often means a long walk if using a car to park and catch a train.

Sydney is still growing at a rapid rate, the Illawarra is likely slowing a bit as is the areas around Maitland, near where we live there are two new smallish estates just being developed, a small acreage area out near Lochinvar was advertised 2 years back and soil was turned, its still in the same condition when it was first announced.  Reality is its too far from the station and there's a lot of land between this location and the village and the station. Closest reality station is Telerah with limited parking and then Maitland which has a full car park.

Finally a large residential area was commenced near 3 years ago on the Hue Hue Road not far from Wyee station, the owner of the land and development started the project and went bust at a point where all the first stage was sold out along with much of stage 2, 4 months ago work was restarted finally under another owner and developer. Wyee station is to get a lift as a part relief owing to the largish retirement complex at Bethshan, many people would like to travel by train but the high steps are a turn off especially on the eastern side of the station, but one can only wonder how many more will use the station when the lift is finished. If the new estate goes boom, a different story but most trains don't stop there, for peak services.

It would not matter how much improvements were made to the regionals on the outskirts (sort of) from the main Sydney basin as there are people who will choose to use PT and there will be those who will choose to drive and in many cases car pool, the testament to that is the traffic chaos on every major road in and around Sydney, and in one primary spot in the Hunter at Hexham bridge for 3/4 an hour in the morning, and at Jesmond, some at Charlestown and that's it.

No matter how much can be poured into any of the modes of transport it will never be enough, be that with metro's or trams, along with trains, and buses.

The examples you are talking about the commute to Sydney, not local PT. The topic of this thread is if the government is being too 'Sydney-centric' with PT as they build numerous of much needed projects, and only provides bare-bones obligatory service elsewhere, the Sydney infrastructure is obviously the most important to support the rapidly growing population and to take pressure of the current overcrowded services, but does that mean the government should refuse to upgrade and build infrastructure elsewhere?

In terms of local travel in Newcastle, the all stop services carry primarily air and the occasional pensioner from ghost stations and don't fill up until they reach the Central Coast to take passengers to Sydney. I remember you talking about how stations such as Cockle Creek, Teralba, Booragul, and Kotara have very little patronage, which is true, yet the government will always be required to serve these stations unless a Fassifern-Hexham bypass closes the line completely,

but what is the Newcastle benefiting solution? close the local stations and build larger commuter car parks at the Sydney stops to aid Sydney commuters? OR upgrade the service frequency and build new local stations at local destinations like Kotara and Glendale and improve connections with the Hunter Line to actually make local services usable?

And is the government being too 'Sydney-centric' by refusing to spend the money to build new infrastructure, all while spending who knows what amount to maintain ghost stations and run trains that transport primarily air and empty seats?

Will some people still choose to drive if service are made usable? of course, same goes in Sydney, and that's their choice, but public transport would be an option if local service were improved outside of Sydney.
Mabye it would lower the ever increasing cost of living since familes could live in a city like Newcastle with affordable housing, and not need to have the unaffordable expense of owning 4 cars.

Can we ever provide enough services? no, but we can certainly provide more than we are doing now.
Would it cost a lot of money? yes it would, but how much do we spend maintaing stations that are lucky to get more than 5 passengers a day? and run trains that can't even get 10 people on them? so why not spend that money on a service that people can actually use?

Everything I have mentioned is relevant to your topic,,especially as you choose to include comparisons with the other lines in the discussion, you having named them in this and at least two other posts that you have started.

Any government puts money into the areas of MOST need especially in the area of PT, the reference to certain stations on the CC line are ones you proposed to have at least 3 other stations built in the same areas and your current premise in this blog is deleting some locations and inserting others in their places.

The simple facts are that Sydney is a PT centric city owing to the population it has and it continues to grow and have needs for proper PT infrastructure and services, outer areas in Sydney are not much different to those in NCLE and the Hunter areas, as they support the size of the services dictated by the number of passengers.

As for infrastructure and jobs, much of what kept the Hunter region in work was torn down owing to the need for the land to serve other businesses, the steelworks closed because the land was needed and cheaper to make in Port Kembla, Sydney has also lost a lot of heavy industries and workshops that have gone interstate and overseas as well.

Some businesses in Sydney have shifted locations and often that means the workers have to drive as against catching PT as its not convenient for them either.

I'm aware that some parts of Sydney receive Newcastle-level service, but the facts are:
-Sydney has infrastructure, Newcastle has no infrastructure
-Sydney is continuously getting new infrastructure, Newcastle has had infrastructure removed
-Not one single piece of local (unrelated to Sydney) public transport infrastructure has been constructed outside of Sydney in the 21st century.

If your expecting a new metro in Newcastle Ethan you can keep dreaming as that isn't happening. The old remnant coal mine lines are not going to be re opened as they are bike paths now. What new infrastrucuture on the scale of being built in Sydney would be even remotely viable in Newcastle or the Illawarra. Sydney gets new infrastrucuture because there is demand for it. Without it Sydney would come to a complete stand still.

Even still there is the possibility of an expanded light rail network in the future for newcastle.

Bombardier pulled out because they quickly realised that a fluffed up vlocity was not going to cut the mustard

Out of interest, are there any docs available on what they (or EDI) were actually offering? I would have been pretty surprised if Bombardier tried to rehash the VLo for a very different job given they've got other products (the Talent family for example) that would seem more appropriate.

Bombardier pulled out because they quickly realised that a fluffed up vlocity was not going to cut the mustard

Out of interest, are there any docs available on what they (or EDI) were actually offering? I would have been pretty surprised if Bombardier tried to rehash the VLo for a very different job given they've got other products (the Talent family for example) that would seem more appropriate.

The Talent is an EMU and not a DMU like the vlocity. It is also low floor and considering the vlocity is already being built in victoria and is the same family as the Xplorer why would they have offered anything different then this. Basically they were offering a proper long distance version of the vlocity.

Oh and who says the NSW Government doesn't do things for regional communities. https://www.facebook.com/NSWRoads/videos/338699416807020/UzpfSTEwMDAwMTQ0MzY1NDI3MTozMzEyNzgwOTU4NzQ3Njk0/?multi_permalinks=3321512061207917&notif_id=1560854271205124&notif_t=group_highlights

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Guys, we have been constantly repeating ourselves to each other all throughout the topic, you are misunderstanding the things I am saying and perhaps I have been misunderstanding some of the things you have been saying. So I would like to respond do you all at once in dot points:

• I would never suggest to stop building infrastructure in Sydney to allocate resources elsewhere, Sydney needs MORE infrastructure; Northern Beaches rail line, rail lines following major arterial roads such as King Georges Road and Victoria Road, ESR extension, SWRL extension, etc.
  The only thing I would suggest to not build so resources can be allocated elsewhere would be High Speed Rail if it were ever seriously considered, as the cost of high speed rail would be equal to the cost of all the required infrastructure in Sydney, Wollongong Newcastle, and leave enough left over to upgrades existing rail to MSR.

• I would never suggest building the same amount or same kinds of infrastructure that Sydney has in Newcastle, you could never justify a turn-up-and-go 4 minute frequency metro or the world's longest trams or 8 carriage DD trains in Newcastle. Sydney has 4M people and growing and needs these services that couldn't be justified in Newcastle. The issue is that Newcastle has NOTHING, the issue is not that it doesn't have the same as Sydney.

• Before anything else is built, the current services need to be fixed and made usable. Fix the line between Newcastle and Fassifern for local services by building stations next to the local destinations the line passes, improving pedestrian access to existing stations, improve connections with the Hunter Line, and improving frequencies to 3 or 4 trains per hour. At the same time, make improvements bus, ferry, and light rail services.
  See how patronage improves, and then and ONLY then, talk about building new lines.

• Light rail extension as opposed to building new lines (current line should still be upgraded) would be sufficient provided it turned into an actual network with multiple lines and serving all major areas. Light rail is probably are more suitable service than heavy rail in a city the size and population of Newcastle or Wollongong, assuming the services would be faster or the equal speed of driving.
  Although heavy rail might actually be CHEAPER since corridors have been preserved - but it would face local opposition from people who wouldn't want to lose their bike tracks or have trains running in their backyard, despite the fact that having rail lines would do better for the community than a walking track in an unwalkable city.

• Regarding cars and the cost of living, the big issue is the REQUIREMENT to own 4 cars to get buy out of Sydney, even in Sydney people will always choose to own multiple cars, but it's reasonable to get by with just 1 in many cases.
  The inexcusable problem is the fact that the services are so poor (ranked 5th worst in the state) that hiring managers, even for 17 year olds, don't like to hire people who catch public transport, requiring people to get a car before getting a job, instead of getting a job to pay for a car, and since the only way to get a car without a job is to come from a family wealthy enough to pay for all the costs, it's clear to see the issue.
  RTT_Rules pointed out that you don't need to be rich to buy a car, but buying the car is the easy part, all of the associated costs of insurance, registration, maintenance, repairs, servicing, etc can cost on average $500 a month, and you are somehow meant to pay this before getting a job?
  This might be excusable in rural Australia or a regional town, but in a costal city of 400K, it's not.

• Regarding the cost of improving services, will it cost money? yes. Billions? hopefully not. But how much money does it cost now to run services that carry primarily air and empty seats and the occasional pensioner? It is cheaper to run empty services than to construct usable ones? probably, but what's more sustainable.
  In fact, the services are so underutilized since local destinations have no stations and existing stations lack the basic pedestrian infrastucture for them to even be accessible, that more people advocate for closure of local stations than improvements, which solution sounds best though:
        -close local stations such as Booragul, Teralba, Cockle Creek, Kotara, and Adamstown, and use the line almost soley for the Sydney commute
        -once the Fassifern-Hexham line is built, close the line entirely and turn it into a rail trail and construct a large commuter car park at Fassifern
        -construct new local stations and upgrade accessibility to existing stations, and improve service frequency between Newcastle and Fassifern

• Regarding the geographically diverse employment opportunities, while I have said in the past that few worked in the CBD, there is still enough people working there to make some Hunter Line services run standing room only (according to a6et), so why couldn't a proper local service from Fassifern do the same thing? also, new stations along the existing line will help with proving PT to some of the geographically diverse employment opportunities.

• Regarding current patronage, you rely on current patronage statistics of any form to get an idea of how many could use improved services since current services are almost unusable (Keolis Downer recently announced that three bus routes 41, 43, and 48 would have the service frequency dropped to every 2 hours due to an expansion of the on demand service which is NOT cost effective PT).
  Who want to rely on a train that you need to risk your life to cross the road to access the station, or a bus that if you miss, you are either stuck for an hour or 2 or until the next morning waiting for the next service which mean an expensive Uber ride?

• This topic is entirely about local public transport and is unrelated to the Sydney commute, while it's clear that intercity/interurban routes need realignment and curve easing, and parking upgrades are needed at Gosford and Woy Woy.

Hope this clears things up a little bit, so we don't have to feel like we need to keep repeating ourselves to each other, and making this topic a burden.

Have you got examples of comparable cities with the level of service you're advocating?

Something to consider when proposing to use old rail alignments.

1) Do they go where you want them to and comparable to road in route km?

2) Assuming an average stop pattern of 1km, how many stops for the branch or route from terminus or central point. ie both Brisbane and Sydney have short suburban lines with few stops that struggle to provide a high enough frequency and loading's. Moral of the story, if yuo cannot fill a bus, why run a train?

Have you got examples of comparable cities with the level of service you're advocating?

Have you got examples of comparable cities with the level of service you're advocating? Cities with populations smaller than that of Newcastle have full metro systems, the most notable examples are Rennes, France (population 222,104) and Lausanne, Switzerland (population 139,056), this is significantly HIGHER level of than I would ever advocate for in Newcastle as although the population is there, the density isn't.
US cities are more comparable to Newcastle and even then Atlanta, Georgia (population 498,044) and Cleveland, Ohio (population 383,793) have rail systems.
And hitting even closer to home, the northern portion of Wollongong, NSW (population 299,203) with it's poor services and half the population of Newcastle does better, maintaining an hourly local service on weekends, compared to Newcatle which has no local service on weekends.

I'm not saying that Newcastle should have a metro system like these European counterparts, I'm saying that the PT there should be usable. The current locations of local stations represent local patronage at the time the line was built, but as Newcastle has spread out and grown, the PT never adapted to the change, and now the line passes local destinations with no stations and the stations that do existing are inaccessible as they lack the basic pedestrian infrastructure to be usable, making local rail services not just poor, but unusable.
The bus network is dying too, the old donut-shaped State Transit bus network never worked with it's indirect routes, poor connection times, and not connecting with trains (unless by pure coincidence), so the NSW government sold it off, and at first things seemed hopeful with routes 28 and 29 connecting with trains at Broadmeadow and Cardiff, but now it's clear what the privatization has done as Keolis Downer is cutting three opal bus routes (41, 43 and 48) to two hourly frequency in favour of their premium on demand service.

Something to consider when proposing to use old rail alignments.

1) Do they go where you want them to and comparable to road in route km?

2) Assuming an average stop pattern of 1km, how many stops for the branch or route from terminus or central point. ie both Brisbane and Sydney have short suburban lines with few stops that struggle to provide a high enough frequency and loading's. Moral of the story, if yuo cannot fill a bus, why run a train?

Of course those are things you need to consider;


-I would say the Toronto Line does pretty well in that regard, with Fassifern being what I would call the last station in the metropolitan area, it would be the logical place to terminate frequent (3-4 trains per hour) local services, so extending to Toronto would be a no-brainer as while Fassifern station is kind of isolated, the old Toronto station is the heart of the suburb, and could be used as a rail-ferry interchange (Lake Macquarie countil does want a ferry network).
But the line would only work if Newcastle-Toronto was a complete suburban route complete with new stations and old ones mad accessible, no Carlingford-style branch operation.

-Belmont line could work as the former terminus is near the commercial area and the other suburbs it runs through are difficult to serve by buses. The line could also be extended to Swansea.
Light rail along the Pacific Highway as an alternative would be more expensive due to having to rip up the road, but has the advantage of running through Charlestown (which has a greater business turnover than the Newcastle CBD), but what is the maxium speed an on-street light rail vehicle can go? if the service is significantly slower than driving, who would use it?

-The old line to Wallsend had it's station in the heard of the suburb, but at the time, Wallsend itself was the only station, the former line does pass right by the entrance of the University of Newcastle and would provide a better station than Warabrook, and a station at Birmingham Gardens could serve residential areas, but Wallsend-Newcastle would need to be a complete suburban route with no Carlingford-style branch operation, with new stations along the existing line at Waratah West (serve Mater Hospital and surrounding area) and Islington (serve Newcastle TAFE and surrounding area).
I'm not too sure how this line would work, would need a serious study and the existing lines need to be upgrades before any new line is built or rebuilt.

-The old line to West Wallsend (which was the only one not be converted to a rail trail) ran through areas that are still pretty isolated and low density, and it would be difficult to justify rebuild of this one, although it could constrain development to surrounding a potential line, instead of having isolated suburbs like Cameron Park and Fletcher pop up which are difficult to serve by PT due to their isolated nature.

As I mentioned, before building any new line, it would be important to fix what we have first, upgrade the existing lines with the right stations in the right locations, the right frequency and connection times, and make the existing stations accessible via pedestrian infrastructure. And then look at the business case for new lines.

Have you got examples of comparable cities with the level of service you're advocating?

Have you got examples of comparable cities with the level of service you're advocating? Cities with populations smaller than that of Newcastle have full metro systems, the most notable examples are Rennes, France (population 222,104) and Lausanne, Switzerland (population 139,056), this is significantly HIGHER level of than I would ever advocate for in Newcastle as although the population is there, the density isn't.
US cities are more comparable to Newcastle and even then Atlanta, Georgia (population 498,044) and Cleveland, Ohio (population 383,793) have rail systems.
And hitting even closer to home, the northern portion of Wollongong, NSW (population 299,203) with it's poor services and half the population of Newcastle does better, maintaining an hourly local service on weekends, compared to Newcatle which has no local service on weekends.

I'm not saying that Newcastle should have a metro system like these European counterparts, I'm saying that the PT there should be usable. The current locations of local stations represent local patronage at the time the line was built, but as Newcastle has spread out and grown, the PT never adapted to the change, and now the line passes local destinations with no stations and the stations that do existing are inaccessible as they lack the basic pedestrian infrastructure to be usable, making local rail services not just poor, but unusable.
The bus network is dying too, the old donut-shaped State Transit bus network never worked with it's indirect routes, poor connection times, and not connecting with trains (unless by pure coincidence), so the NSW government sold it off, and at first things seemed hopeful with routes 28 and 29 connecting with trains at Broadmeadow and Cardiff, but now it's clear what the privatization has done as Keolis Downer is cutting three opal bus routes (41, 43 and 48) to two hourly frequency in favour of their premium on demand service.

Something to consider when proposing to use old rail alignments.

1) Do they go where you want them to and comparable to road in route km?

2) Assuming an average stop pattern of 1km, how many stops for the branch or route from terminus or central point. ie both Brisbane and Sydney have short suburban lines with few stops that struggle to provide a high enough frequency and loading's. Moral of the story, if yuo cannot fill a bus, why run a train?

Of course those are things you need to consider;


-I would say the Toronto Line does pretty well in that regard, with Fassifern being what I would call the last station in the metropolitan area, it would be the logical place to terminate frequent (3-4 trains per hour) local services, so extending to Toronto would be a no-brainer as while Fassifern station is kind of isolated, the old Toronto station is the heart of the suburb, and could be used as a rail-ferry interchange (Lake Macquarie countil does want a ferry network).
But the line would only work if Newcastle-Toronto was a complete suburban route complete with new stations and old ones mad accessible, no Carlingford-style branch operation.

-Belmont line could work as the former terminus is near the commercial area and the other suburbs it runs through are difficult to serve by buses. The line could also be extended to Swansea.
Light rail along the Pacific Highway as an alternative would be more expensive due to having to rip up the road, but has the advantage of running through Charlestown (which has a greater business turnover than the Newcastle CBD), but what is the maxium speed an on-street light rail vehicle can go? if the service is significantly slower than driving, who would use it?

-The old line to Wallsend had it's station in the heard of the suburb, but at the time, Wallsend itself was the only station, the former line does pass right by the entrance of the University of Newcastle and would provide a better station than Warabrook, and a station at Birmingham Gardens could serve residential areas, but Wallsend-Newcastle would need to be a complete suburban route with no Carlingford-style branch operation, with new stations along the existing line at Waratah West (serve Mater Hospital and surrounding area) and Islington (serve Newcastle TAFE and surrounding area).
I'm not too sure how this line would work, would need a serious study and the existing lines need to be upgrades before any new line is built or rebuilt.

-The old line to West Wallsend (which was the only one not be converted to a rail trail) ran through areas that are still pretty isolated and low density, and it would be difficult to justify rebuild of this one, although it could constrain development to surrounding a potential line, instead of having isolated suburbs like Cameron Park and Fletcher pop up which are difficult to serve by PT due to their isolated nature.

As I mentioned, before building any new line, it would be important to fix what we have first, upgrade the existing lines with the right stations in the right locations, the right frequency and connection times, and make the existing stations accessible via pedestrian infrastructure. And then look at the business case for new lines.

Lausane  is 1/7 the physical size of Newcastle with extensive high density housing compared to Newcastles mostly detached house on black.

Cleveland and Lausane have something Newcastle doesn't, a city centre, makes it easy to run trains and buses if they have a common direction to go as you follow the route people want to go. Newcastle's employment base is geographically diversified.

Toronto line is dead because it requires a major level crossing.

Other lines, I have no idea, but would they attract the numbers required to justify their construction?