T6 Carlingford Line closure for Parramatta Light Rail

 
  viaprojects Train Controller

the date is set ...


On Sunday 5 January 2020, the low-frequency Sydney Trains T6 Carlingford Line will permanently close


http://www.parramattalightrail.nsw.gov.au/library/supporting-documents

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  C3765 Junior Train Controller

Fortunately, unlike the closure and conversion of the ECRL, there are currently plans to operate a number of shuttles using Red Set F1 between Clyde and Carlingford before the closure of the line.

Also, I think sections of all stations will remain intact after the lines closure and conversion.

In 2023:

Carlingford - Will reopen as part of stage 1 of the Parramatta LightRail with a second platform.

Telopea - Will reopen as part of Stage 1 of the Parramatta LightRail with a second platform.

Dundas - Will reopen as part of Stage 1 of the Parramatta LightRail with a second platform.

Rydalmere - Will reopen as part of Stage 1 of the Parramatta LightRail with a second platform.

Camellia - Will reopen as part of Stage 1 of the Parramatta LightRail with a second platform.

Rosehill - Will probably become a part of a Park/open space similarly to Ropes Creek and Newcastle Stations.

Clyde - Would have never closed and would continue to be served by Sydney Trains but may have less frequent services.

Most of them will probably retain their station buildings thanks to their historical significance. Dundas has been confirmed to retain much of its original station. Rosehill station will no longer have any trains and may lose its platforms, however will definitely retain its footbridge as it is a heritage item/place.

“Parramatta Light Rail has been designed to minimise impacts on heritage items and use of existing road and rail corridors will limit these impacts.
On the T6 Carlingford Line, the heritage aspects of the Dundas Station building and platform, opened in 1896 and on the State Heritage Register, will be protected and incorporated into a new light rail stop in the same location.”


“The Rosehill Railway Station footbridge is of local significance as the earliest example of an overhead braced Warren truss footbridge constructed for the NSW Railways.

The footbridge was identified as an item of high heritage significance in the 2016 ‘Railway Footbridges Heritage Conservation Strategy’. The Rosehill Railway Station footbridge is an early and relatively rare example of an overhead braced Warren truss footbridge constructed for the NSW Railways. The bridge remains highly intact and is the earliest remaining structure at Rosehill Railway Station - an important station associated with the adjacent Rosehill Racecourse. The footbridge has a high level of integrity, despite new decking and safe guards which are considered of low impact and reversible.”

Although the footbridge is the only structure at Rosehill Station which is considered historically significant, I think parts of the Platforms will be retained to show what the footbridge was connecting and maybe a set of fake tracks can be laid.

More on T6 Line Conversion:
http://www.parramattalightrail.nsw.gov.au/t6-carlingford-line

More on Rosehill Footbridge: https://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/heritageapp/ViewHeritageItemDetails.aspx?ID=4801762

Artist Impression of Dundas LightRail Stop:
http://data.parramattalightrail.nsw.gov.au/s3fs-public/Dundas%20low%20res.JPG?1FFSB5FwF1lhw8VPVbmTVfKOc88oXRIk
  qldchook Locomotive Driver

So Rosehill will loose its rail connection? Although I support the overhaul and upgrade to this line I believe a rail connection to Rosehill racecourse should be retained. This is incredibly short sighted.
  Colonel Leon Junior Train Controller

Location:
So Rosehill will loose its rail connection? Although I support the overhaul and upgrade to this line I believe a rail connection to Rosehill racecourse should be retained. This is incredibly short sighted.
qldchook
This is probably because of the overall alignment being north of Rosehill.

Good thing they left space on the Parramatta river bridge to put 2 tracks.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

So Rosehill will loose its rail connection? Although I support the overhaul and upgrade to this line I believe a rail connection to Rosehill racecourse should be retained. This is incredibly short sighted.
This is probably because of the overall alignment being north of Rosehill.

Good thing they left space on the Parramatta river bridge to put 2 tracks.
Colonel Leon
Rosehill is going to get a metro station as part of metro west. In closing this line down another level crossing is gone from Sydney. Also take in to account that the new LRV's will have batteries so don't count out light rail still going to clyde.
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

LR Unlikely to go Clyde, unless Parramatta road LX is grade separated. Then $$$$$$
  exarmidale Train Controller

No real need for Clyde Station once Carlingford Line is closed. LR will feed Parramatta adequately instead.
  Colonel Leon Junior Train Controller

Location:
I have seen workers at Auburn MC use Clyde though.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

Clyde will likely stay and only be serviced by T2 services
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I have seen workers at Auburn MC use Clyde though.
Colonel Leon

The numbers are very low, Granville and Clyde are less than 500m apart, it would be easier to argue to close Clyde if Granville had a Eastern access ramp and walking from CLyde wasn't via William Street dogs leg.

Potentially yes it could be closed and I've said so in the past, but the pedestrian access from Auburn MC would need to be improved.

However, with Carlingford Line dead, certainly Clyde station and surrounding trackwork can be heavily rationalised to reduce long-term operational and maintenance costs.

Likely the future timetabling of Clyde may reflect workers shifts patterns.
  Throughwestmail Train Controller

I have seen workers at Auburn MC use Clyde though.

The numbers are very low, Granville and Clyde are less than 500m apart, it would be easier to argue to close Clyde if Granville had a Eastern access ramp and walking from CLyde wasn't via William Street dogs leg.

Potentially yes it could be closed and I've said so in the past, but the pedestrian access from Auburn MC would need to be improved.

However, with Carlingford Line dead, certainly Clyde station and surrounding trackwork can be heavily rationalised to reduce long-term operational and maintenance costs.

Likely the future timetabling of Clyde may reflect workers shifts patterns.
RTT_Rules
What rationalising do you see happening?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I have seen workers at Auburn MC use Clyde though.

The numbers are very low, Granville and Clyde are less than 500m apart, it would be easier to argue to close Clyde if Granville had a Eastern access ramp and walking from CLyde wasn't via William Street dogs leg.

Potentially yes it could be closed and I've said so in the past, but the pedestrian access from Auburn MC would need to be improved.

However, with Carlingford Line dead, certainly Clyde station and surrounding trackwork can be heavily rationalised to reduce long-term operational and maintenance costs.

Likely the future timetabling of Clyde may reflect workers shifts patterns.
What rationalising do you see happening?
Throughwestmail
Of the three island platforms, at least one removed and perhaps two others trimmed to allow improved track alignment for the main line. Only need two plats, so close the rest and remove.

I assume the entire branch is now dead after T6 is closed, so apart from access for the small depo near Clyde station remove the track infrastructure including the modern concrete sleepers with what is probably the last remaining timber OH poles used in Sydney and a number of the cross overs on the main line that are not required for Auburn or the junction beyond Granville.

However i still see this T6 conversion project as a solution looking for a problem, but agree something had to happen to T6 but this was not it and nor complete, ie no connection to Epping. Lets see in a few years how the patronage changes.
  303gunner Station Master

And so the wheel turns full circle.

The Carlingford Branch started life as a privately owned Tramway, before failing financially and being taken over by the NSWGR.
  Piston Train Controller

The government has once again missed the golden opportunity with the Carlingford line conversion to extend the line (maybe underground) over to Epping. This would then allow a complete interchange with the Metro both directions towards Chatswood and Tallawong. Plus the main north towards Hornsby and down to Rhodes. A person can then travel from Gordon across to Parramatta without going via the city. Someone who works at Parramatta and comes from Gosford would travel to Epping and change there direct for light rail to Parramatta. Too simple.

This lack of foresight is also most noticable when the north west metro didn't extend to meet the Richmond line. Are they transport planners or what? By carrying out these two extra connections it would make travel so much easier and flexible.

With regards to the government published maps of the conversion of the Carlingford line not one map showed the close relationship of Carlingford with Epping. Maybe this was a cunning plan so that people wouldn't ask why the line wasn't extended there being so close?

Its possible they will announce these two extensions in the future expecting everyone to go 'wow' what a great idea.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The government has once again missed the golden opportunity with the Carlingford line conversion to extend the line (maybe underground) over to Epping. This would then allow a complete interchange with the Metro both directions towards Chatswood and Tallawong. Plus the main north towards Hornsby and down to Rhodes. A person can then travel from Gordon across to Parramatta without going via the city. Someone who works at Parramatta and comes from Gosford would travel to Epping and change there direct for light rail to Parramatta. Too simple.

This lack of foresight is also most noticable when the north west metro didn't extend to meet the Richmond line. Are they transport planners or what? By carrying out these two extra connections it would make travel so much easier and flexible.

With regards to the government published maps of the conversion of the Carlingford line not one map showed the close relationship of Carlingford with Epping. Maybe this was a cunning plan so that people wouldn't ask why the line wasn't extended there being so close?

Its possible they will announce these two extensions in the future expecting everyone to go 'wow' what a great idea.
Piston
The extension to Epping was part of original proposal and then quietly dropped.

But yes it should have been a Metro service Epping to Paramatta,
- UG to Carlingford,
- surface to Camiella (which is new station under the racecourse car park (cut and cover) with access from the racecourse, surburbia to the west and new development expected between racecourse and river.
- UG to Paramatta and beyond
- Services running Paramatta to the current Chatswood terminus and in future on to Sydney and Bankstown, boosting frequency on the busy ECRL. A single Y junction at one end of the line is not going to create congestion issue in the future providing no crossing paths.

For me this was the minimum that should have ever been considered.

The Richmond line extension, I agree but it would appear the commitment wasn't forthcoming at the time as the Metro got extended closer to the Richmond line during project phase and yes very close, the actual connection station planning has still to be completed but without the PERL, this should have been brought forward, its a 2.5km connection for crying out loud. This would take further congestion off the Main west which the Govt has already said the NW Metro is helping with.
  Transtopic Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney
The government has once again missed the golden opportunity with the Carlingford line conversion to extend the line (maybe underground) over to Epping. This would then allow a complete interchange with the Metro both directions towards Chatswood and Tallawong. Plus the main north towards Hornsby and down to Rhodes. A person can then travel from Gordon across to Parramatta without going via the city. Someone who works at Parramatta and comes from Gosford would travel to Epping and change there direct for light rail to Parramatta. Too simple.

This lack of foresight is also most noticable when the north west metro didn't extend to meet the Richmond line. Are they transport planners or what? By carrying out these two extra connections it would make travel so much easier and flexible.

With regards to the government published maps of the conversion of the Carlingford line not one map showed the close relationship of Carlingford with Epping. Maybe this was a cunning plan so that people wouldn't ask why the line wasn't extended there being so close?

Its possible they will announce these two extensions in the future expecting everyone to go 'wow' what a great idea.
The extension to Epping was part of original proposal and then quietly dropped.

But yes it should have been a Metro service Epping to Paramatta,
- UG to Carlingford,
- surface to Camiella (which is new station under the racecourse car park (cut and cover) with access from the racecourse, surburbia to the west and new development expected between racecourse and river.
- UG to Paramatta and beyond
- Services running Paramatta to the current Chatswood terminus and in future on to Sydney and Bankstown, boosting frequency on the busy ECRL. A single Y junction at one end of the line is not going to create congestion issue in the future providing no crossing paths.

For me this was the minimum that should have ever been considered.

The Richmond line extension, I agree but it would appear the commitment wasn't forthcoming at the time as the Metro got extended closer to the Richmond line during project phase and yes very close, the actual connection station planning has still to be completed but without the PERL, this should have been brought forward, its a 2.5km connection for crying out loud. This would take further congestion off the Main west which the Govt has already said the NW Metro is helping with.
RTT_Rules
This is going over old ground, but is worth repeating.  

The government's initial proposal for the Parramatta Light Rail was for a route from Parramatta/Westmead to Macquarie Park, strangely via Carlingford.  Epping wasn't even mentioned.  That came later.  They obviously hadn't bothered to look at a map or consider Parramatta City Council's preliminary feasibility study which had recommended a more direct and faster route via Eastwood utilising the Carlingford Line from Camellia to Dundas, the 6-lane Kissing Point Rd and the reserved Eastwood County Road corridor mostly already owned by the government, which made a lot more sense.  It's inconceivable that this route wasn't even considered in the shortlist of options.

Extension of the light rail route from Carlingford to Epping, let alone to Macquarie Park, was problematic because of engineering and cost challenges in traversing or even terminating in the Epping Town Centre.  They hadn't thought it through and it was planning on the run.  That's why the extension to Epping was quietly dropped.  So we end up with a half completed light rail line which doesn't even connect with the originally intended major destinations.  

It appears that the misguided decision to utilise most of the Carlingford Line infrastructure took precedence over a more logical and direct, albeit more expensive, route.  Labor made the same mistake with its proposed Parramatta to Chatswood Rail Link, in preferring the longer convoluted route via Carlingford and Epping utilising the Carlingford Line, instead of the more direct route via Eastwood.  The latter proposal would also have allowed for a Y link from Epping to Eastwood to allow for direct services from Hornsby to Parramatta.  

They should have stuck with the original proposal for the route via Eastwood, which would still have interchanges with the Northern Line at Eastwood and the Metro Northwest at Macquarie University.  Proposed metro links between Parramatta and Macquarie Park are still open to conjecture as they are currently just lines on a map, without any consideration being given to how practicable they are.

With regard to the extension of Metro Northwest beyond Tallawong to connect with the Richmond Line, the reason why it wasn't included as part of the existing project, was because the newly elected Liberal government at the time was keen to honour one of its core election promises to start construction as soon as possible on the North West Rail Link, which was initially proposed as an extension of the existing rail network.  The previous Labor government's North West Metro proposal had already received planning approval for the section from Epping to Tallawong, which at that stage was the proposed stabling yard, and the new government took advantage of that to enable the project to start construction much earlier than would otherwise be the case.  It still involved some questionable alterations to the original approval, such as connecting the North West Line directly with the ECRL instead of the original approval for a segregated metro station at Epping on the opposite side of Beecroft Rd.

There were subsequent proposals for alternative options for extending the NWRL from Tallawong to the Richmond Line, either to Vineyard or Schofields, but after community consultation, it appears that the route to Schofields has been preferred with a longer term extension proposed to St Marys on the Western Line.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Thanks,
A few issues
- The existing line doesn't even look like there was provision for extension. The road bridge, Tallawong Road which would have been built for the railway doesn't look like it has space for a pair of main running tracks. Although the small bridge between this bridge and station does.

- They already have the turn outs for future extension of the yard capacity into the area that the extension would likely run.

- The extension would likely follow the north side of Schofields road, elevated as the south side is developed. But in the Google Sat photo, taken after the line is complete, there is the start of a development (Evergreen Street) right in the path of the likely extension route. Perhaps it has since been stopped?

- From there the air born route is clear to assuming a station built above Scofields but at 90deg to the Richmond Line.
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
Also take in to account that the new LRV's will have batteries so don't count out light rail still going to clyde.
simstrain


Please no.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Also take in to account that the new LRV's will have batteries so don't count out light rail still going to clyde.


Please no.
s3_gunzel
Not saying it will happen just that it is still a possibility. While there may only be 500 metres distance between Clyde and Granville by rail there is a significanlty larger walking distance since there is no direct walking route. The walking distance is 850 metres which may not sound like a lot but is quite a significant distance. Removing clyde isn't going to achieve anything in any case and so expect it to stay on the T2. The alignment is reasonably straight already and so removing it will achieve nothing.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Thanks,
A few issues
- The existing line doesn't even look like there was provision for extension. The road bridge, Tallawong Road which would have been built for the railway doesn't look like it has space for a pair of main running tracks. Although the small bridge between this bridge and station does.

- They already have the turn outs for future extension of the yard capacity into the area that the extension would likely run.

- The extension would likely follow the north side of Schofields road, elevated as the south side is developed. But in the Google Sat photo, taken after the line is complete, there is the start of a development (Evergreen Street) right in the path of the likely extension route. Perhaps it has since been stopped?

- From there the air born route is clear to assuming a station built above Scofields but at 90deg to the Richmond Line.
RTT_Rules

There is plenty of scope for the metro to extend south west towards schofields. Once the cbd and south west line is done this will be one of the easiast extensions to the metro. From tallawong it will probably go in to a skyrail viaduct towards schofield station down the centre of schofield road.
  Colonel Leon Junior Train Controller

Location:
so expect it to stay on the T2
simstrain
however on weekends it is served by T1 trains to and from Penrith.

This should probably stay the same however get a cut in services on both weekends and weekdays.
  Throughwestmail Train Controller

I have seen workers at Auburn MC use Clyde though.

The numbers are very low, Granville and Clyde are less than 500m apart, it would be easier to argue to close Clyde if Granville had a Eastern access ramp and walking from CLyde wasn't via William Street dogs leg.

Potentially yes it could be closed and I've said so in the past, but the pedestrian access from Auburn MC would need to be improved.

However, with Carlingford Line dead, certainly Clyde station and surrounding trackwork can be heavily rationalised to reduce long-term operational and maintenance costs.

Likely the future timetabling of Clyde may reflect workers shifts patterns.
What rationalising do you see happening?
Of the three island platforms, at least one removed and perhaps two others trimmed to allow improved track alignment for the main line. Only need two plats, so close the rest and remove.

I assume the entire branch is now dead after T6 is closed, so apart from access for the small depo near Clyde station remove the track infrastructure including the modern concrete sleepers with what is probably the last remaining timber OH poles used in Sydney and a number of the cross overs on the main line that are not required for Auburn or the junction beyond Granville.

However i still see this T6 conversion project as a solution looking for a problem, but agree something had to happen to T6 but this was not it and nor complete, ie no connection to Epping. Lets see in a few years how the patronage changes.
RTT_Rules
So a government that is heading towards more Metro would spend millions of dollars doing all this extremely complicated work you suggest. Which platforms do you suggest removing? Plat 1 is the Carlo platform, Plat 2 is the Up Main, Plat 3 is the Down Main, Plat 4 is the Up Suburban, Plat 5 is the Down Suburban and Plat 6 is on the old Down Relief and is fenced off from Plat 5 anyway. Also not forgetting that these "obsolete" points at the Sydney end of Clyde are the tracks in and out of Clyde Up Yard. If you remove all these points at both ends of Clyde, how do they get the track recording cars out of their shed on the branch? So to sum up your proposal, the only trains that could stop at Clyde would be on the Down Main line and the Up Suburban line. I think that the signallers on Auburn and Granville panels would love all the extra work.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I have seen workers at Auburn MC use Clyde though.

The numbers are very low, Granville and Clyde are less than 500m apart, it would be easier to argue to close Clyde if Granville had a Eastern access ramp and walking from CLyde wasn't via William Street dogs leg.

Potentially yes it could be closed and I've said so in the past, but the pedestrian access from Auburn MC would need to be improved.

However, with Carlingford Line dead, certainly Clyde station and surrounding trackwork can be heavily rationalised to reduce long-term operational and maintenance costs.

Likely the future timetabling of Clyde may reflect workers shifts patterns.
What rationalising do you see happening?
Of the three island platforms, at least one removed and perhaps two others trimmed to allow improved track alignment for the main line. Only need two plats, so close the rest and remove.

I assume the entire branch is now dead after T6 is closed, so apart from access for the small depo near Clyde station remove the track infrastructure including the modern concrete sleepers with what is probably the last remaining timber OH poles used in Sydney and a number of the cross overs on the main line that are not required for Auburn or the junction beyond Granville.

However i still see this T6 conversion project as a solution looking for a problem, but agree something had to happen to T6 but this was not it and nor complete, ie no connection to Epping. Lets see in a few years how the patronage changes.
So a government that is heading towards more Metro would spend millions of dollars doing all this extremely complicated work you suggest. Which platforms do you suggest removing? Plat 1 is the Carlo platform, Plat 2 is the Up Main, Plat 3 is the Down Main, Plat 4 is the Up Suburban, Plat 5 is the Down Suburban and Plat 6 is on the old Down Relief and is fenced off from Plat 5 anyway. Also not forgetting that these "obsolete" points at the Sydney end of Clyde are the tracks in and out of Clyde Up Yard. If you remove all these points at both ends of Clyde, how do they get the track recording cars out of their shed on the branch? So to sum up your proposal, the only trains that could stop at Clyde would be on the Down Main line and the Up Suburban line. I think that the signallers on Auburn and Granville panels would love all the extra work.
Throughwestmail
With regard track recorders access, read my post again.

If points are needed for other work, they are needed, no one said remove for the sake of removing, again read my post again.

Yes, only two plats are needed, pick you line and remove the rest, seems to have worked further east.
  Transtopic Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney
I have seen workers at Auburn MC use Clyde though.

The numbers are very low, Granville and Clyde are less than 500m apart, it would be easier to argue to close Clyde if Granville had a Eastern access ramp and walking from CLyde wasn't via William Street dogs leg.

Potentially yes it could be closed and I've said so in the past, but the pedestrian access from Auburn MC would need to be improved.

However, with Carlingford Line dead, certainly Clyde station and surrounding trackwork can be heavily rationalised to reduce long-term operational and maintenance Likely the future timetabling of Clyde may reflect workers shifts patterns.
What rationalising do you see happening?
Of the three island platforms, at least one removed and perhaps two others trimmed to allow improved track alignment for the main line. Only need two plats, so close the rest and remove.

I assume the entire branch is now dead after T6 is closed, so apart from access for the small depo near Clyde station remove the track infrastructure including the modern concrete sleepers with what is probably the last remaining timber OH poles used in Sydney and a number of the cross overs on the main line that are not required for Auburn or the junction beyond Granville.

However i still see this T6 conversion project as a solution looking for a problem, but agree something had to happen to T6 but this was not it and nor complete, ie no connection to Epping. Lets see in a few years how the patronage changes.
So a government that is heading towards more Metro would spend millions of dollars doing all this extremely complicated work you suggest. Which platforms do you suggest removing? Plat 1 is the Carlo platform, Plat 2 is the Up Main, Plat 3 is the Down Main, Plat 4 is the Up Suburban, Plat 5 is the Down Suburban and Plat 6 is on the old Down Relief and is fenced off from Plat 5 anyway. Also not forgetting that these "obsolete" points at the Sydney end of Clyde are the tracks in and out of Clyde Up Yard. If you remove all these points at both ends of Clyde, how do they get the track recording cars out of their shed on the branch? So to sum up your proposal, the only trains that could stop at Clyde would be on the Down Main line and the Up Suburban line. I think that the signallers on Auburn and Granville panels would love all the extra work.
Throughwestmail
Just to refresh everyone's memories, here's the Homebush to Parramatta 6 track Schematic prepared by TfNSW in 2013, which has since disappeared off the radar.  It clearly shows the proposed closure of all of the Clyde platforms and connections to the Carlingford Line as well as adjustments to connections with Clyde Yard.  It may not all be relevant in the context of the current Carlingford Line closure, but it's a good guide to how things may pan out.

The expressed intention is to close the Parramatta Rd level crossing, so it is extremely unlikely that the rail line between Clyde and Rosehill/Camellia, in whatever format, will be retained.




https://imgur.com/35FJyET
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Nothing is going to happen to the platforms and tracks at clyde because there is no benefit to removing them. The level crossing will be closed but nothing is going to happen at the station. That drawing you posted is not official policy transtopic but someones drawing about what should happen. Why would any rail organisation remove the points in to and out of clyde yard for instance which is used to store freight trains in the peak hour curfew periods. Regardless of what some people think you aren't going to get 2 more tracks between homebush and granville.

It looks as if someone has just taken the official sydney trains document and modified it to show there own plans.

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