Level Crossing Removal for Ferguson Street Williamstown

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 12 Nov 2019 17:34
  Altona Loopy Station Master

I can't see the point of changing Ferguson Street. Sparks to Williamstown Beach and Williamstown cross it, and that's your lot; no V/Line pass and no freighters. You don't have the booms down while a succession of trains go by a la Springvale for example. And Williamstown itself is almost an island; it's on it's own sort of peninsula, and you don't go through Williamstown to get to anywhere else. The crossing just doesn't carry heavy traffic.

On top of that, it's one of the safest State ALP seats, so there's no need for pork barrelling.
Valvegear

The traffic using the Ferguson Street crossing is not light and is getting heavier as Willy's population is becoming more dense. It's also the only road that takes Willy traffic to Altona and beyond to Werribee and Geelong. The crossing is at the location where 8 streets / roads converge with complicated roundabouts on either side.

The only solution if you are to remove is to raise the rail with a new elevated station at North Willy ala Carnegie. Is it worth it? Well, if you removed Kororoit Creek Rd crossing you should remove this one. This has more trains than Kororoit Creek Road.

Don't even think about Light Rail, why spend a squillion $ when you have something fit for purpose already?

Sponsored advertisement

  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Norda Fittazroy
The only solution if you are to remove is to raise the rail with a new elevated station at North Willy ala Carnegie. Is it worth it? Well, if you removed Kororoit Creek Rd crossing you should remove this one. This has more trains than Kororoit Creek Road.
"Altoona Loopy"
And I'll bet you that Kororoit Creek Road has a lot more trucks, semis, vans et al than Ferguson Street will ever have.
  trainbrain Chief Commissioner

I'm guessing that the only reason any notice is given to Ferguson St at all is that it's a part of heavy vehicle route schemes, particularly for transport between the refineries and to the rail workshops, along Kororoit Creek Rd and Melbourne Rd.

For anybody upset with the cost, you'd surely have to agree that conversion to light rail, or truncation to North Williamstown, would be an even wiser move economically.
ZH836301
More comebacks than Lazarus, but tells it like it is....................and also annoys the crap of the so called armchair experts that do not like the simple facts.          Welcome back, I enjoy your sarcasm...it brings a smile to me...............just waiting for you to have a shot at me,   but I have a strong  hide..............cheers.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Converting the Williamstown and Altona rail lines is not an economical saving decision, otherwise, the Upfield line would have trams running on it. But that idea was ditched.

Why does no-one talk about converting the Alemain line (that's a quiet line)?
True Believers
If this was an Alamein related thread, it'd get its mention too.

After MM2, you'll have empty trains running between Williamstown and Footscray - light rail (not equivalent to a glorified tram) better matches the passenger loads, and opens up possibilities for more interesting links from Footscray at far reduced expense, be it through VU towards Flemington and Clifton Hill, or up to Maribyrnong.

You see, I'm actually helping your poor Williamstown line by suggesting it, because at that stage those big, empty trains are going to look mighty tempting for a cutback at the next economic downturn.


And now economically saving in someone's mind is degrading the service to light-rail which has less capacity than the existing service. The Williamstown/Altona corridors are to serve the suburbs of Altona, Altona North, Newport, Williamstown, Spotswood (potential development), Yarraville, Seddon, and South Kensington. Werribee line will express past the inner-west via Metro 2.
True Believers

So glad you mentioned Altona too - the thing should be cut back to one station, and the alignment fixed to allow for decent speeds.

If it's still too slow to compete with the direct route, get rid of it completely - the population cannot support a shuttle from Newport.


The inner-west needs to be developed more and this has been happening, have you been to Altona? High density exists along Pier street and there's potential for more development in the future. Altona line could always be used as an opportunity to be a branch line to Point Cook. This is long term thinking, short term thinking may involve light-rail conversions, but there is more to the west than urban sprawl.

A few small unit blocks does not a metropolis make.

And make sure you tell the greenies about that line to Point Cook - they'll love that.


If you upgraded Melbourne's western rail lines, I'm sure the west would have more patronage and more residential growth going upwards. At the moment, the west has a poor-service for transit and because of this, we're building a west-gate road tunnel instead of metro 2.
True Believers

Citation needed.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

After MM2, you'll have empty trains running between Williamstown and Footscray - light rail (not equivalent to a glorified tram) better matches the passenger loads, and opens up possibilities for more interesting links from Footscray at far reduced expense, be it through VU towards Flemington and Clifton Hill, or up to Maribyrnong.

You see, I'm actually helping your poor Williamstown line by suggesting it, because at that stage those big, empty trains are going to look mighty tempting for a cutback at the next economic downturn.
ZH836301

The issue you are noting is the number of empty trains that run through these quieter lines during non-peak.

There are 2 ways to solve this.

1) Cutback on the service (which is what you're suggesting)

2) Make better use of our existing infrastructure by having massive residential/commercial development at all the station sites

I mean like massive redevelopment across every inner suburb, including Williamstown. This is much less controversial than turning the service to light-rail.

This is the way to fix the poor Williamstown line. In fact, the Level Crossing Removal project presents a unique opportunity to sink the railway below and develop high rises above it.

You're right our poor use of vacant empty land blocks and everywhere with single/double story and having the heavy rail infrastructure right there at your doorstep is not economically sound. We should use this opportunity for trying to take advantage of the existing infrastructure by providing more people closer to transit and develop all over Melbourne with lots of medium/high density. This is really needed in the long term.

Point Cook needs a railway in the central district long term, and yes developing Point Cook through routing Altona makes a lot of sense. I'm not a greenie, or whatever.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
That's a hand-waving cop out.

You could increase density massively, but you wouldn't, because a peninsula is just about the worst place for it, as access is heavily restricted.  No sane property developer would consider building over railway lines in that area either, as land values are simply far too low to make it profitable.  Hell, you could double the population and you still wouldn't justify a 50k/hr railway - people are crammed in elsewhere crying out for more trains, and instead we have them rattling around down there doing nothing.

Smaller, shorter vehicles are cheaper to buy and operate, and in particular allow for extensions with far reduced infrastructure expenses.  We are not talking about trams that rattle apart above walking pace, trains such as London deep level sets would be a good example.  Williamstown and Alamein are far more suited to such scales, which would also allow for extensions to create useful, independent metro lines.

Point Cook needs a railway in the central district long term, and yes developing Point Cook through routing Altona makes a lot of sense. I'm not a greenie, or whatever.
True Believers

If you're not a greenie, then you probably don't know that they wouldn't tolerate a train through through RAMSAR Cheetham Wetlands.

It's low density sprawl, all it needs are decent feeder buses to the existing lines.
  bomberswarm2 Locomotive Driver



The only solution if you are to remove is to raise the rail with a new elevated station
Altona Loopy


The only solution is to put the railway under the road.

Well, if you removed Kororoit Creek Rd crossing you should remove this one. This has more trains than Kororoit Creek Road.
Altona Loopy


Kororoit Creek Rd was removed because it was dirt cheap. It didn't require a station rebuild, isn't near any houses with people to object to building it into the sky. Probably the cheapest possible crossing removal within 15km of the CBD by a mile, easy padding. Nothing to do with need.
  Tony M. Locomotive Fireman

I'm guessing that the only reason any notice is given to Ferguson St at all is that it's a part of heavy vehicle route schemes, particularly for transport between the refineries and to the rail workshops, along Kororoit Creek Rd and Melbourne Rd.
ZH836301
I have relatives who live in the area and word on the ground is that this is exactly what's behind it.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
There have been fatal strikes at this crossing in the past. I believe this to be the the reason this crossing is on the list.

https://www.starweekly.com.au/news/1802656-williamstown-north-residents-fear-more-train-deaths/
  Crossover Train Controller

Location: St. Albans Victoria
I'm guessing that the only reason any notice is given to Ferguson St at all is that it's a part of heavy vehicle route schemes, particularly for transport between the refineries and to the rail workshops, along Kororoit Creek Rd and Melbourne Rd.
I have relatives who live in the area and word on the ground is that this is exactly what's behind it.
Tony M.
Which seems to me to be a good reason for dealing with the crossing .
  Crossover Train Controller

Location: St. Albans Victoria
I'm guessing that the only reason any notice is given to Ferguson St at all is that it's a part of heavy vehicle route schemes, particularly for transport between the refineries and to the rail workshops, along Kororoit Creek Rd and Melbourne Rd.
I have relatives who live in the area and word on the ground is that this is exactly what's behind it.
Which seems to me to be a good reason for dealing with the crossing .
  Crossover Train Controller

Location: St. Albans Victoria
I'm guessing that the only reason any notice is given to Ferguson St at all is that it's a part of heavy vehicle route schemes, particularly for transport between the refineries and to the rail workshops, along Kororoit Creek Rd and Melbourne Rd.
I have relatives who live in the area and word on the ground is that this is exactly what's behind it.
Which seems to me to be a good reason for dealing with the crossing .
  bevans Site Admin
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Further details including the way it will be replaced.  

https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/deadly-level-crossing-to-go-as-works-ramp-up-in-the-west

Still believe this is a complete waste of money for the 6 trains per hour.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Further details including the way it will be replaced.  

https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/deadly-level-crossing-to-go-as-works-ramp-up-in-the-west

Still believe this is a complete waste of money for the 6 trains per hour.
bevans
It is however on a busy road and has two junctions on either side of the crossing that make the traffic issues worse.

In terms of rail traffic, it's a lower priority, but the road network is a nightmare in the area.

I'm sure there were crossings that were higher priority than this one, but I won't say this particular crossing is a complete waste. If any crossing that shouldn't of ended up in the original list, it would be the Eel race road crossing, which was such a local crossing they decided to close it all together.

Even Werribee street is starting to make more sense in context of western rail plan and how the area has gotten much more road traffic due to housing growth in the west.

I wouldn't completely ignore road traffic in what is prioritised, since it's definitely a determining factor, not just the railway.
  Adogs Chief Train Controller


I'm sure there were crossings that were higher priority than this one, but I won't say this particular crossing is a complete waste. If any crossing that shouldn't of ended up in the original list, it would be the Eel race road crossing, which was such a local crossing they decided to close it all together.

True Believers

We're getting off topic, but Eel Race Rd was actually a pretty busy crossing, as it funnelled all the traffic out of Seaford Nth onto the Nepean Hwy.  They closed it because it was easier to combine it and Station St in Carrum into the new (larger) McLeod Rd intersection.  

Sure you're not thinking of Mascot Ave the other side of the river in Bonbeach?
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

Further details including the way it will be replaced.  

https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/deadly-level-crossing-to-go-as-works-ramp-up-in-the-west

Still believe this is a complete waste of money for the 6 trains per hour.
bevans

It would be a waste of money if it were just about trains. But as said elsewhere, this crossing removal is entirely to do with re-routing trucks heading west.

I mean, most of the LX removals are just about improving road traffic flow...
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I'd do Lara before this one. This is classic looking after your electorate type stuff.
Lara should've been done when the station was rebuilt.

With the SG line they might have a problem. Not enough space for road over either.
John.Z

There is plenty of space for road over rail. We have plenty of such road over rail in a much shorter distance in Sydney. Take Richardsons crescent near tempe station. That is an up and over in a much shorter distance then station lake road at Lara. Mind you the suggestion for a road directly from station lake road to mclelland avenue also make good sense.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Closing giffard street is not viable I feel because it is a decent through road in itself looking at it on google earth and is cole street really big enough to handle that extra traffic. Considering how low volume this line is and how slow the trains run through there I don't see a need to close it down as per Myrtone.
  TrackRailroad Train Controller

Location: Frankston Line
I also don't think this crossing was a high priority to be removed. The line is quiet and Williamston is not destined for massive population growth or increased rail traffic.

There are much more deserving crossings to be removed such as Madden Grove, Tooronga and Glenferrie Roads on the  Glen Waverley line  or even on the Cragieburn or Frankston lines.
  TrackRailroad Train Controller

Location: Frankston Line
And I meant to write Williamstown**
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
Further details including the way it will be replaced.  

https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/deadly-level-crossing-to-go-as-works-ramp-up-in-the-west

Still believe this is a complete waste of money for the 6 trains per hour.
bevans
It's only 2 trains per hour at Lilydale and Mooroolbark but they're removing the crossings there, the same thing happened with Bayswater's two crossings despite having the same hopeless train frequency (likewise with the Upfield line which isn't much better). At least if level crossings are being removed across the board it leaves more space to work with for future upgrades (such as track duplication and more trains), and a few less Darwin Awards to give away.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
And I meant to write Williamstown**
chi01

Did you also mean to write Craigieburn Question

M.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
I would have spent that money on station street Deer Park before any Williamstown work.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Closing giffard street is not viable I feel because it is a decent through road in itself looking at it on google earth and is cole street really big enough to handle that extra traffic. Considering how low volume this line is and how slow the trains run through there I don't see a need to close it down as per Myrtone.
simstrain
You could easily put in a road over rail solution at Giffard street at a later date.

While the Williamstown crossing isn't the worst one in Melbourne, I still think the intersection is quite busy and congested and would warrant a grade separation.

Comparing trains per hour on a line is redundant, since the road traffic also plays a part in the congestion at a level crossing. Hence why Lilydale line was done, mostly due to the road traffic not the amount of trains.

And yes I agree that Puckle street Moonee Ponds, or the Kensington one or all of the remaining Glen Waverly ones are probably more busier than the Williamstown line, but the Williamstown one is a pretty easy one to get out of the way first, since the line can be shut with little issues and the grade separation is pretty straight forward. It's not a completely quiet level crossing either, no-one seem to complain about Evans road despite it holding no traffic at all.

Sponsored advertisement

Subscribers: bevans, Myrtone, Nightfire, reubstar6

Display from: