Climate Change Action Day

 
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Well it is happening

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  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
I heard our Don was there.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Yep the atmosphere there was electrifying with over 150,000 people attending the one in Melbourne.
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

How much juice would all those iPhones chew up?
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
How many would you see if the kids and their teachers had to give up a Saturday or better yet, a Sunday to ‘protest’...
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

How many would you see if the kids and their teachers had to give up a Saturday or better yet, a Sunday to ‘protest’...
Aaron
Use your own numbers/sources, my conclusion, SFA.

Perhaps a Saturday protest will either silence or confirm the skeptics.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
How much juice would all those iPhones chew up?
michaelgm
No more than they usually would - there would be very little incremental energy consumption because of this activity.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
How many would you see if the kids and their teachers had to give up a Saturday or better yet, a Sunday to ‘protest’...
Aaron
STFU
You Clearly don't understand the point of civil disobedience.
At Melbourne one that I was at was largely union and student based with a few businesses joining in. It was mainly Workers and students from what I could tell. Keep your assumptions to your self. I'm just waiting for Don to appear and claim the same and that there were 'brainwashed' by lefty greenie propaganda and al gore
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
The same question arises, how important would this, or any other ‘cause’ be if it didn’t result in a ‘day off’?

For the record, I support the idea of CO2 reduction, I believe the outcomes of inaction are grossly overstated, but that doesn’t mean I don’t believe in a changing climate, or anthropogenic cause, I know both of those are true.

I won’t ever attend an event like this because for me the benefit is not there. There are vastly more important ways to contribute/volunteer my time to adjust Australia’s CO2 contribution - which I always do outside of my employment.

I wonder if those at the rally put half today’s effort into something meaningful if the numbers would have been lower and like more actually achieved.
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Were there reps from the coal mining union Dan?
  pvcommuter Station Master

There were many thousands there, but 100K is an overstretch.

These kids (and those that attended in their support) are rightfully freaking out about the state of things with respect to action on reducing emissions. I doubt they give a toss about other's tut-tutting or snide speculation about whether it is Friday or Saturday, as well they should not -- they are explicitly engaged in confronting and challenging, for crying out loud. They would like to sleep better at night. They would like to be able to look forward to 2050 and beyond.

The leadership vacuum in this area that is created by mainstream politics and society is indeed being filled by some niche and somewhat familiar left-ish players, but to me that just indicates that there should never have been a vacuum. It did not have to be like this.
  pvcommuter Station Master

The same question arises, how important would this, or any other ‘cause’ be if it didn’t result in a ‘day off’?

For the record, I support the idea of CO2 reduction, I believe the outcomes of inaction are grossly overstated, but that doesn’t mean I don’t believe in a changing climate, or anthropogenic cause, I know both of those are true.

I won’t ever attend an event like this because for me the benefit is not there. There are vastly more important ways to contribute/volunteer my time to adjust Australia’s CO2 contribution - which I always do outside of my employment.

I wonder if those at the rally put half today’s effort into something meaningful if the numbers would have been lower and like more actually achieved.
Aaron
Tell us about the meaningful and impactful things that you do.

So far you have only (i) criticized a hundred thousand people or so who actually did something; (ii) provided your wisdom about how, I guess, the direct and compounding consequences of reaching 450ppm CO2 in about 15 years time won't really be as bad as experts in atmospheric, marine, agricultural and biological sciences predict.

Truly awesome contribution so far.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The same question arises, how important would this, or any other ‘cause’ be if it didn’t result in a ‘day off’?

For the record, I support the idea of CO2 reduction, I believe the outcomes of inaction are grossly overstated, but that doesn’t mean I don’t believe in a changing climate, or anthropogenic cause, I know both of those are true.

I won’t ever attend an event like this because for me the benefit is not there. There are vastly more important ways to contribute/volunteer my time to adjust Australia’s CO2 contribution - which I always do outside of my employment.

I wonder if those at the rally put half today’s effort into something meaningful if the numbers would have been lower and like more actually achieved.
Tell us about the meaningful and impactful things that you do.

So far you have only (i) criticized a hundred thousand people or so who actually did something; (ii) provided your wisdom about how, I guess, the direct and compounding consequences of reaching 450ppm CO2 in about 15 years time won't really be as bad as experts in atmospheric, marine, agricultural and biological sciences predict.

Truly awesome contribution so far.
pvcommuter
The predictions are like that of the Fusion breakthrough, always in the future. The predictions from the early 90's to today were inaccurate.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
There were many thousands there, but 100K is an overstretch.

These kids (and those that attended in their support) are rightfully freaking out about the state of things with respect to action on reducing emissions. I doubt they give a toss about other's tut-tutting or snide speculation about whether it is Friday or Saturday, as well they should not -- they are explicitly engaged in confronting and challenging, for crying out loud. They would like to sleep better at night. They would like to be able to look forward to 2050 and beyond.

The leadership vacuum in this area that is created by mainstream politics and society is indeed being filled by some niche and somewhat familiar left-ish players, but to me that just indicates that there should never have been a vacuum. It did not have to be like this.
pvcommuter
No, they were given the choice of a day off school to protest on a topic they know little about. So yes if it was in "their time", the numbers would have been far less. The main reason they will sleep better tonight is because they did some physical activity for once.

The mainstream leadership left or right still has to run the country and pay the bills, keep our customers happy, they do not have the scope to act on extremists demands and wreck the economy in the process.

You are right, it did not have to be like this, they should have gone to school and focused on learning, not protesting.
  pvcommuter Station Master

There were many thousands there, but 100K is an overstretch.

These kids (and those that attended in their support) are rightfully freaking out about the state of things with respect to action on reducing emissions. I doubt they give a toss about other's tut-tutting or snide speculation about whether it is Friday or Saturday, as well they should not -- they are explicitly engaged in confronting and challenging, for crying out loud. They would like to sleep better at night. They would like to be able to look forward to 2050 and beyond.

The leadership vacuum in this area that is created by mainstream politics and society is indeed being filled by some niche and somewhat familiar left-ish players, but to me that just indicates that there should never have been a vacuum. It did not have to be like this.
No, they were given the choice of a day off school to protest on a topic they know little about. So yes if it was in "their time", the numbers would have been far less. The main reason they will sleep better tonight is because they did some physical activity for once.

The mainstream leadership left or right still has to run the country and pay the bills, keep our customers happy, they do not have the scope to act on extremists demands and wreck the economy in the process.

You are right, it did not have to be like this, they should have gone to school and focused on learning, not protesting.
RTT_Rules
Yes, you are right. They should conform in full and behave in a way that does not confront or threaten any of the adults and their carefully thought-out systems and wonderfully balanced approaches to everything.

It is also true that the afternoon of the last day of term is extremely crucial to their lifetime educational outcomes, and the overriding criticality of it is supported by rock-solid science. Whereas anxiety and feelings of helplessness about their future: (i) do not exist; (ii) have no bearing on their long-tern ability to stay balanced kids, learn, and excel; (iii) really sort the men/women from the boys/girls anyhow.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Yes, you are right. They should conform in full and behave in a way that does not confront or threaten any of the adults and their carefully thought-out systems and wonderfully balanced approaches to everything.

It is also true that the afternoon of the last day of term is extremely crucial to their lifetime educational outcomes, and the overriding criticality of it is supported by rock-solid science. Whereas anxiety and feelings of helplessness about their future: (i) do not exist; (ii) have no bearing on their long-tern ability to stay balanced kids, learn, and excel; (iii) really sort the men/women from the boys/girls anyhow.
pvcommuter
So what do you expect the govt to do faster?
  pvcommuter Station Master

The same question arises, how important would this, or any other ‘cause’ be if it didn’t result in a ‘day off’?

For the record, I support the idea of CO2 reduction, I believe the outcomes of inaction are grossly overstated, but that doesn’t mean I don’t believe in a changing climate, or anthropogenic cause, I know both of those are true.

I won’t ever attend an event like this because for me the benefit is not there. There are vastly more important ways to contribute/volunteer my time to adjust Australia’s CO2 contribution - which I always do outside of my employment.

I wonder if those at the rally put half today’s effort into something meaningful if the numbers would have been lower and like more actually achieved.
Tell us about the meaningful and impactful things that you do.

So far you have only (i) criticized a hundred thousand people or so who actually did something; (ii) provided your wisdom about how, I guess, the direct and compounding consequences of reaching 450ppm CO2 in about 15 years time won't really be as bad as experts in atmospheric, marine, agricultural and biological sciences predict.

Truly awesome contribution so far.
The predictions are like that of the Fusion breakthrough, always in the future. The predictions from the early 90's to today were inaccurate.
RTT_Rules
Actually in climate science, the predictions have been extraordinarily constant and broadly matched by observation since the early 90's. If not risking being a bit conservative. 450ppm -> 2degC is a prediction as old as the hills.

Whereas predictions of future oil prices, peak oil, aviation trends, solar panel uptake, computing ... bollocks.

Fusion would be great. It does not bode well that it is always a few decades away. We desperately need it.
  pvcommuter Station Master

Yes, you are right. They should conform in full and behave in a way that does not confront or threaten any of the adults and their carefully thought-out systems and wonderfully balanced approaches to everything.

It is also true that the afternoon of the last day of term is extremely crucial to their lifetime educational outcomes, and the overriding criticality of it is supported by rock-solid science. Whereas anxiety and feelings of helplessness about their future: (i) do not exist; (ii) have no bearing on their long-tern ability to stay balanced kids, learn, and excel; (iii) really sort the men/women from the boys/girls anyhow.
So what do you expect the govt to do faster?
RTT_Rules
Not lie about the country's CO2 emissions performance, and laugh about a lump of coal in parliament, for starters.

Well, how about...

1. Promote and intervene in an accelerated electrification of transport >> this assisting Aus mfg, boosting electricity demand (important for dealing with the electricity demand plateau 2008-2018 which has amplified generation and transmission capacity issues), reducing Ag carbon intensity ( eg important for near-term European mkts especially), creating a general economic stimulus, and a set of new high value production and infrastructure investments so our super money isn't going into overpriced passive assets like real estate and airports that already exist.

2. Green-light and kick-start a domestic nuclear industry

3. Ditto Hydrogen industry, with production for export and domestic. 10% H2 in our LNG gas system is *already* authorised by the regulator.

4. Support R&D and a raft of proof-of-concept projects in the circular economy, especially automation for waste materials sorting and processing, alternative civil construction materials, and food loss/waste reduction and diversion

5. Follow ACT's example and reform stamp duty, which is a tax with a wide range of perverse outcomes including extraordinarily long car-based commutes and unhealthy/higher-emissions living by people too knackered to do anything else

6. Ensure a more level playing field for rail vs road wrto infrastructure pricing, and rework fuel and transport pricing/incentives/taxation and competition laws so that integrated mixed-mode intra and inter state transport is facilitated and advantaged

Or maybe just keep kicking the same old cans down the road.....
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Actually in climate science, the predictions have been extraordinarily constant and broadly matched by observation since the early 90's. If not risking being a bit conservative. 450ppm -> 2degC is a prediction as old as the hills.

Whereas predictions of future oil prices, peak oil, aviation trends, solar panel uptake, computing ... bollocks.

Fusion would be great. It does not bode well that it is always a few decades away. We desperately need it.
pvcommuter
Predictions of the future have been consistent, not prediction from past to anyone day that has come and gone have not.

Fusion is the considered the Holy Grail of so called Free Energy, however like Solar and Wind it is and will never be free.

I completed my physics degree 25 years ago with the optimism that within 10-15 years a small scale Fusion reactor would be in operation and the engineering commencing to make it industrial. Today's development position is that its still no closer than 15 years away, likely 25yr. I do suspect that once the breakthrough has been achieved the engineering cost for industrial operation will be no less than fission and likely alot more. The licensing fees alone will be astronomical.

So what do you want the govt to do faster for Climate Change the kiddies can sleep better at night?

Note: I see the photos of the protesters in Mel include signs saying stop Adani. The Peoples Republic of Victoria I thought were well aware of your vote in May and the rest of us said, Yes on this topic.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
So what do you expect the govt to do faster?
Not lie about the country's CO2 emissions performance, and laugh about a lump of coal in parliament, for starters.

Well, how about...

1. Promote and intervene in an accelerated electrification of transport >> this assisting Aus mfg, boosting electricity demand (important for dealing with the electricity demand plateau 2008-2018 which has amplified generation and transmission capacity issues), reducing Ag carbon intensity ( eg important for near-term European mkts especially), creating a general economic stimulus, and a set of new high value production and infrastructure investments so our super money isn't going into overpriced passive assets like real estate and airports that already exist.

2. Green-light and kick-start a domestic nuclear industry

3. Ditto Hydrogen industry, with production for export and domestic. 10% H2 in our LNG gas system is *already* authorised by the regulator.

4. Support R&D and a raft of proof-of-concept projects in the circular economy, especially automation for waste materials sorting and processing, alternative civil construction materials, and food loss/waste reduction and diversion

5. Follow ACT's example and reform stamp duty, which is a tax with a wide range of perverse outcomes including extraordinarily long car-based commutes and unhealthy/higher-emissions living by people too knackered to do anything else

6. Ensure a more level playing field for rail vs road wrto infrastructure pricing, and rework fuel and transport pricing/incentives/taxation and competition laws so that integrated mixed-mode intra and inter state transport is facilitated and advantaged

Or maybe just keep kicking the same old cans down the road.....
pvcommuter
That lump of coal is contributing to your standard of living and retirement, it deserves respect.

Production of H2 = production of CO2. H2 is extremely dangerous and its widespread use in the greater community will never be readily taken up.

The power grid is already Gold Plated and contributed heavily to whole sale power prices doubling within a decade, how much more do you want to throw at it?

How do you expect the Ag industry to reduce emissions, the whole industry involves clearing of forests past and present and using lots of diesel.

The Green Movement supported by the ALP that is driving climate change protests are opposed to nuclear industry.

Electrification of transport will happen organically as the technology evolves. Current EV's (of which many are still not available in RHD) are mostly aimed at the upper middle class budgets and there are wako's who think this should be subsidized. Support of fast chargers is happening,

The ACT govt is not worthy of replicating into the states that actually provide the revenue to the economy.
ie, removing requirements for mains gas in new developments is a starter.

This is a rail interest group, so of course I want to see more rail, this is not just a climate change issue. But the logistics of supplying Australia is not overly rail friendly.
  pvcommuter Station Master

Actually in climate science, the predictions have been extraordinarily constant and broadly matched by observation since the early 90's. If not risking being a bit conservative. 450ppm -> 2degC is a prediction as old as the hills.

Whereas predictions of future oil prices, peak oil, aviation trends, solar panel uptake, computing ... bollocks.

Fusion would be great. It does not bode well that it is always a few decades away. We desperately need it.
Predictions of the future have been consistent, not prediction from past to anyone day that has come and gone have not.

Fusion is the considered the Holy Grail of so called Free Energy, however like Solar and Wind it is and will never be free.

I completed my physics degree 25 years ago with the optimism that within 10-15 years a small scale Fusion reactor would be in operation and the engineering commencing to make it industrial. Today's development position is that its still no closer than 15 years away, likely 25yr. I do suspect that once the breakthrough has been achieved the engineering cost for industrial operation will be no less than fission and likely alot more. The licensing fees alone will be astronomical.

So what do you want the govt to do faster for Climate Change the kiddies can sleep better at night?

Note: I see the photos of the protesters in Mel include signs saying stop Adani. The Peoples Republic of Victoria I thought were well aware of your vote in May and the rest of us said, Yes on this topic.
RTT_Rules

The fundamental physical constraint, that nature is not putting up for negotiation, has limits on CO2 and related gases in the atmosphere. Humanity (via governments, in part) has to optimise everything else within that constraint. The longer the moderately uncomfortable compromises (imposts) get deferred, the more we have no future choice about the very uncomfortable ones. Arguing about economic barriers being too high and the requirements being too difficult is pointless. It is like yelling at the sea. So what should governments be doing? Simply do what is necessary to get fossil fuel use down.

It is currently global net zero emissions 2050. That wasn't as strictly necessary, for 2050, back in 2005. Australia's energy and transport sector was only being projected as needing to be 80%-90% renewables, not 100%. Our governments did not do enough of the easier stuff, eg., reforming transport, commutes and cities, setting up incentives to replace coal plants with gas/nuclear/solar/whatever plants, better building performance. Neither have many o/s ones either. So stricter net zero 2050 requirements now very much threatens the Carbon headroom that the aviation sector needs in order to have a reasonable future. Also significant sequestration/drawdown technologies are now assumed to exist by 2030-2035 just so we can keep CO2 levels in check, let alone cycle C through the atmosphere by producing synthesized hydrocarbon fuels (C02 to CH4) which are no doubt necessary. Happily, there is more current progress in synthesized hydrocarbons than there has been in fusion. There are some promising catalysts.
  pvcommuter Station Master

That lump of coal is contributing to your standard of living and retirement, it deserves respect.

Production of H2 = production of CO2. H2 is extremely dangerous and its widespread use in the greater community will never be readily taken up.

RTT_Rules
Actually no. That lump of coal poses more threat to my future std of living and retirement, combusted, compared to if it stayed in the ground. At least in the specific context of whether we should be expanding that industry (and the morality of celebrating the short-term political triumphs associated with it).

Near-immediate prohibition of coal is not realistic nor holistically moral given energy poverty in parts of Asia in particular. But (as per a slim majority of our pollies, and many of our overly-vocal and quite globally mediocre domestic business tycoons do) denying that it has more than about 15 years to run in a sane and stable world, and promoting the opposing non-reality that she'll be right and all who say otherwise are leftist loonies, deserves not the slightest bit of respect at all.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: North Haverbrook; where the monorail is king!
How do you expect the Ag industry to reduce emissions, the whole industry involves clearing of forests past and present and using lots of diesel.
RTT_Rules
We need to stop clearing land for agriculture, simple as that. If your agribusiness relies on further land clearing (which is almost entirely done to create what is largely marginal pastoral land) then it shouldn't exist.
If your business relies on guzzling hundreds of thousands of litres of diesel to pump water out of the severely stressed Murray-Darling river system to irrigate fields of cotton, rice and almond groves, then it shouldn't exist. Simple as that. We got rid of the tobacco-growing industry because it's a crop that was fuelling a social-ill, we can do the same with other crops too.

We need to take a really hard look at some of these drought-stricken parts of the eastern states and decide whether letting people run cattle there is a good idea. Beef cattle is enormously greenhouse gas-intensive and if we regrow the bushland in these areas they can become carbon sinks again. If you don't like the idea of paying more for your steak then tough. Collective action is required to fix this problem.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
That lump of coal is contributing to your standard of living and retirement, it deserves respect.

Production of H2 = production of CO2. H2 is extremely dangerous and its widespread use in the greater community will never be readily taken up.
Actually no. That lump of coal poses more threat to my future std of living and retirement, combusted, compared to if it stayed in the ground. At least in the specific context of whether we should be expanding that industry (and the morality of celebrating the short-term political triumphs associated with it).

Near-immediate prohibition of coal is not realistic nor holistically moral given energy poverty in parts of Asia in particular. But (as per a slim majority of our pollies, and many of our overly-vocal and quite globally mediocre domestic business tycoons do) denying that it has more than about 15 years to run in a sane and stable world, and promoting the opposing non-reality that she'll be right and all who say otherwise are leftist loonies, deserves not the slightest bit of respect at all.
pvcommuter
No, the lump of coal is why you have your current standard of living, which provides you with choice about what we can do in the future and will contribute to that cost. Only wealthy countries have the ranges choices about climate change, the poorer countries will burn that coal and not think twice about the future, they live in today.

The coal is also not the cause of the problem, its the 7B people we have on the planet that is the cause of the problem and there is no talk on what to do about this. The ONLY reason Australia's CO2 emissions are rising is due to population growth. Under the leadership of the ultimate 2 faced Greenie PM, Helen Clark, NZ's CO2 emissions at the fastest rate in their history during her term despite all the so called green initiatives (read taxes) that she used to bribe her way into the UN, why population growth.

Much of the problems stated in the previous post above is all due to population growth. So what are we going to do about it? For me I've stated before, STOP PAYING WELFARE TO PEOPLE WANTING LARGE FAMILIES. Normal support up until child 2, half for child 3 and beyond you are on your own. The money saved can be used to fund some of the things you have highlited. The Australian population should have a max target of 30-35m. Immigration being used to off-set the birth rate below replacement.

Coal will play a major role in Australia for at least 20-30 years before it goes into rapid decline over the following 25 years, remember exports are still rising.

Something to remember, all the worlds Helium production is sourced natural gas production, all the worlds Aluminium production is sourced from anodes made from oil based coke, etc etc So trying to shutdown of hide these industries off-shore in the name of climate change is not solving climate change. Some of the so called climate change initiatives such as H2 production conveniently ignore the fact H2 is mostly made from CH4 to make CO2.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
What would I like our current government to do about climate change?

Something, that would be a start.

How about, rather than making off-mic jokes about pacific island nations being swallowed up by rising sea levels, they actually listened to the leaders of those nations who are pleading with Australia to lead the region in action.

No instead, they continue making jokes.

You say that coal has gotten us to where we are at this point, yes that is true, but you can't argue that coal will be there for ever, it just isn't the future. Even if we here in Australia decide to continue with it for power generation, other countries that we export to will have moved on. Our mining and transport industries that rely heavy on coal mining and transport for export will have to adapt and move on. Our government needs to be a part of this. Basing a large part of our economy on a redundant fossil fuel is just poor management.

At the moment, they appear to just have their heads buried in the sand, Just look at our last federal election for proof of that.

In the lead up to our that election, the LNP's Environment Minister was completely absent, she was nowhere to be seen. At the same time, they had zero policies regarding climate change.

This is manifestly inadequate.

And don't think I am just here to bash the LNP, the Labor party aren't a lot better. The fact that Shorten & Co. were too piss-weak to have a definitive stance on Adani is proof that they aren't any better. It was all because they were scared of losing votes in QLD and they lost them all anyway. What a joke.


Essentially, from the 300,000+ of us that were involved in the protests around Australia yesterday, when the old entitled white men who choose to do nothing stand up in parliament and tell us to go back to work, we tell them to get stuffed and actually do your damn job.

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