Geelong high speed rail and electrification

 
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Geelong Regional Alliance is lobbying the Feds to include Avalon Airport in any High speed rail project too:
https://www.g21.com.au/avalon-airport

It might be interesting to see if the Feds make their funding contingent on this happening.  If this does occur, then perhaps we might see some through trains connecting Melb Airport and Avalon Airport?  i.e. A tunnel between Anderson Rd and Albion?

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  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
I’m a big fan of fast to geelong, but I’m staggered that the preferred route is via Lara and doesn’t go direct via Avalon to allow for future growth.   This is a once in a generation opportunity to get it right an I fear we will miss out.  Imagine being able to go airport to airport with only a change at Sunbury.   That would be game changing! Link a new station at Avalon with Lara via light rail in the future, busses for now.  The list of benefits far outweigh the current proposal in my eyes.
For someone called Engineering Logic you seem to lack some of it.

Why would a train go via an Airport which sees 5 flights to Sydney (10*200 = 2k people) and 2 to KL (4*400 = 1.6k people) per day (total 3.6k eligible pax), when it currently goes via a town with a pop of ~20k and growing rapidly.
John.Z

Inevitably there will be more services from Avalon by the time the fast rail upgrade is completed. Nevertheless an additional stop at Avalon by detouring the main line will not go over well with the Geelong locals. A bus service to/from Lara will suffice for many, many years.

Mike.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Geelong Regional Alliance is lobbying the Feds to include Avalon Airport in any High speed rail project too:
https://www.g21.com.au/avalon-airport

It might be interesting to see if the Feds make their funding contingent on this happening.  If this does occur, then perhaps we might see some through trains connecting Melb Airport and Avalon Airport?  i.e. A tunnel between Anderson Rd and Albion?
Carnot

I cannot see the development of Avalon as a major gateway with a viable and dependable rail service between Geelong and Melbourne via Avalon.    Avalon should already have this underway as a magnet to attract further airlines to the facility.  The fact it does not exist in my view is a blocker to more airlines considering this airport.

We need a major investment in the Geelong Line and the Geelong to Ballarat Line for services which link to Avalon for now and the future.

Most lower cost secondary airports have a rail service.  

If Avalon cannot get a good rail service then it will be a very slow burn.

Finally, a shuttle between the Melbourne Airport and the Avalon Airport should run as a through service to Geelong?
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

No way Lara would lose their train station for Avalon Airport. Little River much more likely.

As I've said, Lara has a population of 20k and growing rapidly (10k of that in quite a short amount of time). Many people buy in Lara to commute to Melbourne, station car park is not quite the size of Tarneit's, but full by 7am.

Fast Rail from Melbourne to Geelong should be non-stop anyway. Extend the Metro from Werribee to Lara, and start a Geelong Metro from Avalon Airport to Lara through to Waurn Ponds or Torquay.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

It will be a long time before other airlines split their operations between Avalon and Melbourne Airports, particularly as Melbourne Airport is spending $3 billion or so on a parallel runway (if it can make up its mind on the direction; north/south being the current favourite). Currently, Avalon is alright for Sydney, Adelaide and Gold Coast. However, for other destinations, you’d have to fly to one of the aforementioned, eg Sydney, and change planes (a tad ridiculous if you want to go to somewhere like Launceston, and even then have to come back via Melbourne) versus a direct flight from Melbourne Airport.

Jetstar is subsidised:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-27/victorian-government-signs-new-deal-to-keep-jetstar-at-avalon/6424890

Avalon suffers from being relatively close to Melbourne Airport. It will be a while before it even reaches the level of Newcastle, which has a bigger catchment area and no rail link. (Greater Newcastle pop 500,000 v Greater Geelong 230,000.)

A new station directly opposite the airport on the existing line, with a dedicated road over the freeway and shuttle service would be too expensive.
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
Honestly, I see the cheapest and simplest solution of "fast rail" to Geelong being express tracks from Sunshine to Wyndham Vale, with the existing tracks electrified. Combine that with whatever extra Sunshine to Melbourne capacity the Airport Rail Link creates and there should be enough room for growth for a couple of decades or so.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Honestly, I see the cheapest and simplest solution of "fast rail" to Geelong being express tracks from Sunshine to Wyndham Vale, with the existing tracks electrified. Combine that with whatever extra Sunshine to Melbourne capacity the Airport Rail Link creates and there should be enough room for growth for a couple of decades or so.
TOQ-1

Funny you should mention that. https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/fasttrack-local-rail-duplication-says-coker
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
Honestly, I see the cheapest and simplest solution of "fast rail" to Geelong being express tracks from Sunshine to Wyndham Vale, with the existing tracks electrified. Combine that with whatever extra Sunshine to Melbourne capacity the Airport Rail Link creates and there should be enough room for growth for a couple of decades or so.

Funny you should mention that. https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/fasttrack-local-rail-duplication-says-coker
bevans
That is completely different to what I saying, but a needed project for sure.
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

I don’t see why we should even bother expanding Avalon and keeping it at all. Melbourne already has one airport in the West. That airport is particularly hard to get to. Going to catch a flight from Avalon if you live in the Eastern, Southern, even Northern suburbs takes plenty of time, 1 Hour or more.

Basically takes longer to drive to Avalon than the flight itself to say Adelaide or Sydney.

If we need a second airport in Melbourne build one in the South East somewhere. Why not turn Moorabbin Airport or the land around there in Heatherton which isn’t heavilly populated into a second airport. Better than Koo Wee Rup which they’ve been talking about and is again very far to get to. And better than Avalon.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: North Haverbrook; where the monorail is king!
One international airport for Melbourne (and basically Victoria) out at Tullamarine is perfectly fine. It has room for expansion, it is well-positioned geographically and there are big benefits to having it as a central hub as opposed to spreading out airlines and domestic/international operations between airports.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
One international airport for Melbourne (and basically Victoria) out at Tullamarine is perfectly fine. It has room for expansion, it is well-positioned geographically and there are big benefits to having it as a central hub as opposed to spreading out airlines and domestic/international operations between airports.
LancedDendrite
To a certain extent that is true, but Melbourne is, and will remain, a second rate airport until it has more runway capacity. Two additional runways have been in semi-planning for at least 40 years. For many of those years there were signs near the airport showing where the proposed runways would be. Progress to date? Nil.
  Engineeringlogic Station Master

The idea is to decentralise Victoria's population, and not keep growing Melbourne.Melbourne centric is not the way to think unfortunately, however much that may hurt! Smile  Avalon would be a good second airport for Geelong and the region as it grows, as well as western Melbourne. Made even more attractive with good public transport access. A third airport out east? maybe in 50-80 years! Also, a second airport introduces competition, which helps lower fares. Everybody wins.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: North Haverbrook; where the monorail is king!
One international airport for Melbourne (and basically Victoria) out at Tullamarine is perfectly fine. It has room for expansion, it is well-positioned geographically and there are big benefits to having it as a central hub as opposed to spreading out airlines and domestic/international operations between airports.
To a certain extent that is true, but Melbourne is, and will remain, a second rate airport until it has more runway capacity. Two additional runways have been in semi-planning for at least 40 years. For many of those years there were signs near the airport showing where the proposed runways would be. Progress to date? Nil.
Valvegear
Please try to look a little harder. Click through to the (large pdf warning) 2018 Master Plan. Go to page 142 of the document. The third runway at YMML (southern East-West runway 09R/27L) is well into the planning and approval stages and has a projected opening date of 2023, along with widening and extensions to existing East-West runway 09L/27R.

The idea is to decentralise Victoria's population, and not keep growing Melbourne.Melbourne centric is not the way to think unfortunately, however much that may hurt! Smile Avalon would be a good second airport for Geelong and the region as it grows, as well as western Melbourne. Made even more attractive with good public transport access. A third airport out east? maybe in 50-80 years! Also, a second airport introduces competition, which helps lower fares. Everybody wins.
engineeringlogic
Decentralisation policy in Victoria (and Australia in general excluding Queensland) has been a total flop for the last 50+ years. A handful of industries have been moved to the regions, to a small degree of success - only to fall victim to a much larger national trend of deindustrialisation. Government services have been moved to the regions and it has largely been a disaster - moving the TAC to Geelong being a perfect case study - only 100 of the 700 public servants stayed along for the ride once their contractual obligations to stay with the organisation while it moved to Geelong expired. And Geelong is the "ideal" place to decentralise according to the traditional set criteria - it's got a large population and is also a relatively short distance by road (and frequent rail!) to Melbourne.

What is the most widely touted success story of decentralisation policy? Albury-Wodonga in the 1970s. That's roughly 40-50 years ago, with very different industrial policy settings (highly protectionist and a much heavier degree of Government support/involvement). I challenge you to come up with a more recent example of successful decentralisation policy (as opposed to maintaining an already very decentralised economy/population environment, like in Queensland).

Like it or lump it, Australia's 'capital' cities have large populations and high growth rates because people want to be there. There are agglomeration benefits by having organisations and industries all located together. People and their social groups want to stick together for the large part - this is largely the reason why attempts to resettle refugee migrants into regional areas has also been a failure in a lot of places unless it is done on a wholesale instead of piecemeal basis (Nhill is a good counterexample).

The real challenges are figuring out:
  • Decentralisation policies that will actually work and provide organic long-term economic & population growth in regional cities, as current attempts are ham-fisted and ineffective as I pointed out above
  • How to keep fitting more people into our capital cities without totally destroying their livability by turning them into an all-consuming blob of urban sprawl that spans hundreds of kilometres in every direction
  • How to retrofit our capital city suburbs where there is an existing pattern of poor livability (largely a function of the car dependence of residents)
  • Where railways (and public transport more broadly) fit as potential solutions to all of the above challenges. There are some rail projects that will be beneficial and some that will be expensive and ineffective (like, I must say, high speed rail projects in a broad sense).
  historian Deputy Commissioner

If we need a second airport in Melbourne build one in the South East somewhere. Why not turn Moorabbin Airport [...] into a second airport.
ptvcommuter

Ahhh, I don't think so. Compare the length of runways necessary at Melbourne Airport with those available at Moorabbin. Nor is there any available land around to extend the runways at Moorabbin.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
If we need a second airport in Melbourne build one in the South East somewhere. Why not turn Moorabbin Airport [...] into a second airport.

Ahhh, I don't think so. Compare the length of runways necessary at Melbourne Airport with those available at Moorabbin. Nor is there any available land around to extend the runways at Moorabbin.
historian
Many want Moorabbin Airport closed or It's use greatly reduced, because of It's proximity to residential areas.

The former site of the Monomeith RAAF Base Is the site been proposed for a new commercial airport In the South East.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

From day one Melbourne Airport was designed, and the land allocated, for parallel east-west and north-south runways. When the current north-south was extended in the south, the stubs for an east-west runway and taxiways were included. The land for the original proposed parallel runways has since been used for other purposes. A parallel north-south runway, rather than east-west, is under consideration:
https://www.melbourneairport.com.au/Corporate/News/Melbourne-Airport-announces-review-of-runway-propo
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

If we need a second airport in Melbourne build one in the South East somewhere. Why not turn Moorabbin Airport [...] into a second airport.

Ahhh, I don't think so. Compare the length of runways necessary at Melbourne Airport with those available at Moorabbin. Nor is there any available land around to extend the runways at Moorabbin.
historian
Sink centre-dandenong rd and take over the golf course. Plenty of room for a ~2,500m runway which is plenty for a domestic airport.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Please try to look a little harder. Click through to the (large pdf warning) 2018 Master Plan. Go to page 142 of the document. The third runway at YMML (southern East-West runway 09R/27L) is well into the planning and approval stages and has a projected opening date of 2023, along with widening and extensions to existing East-West runway 09L/27R.
"LancedDendrite
I hope you will pardon the cynic in me, but when it's taken over 40 years to have something planned, I'll call it progress when work actually starts. In a long life, I've seen more failed plans than I've had hot dinners.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

A third runway at Melbourne Airport hasn't been needed until now.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
A third runway at Melbourne Airport hasn't been needed until now.
"kitchgp"


With a strong enough breeze Melbourne is down to one usable runway. Sydney is the busiest airport, and Melbourne is second. Have a look at the chaos in Sydney when there's a decent westerly and everything has to use runway 25. Only last week, domestic flights out of Sydney were being cancelled simply because there was no room for them to take off.

Contrary to what kitchgp says, I have frequently been late landing in Melbourne due to runway congestion there. I have either been held at Sydney airport waiting for ATC to give us a landing time (therefore avoiding being in the air on hold and burning excess fuel), or sent on a massive detour down into Gippsland before actually turning to aim for the airport. The other side of the coin is waiting to get pushback, taxi and take off clearances.
This has been going on for at least 10 years.
For years, there have been improvements to Melbourne terminals to cater for more and more passengers.
Given the fact that the idea of two more runways was mooted over 40 years ago, any planning process has been lamentably slow. It's no good deciding to build terrific terminals if you can't cater for the aircraft we have now.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

It wasn't needed 40 years ago. It's a matter of when to spend the $3 billion.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
It wasn't needed 40 years ago. It's a matter of when to spend the $3 billion.
kitchgp
Nobody said it was needed 40 years ago. It was envisaged then. Subsequent events show that, when it became needed, the planning process had failed dismally. The latest idea is that the first extra runway is four years away, and heaven knows what a mess Melbourne will become by then.
  trainbrain Chief Commissioner

since when is a plane a choochoo train?
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
since when is a plane a choochoo train?
trainbrain
Well at times we deal in planes, trains and automobiles..........Razz

BigShunter.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
since when is a plane a choochoo train?
Well at times we deal in planes, trains and automobiles..........Razz

BigShunter.
BigShunter

Agreed regards airport congestion, this occasion...Brisbane.

On a PM return from Quilpie, Q., (I travelled there by QR), I've waited on the ground at Toowoomba until the all clear was given that a slot had been allocated for our SkyTrans/Rex milk run flight from Mt Isa to take off and land at Brisbane without necessitating having to circle awaiting a slot to land.

Mike.

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