NW METRO - Personal experience

 
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
My boys and I caught the NW metro from Kellyville yesterday( Friday).

- arrived by car before 12, roughly 600 bay carpark at least 110% full and we also parked out of a designated spot.

- elevated station has appearance that they di expect large numbers, but otherwise clean and modern. Its placement is away from anything and walk up traffic would be limited.

- about 20 waiting for train, we had 7min wait and stop at front door. On the train it was lightly loaded but not empty. By Epping it was reasonably loaded, but not more than seats. Overall numbers didnt change a great deal through to Chatswood.

- unlike Dubai metro, there was no one but us looking out the front window.

- arrival to Chatswood, quick cross platform change to waiting NSL train. It would appear in order to ensure no large numbers on the platform the govt has smartly linked the two timetables. Certainly no complaints and a model of how to do other services.

- the trains are not pretty to look at but clearly functional. Has that typical automation feel where it often brakes then accelerates at various locations, where as a manual driven train is more smooth.

- return was via CC train 3:50pm to Epping, certainly better than going vis NSL.

- Waiting at Epping (4:30pm), the Metro arrived packed, but most standing pax alighted, I'd say heading into NW the train was 120% of seating capacity.

- arrival to Kellyville the station carpark was still +90% full. Interesting observations was a number of cars parked empty in kiss'n'ride spots, person (mostly women in office garb and heeks) from train walks up and hops in drivers seat. Those cars were not there when we arrived at midday. Thinking partners must be dropping cars off earlier.

Overall, it's a metro throughout. Function over beauty and will get the job done. Larger station spacing is typical 21st century approach to reduce travel time. Its quick between stations and assumes designed to achieve max speed ASAP. The long straight tunnels are certainly different and you dont see often.

On it's own it will be an odd ball on the network and it's TRUE capability pointless and should have otherwise been left DD. Extension the city had to always happen and will certainly improve it.

The locals tell me "why doesn't it connect with the Richmond line so we can get to Paramatta". I said it before, the Epping to Paramatta line is a huge missed opportunity, hence the extension to Schfields needs to be sooner rather than later.

The very obvious difference in loading between Epping and Chatswood is something I think that will need future thought on how to best resolve. Some trains truncated to Epping or potential future extension of a 2nd branch to Hornsby or Paramatta.

For the people of Bankstown line,  compared to what they have now, the metro conversion will leave them better off, no doubt. For the people west of Bankstown on the Y, the current plan isn't acceptable longterm.

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  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The line will get to the richmond line at schofields eventually and because it will be above ground it will be much cheaper to build then the tunnels under Sydney.

In the meantime the people in the area have the T-way to get to Parramatta and that is a decent service. I have used it after spending time on metro getting photo's. From Rouse hill to Parramatta is only 20 minutes or so by bus and they also have the t-way to blacktown as well. From parramatta I then get a cumberland line service to Liverpool.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

My boys and I caught the NW metro from Kellyville yesterday( Friday).
RTT_Rules


I tried that last school holidays.  But the trip up from Kiama was so long, my wife got sick, and we didn't even get out to Chatswood, having to stop at Nth Sydney.  In the few times I've used the NSL from Nth Sydney to Chastwood, it's like riding a monstorous tram service.  Slow.  Stops everywhere, and for a long time.  Painful.


- arrived by car before 12, roughly 600 bay carpark at least 110% full and we also parked out of a designated spot.

- elevated station has appearance that they di expect large numbers, but otherwise clean and modern. Its placement is away from anything and walk up traffic would be limited.
RTT_Rules

Not that I want to harp on about metros as I usually do, but this illustrates the problem with the mode selection.  The transport task is commuting, getting large masses of people from the vast expanses of dormitories in Sydney's west, to the east where all the employment is.

That's not what metros were ever designed for.  There is an inherent dichotomy in the design requirements as a result.  Something compact designed for high volume, high density use can't be used that way because of the need for all that low volume parking.


- about 20 waiting for train, we had 7min wait and stop at front door.
RTT_Rules

That, I'm very disappointed to hear.  WTF did we go to all the extra expense for, if it's only going to have a 20min frequency?  Or for that matter, a 7min turn around of a fully automated system?  Stinks like automated inefficiencies.


- arrival to Chatswood, quick cross platform change to waiting NSL train. It would appear in order to ensure no large numbers on the platform the govt has smartly linked the two timetables. Certainly no complaints and a model of how to do other services.
RTT_Rules

Perhaps.  But if NWRL has a timetable, then it's not public.  But I'd suggest delays might be arbitrarily thrown into one - or even both - of the systems, probably NWLR, to ensure there is a cross platform change.  

- the trains are not pretty to look at but clearly functional. Has that typical automation feel where it often brakes then accelerates at various locations, where as a manual driven train is more smooth.


- return was via CC train 3:50pm to Epping, certainly better than going vis NSL.
RTT_Rules

WTF, did I read that right?  Where too, from, and I take it direct train on (formerly called) Sector 3?


The very obvious difference in loading between Epping and Chatswood is something I think that will need future thought on how to best resolve.
RTT_Rules

For true inner city single line metros, this is dealt with by having a major traffic source/sink an one end.  A Sydney-Parramatta metro sort of makes sense in this regard.

But a system that goes beyond any city's core, needs branching to achieve sensible loadings - and the branches need to have lower cost to match the lower frequencies.  That's seen in a lot of the NYC subway lines in Brooklyn. Or the PATH system.  And London's UG does branch.  And it's augmented by overground.  As with Paris metro and the RER.

It's a problem of topology, and application of a point to point high density system to a suburban/commuter problem.  Or put another way, metro in Sydney is a solution looking from a problem.

ATM the runtime is acceptable for the form factor.  Whether that remains the case once the line extends into the CBD is the big question.


Some trains truncated to Epping or potential future extension of a 2nd branch to Hornsby or Paramatta.
RTT_Rules

More likely, Hornsby-Epping will be added to the Metro system.  As will Richmond-Schofields.


For the people of Bankstown line,  compared to what they have now, the metro conversion will leave them better off, no doubt. For the people west of Bankstown on the Y, the current plan isn't acceptable longterm.
RTT_Rules


That remains to be seen.  it will depend on what compromises are made to deal with all the issues metro has created/will create.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

the nw metro is not expanding to richmond. It is heading south west towards schofields then st mary's and on to the new airport.

The frequency and the 6 carriages are the issues I have with the system at the moment. There can be 4 trains within 12 minutes and then not another one for 10-15. I'm not sure why this is but if it keeps up there may be a need to bring a driver on board purely to keep a consistent trip when it eventually runs the whole way to bankstown.
  adrian24 Beginner

The metro is a political outcome from promises made, it should have been heavy rail, as was first planned before and after the election of the liberal government, but unfortunately Sydney is now stuck with it for the next 10 to 20 years, by that time the complaints about overcrowding and reliability due to worn-out and obsolete electronic equipment and rolling stock will have become the norm, then a decision will have to be made to re equip.
That will be the nightmare the current government of the day will have to deal with, as it will be near impossible to convert tunnels to handle larger capacity rolling stock
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The metro is a political outcome from promises made, it should have been heavy rail, as was first planned before and after the election of the liberal government, but unfortunately Sydney is now stuck with it for the next 10 to 20 years, by that time the complaints about overcrowding and reliability due to worn-out and obsolete electronic equipment and rolling stock will have become the norm, then a decision will have to be made to re equip.
That will be the nightmare the current government of the day will have to deal with, as it will be near impossible to convert tunnels to handle larger capacity rolling stock
adrian24
You would be a fool to really believe this.

1) The potential capacity is actually higher

2) The trains last 30-40 years elsewhere, why would that not be the case here. After all the only difference is the lack of a drivers cab.

3) The future replacement will be exactly the same, what else do you think they will do?

4) The near 5 star rating in Google seems to indicate people are in general happy with the service

5) As the expected lower operating and construction govt becomes realised, the incentive to go any other direction will evaporate. Remember this is not a LNP thing, the ALP wanted to do the same. No one promised the people a DD line, they were promised a railway.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I tried that last school holidays. But the trip up from Kiama was so long, my wife got sick, and we didn't even get out to Chatswood, having to stop at Nth Sydney. In the few times I've used the NSL from Nth Sydney to Chastwood, it's like riding a monstorous tram service. Slow. Stops everywhere, and for a long time. Painful.
diF01
Thats along way, you'd be keen to try it.

Chatswood to North Sydney is a disaster, I explained in the past the WW twins needs to be by-passed and the Metro doesn't exclude the need for this to occur. Leave the existing route for Nth Syd terminators to continue to St Leonards.

Not that I want to harp on about metros as I usually do, but this illustrates the problem with the mode selection. The transport task is commuting, getting large masses of people from the vast expanses of dormitories in Sydney's west, to the east where all the employment is. That's not what metros were ever designed for. There is an inherent dichotomy in the design requirements as a result. Something compact designed for high volume, high density use can't be used that way because of the need for all that low volume parking.
dif01
The definition of Metro is deceiving, if one exists at all. If we use the classic Paris Metro as the standard, then the stanard has huge variation just within Paris. At the end of the day, its just another train.

If the transport task is commuting, getting large masses of people from the NW to their destination, it does this very well and no different to DD and likely cheaper. Again avoiding to stick to any supposed definition and just looking at what was built. It's functional and does the job.

Perhaps. But if NWRL has a timetable, then it's not public. But I'd suggest delays might be arbitrarily thrown into one - or even both - of the systems, probably NWLR, to ensure there is a cross platform change. - the trains are not pretty to look at but clearly functional. Has that typical automation feel where it often brakes then accelerates at various locations, where as a manual driven train is more smooth.
Dif01
The timetable s public and easily accessed. Just look up the timetable. However if there was a delay or something changed then they might drift off course for a short while. As they don't store a spare set at Chatswood, a delay would have a knock on effect that would take some time to resolve.

WTF, did I read that right? Where too, from, and I take it direct train on (formerly called) Sector 3?
Dif01

Whats the issue? We were at Central and I wanted to go via a CC train to Epping, which I can assure you was not uncommon before or now.


For true inner city single line metros, this is dealt with by having a major traffic source/sink an one end. A Sydney-Parramatta metro sort of makes sense in this regard. But a system that goes beyond any city's core, needs branching to achieve sensible loadings - and the branches need to have lower cost to match the lower frequencies. That's seen in a lot of the NYC subway lines in Brooklyn. Or the PATH system. And London's UG does branch. And it's augmented by overground. As with Paris metro and the RER. It's a problem of topology, and application of a point to point high density system to a suburban/commuter problem. Or put another way, metro in Sydney is a solution looking from a problem. ATM the runtime is acceptable for the form factor. Whether that remains the case once the line extends into the CBD is the big question.
dif01
Said before, there is no such thing as a "true Metro".

The NW Metro works in part because it moves large numbers of people between Epping and Chatswood with very quick dwell times as we saw. Its also a major destination for many on the NW.

The Paris RER is a disaster and makes all the issue of Sydney look pale and why we should avoid going down that path, which is basically pushing capacity beyond reasonable limit. The NWRL is also not the same as the RER with its long underground tunnels that will be replicated all the way to the city and beyond and hence why DD is more expensive.

More likely, Hornsby-Epping will be added to the Metro system. As will Richmond-Schofields
dif01

I tend to agree, I know Sim's said no for the Richmond line, but realistically this line is easier to do than almost anywhere else and the trains very suited and a way to more cheaply increase capacity. However for now, Hornsby I think would likely happen first.

That remains to be seen. it will depend on what compromises are made to deal with all the issues metro has created/will create.
dif01

The problem is the conversion or what ever time gaps between starting to make a change and the final end result and what level of chaos it causes in between.

Overall I don't expect large chunks of Sydney Trains to be converted, but there will be changes due to new Metro lines.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner


WTF, did I read that right? Where too, from, and I take it direct train on (formerly called) Sector 3?

Whats the issue? We were at Central and I wanted to go via a CC train to Epping, which I can assure you was not uncommon before or now.


More likely, Hornsby-Epping will be added to the Metro system. As will Richmond-Schofields

I tend to agree, I know Sim's said no for the Richmond line, but realistically this line is easier to do than almost anywhere else and the trains very suited and a way to more cheaply increase capacity. However for now, Hornsby I think would likely happen first.

RTT_Rules

In reply to these 2 items

1. There are no CC trains to Epping. There are northern line trains to epping but there are no trains that use the CC that go to Epping. The CC is the domain of sector 2. Epping is on sector 3.

2. Plans are already done. Metro will not be going to either hornsby or richmond. It will be going to Western Sydney airport via schofileds and st mary's. https://nsw.liberal.org.au/Our-Plans/Policies/METRO-RAIL-NETWORK
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

WTF, did I read that right? Where too, from, and I take it direct train on (formerly called) Sector 3?

Whats the issue? We were at Central and I wanted to go via a CC train to Epping, which I can assure you was not uncommon before or now.


More likely, Hornsby-Epping will be added to the Metro system. As will Richmond-Schofields

I tend to agree, I know Sim's said no for the Richmond line, but realistically this line is easier to do than almost anywhere else and the trains very suited and a way to more cheaply increase capacity. However for now, Hornsby I think would likely happen first.

In reply to these 2 items

1. There are no CC trains to Epping. There are northern line trains to epping but there are no trains that use the CC that go to Epping. The CC is the domain of sector 2. Epping is on sector 3.

2. Plans are already done. Metro will not be going to either hornsby or richmond. It will be going to Western Sydney airport via schofileds and st mary's. https://nsw.liberal.org.au/Our-Plans/Policies/METRO-RAIL-NETWORK
simstrain


1) I caught the 3:50pm CC train Ex Central to Epping, it doesn't get any simpler than that.

2) The LNP "vision" is a plan they will work on for the next four years, however realistically much of the "Vision" will not even be started design by 2022 and this includes the bulk of the ring from Schofields to Macurthur. They then have to survive another election and allow then to face an unprecedented 4th term for the LNP in NSW since a bloody long time. , So I would not hold my breath. Even if they are returned for a 4th term, also remember the cash flow has slowed somewhat and now started to borrow money. Some of these projects make the NW Line look like chicken feed.

From their policy

A NSW Liberals & Nationals Government will…Continue planning for four additional routes including:

- Metro West extension: Westmead to Western Sydney Airport - will happen, feds will part fund.

North-South metro rail extension
- St Marys to Rouse Hill via Schofields. Not for a bloody long time, there are so many greater issues in Sydney Trains than this project.
- Western Sydney Aerotropolis to Macarthur. Expect common sense to prevail and the Leppington line be extended for a fraction of the price. Enables direction connection between the two airports and City CBD

Metro South West extension:
- Bankstown to Liverpool Yes this will happen, needs to be a priority

- Finish and open Metro North West Line in May, at least $500 million under budget. Done

- Complete construction of the Metro City & South West through Sydney CBD and out to Bankstown. Will happen

- Accelerate construction of the Metro West line to more than double rail capacity between Westmead/Parramatta and Sydney CBD, and provide new rail stations across Greater Sydney. Will happen

- Start construction of a North-South metro rail to connect rail to the new airport at Badgerys Creek.Airport to St Mary's will happen, but remain isolated for a very long time. I suspect this will eventually be connected to Westmead before Scofields to provide a direct connection City CBD to West CBD to Western Airport



Remember, when the ALP eventually get back in they will put their own spin on any project not yet started demonising the LNP plans as part of the big sell.
  arctic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Zurich

WTF, did I read that right? Where too, from, and I take it direct train on (formerly called) Sector 3?

Whats the issue? We were at Central and I wanted to go via a CC train to Epping, which I can assure you was not uncommon before or now.


More likely, Hornsby-Epping will be added to the Metro system. As will Richmond-Schofields

I tend to agree, I know Sim's said no for the Richmond line, but realistically this line is easier to do than almost anywhere else and the trains very suited and a way to more cheaply increase capacity. However for now, Hornsby I think would likely happen first.

In reply to these 2 items

1. There are no CC trains to Epping. There are northern line trains to epping but there are no trains that use the CC that go to Epping. The CC is the domain of sector 2. Epping is on sector 3.

2. Plans are already done. Metro will not be going to either hornsby or richmond. It will be going to Western Sydney airport via schofileds and st mary's. https://nsw.liberal.org.au/Our-Plans/Policies/METRO-RAIL-NETWORK

1) I caught the 3:50pm CC train Ex Central to Epping, it doesn't get any simpler than that.

.
RTT_Rules
I think maybe RTT means Central Coast and Sims means City Circle? Smile
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I think maybe RTT means Central Coast and Sims means City Circle? Smile
arctic
Ok, could be. Yes I mean Central Coast.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

I think maybe RTT means Central Coast and Sims means City Circle? Smile
Ok, could be. Yes I mean Central Coast.
RTT_Rules

I thought you meant City Circle too, hence the WTF.  Relevant because clearly Sydney Trains are looking at isolating the Northern Line T9 IIRC from the rest of Sector 3, and all trains will terminate at Central, but probably not till Metro Stage 2 is done.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

CC to me has always meant city circle in Sydney trains terms. If your catching a train to or from the central coast the terms used is Gosford, Wyong or newcastle interchange services since those are the stops the services start or terminate at.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
CC to me has always meant city circle in Sydney trains terms. If your catching a train to or from the central coast the terms used is Gosford, Wyong or newcastle interchange services since those are the stops the services start or terminate at.
simstrain
To anyone living on the Central Coast its CC and the short name used by Sydney Trains is now CCN, Central Coast and Newcastle. Anyway point taken.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Lets have some metro fun instead - https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/tunnels-carved-beneath-sydney-s-busy-streets-offer-glimpse-of-future-20190816-p52hsn.html

First TBM is in pitt street. Second TBM is on it's way and the other 3 TBM's are making great progress as well.

https://www.sydneymetro.info/tunnelling
  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
For those who have trouble fitting the NW line into their textbook definition of a "true metro", I suggest you take a trip to Perth and this will help you understand what the Sydney metro actually is - a rapid transit system, which is a train system with high average speed that stops at all stops. Because of its high average speed (achieved through acceleration/deceleration/dwells)  it achieves quicker journey times than a suburban system, even one that skips stops (I can provide figures to prove this). In Perth it's commonly described as an S-Bahn type of railway which is really the same thing under  a different name. Both are rapid transit systems. I guess S-Bahns are more typically associated with surface travel while metros more associated with underground travel, but this doesn't have to be strictly the case. So, with this understanding, it's not difficult to see the validity of the Sydney metro as an outer suburban mode as well as an inner suburban mode.

The reason that the metro didn't reach Schofields first off is that they were building it under a planning approval obtained by the previous Labor govt where the plan was to stop where it does now. Apparently it was too time-consuming to get a new approval because they wanted to get started asap, but there is definitely an intention to extend it towards Marsden Park and St Marys (and the airport/Macarthur).

I've ridden it and it's fantastic. However, it held no surprises for me because it's actually exactly like Perth (closest comparison would be the Joondalup line). Naturally it's more up to date with the automation, sound -proofed stations and trains and the platform doors but everything else about the system is very similar to Perth. The only thing about the project that isn't so far is that the feeder bus system in Sydney is poorer than Perth's. This needs to be worked on.

Sympathise with your wife's predicament on the trip djf01. We usually drive from Nowra to Sydney because the train journey is just so slow and uncomfortable, but my wife recently decided to accompany my daughter to an event at Olympic Park and they did so by train, in spite of me advising her that her medical state would make it a terrible day out. Sure enough, she said that by the time they got to Hurstville she was cactus, the swaying of the double deck train making her feel quite ill (she has no problem in single deck trains like the metro, the Endeavours or the Perth trains). They got to Olympic Park but coming back home they spent some $80 on a Uber (can we claim that back from Sydney Trains?!) to Sutherland to shorten the agony and then trained back to Nowra. There are a lot of problems with the double deck system including slow trips and awful trains (there has been no decent comfortable train since the V sets). It can be improved but I suspect not in my lifetime at this rate! My wife did like the metro very much though, but we drove to North Ryde to ride it, not wanting to torture her with another double deck trip!
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Why are we trying to define it at all?

The govt has used the term "Metro" to distinguish it from the existing network in a branding exercise, nothing more and nothing less and as far as I can tell on the three metrics only that is common with the Paris Metro that most people grab

Frequency
Consistent stopping pattern
Its mostly UG

Automation, which Paris Metro is only just rolling out is not one of them. And an example that for every poor attempt at a definition, there is an exemption and you will find this in Paris itself.

So what is the best label that applies to the "NW Metro"  in my book?.

It's a "HR commuter line"
The automation, single decker, platform doors, stopping pattern, ave speed etc etc is just agroup of features employed on that one line for the travelling public dont care about..
  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
Sure we can call them all commuter or suburban railway systems but there are broad typologies that subsets of this are grouped under. After all, you wouldn't talk about the Sydney suburban system and the metro in the same breath. The first has lower average speeds and a mixture of express and all stations stopping pattern. The latter has a higher average speed and stops at all stations. But, like Perth, the latter also has characteristics of suburban rail.

Rapid transit system is the closest description that fits both Perth and the Sydney metro, but in the end, people (and politicians) can call them what they like. My original point was to address the claims of railway enthusiasts I have seen on the various forums saying that the Sydney metro should only run in inner city areas like a "typical metro", without understanding that, whatever it might be called, it's actually a hybrid-function system and has a place in longer-distance outer suburbs as much as in inner suburbs. Indeed, ironically (and again like Perth), the longer the distance, the bigger its journey time lead over the suburban system! This sort of blows apart any attempt to rigidly pigeonhole it.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Sure we can call them all commuter or suburban railway systems but there are broad typologies that subsets of this are grouped under. After all, you wouldn't talk about the Sydney suburban system and the metro in the same breath. The first has lower average speeds and a mixture of express and all stations stopping pattern. The latter has a higher average speed and stops at all stations. But, like Perth, the latter also has characteristics of suburban rail.

Rapid transit system is the closest description that fits both Perth and the Sydney metro, but in the end, people (and politicians) can call them what they like. My original point was to address the claims of railway enthusiasts I have seen on the various forums saying that the Sydney metro should only run in inner city areas like a "typical metro", without understanding that, whatever it might be called, it's actually a hybrid-function system and has a place in longer-distance outer suburbs as much as in inner suburbs. Indeed, ironically (and again like Perth), the longer the distance, the bigger its journey time lead over the suburban system! This sort of blows apart any attempt to rigidly pigeonhole it.
tonyp
I haven't worked out the NWRL average speed, but I'm sure I can find a line in any of the 6 x mainland cities with surburban rail services with similar.

The express / all stopper mixing, yes and no. ESR is a fixed timetable all stopper, Sydney airport line services are fixed stopping pattern. New York has subways that have express lines.

Perth has two lines that are similar to the NWRL.

The are parts of Sydney Trains, Brisbane Trains and Melbourne trains that would fit into Rapid transport definition.  Again the ESR comes to mind with out looking further.

What is a "typical Metro"? my point before, for every example someone quotes me I can quote at least 2 conflicts from their example. Point is there is no such thing as a "typical Metro", Metro is a label applied to some Latin language countries rail system. North America chooses to call them "subways", London "The Tube", its a name not a definition.

The NWRL is built like almost any rail line built in the late 20th / 21st century.
- Stations placed further apart to save time and cost.
- Dedicated line, consistent stopping pattern
- Automation is increasingly common
- Its in a tunnel because the area is developed, its on a bridge for the same reason. No LX allowed and plowing through the landscape in cut and fill approach isn't going to fly with the locals.

again what is it?
An automated SD HR commuter line.
  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
We're actually in agreement that there's no such thing as a "typical metro". It's just a label. My point is that there are a number or critics running around saying that metro is not the appropriate technology for the NW line because it's an inner-urban mode. This is just rigid thinking that doesn't allow for the fact that any technology can be adapted and applied as appropriate to specifc circumstances. In both Sydney and Perth, the projects were and still are described as Rapid Transit Systems with all that entails (including faster journeys while stopping at all stops and higher capacity) and in both cases they assembled the appropriate technology to achieve that in their respective specific circumstances, regardless of how the technology was applied elsewhere in other environments that weren't relevant to Sydney and Perth.

Now have a look at some figures below and say again that there are other lines anywhere in Australia that are as fast in average speed as Perth and NW metro journeys. By the time you get out towards the metropolitan peripheries, the NSW metro and Perth systems have journeys 10-15 minutes quicker than even any Sydney semi-expressing, let alone stopping, services.


Performance comparisons
13 km segment:

Perth:
Perth-Mosman Park (13.5 km): 11 stops, 21 minutes (38 km/h)
Perth-Beckenham (13.8 km): 9 stops, 19 minutes (43 km/h)
Perth-East Guildford (14 km): 11 stops, 20 minutes (42 km/h)

Sydney Metro:
Sydenham-Bankstown (13.4 km): 9 stops, 21 minutes (projected time) (38 km/h)

Sydney Suburban:
Central-Homebush (12.7 km): 11 stops, 27 minutes (28 km/h)
Sydenham-Bankstown (13.4 km): 9 stops, 25 minutes (32 km/h)
Tempe-Bondi Junction (13.1 km): 7 stops, 25 minutes (31 km/h)

Melbourne:
Upfield-Royal Park (13.4 km): 9 stops, 20 minutes (40 km/h)
Box Hill – Richmond (12.5 km): 11 stops, 22 minutes (34 km/h)
Richmond – Bentleigh (12.7 km): 9 stops, 22 minutes (34 km/h)
Jacana – North Melbourne (13.7 km): 10 stops, 24 minutes (34 km/h)
Jolimont – Rosanna (12.9 km): 13 stops, 26 minutes (29 km/h)

16 km segment:

Perth:
Beckenham-Armadale (16.2 km): 7 stops, 20 mins (48 km/h)

Sydney Metro:
Tallawong-Cherrybrook (16 km): 6 stops, 18 mins) (53 km/h)

Sydney Suburban:
Parramatta-Quakers Hill (16.7 km): 7 stops, 25 mins (40 km/h)

30 km segment (E=skipping stops):

Perth:
Perth-Armadale: E 12 stops, 35 mins; 17 stops, 39 mins (51, 46 km/h)

Sydney Suburban:
Sydney Central-Glenfield via East Hills: E 11 stops, 43 mins; E 17 stops, 49 mins (41, 36 km/h)

Melbourne:
Werribee-North Melbourne: E 13 stops, 42 mins (42 km/h)

33 km segment (E=skipping stops train; ICE=intercity express train):

Perth:
Perth-Clarkson: 9 stops, 33 mins (59 km/h)
Perth-Kwinana: 6 stops, 28 mins (70 km/h)

Sydney Metro:
Rouse Hill-Chatswood: 10 stops, 33 mins (60 km/h)
(after subtracting 2 minute stop at Epping)

Sydney Suburban:
Blacktown-Redfern: E 7 stops, 41 mins; E 13 stops, 47 mins; ICE 1 stop, 32 mins (48, 42, 61 km/h)
Cronulla-Redfern: E 8 stops, 43 mins (46 km/h)
Central-Hornsby via Strathfield: ICE 4 stops, 37 mins (53 km/h)
Central-Macquarie Fields via East Hills: E 7 stops, 40 mins (49 km/h)

Adelaide:
Seaford-Mile End: 21 stops, 48 mins; 13 stops, 43 mins (41, 46 km/h)
Adelaide-Munno Para (diesel): 13 stops, 43 mins (46 km/h)

Melbourne:
Ferntree Gully-Parliament: 10 stops, 43 mins (46 km/h)
Southern Cross-Dandenong: 16 stops, 47 mins (42 km/h)
Flinders Street-Werribee: 9 stops, 42 mins (47 km/h)
Flinders Street-Mernda: 2 stops, 41 mins (48 km/h)

Brisbane (handicapped by track profiles):
Central-Ebbw Vale: 10 stops, 43 mins (46 km/h)
Central-Loganlea: IC 5 stops, 41 mins (48 km/h)
Central-Wellington Point: 12 stops, 52 mins (38 km/h)
Central-Narangba: IC 6 stops, 41 mins (48 km/h)

47 km segment (E=skipping stops train; ICE=intercity express train):

Perth:
Perth-Warnbro: 9 stops, 38 mins (74 km/h)
Clarkson-Murdoch: 13 stops, 49 mins (57 km/h)
(after subtracting 2 minute stop at Perth)

Sydney Metro:
Tallawong-Central: 17 stops, 50 mins (56 km/h)
(projected time after subtracting 2 minute stop at Epping)

Sydney Suburban:
Riverstone-Redfern: E 11 stops, 55 mins (51 km/h)
St Marys-Redfern: E 9 stops, 50 mins (55 km/h)
Macarthur-Central: E 15 stops, 60 mins (47 km/h)
(after subtracting 2 minute stop at Glenfield)

Sydney Interurban:
Thirroul-Bombo: ICE 9 stops, 48-54 mins (52-58 km/h)

Brisbane Interurban:
Beenleigh-Varsity Lakes (49 km): ICE 5 stops, 32 mins (91 km/h)

70 km segment  (ICE=intercity train):

Perth:
Perth-Mandurah: 10 stops, 51 mins (82 km/h)

Sydney Interurban (fastest line):
Central-Douglas Park (diesel) (65 km): ICE 6 stops, 63-66 mins (63-66 km/h)

Melbourne Interurban:
Southern Cross-North Geelong (diesel): ICE 9 stops, 55 mins (76 km/h)

Example of 6 km non-stop segment between stations:

Perth:
Murdoch-Cockburn Central (6.7 km): 4 mins (100 km/h) (1.67 km/min) (speed limit 130 km/h)

Sydney Metro:
Epping-Cherrybrook (6.2 km): 4 mins (93 km/h) (1.55 km/min) (speed limit 100 km/h)

Sydney Suburban:
Heathcote-Waterfall (5.6 km): 4-5 mins (67-84 km/h) (1.12-1.4 km/min) (speed limit 115 km/h)

Brisbane Interurban:
Ormeau-Coomera (6.8 km): 4-5 mins (81-102 km/h) (1.36-1.7 km/min) (speed limit 140 km/h)
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I agree with Tonyp that the new Sydney metro is more rapid transit then traditional metro and similar to perth but with more modern technology used. Perth smartly used the space down the centre of the motorways for their rail system whereas in Sydney we built new tunnels because we have no option to do what perth did.

From Epping to Tallawong the rolling stock is always running at or over 100km/h between stations and it only takes 23 minutes to go 23km's and get to epping from tallawong. If you go on the anytrip live map you can actually see live speeds. The cumberland line takes 24 minutes to go 15 kilometres from Liverpool to Parramatta.

Comparing train times between Sydney and Perth is not really a good comparison because the Sydney system is a remnant of the steam age and the lay of the land. Sydney also has significantly more passengers to load and as mentioned many times on here there are a mix of stopping and non stopping services sharing the same lines. Sydney and the surrounds also have some geographical issues that perth does not have.
  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
Comparing train times between Sydney and Perth is not really a good comparison because the Sydney system is a remnant of the steam age and the lay of the land. Sydney also has significantly more passengers to load and as mentioned many times on here there are a mix of stopping and non stopping services sharing the same lines. Sydney and the surrounds also have some geographical issues that perth does not have.
simstrain
In choosing my examples for comparison I selected sections of line in all cities (except Brisbane where it isn't really possible and I've noted that) that are straight to straightist and without significant gradient issues, so the comparison is on a pretty even basis, except that Sydney (and Melbourne) are handling much greater numbers of people.

However in the latter respect you need to look at the figures for Sydney vs Melbourne and you can see the other factor that also applies to Perth and Sydney metro - higher average speed due to faster acceleration/deceleration and shorter dwell time due to single deck trains, with mutliple doors in the case of Sydney metro and Melbourne. The double deckers in Sydney do slow things down.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The other thing to note with the comparison to douglas park is that the dmu will often arrive early at glenfield and sit for 5 or more minutes because it is early or has caught up to an all stopper and so has to dawdle between glenfield and macarthur. Sydney metro doesn't operate like this and so that is another area of advantage it has over the sydney trains system.

The mandurah train is a through service to the north if I am not mistaken and so that train also doesn't lose time like DMU services in Sydney have in getting out of central and having to deal with the T4 along the illawarra to wolli creek. Obsiously southern cross also suffers similar issues to Central in this regard.

I would also say that the east hills line isn't that straight and has some significant curves even though the DMU would use the passing lanes up till revesby. There are certainly points where the train has to slow down as the speed limit changes several times between 90-125km/h along this section of track.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The other thing to note with the comparison to douglas park is that the dmu will often arrive early at glenfield and sit for 5 or more minutes because it is early or has caught up to an all stopper and so has to dawdle between glenfield and macarthur. Sydney metro doesn't operate like this and so that is another area of advantage it has over the sydney trains system.

The mandurah train is a through service to the north if I am not mistaken and so that train also doesn't lose time like DMU services in Sydney have in getting out of central and having to deal with the T4 along the illawarra to wolli creek. Obsiously southern cross also suffers similar issues to Central in this regard.

I would also say that the east hills line isn't that straight and has some significant curves even though the DMU would use the passing lanes up till revesby. There are certainly points where the train has to slow down as the speed limit changes several times between 90-125km/h along this section of track.
simstrain
To the best of my knowledge Perth doesn't mix services like Sydney, so naturally they don't have that complexity to deal with nor if they are smart will ever have to deal with.

Sydney will spend another 50 years progressively segregating lines, especially IU/regional/freight from Suburban and services so that the lines can achieve their full capacity and with it the economic and reliability required.  

If we go back to when the ECRL was built it made sense to take trains off the Nth line and divert via the shore. Now today if you put this proposal on the table you would be shouted down as creating bottle necks and adding to line complexity, poor reliability and displacing spare capacity with almost no room to grow. And the ECRL was only built 20 odd years ago.

Removal of Bankstown will remove one more level of complexity in the city, although create a problem west of Bankstown, this is relatively minor in comparison and easier to resolve.

City to Hurtsville and Inner West also need to go and the sooner the better. The inner west could be part of a future Inner NW Metro (aka ALP plan) and Hurtsville and new southern Metro corridor.

Sydney trains needs to focus on optimizing longer haul and outer suburban services with projects that remove congestion and complex and unreliable timetables.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

yep and that is the plan. Oh another metro breakthrough today. This time at victoria cross.

https://www.facebook.com/7NEWSsydney/videos/367871273890584/

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