Melbourne Airport Rail Link

 
  8077 Chief Train Controller

Location: Crossing the Rubicon
A standout requirement for the line is frequency and reliability.


We have guaranteed a trip of less than 20 minutes to the city, based on passenger research and because that’s how long a great run on a SkyBus takes you today.

It is the benchmark, just as it is on price. We have guaranteed the trains will leave every 10 minutes. That’s six in an hour, or twice as many as you’d get from Glen Waverley station on a Sunday afternoon.
The Age

The price is proposed for $20 per trip.  Is this a sweet spot price or too expensive?  Why does it need to change from a Myki service tier price?

To set a price above the current myki prices is setting a premium.  why?

10 minute service is another requirement which is a must have.

Above all reliability is the staple requirement and cannot be compromised.

The plans to reduce 700 car parks for more roads is a symptom of no train entrenching a culture of ars once again.  Those 700 car parks will be added in the long term section meaning no net loss.

The airport station needs to be high accessible at the terminal but I think there is more than 1 terminal now and Melbourne and will there be more as the years pass?

Why does the airail consortium look better than a government line with Myki?

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  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

There is no mention of a $20 fare in AirRail’s Proposal Factsheet. The phrase is “Fair ticket price”. The $20 is what those interviewed would like to see. The Airport CEO was equally evasive in his Age article; “$20 or thereabouts”.

At a total cost of $15 billion (about the cost of 5 runways), even if they achieve the projected figures, the cost per passenger is going to be way north of $50 so someone is going to have stump up a lot of money. It is unlikely to be the consortium.

Airport > Keilor East > Albion > Sunshine > Tottenham (optional) > West Footscray > Middle Footscray > Footscray > South Kensington (optional) > North Melbourne > Southern Cross at $2 billion and Zone 1 + 2 $4.40 ($3 as far as Sunshine) doesn’t sound too bad.
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

AirRail is only stumping you $5billon at this stage. With the remaining 10 from the state and federal governments respectively. Even then at $20 that’s 250 Million tickets to brake even let alone any return on their investment. Melbourne Airport Handled 36 million passengers 18/19 FY. If every one of those 36 Million passengers caught the train it would still take AirTrain 7 year’s to break even. If roughly 25% of those 36 Million chose the train (based on figures of % of arrivals by train at Sydney airport) it would take AirTrain 28 years to break even on $5 Billion. $20 me thinks not.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

I just find it truly amazing that if you include air train contribution, $15 Billion is going to be spent on a flipping train to the airport. To an airport that has less bus network coverage than Adelaide Airport which has than a quarter of the patronage of Melbourne. That is a chronic waste. Especially when our Bus Network is dying on its ar$e, the tram network is largely neglected and parts of our heavy rail network is creaking at the seams.

Just $5 Billion spent on the existing networks would do wonders.

Michael
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

I think the following would be the best outcome based on the rumoured State Government plans:
  • The State Government coughs up whatever it will be for the branch off the Sunbury line to the Airport (new track pair beside the freight line, line beside Airport Drive, tunnel under the airport. Let's just for the sake of the argument assume this will be $2 billion. This could easily be completed by the opening of the Metro Tunnel.
  • The Fed's $5 billion goes towards the construction of the tunnel as part of the Western Rail Plan. The state government will chip in the rest of the money. The tunnel itself probably will only begin construction once the Metro Tunnel opens.
  • Melton line will be electrified to coincide with the opening of the Metro Tunnel.
  • Wyndham Vale line may have to wait for the Western Rail Plan tunnel to open before being electrified with the additional track pair for the Geelong line.
  • As a result of the Airport line initially being essentially an extension of the existing Metro Trains network, it will be considered in Zone 2 and will not have any "access fees". The compromise is that High Capacity Trains will run to the airport rather than a specialised fleet.
  • Assuming 24tph when the Metro Tunnel opens, 6tph from the Airport, 6tph from Melton and the remainder from Sunbury should be sufficient. A short extension of RRL to Albion might be needed to maximise the benefits of the tunnel to take Bendigo line trains somewhat out of the equation.
  • When the second tunnel eventually opens, it will be used by the Airport line and the Geelong line (and the Ballarat line if needed). This leaves plenty of capacity for more trains along basically all lines through Sunshine.
There is no doubt that more capacity is needed, even when the Metro Tunnel opens for the west. However in order to get the Airport Line built quickly enough, the short extension makes sense. In the first few years the service will be slow and inconvenient (except for those on the Pakenham/Cranbourne lines who get potentially a direct service), however it will also be cheap and avoid unnecessary private sector funding.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

A standout requirement for the line is frequency and reliability.


We have guaranteed a trip of less than 20 minutes to the city, based on passenger research and because that’s how long a great run on a SkyBus takes you today.

It is the benchmark, just as it is on price. We have guaranteed the trains will leave every 10 minutes. That’s six in an hour, or twice as many as you’d get from Glen Waverley station on a Sunday afternoon.

The price is proposed for $20 per trip.  Is this a sweet spot price or too expensive?  Why does it need to change from a Myki service tier price?

To set a price above the current myki prices is setting a premium.  why?

10 minute service is another requirement which is a must have.

Above all reliability is the staple requirement and cannot be compromised.

The plans to reduce 700 car parks for more roads is a symptom of no train entrenching a culture of ars once again.  Those 700 car parks will be added in the long term section meaning no net loss.

The airport station needs to be high accessible at the terminal but I think there is more than 1 terminal now and Melbourne and will there be more as the years pass?

Why does the airail consortium look better than a government line with Myki?
8077
If the Government has any sense it will reject any input from the AirTrain consortium. They will want their pound of flesh for their $5 Billion. Minister Allan should tell them to get stuffed.

Michael
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Changing trains at Sunshine. Costing 15 Billion.
Even the 15 Billion in general is extreme. Just build a direct bus lane/Busway all the way into the city out to the airport. Might as well get on building Metro 2 and the Suburban Rail Loop, two Projects actually worth their money
ptvcommuter
Well MM2 is worth the money. SRL is a fantasy that is on par with yours truly getting a date with Hallie Berry!

Michael
  LeroyW Junior Train Controller

Location: Awaiting MM2
Changing trains at Sunshine. Costing 15 Billion.
Even the 15 Billion in general is extreme. Just build a direct bus lane/Busway all the way into the city out to the airport. Might as well get on building Metro 2 and the Suburban Rail Loop, two Projects actually worth their money
Well MM2 is worth the money. SRL is a fantasy that is on par with yours truly getting a date with Hallie Berry!

Michael
mejhammers1
SRL is Dan's fantasy, and thus given the plan for the SE section is to start digging before the next election, that part will happen.

If you look at SRLs newsletter (was back in September) they conveniently label MARL from Sunshine to Airport as simply the 'North Western' section of the loop. Maybe they have finally learned something from the freeway lobby - build it in parts so the demand is there to 'fill in' the rest.

Imagine once the NW section and SE sections are done: you could build a case for Box Hill to Reservoir ("Heavy rail to Doncaster!!" "Connections to La Trobe Uni!!") and then you're only a few kms of tunnel from the whole thing being done. Heck, even a State Liberal government might see the wins in completing the loop and giving their Eastern suburbs a one seat ride to the airport.
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

Changing trains at Sunshine. Costing 15 Billion.
Even the 15 Billion in general is extreme. Just build a direct bus lane/Busway all the way into the city out to the airport. Might as well get on building Metro 2 and the Suburban Rail Loop, two Projects actually worth their money
Well MM2 is worth the money. SRL is a fantasy that is on par with yours truly getting a date with Hallie Berry!

Michael
SRL is Dan's fantasy, and thus given the plan for the SE section is to start digging before the next election, that part will happen.

If you look at SRLs newsletter (was back in September) they conveniently label MARL from Sunshine to Airport as simply the 'North Western' section of the loop. Maybe they have finally learned something from the freeway lobby - build it in parts so the demand is there to 'fill in' the rest.

Imagine once the NW section and SE sections are done: you could build a case for Box Hill to Reservoir ("Heavy rail to Doncaster!!" "Connections to La Trobe Uni!!") and then you're only a few kms of tunnel from the whole thing being done. Heck, even a State Liberal government might see the wins in completing the loop and giving their Eastern suburbs a one seat ride to the airport.
LeroyW

You're on the money.  Fantasy or not, they're going to start work on the SRL pretty quick.  How long it takes to finish is anyone's guess, but parts will be built for sure, and once sections are in action there'll be pressure on whoever is in power to "finish the job".
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger

You're on the money.  Fantasy or not, they're going to start work on the SRL pretty quick.  How long it takes to finish is anyone's guess, but parts will be built for sure, and once sections are in action there'll be pressure on whoever is in power to "finish the job".
Adogs
In a sense, that's the way Freeways justify themselves. Build a short segment of freeway, create demand by inducing traffic and therefore justifying the next section.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
I just find it truly amazing that if you include air train contribution, $15 Billion is going to be spent on a flipping train to the airport. To an airport that has less bus network coverage than Adelaide Airport which has than a quarter of the patronage of Melbourne. That is a chronic waste. Especially when our Bus Network is dying on its ar$e, the tram network is largely neglected and parts of our heavy rail network is creaking at the seams.

Just $5 Billion spent on the existing networks would do wonders.
mejhammers
Spot on.

Airport rail is a fantasy of sandbelters who will use it twice a year, along with the vain who think its absence makes Melbourne look like a hick outpost.  Why shouldn't users, the majority who won't live here and contribute via taxes, pay an access fee to help fund it?

It will be useless to the half of the city doesn't live on the leafy side of the Yarra, yet alone workers, who are far better served by buses since the majority live relatively close.  Buses which don't even exist at the moment for either market, apart from Broadmeadows and a token service between Sunbury and Airport West.  And if it wasn't a big enough waste, we have people calling for stations in industrial areas in Sunshine or in the backlots of Airport West, it's delusional.  

Sure, once Skybus can't cope, go ahead.  But until then, it is nowhere near the most pressing transport issue in the city, or even to the airport itself.  If people really cared about airport transport, and not just cooking up a great big pie in the sky to make us look more European, they'd be calling for direct, trunk buses running at decent frequencies, for example:

*Greensborough - Broadmeadows - Airport
*Box Hill - Heidelberg - Coburg - Airport - Sunbury
*Wyndham/Laverton - Sunshine - Airport
*Melton - Sydenham - Airport

Longer term you could dump Upfield and reroute the end of that line to the airport to function as a trunk for the north, infinitely more practical than just joining dots to Roxburgh Park.  The SRL (forgetting it's a pipedream in itself) makes far more sense running the shorter route from Heidelberg beneath Preston and Coburg to provide an alternative to clogged Bell St.  

It's naive to pretend the mere presence of an station at the airport makes any difference to workers or north/western residents, and really, without vast upgrades to the existing networks, it won't even hold much value to those in the south/east outside the CBD.  Why would you take a stopping all stations from the outer south/east when you can just drive, get a lift, or pay for a hire car?
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Just wondering Mr ZH going right off track....of your whereabouts during your extended absences.

Of course you can feel free to tell me to mind my own business as well...Smile

Mike
  CraigieburnLineUser Locomotive Fireman

I just find it truly amazing that if you include air train contribution, $15 Billion is going to be spent on a flipping train to the airport. To an airport that has less bus network coverage than Adelaide Airport which has than a quarter of the patronage of Melbourne. That is a chronic waste. Especially when our Bus Network is dying on its ar$e, the tram network is largely neglected and parts of our heavy rail network is creaking at the seams.

Just $5 Billion spent on the existing networks would do wonders.
Spot on.

Airport rail is a fantasy of sandbelters who will use it twice a year, along with the vain who think its absence makes Melbourne look like a hick outpost.  Why shouldn't users, the majority who won't live here and contribute via taxes, pay an access fee to help fund it?

It will be useless to the half of the city doesn't live on the leafy side of the Yarra, yet alone workers, who are far better served by buses since the majority live relatively close.  Buses which don't even exist at the moment for either market, apart from Broadmeadows and a token service between Sunbury and Airport West.  And if it wasn't a big enough waste, we have people calling for stations in industrial areas in Sunshine or in the backlots of Airport West, it's delusional.  

Sure, once Skybus can't cope, go ahead.  But until then, it is nowhere near the most pressing transport issue in the city, or even to the airport itself.  If people really cared about airport transport, and not just cooking up a great big pie in the sky to make us look more European, they'd be calling for direct, trunk buses running at decent frequencies, for example:

*Greensborough - Broadmeadows - Airport
*Box Hill - Heidelberg - Coburg - Airport - Sunbury
*Wyndham/Laverton - Sunshine - Airport
*Melton - Sydenham - Airport

Longer term you could dump Upfield and reroute the end of that line to the airport to function as a trunk for the north, infinitely more practical than just joining dots to Roxburgh Park.  The SRL (forgetting it's a pipedream in itself) makes far more sense running the shorter route from Heidelberg beneath Preston and Coburg to provide an alternative to clogged Bell St.  

It's naive to pretend the mere presence of an station at the airport makes any difference to workers or north/western residents, and really, without vast upgrades to the existing networks, it won't even hold much value to those in the south/east outside the CBD.  Why would you take a stopping all stations from the outer south/east when you can just drive, get a lift, or pay for a hire car?
ZH836301
Yes it's not too much of a pressure PT issue at the moment and an upgrade to buses may be a better way to handle this then a  $15bn at a rail line that is hardly likely to break even, but it looks like we are going to get a rail line to the airport regardless so we should be looking to maximise it's patronage. Plus in doing so you might help out those who work at the airport or need a route to the city in what is mostly a transport blackhole. Trying to get to the city takes ages from out that way where there is very little rail (going from the 59 terminus to the city takes near on an hour). Further if you provide a station around Airport West people who currently use the train will have an alternative to the Craigieburn and Sunbury lines.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
That's the point - extra stations won't bump up the patronage, they'll just add to the cost and slow the service.

Even with all the stops a stone's throw within each other, and the lack of priority, the tram from Airport West takes less than 15min from the terminus to Essendon station, or 10-15min for buses from East Keilor.  From there it's 15min to the city, hardly terrible.

Just wondering Mr ZH going right off track....of your whereabouts during your extended absences.
Vinelander

I ascend to a higher plane.
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

How about deliver the Airport Rail via the Suburban Rail Loop. 15 Billion for Airport Rail, absolutely not. Deliver it via SRL and then build RRL 2.0.

Southern Cross to Seymour, Shepparton and Bendigo via Airport is a better idea, separating metro and VLine. Direct tunnel would be for the new electrified 200-220km/h Geelong and Ballarat Trains while the Bendigo/Seymour/Shepp services travel via current RRL and then via new new tracks separate to the SRL.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Just wondering Mr ZH going right off track....of your whereabouts during your extended absences.
Vinelander

I need time to allow my faith in humanity to return.


How about deliver the Airport Rail via the Suburban Rail Loop. 15 Billion for Airport Rail, absolutely not. Deliver it via SRL and then build RRL 2.0.
ptvcommuter

So our current railways are bursting at the seams, our trams mobile roadblocks, and our buses non-existent, and the solution...

A magical gazillion dollar loop-da-loop planned via crayon on a Melways wallmap.

Yeah, that will solve everything.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Just wondering Mr ZH going right off track....of your whereabouts during your extended absences.

I need time to allow my faith in humanity to return.


How about deliver the Airport Rail via the Suburban Rail Loop. 15 Billion for Airport Rail, absolutely not. Deliver it via SRL and then build RRL 2.0.

So our current railways are bursting at the seams, our trams mobile roadblocks, and our buses non-existent, and the solution...

A magical gazillion dollar loop-da-loop planned via crayon on a Melways wallmap.

Yeah, that will solve everything.
ZH836301
Yep totally agree ZH. The Melbourne Metro which is sorely needed is running over budget at this early stage. One can only imagine that SRL wet dream will be like. What I worry about is the lack of analysis when it comes to Public Transit projects.

Take for instance the high capacity signalling. The Government is under the impression they will have signalling installed coping with Victoria line frequencies. The Victoria line can achieve 36 trains an hour because it is a self contained line, with no branches and running one type of train. The Vast majority of the MM corridor will have a mixture of Metro, V/Line and Freight.

Melbourne Airport is going to turn from a virtual Public Transport desert to Massive rail head. Why not concentrate on getting decent Public Bus Services in the interim instead of just 4 buses an hour from Broady and 2 Buses an hour from Airport West and Sunbury. Also why not extend the 59 tram? Forget about the Airport Line and SRL Projects, they are not pressing at this stage.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Take for instance the high capacity signalling. The Government is under the impression they will have signalling installed coping with Victoria line frequencies. The Victoria line can achieve 36 trains an hour because it is a self contained line, with no branches and running one type of train. The Vast majority of the MM corridor will have a mixture of Metro, V/Line and Freight.
mejhammers1
In fairness, I don’t think anyone in the government realistically expects 36tph through the Metro Tunnel. But they will be able to achieve higher frequencies than what’s currently possible, so it’s hardly a wasted investment.

Indeed, it would be well-suited to deployment on the Clifton Hill and Newport lines as a far cheaper interim alternative to Metro 2.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

@potatoinmymouth Fair enough. It will however be more difficult to implement high capcity signalling in mixed traffic corridors.

Michael
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Toll Rail!  (or rent-seeking?)
https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/airport-rail-tunnel-could-come-with-extra-tolls-for-taxpayers

The private consortium wanting to build the airport rail project would charge the state government a negotiated fee every time a Metro or V/Line train is run through the new tunnel.

The toll would be charged in exchange for building, operating and maintaining the twin 7-kilometre tunnels.

In response to questions about its market-led proposal, an AirRail spokesman confirmed the tunnel would have capacity to run six airport trains per hour.

In addition to these services, the state government could run four new non-airport Metro or V/Line services per hour through the tunnel, but would have to pay up every time.

The AirRail spokesman said the "access payment" would help the consortium recoup the cost of building and maintaining the tunnel. It would produce a “better result” for taxpayers, compared with “any other alternative”, he said.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
I am confused and I apologize.

What tunnels are we talking about and will the entire airport rail project use dedicated tracks now?

Why would Metro Trains need to access the tunnels for the airport link and what would Vline when they have their own racks we just spent billions $$ building?
  Carnot Minister for Railways

I am confused and I apologize.

What tunnels are we talking about and will the entire airport rail project use dedicated tracks now?

Why would Metro Trains need to access the tunnels for the airport link and what would Vline when they have their own racks we just spent billions $$ building?
bevans
7 km long tunnels are from SCS to West Footscray?

AirRail want V/line and Metro to rent them to pay for them....
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

@bevans

The article references the tunnel proposed between Sunshine and SCS. This tunnel needs to also carry regional services for the state governments western rail plan and the federal governments HSR to Geelong.

RRL is at capacity and will most likely be sparked to form the new metro service to WYV or Melton depending on what goes into MM1.

Access payments are nothing new, the same deal shafted Sydney when they built there airport rail. For $13 Billion you’d hope to get more than 10TPH, properly fitted you could push 24TPH. Sounds like a cheap option by ‘AirTrain’.

The state government is wanting to go it alone and have full control of the tunnel. Happy to stage the project over serval years if it means the end goal is achieved. The feds just want the train to the Airport so they can say they invested in Victoria. They don’t give a toss if it screws us for the next 20 years.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
I also believe the Brisbane Airtrain service charges access fees on top of the fare to recuperate the infrastructure investment.

Mike.
  tayser Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
The Railpage scrape of the article is wrong/out of date - go to the source: https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/airport-rail-tunnel-could-come-with-extra-tolls-for-taxpayers-20191113-p53a8f.html  It's 14TPH non-airport Vline/Metro services per hour, not 4TPH.

Also, go to the source Age article and you'll note the references to how Vline is charged access fees to the suburban network and from ARTC on services to Albury... it's not a new concept even locally.

The key question is: how much and will it be exorbitant.

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