NSWR coal stage loco use

 
  alco4836 Station Master

Hi All
Just a quick question
What locomotives apart from the 19 class
pushed coal hoppers up the coal stage?
Regards Mat

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  duttonbay Minister for Railways

I'm not an expert, but the only two photos I have illustrating locos working on NSW coal stages show 3221 at Broadmeadow (1966), and 7328 at Port Waratah (1972, when there were still standard goods and 30T classes based there)
  alco4836 Station Master

I'm not an expert, but the only two photos I have illustrating locos working on NSW coal stages show 3221 at Broadmeadow (1966), and 7328 at Port Waratah (1972, when there were still standard goods and 30T classes based there)
duttonbay
Thanks duttonbay I was not even thinking a diesel went up there for the job
Regards Mat
  NSWRcars Chief Train Controller

What locomotives apart from the 19 class
pushed coal hoppers up the coal stage?
alco4836
Google "NSWR coal stage", and a few variations on the theme, will return some images. Examples I found included 20 class on Enfield coal stage, and a 53 class on Broadmeadow's.
  Lockspike Deputy Commissioner

Hi All
Just a quick question
What locomotives apart from the 19 class
pushed coal hoppers up the coal stage?
Regards Mat
alco4836
Anything handy, up to say a std goods in size. A photo of a 57 or 38 on a coal stage would be interesting! Cool
  alco4836 Station Master

Google "NSWR coal stage", and a few variations on the theme, will return some images. Examples I found included 20 class on Enfield coal stage, and a 53 class on Broadmeadow's.
NSWRcars
Thanks NSWRcars I did google it but I googled NSWGR not NSWR and got a few
results so lesson learned drop the G Very Happy
Regards Mat
  a6et Minister for Railways

Google "NSWR coal stage", and a few variations on the theme, will return some images. Examples I found included 20 class on Enfield coal stage, and a 53 class on Broadmeadow's.
Thanks NSWRcars I did google it but I googled NSWGR not NSWR and got a few
results so lesson learned drop the G Very Happy
Regards Mat
alco4836
The large coal stages at Werris Creek, Broadmeadow, Port Waratah, Goulburn, Demondrille and Junee could use any engines depending on what was available at the time. They could be 19, 20, 30, 30T, 32, 50, 53, 55 or 59cl the later were used at BMD, while PTW used 19, 30T and SG engines.  Enfield I only ever saw 20 or 30tank engines on the coal stage shunter, which worked every day M-F 730am - 3pm and Saturdays 6am - 2pm
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

Google "NSWR coal stage", and a few variations on the theme, will return some images. Examples I found included 20 class on Enfield coal stage, and a 53 class on Broadmeadow's.
Thanks NSWRcars I did google it but I googled NSWGR not NSWR and got a few
results so lesson learned drop the G Very Happy
Regards Mat
The large coal stages at Werris Creek, Broadmeadow, Port Waratah, Goulburn, Demondrille and Junee could use any engines depending on what was available at the time. They could be 19, 20, 30, 30T, 32, 50, 53, 55 or 59cl the later were used at BMD, while PTW used 19, 30T and SG engines.  Enfield I only ever saw 20 or 30tank engines on the coal stage shunter, which worked every day M-F 730am - 3pm and Saturdays 6am - 2pm
a6et
Just out of interest, was the Parkes coal stage considered to be "large"?
  a6et Minister for Railways

Google "NSWR coal stage", and a few variations on the theme, will return some images. Examples I found included 20 class on Enfield coal stage, and a 53 class on Broadmeadow's.
Thanks NSWRcars I did google it but I googled NSWGR not NSWR and got a few
results so lesson learned drop the G Very Happy
Regards Mat
The large coal stages at Werris Creek, Broadmeadow, Port Waratah, Goulburn, Demondrille and Junee could use any engines depending on what was available at the time. They could be 19, 20, 30, 30T, 32, 50, 53, 55 or 59cl the later were used at BMD, while PTW used 19, 30T and SG engines.  Enfield I only ever saw 20 or 30tank engines on the coal stage shunter, which worked every day M-F 730am - 3pm and Saturdays 6am - 2pm
Just out of interest, was the Parkes coal stage considered to be "large"?
duttonbay
John

I forgot the Parkes coal stage, yes it was a large type.  I use the term to differentiate them from other types, such as the Holman, and what I call the split types that were in use at Eveleigh, Valley Heights, along with sort of similar ones at Lithgow, and Muswelbrook.

I also tend to recollect that the one at Harden was a larger type as well.  Thing is that not all were of the same size overall, especially in length.
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
Those of us who did the 2 x 19 class tour (1904 / 1923) in 1972 were told they were kept as they were the only ones that could get up the Port Waratah coal stage. I never cross checked that depot's closure date against the withdrawal date for those two 19 class, as obviously they would need something to get up that stage after the 19 class were gone, assuming the depot lasted beyond that 19 class withdrawal.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Those of us who did the 2 x 19 class tour (1904 / 1923) in 1972 were told they were kept as they were the only ones that could get up the Port Waratah coal stage. I never cross checked that depot's closure date against the withdrawal date for those two 19 class, as obviously they would need something to get up that stage after the 19 class were gone, assuming the depot lasted beyond that 19 class withdrawal.
petan
Petan, I know under the "normal" circumstances PTW did use standard goods engines on the coal stage shunter, more often than not 50cl, in later years though the use of 30T was common, as well as the 19cl.  

I also tend to remember as steam finished in most areas or close to the end, many of the bins were closed for economic reasons also many had rotting timbers and the amount of coal needed was diminishing almost daily.
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

Those of us who did the 2 x 19 class tour (1904 / 1923) in 1972 were told they were kept as they were the only ones that could get up the Port Waratah coal stage. I never cross checked that depot's closure date against the withdrawal date for those two 19 class, as obviously they would need something to get up that stage after the 19 class were gone, assuming the depot lasted beyond that 19 class withdrawal.
Petan, I know under the "normal" circumstances PTW did use standard goods engines on the coal stage shunter, more often than not 50cl, in later years though the use of 30T was common, as well as the 19cl.  

I also tend to remember as steam finished in most areas or close to the end, many of the bins were closed for economic reasons also many had rotting timbers and the amount of coal needed was diminishing almost daily.
a6et
As mentioned previously, I photographed 7328 shunting the coal stage at Port Waratah on 22/8/72
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
Those of us who did the 2 x 19 class tour (1904 / 1923) in 1972 were told they were kept as they were the only ones that could get up the Port Waratah coal stage. I never cross checked that depot's closure date against the withdrawal date for those two 19 class, as obviously they would need something to get up that stage after the 19 class were gone, assuming the depot lasted beyond that 19 class withdrawal.
Petan, I know under the "normal" circumstances PTW did use standard goods engines on the coal stage shunter, more often than not 50cl, in later years though the use of 30T was common, as well as the 19cl.  

I also tend to remember as steam finished in most areas or close to the end, many of the bins were closed for economic reasons also many had rotting timbers and the amount of coal needed was diminishing almost daily.
As mentioned previously, I photographed 7328 shunting the coal stage at Port Waratah on 22/8/72
duttonbay
That 73 class makes more sense as their introduction would fit the approx date of that tour so the 19 clould be retired which memory says was mid to late 1972. But I was basing my remarks on what the railfans and organisers were telling us, so likely it was a case of Chinese whispers. The main thing I remember of that day was being at the front middle door of the leading car with the tender first 19 class just in the immediate front of me and mesmerized by the operation of the inside cylinders, remembering that was the first and only time I had been up close to inside cylinders while they were hauling a train.
  Spinner5711 Train Controller

There's pictures around of 42 and 48 Class D/Es shunting coal stages.

Enfield was shunted by whatever was around too.  I've seen pictures of 30 tank, 30T, 32 and Standard Goods on the trestle, pushing hoppers up.

In the last few years of Enfield, smaller RTM engines used to shunt that coal stage, including 1243, 1301, 1709 and 2705.
  alco4836 Station Master

Thanks for all the responses this is really informative. Just to ask another question
did the track going up the coal stage have
the extra rails in the middle like bridges do?
Regards Mat
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

The one at Parkes had what look more like check rails than guard rails - quite close to the rails.




John
  a6et Minister for Railways

The one at Parkes had what look more like check rails than guard rails - quite close to the rails.




John
duttonbay
John, IIRC, they all were similar and when on the trestles there was a strict speed limit on the loco's, at Enfield there was a 5mph approach speed from the bank but on the trestles it was slowed down, supposedly.  As Enfield had two tracks over the bins, there was a set of ball points at the top and the fuelman was sit on them to hold them down, it was quite precarious as if the speed was too great they could be bounced off.

Nice Pic thanks for posting.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
The one at Parkes had what look more like check rails than guard rails - quite close to the rails.




John
duttonbay
John,
Can you advise (step by step for a steam era idiot) how you were able to insert this photo as part of your post, please?
It MIGHT be the answer to something that I have been trying unsuccessfully to do for years.
Regards
YM
  alco4836 Station Master

Hi all
Does anyone know what sort of wagons were used to take the
sand up the top of the sand towers that are attached to some of
the coal stages?
Regards Mathew Hughes
  a6et Minister for Railways

Hi all
Does anyone know what sort of wagons were used to take the
sand up the top of the sand towers that are attached to some of
the coal stages?
Regards Mathew Hughes
alco4836
Mathew, it was usually in Tarped S Wagons, job of the fuelmen to shovel the sand out into the burners that would dry the sand before going down to the storage bins.  Hopper wagons were generally not used owing to the sand bins being on the approach end of the bins, both for the coal bins and for loco's going through to get sand boxes filled, then coaled then up onto the de-ash pits before heading to the shed. and next job.
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
Hi all
Does anyone know what sort of wagons were used to take the
sand up the top of the sand towers that are attached to some of
the coal stages?
Regards Mathew Hughes
Hopper wagons were generally not used owing to the sand bins being on the approach end of the bins, both for the coal bins and for loco's going through to get sand boxes filled, then coaled then up onto the de-ash pits before heading to the shed. and next job.
a6et
Sorry, I don't understand the significance of the sand bins being on the approach end of the coal bins, with regard to hopper sand wagons? Not disputing the point but just plain curious, as usual.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Hi all
Does anyone know what sort of wagons were used to take the
sand up the top of the sand towers that are attached to some of
the coal stages?
Regards Mathew Hughes
Hopper wagons were generally not used owing to the sand bins being on the approach end of the bins, both for the coal bins and for loco's going through to get sand boxes filled, then coaled then up onto the de-ash pits before heading to the shed. and next job.
Sorry, I don't understand the significance of the sand bins being on the approach end of the coal bins, with regard to hopper sand wagons? Not disputing the point but just plain curious, as usual.
petan
Petan, I understand its a weird aspect but if you look at the location of the sand bin, in relation to the servicing of the loco's it comes into play, in certain respects it depends on the depot as well as I am thinking the WCK one may have been different.

Firstly, all depots have arrival roads, where they are left by the incoming crew, a leading fitter goes over the engines and the incoming driver may make reports for engine repairs etc. When ok to go to the servicing the shed crew, usually only a shed driver takes it to be sanded, coaled and then to the ash pit for fire to be attended and ash pans cleared, a code is put in chaulk on backhead, which if more for the fuelmen  B is bank, drop all the main fire but leave a bank under the door to maintain steam.  WO, Washout, DF Drop all fire. Washout can be performed in steam but not always.

The move is in sync with the sand being completed first, then the coaling, deash and then to shed.  The sand bins are always separate to the coal bins, but are part of the overall structure and can be readily seen in photo's that show the coaling roads going under an overhead timber structure, there are two platforms on each side for the fuelmen to sand each sand box there. A good photo is found in the 50cl book of 5132 being sanded at Goulburn.

There is also the reasoning for them to be in that space to prevent sand getting in with the coal bins, as sand can cause clinkering in the firebox if the coal is of not decent size to be separate enough, rubbish coal that has a lot of fines in it are affected the most.

At WCK, there are two arrival roads, one that comes in from the Station end and the other from the Quirindi end, the Station end has a wide track and the engines left there, the main coaling and sanding was usually performed on departing engines which had the track leading down to the station end of the yard, the sanding facilities here IIRC was at the Station end, as per other depots so it was the last bit done.  If an engine was to depart by the Quirindi end, it was sanded and coaled then run over the TT to the yard.

While any depot could get coal by any type of wagon from S - K and other 4 wheelers, once the BCH wagons were in service, they had the advantage of bottom discharge as did the LCH/CCH wagons. what also occurred was that depots such as Enfield, & BMD had coal separation bins, also somehow at Orange and Dubbo for 38cl only as they had to have Northern coal. BMD had graded coals for garratts, 38 and other classes, and the coal had to be dropped into those bin areas only.
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
Hi all
Does anyone know what sort of wagons were used to take the
sand up the top of the sand towers that are attached to some of
the coal stages?
Regards Mathew Hughes
Hopper wagons were generally not used owing to the sand bins being on the approach end of the bins, both for the coal bins and for loco's going through to get sand boxes filled, then coaled then up onto the de-ash pits before heading to the shed. and next job.
Sorry, I don't understand the significance of the sand bins being on the approach end of the coal bins, with regard to hopper sand wagons? Not disputing the point but just plain curious, as usual.
Petan, I understand its a weird aspect but if you look at the location of the sand bin, in relation to the servicing of the loco's it comes into play, in certain respects it depends on the depot as well as I am thinking the WCK one may have been different.
(lots of lovely material snipped)
a6et
Thanks for all that interesting material. I have a follow up question; Why does the fact sand is in a hopper wagon or not in a hopper wagon, make a difference to its delivery to the coal stage area?
  a6et Minister for Railways

Hi all
Does anyone know what sort of wagons were used to take the
sand up the top of the sand towers that are attached to some of
the coal stages?
Regards Mathew Hughes
Hopper wagons were generally not used owing to the sand bins being on the approach end of the bins, both for the coal bins and for loco's going through to get sand boxes filled, then coaled then up onto the de-ash pits before heading to the shed. and next job.
Sorry, I don't understand the significance of the sand bins being on the approach end of the coal bins, with regard to hopper sand wagons? Not disputing the point but just plain curious, as usual.
Petan, I understand its a weird aspect but if you look at the location of the sand bin, in relation to the servicing of the loco's it comes into play, in certain respects it depends on the depot as well as I am thinking the WCK one may have been different.
(lots of lovely material snipped)
Thanks for all that interesting material. I have a follow up question; Why does the fact sand is in a hopper wagon or not in a hopper wagon, make a difference to its delivery to the coal stage area?
petan
Petan, the only reason really is that a hopper wagon can discharge from the bottom, now something has come to me that gives the primary reason why sand for steam and the separate bins for sand than with coal, is that there is what's called a burner in the top of the sand bin, the concept is and I think I mentioned before was that sand had to be very dry, and the heating of the sand as it flowed down was at high temp to ensure no moisture was in the sand, sand pipes on loco's could readily block if moisture got in and made the sand thick.

The main aspect though is that where the sand truck was stopped and secured by chocks and hand brake, was they were in line with the sand bin, and the sand was shovelled out of the wagon into the burner bin, the sand truck always came up in the last load of the morning/day, where they had extra fuelmen to unload the sand.  It was a hard job and unpleasant if the wind was blowing, but tricks were had, the drop door was let go first with the sand falling out onto the deck (at that part of the coal stage, there was no gap between the rails and the sides on the outside rails were covered with wooden walkways, one or two fuelmen would get the sand shovelled into the burner while another would be in the truck shovelling the sand out and onto the heap
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
Hi all
Does anyone know what sort of wagons were used to take the
sand up the top of the sand towers that are attached to some of
the coal stages?
Regards Mathew Hughes
Hopper wagons were generally not used owing to the sand bins being on the approach end of the bins, both for the coal bins and for loco's going through to get sand boxes filled, then coaled then up onto the de-ash pits before heading to the shed. and next job.
Sorry, I don't understand the significance of the sand bins being on the approach end of the coal bins, with regard to hopper sand wagons? Not disputing the point but just plain curious, as usual.
Petan, I understand its a weird aspect but if you look at the location of the sand bin, in relation to the servicing of the loco's it comes into play, in certain respects it depends on the depot as well as I am thinking the WCK one may have been different.
(lots of lovely material snipped)
Thanks for all that interesting material. I have a follow up question; Why does the fact sand is in a hopper wagon or not in a hopper wagon, make a difference to its delivery to the coal stage area?
Petan, the only reason really is that a hopper wagon can discharge from the bottom, now something has come to me that gives the primary reason why sand for steam and the separate bins for sand than with coal, is that there is what's called a (more good material snipped to save space)
a6et
I just realised your description suggests sand out the side of the wagon into the receiver burner on the side of a coal stage, not dumped into a receiver under the wagon so a bottom discharge hopper wagon would not work. By the way, I never knew how sand burners worked, although I had heard of them, so thanks for that as well. Cheers Peter

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