Climate Change Confusion

 
  AheadMatthewawsome Junior Train Controller

Location: Opening Train Lines
According to NASA we're about to enter a period of low solar activity - probably for the next few decades.

Sunspots are regions on the Sun with magnetic fields thousands of times stronger than the Earth's. Fewer of them at the point of maximum solar activity means fewer dangerous blasts of radiation.

Both the forecast and the improving ability to make such predictions about space weather are good news for mission planners who can schedule human exploration missions during periods of lower radiation, when possible.

Weakening solar activity is also blamed for the increasingly bad weather in the northern hemisphere (unstable polar vortex activity) - note the relatively early winter snow this autumn in America's mid-west and northern Europe.

Mini-ice age anyone?
don_dunstan
About 4 to 2 years ago, in the South East of Australia. There was sort of a mini ice age with temperatures going down to 0C in Sydney during June and July.

It might not just be the northern hemisphere, it might be down under.

Sponsored advertisement

  arctic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Zurich
According to NASA we're about to enter a period of low solar activity - probably for the next few decades.

Sunspots are regions on the Sun with magnetic fields thousands of times stronger than the Earth's. Fewer of them at the point of maximum solar activity means fewer dangerous blasts of radiation.

Both the forecast and the improving ability to make such predictions about space weather are good news for mission planners who can schedule human exploration missions during periods of lower radiation, when possible.

Weakening solar activity is also blamed for the increasingly bad weather in the northern hemisphere (unstable polar vortex activity) - note the relatively early winter snow this autumn in America's mid-west and northern Europe.

Mini-ice age anyone?
don_dunstan
Also NASA Smile
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Also NASA
arctic

Assuming anthropomorphic climate change is real (which it isn't) there's absolutely nothing that anyone in Australia can do to avert the death and destruction awaiting us because nothing that we do here will may any material difference to the outcome. Turkey alone is building another 50 brand new coal fired plants, China some two hundred. We could go carbon neutral overnight and it wouldn't make a fig of difference - less than 0.6% according to CSIRO. But you live in Europe though don't you so I guess those numbers don't really apply to you anyway.

Nobody - no reasonably well off person - will make personal sacrifices in the developed world if they knew what it really entailed - I bet you're the sort of person who flies alot - and I bet you also consume lots of nice new things all the time. Safe to assume since you're living in a really highly developed nation. You probably have all the latest computers, phones, cars and other personal conveniences that mark living in a developed country. You throw away things that are a couple of years out of date, you only buy brand new household goods and clothes. You even love buying imported luxuries like fresh tropical fruit from the other side of the globe regardless of how much carbon was spewed into the atmosphere to get it to your plate.

If I'm right about all that then you, sir, are a hypocrite. You go around banging the drum about climate change but you won't do a single thing to change your own behavior outside of buying feel-good greenie credits on your electricity or carbon off-sets. But stop driving your car? Stop flying? That'd be a bridge too far wouldn't it.

You've obviously drunk the Kool-Aid so there's no point in trying to argue with you anyway.
  arctic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Zurich
Also NASA

Assuming anthropomorphic climate change is real (which it isn't) there's absolutely nothing that anyone in Australia can do to avert the death and destruction awaiting us because nothing that we do here will may any material difference to the outcome. Turkey alone is building another 50 brand new coal fired plants, China some two hundred. We could go carbon neutral overnight and it wouldn't make a fig of difference - less than 0.6% according to CSIRO. But you live in Europe though don't you so I guess those numbers don't really apply to you anyway.

Nobody - no reasonably well off person - will make personal sacrifices in the developed world if they knew what it really entailed - I bet you're the sort of person who flies alot - and I bet you also consume lots of nice new things all the time. Safe to assume since you're living in a really highly developed nation. You probably have all the latest computers, phones, cars and other personal conveniences that mark living in a developed country. You throw away things that are a couple of years out of date, you only buy brand new household goods and clothes. You even love buying imported luxuries like fresh tropical fruit from the other side of the globe regardless of how much carbon was spewed into the atmosphere to get it to your plate.

If I'm right about all that then you, sir, are a hypocrite. You go around banging the drum about climate change but you won't do a single thing to change your own behavior outside of buying feel-good greenie credits on your electricity or carbon off-sets. But stop driving your car? Stop flying? That'd be a bridge too far wouldn't it.

You've obviously drunk the Kool-Aid so there's no point in trying to argue with you anyway.
don_dunstan
? I was just pointing out the same NASA you referenced also has related the Sun activity with global temperature change. Why then the personal attack?
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Angela Merkel systematically dismantling Germany/Europe’s nuclear energy sector (luckily she’s not killed France’s industry - yet) - Germany doing MORE to damage the planet’s climate than an entirely zero carbon producing Australia could ‘fix’.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Also NASA

Assuming anthropomorphic climate change is real (which it isn't) there's absolutely nothing that anyone in Australia can do to avert the death and destruction awaiting us because nothing that we do here will may any material difference to the outcome. Turkey alone is building another 50 brand new coal fired plants, China some two hundred. We could go carbon neutral overnight and it wouldn't make a fig of difference - less than 0.6% according to CSIRO. But you live in Europe though don't you so I guess those numbers don't really apply to you anyway.

Nobody - no reasonably well off person - will make personal sacrifices in the developed world if they knew what it really entailed - I bet you're the sort of person who flies alot - and I bet you also consume lots of nice new things all the time. Safe to assume since you're living in a really highly developed nation. You probably have all the latest computers, phones, cars and other personal conveniences that mark living in a developed country. You throw away things that are a couple of years out of date, you only buy brand new household goods and clothes. You even love buying imported luxuries like fresh tropical fruit from the other side of the globe regardless of how much carbon was spewed into the atmosphere to get it to your plate.

If I'm right about all that then you, sir, are a hypocrite. You go around banging the drum about climate change but you won't do a single thing to change your own behavior outside of buying feel-good greenie credits on your electricity or carbon off-sets. But stop driving your car? Stop flying? That'd be a bridge too far wouldn't it.

You've obviously drunk the Kool-Aid so there's no point in trying to argue with you anyway.
don_dunstan
Don,
Really 50 x coal fired plants in Turkey??? Where did you get this from?

- Turkey population 80m, ~3 x of Australia (hint how many coal fired plants to we have?)
- Australia makes ~1.5mtpa of aluminium, Turkey 1/5 of that, so that.
- Hint: The development index of Turkey vs Australia is also a clue on how much power the average house hold uses.

Turkey had grand plans to build 70GW of coal fired capacity, most if not all cancelled leaving country with 19 GW of capacity.
Only 2GW is under construction as of Aug 2019. SA could probably build that in wind power.

The President wanted to switch from imported black coal to domestic lignite for balance of trade purposes but the locals have waved the Env middle finger and said no thankyou.

As far as China is concerned yes they are being built but many are to replace existing in cities or polluting old technology and of the existing China has dozens of coal plants just collecting dust with no demand in part due to curtailment of aluminium production.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
? I was just pointing out the same NASA you referenced also has related the Sun activity with global temperature change. Why then the personal attack?
arctic
Because you're a hypocrite. If you really believed in your cause you'd do everything that I've listed there - stop flying, stop driving, don't use electricity off the grid AT ALL. Don't consume anything (especially plastics), don't buy food that has come from outside of your district, don't buy new appliances, don't throw away old appliances (especially if they still work).

If you really believe that anthropomorphic climate change is a serious threat to humanity - and it sounds like you do - then stop being a hypocrite and do everything on my list.
  arctic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Zurich
? I was just pointing out the same NASA you referenced also has related the Sun activity with global temperature change. Why then the personal attack?
Because you're a hypocrite. If you really believed in your cause you'd do everything that I've listed there - stop flying, stop driving, don't use electricity off the grid AT ALL. Don't consume anything (especially plastics), don't buy food that has come from outside of your district, don't buy new appliances, don't throw away old appliances (especially if they still work).

If you really believe that anthropomorphic climate change is a serious threat to humanity - and it sounds like you do - then stop being a hypocrite and do everything on my list.
don_dunstan
In this case, let me respond to your somewhat over the top post, just sticking to the simple facts:

DD:Nobody - no reasonably well off person - will make personal sacrifices in the developed world if they knew what it really entailed - I bet you're the sort of person who flies alot –

-“a lot” is subjective, whatever I say, you might say it’s a lot. However whenever on local travel it’s the train, international travel for work is air, maybe 6 times per year. However in 2016 I boarded planes 65 times. So a cut of 90%.

DD:and I bet you also consume lots of nice new things all the time.

-              Not really and nor does the average Swiss either.

DD:Safe to assume since you're living in a really highly developed nation. You probably have all the latest computers,

-              Youngest personal computer is about 11 years old. I brought them from OZ.

DD: Phones

-              Youngest phone is 2014 vintage. No plans to upgrade.

DD:Cars

-              No motorized transport owned at all in my family (nor provided by my company), Local commuting is train / bus or main form of transport bicycle which is ridden most days. I rode it to work today and then rode it to meet a friend at the pub. He also rode his bicycle.

DD:and other personal conveniences that mark living in a developed country. You throw away things that are a couple of years out of date,

-              Not really, for example, I have a Sumsung flat screen that broke, that I am in the process of repairing. I repaired our second hand washer a couple of times, it predates mz arrival here so maybe 10 years old?

DD:you only buy brand new household goods

-              Not really, Washer, dryer and old fridge are all second hand though I had to buy my first new fridge in 25 years this year.

DD:and clothes.

-              Yes clothes are generally replaced with new when worn out.

DD:You even love buying imported luxuries like fresh tropical fruit from the other side of the globe regardless of how much carbon was spewed into the atmosphere to get it to your plate.

-               Not really, these tend to be expensive and rarely available, at least where we shop. Sometimes we go to the outback steakhouse in Zurich and enjoy a smeg XXXX beer. Maybe the odd Aussie wine is in the supermarket, nothing from the other side of the globe. I did buy some manufactured items from Australia for my second job.

DD:If I'm right about all that then you, sir, are a hypocrite. You go around banging the drum about climate change

-              I have rarely commented on CC and don’t believe I ever articulated an opinion. Its not what YOU think it is.

DD:but you won't do a single thing to change your own behaviour

-              Buggers me how you could possibly know this. See above, but the main drivers are not about climate change, though it plays a part I guess. I could if I wanted to get a gas guzzler or two, fly everywhere, trash all my worldly goods and replace them. But I see not reason to, doing so won’t make my life better and arguably it will make it worse.

DD:outside of buying feel-good greenie credits on your electricity or carbon off-sets.

-              ? Power in CH is already basically carbon free. When I was in OZ, I was the first guy on my street to install panels on my own cost. 12 years later still going. I don’t depend on “carbon credits” to “feel good”.

DD:But stop driving your car? Stop flying? That'd be a bridge too far wouldn't it.

-               Both largely done.

DD: You've obviously drunk the Kool-Aid so there's no point in trying to argue with you anyway.

Again, I don’t believe I have actually articulated a position on climate change on this board. All I did was point to other Nasa research that brought together the activity of the sun with global temperature rise.

Cheers
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Meanwhile,Arctic old son, how's the weather in Zurich? at a bit of a loose end for a couple of months and since daughter seems to spend most of her time back packing around the world,(and I pay for) I can't see why I can't take up this pastime.
  arctic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Zurich
Meanwhile,Arctic old son, how's the weather in Zurich? at a bit of a loose end for a couple of months and since daughter seems to spend most of her time back packing around the world,(and I pay for) I can't see why I can't take up this pastime.
wobert
Its arctic cold right now, riding my bike is a chellenge:lol:. Do it! Its a nice place to visit (or live). Alps are spectacular right now. Cheers
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud

Again, I don’t believe I have actually articulated a position on climate change on this board. All I did was point to other Nasa research that brought together the activity of the sun with global temperature rise.

Cheers
arctic
Okay you're halfway there - now all you have to do is grow all your own food, only buy second-hand everything (including clothes) and start walking everywhere. We are lucky enough in suburban Adelaide to have a massive veggie patch and at the moment I only buy about half my fruit/veg requirements from the supermarket. If I had bigger rainwater tanks I could probably bump it up another notch and grow nearly all our table veggies - our rain is just too erratic here in SA. I'm going to a factory seconds PVC rainwater tank auction on Monday so here's hoping - another 5,000 litres would be wonderful.

I'm sorry if I came across strongly but I'm probably one of the lowest 'carbon' people that I know with the exception of driving and flying - I don't believe in the carbon monster so I don't feel bad about that. That and as a resident of South Australia I'm forced to put up with the highest energy prices in the world because of this mad rush to renewables; if you're captive to the grid then you've got no choice but to compulsorily contribute to this policy rubbish. It kills jobs and chases away business - no wonder we have the highest unemployment here in SA at the moment.

And I get tired of being lectured to about the immanent end of the earth by people who drive 2+ ton 4WD's that really should have been taxed out of our cities years ago because of their unnecessarily big carbon footprints; that and the fact that they're plain dangerous around pedestrians and other motorists. Carbon dioxide isn't a poison anyway but if you believe in the dangers of anthropomorphic climate change then you need to examine every single aspect of your life and change your behaviour - it's excessive consumerism that's the problem in my opinion but you'll never get anyone in government to admit that.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Saudi Aramco, the world's highest value company (Please correct is wrong) and built solely on its Oil resources IPO has been over subscribed by 150% thus valuing the company at ~$2T. Note they only sold off around $25B of that $2T value.

Moral of the story, the world's investors are not yet ready to abandon Oil.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
I have four long haul international flights in the month starting day after tomorrow, with four more long haul internationals in the first quarter of next year and at least four domestic flights in the same period.

Am I worried? Nup, the aircraft will fly and have the same emissions with or without me.
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
I feel so much better for knowing that!
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Here's some footage going viral on YouTube at the moment of how they manage landfill in the Indian state of Cuddalore;



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5hxi2cqA8A

Yup, that's right, straight out to the Indian Ocean. And here we are being made to feel bad about single use straws and coffee cups.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
The heads of the Northern Territory's Power and Water Commission were sacked over the numerous blackouts that have affected Alice Springs in the last few months - ABC;

The NT Government said it was the third 'system black' affecting Alice Springs since January 2015, and the ninth incident since then resulting in power being disrupted to 5,000 or more customers for a period of more than 30 minutes.

"The independent inquiry into this found an unacceptable level of preparedness for this incident," Mr Gunner said.

"No work had been done essentially for when this occurred to know how to respond to it in terms of role-playing, having the right procedures in place, or knowing how do you respond to this when it happens.

Dishonest of the ABC and the NT Chief Minister to not mention the real reason why Alice Springs lost power - because of the failure of renewables and batteries. From News.com.au:

The outage was caused by a cloud [over a solar farm] ... The battery energy storage system went to full output before it tripped off. The output of Uterne [Alice Springs] solar station was relatively constant at around 3.3 MW until 1:43 PM. At 1:43 PM a cloud passed over the station and station output became highly variable with reductions in output to as low as 0.5 MW according to data provided by Uterne and TGen8.

Isn't it a great feeling saving the planet? Too bad about the intermittent electrical supply though.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The heads of the Northern Territory's Power and Water Commission were sacked over the numerous blackouts that have affected Alice Springs in the last few months - ABC;

The NT Government said it was the third 'system black' affecting Alice Springs since January 2015, and the ninth incident since then resulting in power being disrupted to 5,000 or more customers for a period of more than 30 minutes.

"The independent inquiry into this found an unacceptable level of preparedness for this incident," Mr Gunner said.

"No work had been done essentially for when this occurred to know how to respond to it in terms of role-playing, having the right procedures in place, or knowing how do you respond to this when it happens.

Dishonest of the ABC and the NT Chief Minister to not mention the real reason why Alice Springs lost power - because of the failure of renewables and batteries. From News.com.au:

The outage was caused by a cloud [over a solar farm] ... The battery energy storage system went to full output before it tripped off. The output of Uterne [Alice Springs] solar station was relatively constant at around 3.3 MW until 1:43 PM. At 1:43 PM a cloud passed over the station and station output became highly variable with reductions in output to as low as 0.5 MW according to data provided by Uterne and TGen8.

Isn't it a great feeling saving the planet? Too bad about the intermittent electrical supply though.
"don_dunstan"



As a fellow desert dweller, probably more so that Alice Springs, so I can say with some confidence that while rain is rare,  clouds are not so and hence surely this wasn't the first time a cloud cross the solar farm?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The heads of the Northern Territory's Power and Water Commission were sacked over the numerous blackouts that have affected Alice Springs in the last few months - ABC;

The NT Government said it was the third 'system black' affecting Alice Springs since January 2015, and the ninth incident since then resulting in power being disrupted to 5,000 or more customers for a period of more than 30 minutes.

"The independent inquiry into this found an unacceptable level of preparedness for this incident," Mr Gunner said.

"No work had been done essentially for when this occurred to know how to respond to it in terms of role-playing, having the right procedures in place, or knowing how do you respond to this when it happens.

Dishonest of the ABC and the NT Chief Minister to not mention the real reason why Alice Springs lost power - because of the failure of renewables and batteries. From News.com.au:

The outage was caused by a cloud [over a solar farm] ... The battery energy storage system went to full output before it tripped off. The output of Uterne [Alice Springs] solar station was relatively constant at around 3.3 MW until 1:43 PM. At 1:43 PM a cloud passed over the station and station output became highly variable with reductions in output to as low as 0.5 MW according to data provided by Uterne and TGen8.

Isn't it a great feeling saving the planet? Too bad about the intermittent electrical supply though.
don_dunstan



As a fellow desert dweller, probably more so that Alice Springs, so I can say with some confidence that while rain is rare,  clouds are not so and hence surely this wasn't the first time a cloud cross the solar farm?

Side note: I read I think it was last year that Pine Gap was switched from its own power station to the Alice Springs grid which was supposed to reduce the cost of running Pine Gap and generate revenue for Alice Springs Power Suppler and provide a larger base load to ensure more stable grid operation. So, I wonder if the dismissal of the minister was actually a complaint from Uncle Sam about the power going off.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
As a fellow desert dweller, probably more so that Alice Springs, so I can say with some confidence that while rain is rare,  clouds are not so and hence surely this wasn't the first time a cloud cross the solar farm?

Side note: I read I think it was last year that Pine Gap was switched from its own power station to the Alice Springs grid which was supposed to reduce the cost of running Pine Gap and generate revenue for Alice Springs Power Suppler and provide a larger base load to ensure more stable grid operation. So, I wonder if the dismissal of the minister was actually a complaint from Uncle Sam about the power going off.
RTT_Rules
There's also a lot more going on there than meets the eye - discussed in more detail in this RenewEconomy article.

The Northern Territory Power & Water Corporation is a wholly-government owned subsidiary but they've been allowed to impose direct taxes and penalties on any private competition setting up there, as well as telling them where and how much they're allowed to build. This has upset the global billionaire green investor club no end as you can well imagine.

As a consequence of being the sole solar arbiter in the NT they've also had the burden of having to construct and run these things themselves when they're incredibly expensive pieces of equipment. The NT Power & Water has been forced to take on a lot of debt and like everything else run by the NT government seems to have been too prone to political appointments and interference in planning.

You'd have to ask why older diesel generation wasn't maintained as a stand-by; apparently they didn't think it was a contingency worth planning for. Seems there was a battery but it overloaded and shut down apparently as the plant output dropping by 3 m/w in a matter of minutes.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Incidentally the only reason that the Andrew "Twiggy" Forrest and Mike Cannon-Brookes led proposal for a huge solar plant in the NT has any chance of approval is because its being set up entirely for export and not for domestic consumption, full-stop. The tax advantages of setting up infrastructure solely for the purpose of export also has a good pay-out too as Chevron, Santos and Shell can tell you from their venture into Australia's LNG markets.
  c3526blue Deputy Commissioner

Location: in the cuckoos nest
As a fellow desert dweller, probably more so that Alice Springs, so I can say with some confidence that while rain is rare,  clouds are not so and hence surely this wasn't the first time a cloud cross the solar farm?

Side note: I read I think it was last year that Pine Gap was switched from its own power station to the Alice Springs grid which was supposed to reduce the cost of running Pine Gap and generate revenue for Alice Springs Power Suppler and provide a larger base load to ensure more stable grid operation. So, I wonder if the dismissal of the minister was actually a complaint from Uncle Sam about the power going off.
There's also a lot more going on there than meets the eye - discussed in more detail in this RenewEconomy article.

The Northern Territory Power & Water Corporation is a wholly-government owned subsidiary but they've been allowed to impose direct taxes and penalties on any private competition setting up there, as well as telling them where and how much they're allowed to build. This has upset the global billionaire green investor club no end as you can well imagine.

As a consequence of being the sole solar arbiter in the NT they've also had the burden of having to construct and run these things themselves when they're incredibly expensive pieces of equipment. The NT Power & Water has been forced to take on a lot of debt and like everything else run by the NT government seems to have been too prone to political appointments and interference in planning.

You'd have to ask why older diesel generation wasn't maintained as a stand-by; apparently they didn't think it was a contingency worth planning for. Seems there was a battery but it overloaded and shut down apparently as the plant output dropping by 3 m/w in a matter of minutes.
don_dunstan
You would also have to ask if a cloud causes a system failure during the daytime what in hell happens at night.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
...

You'd have to ask why older diesel generation wasn't maintained as a stand-by; apparently they didn't think it was a contingency worth planning for. Seems there was a battery but it overloaded and shut down apparently as the plant output dropping by 3 m/w in a matter of minutes.
You would also have to ask if a cloud causes a system failure during the daytime what in hell happens at night.
c3526blue
I'm not an engineer but I'd hazard a guess and say its usually a slow change from the solar plant to the batteries as the sun goes down and vice versa as the sun comes up but for some reason a single very dark cloud front (thunderstorm?) suddenly passed over the area and overloaded the battery too very quickly - which is why it also tripped out.

Obviously there's more redundancy required than just a single solar plant with a battery for a town of 25,000.
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

Hi Don, a probing question, feel free to answer, comment or disregard as you see fit.
You've posted repeatedly that you do not believe in the carbon monster and conversely stated that you are one of the lowest carbon people you know.
Why?

Regards, Mick.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

It's quite remarkable that the world managed to agree in 1987 to stop producing harmful CFCs etc.  And it's actually mitigated much of the human caused global warming:

https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/science-tech/saving-ozone-layer-1987-slowed-global-warming

New research published in Environmental Research Letters has revealed that thanks to the Montreal Protocol, today’s global temperatures are considerably lower. And by mid-century the Earth will be – on average – at least 1°C cooler than it would have been without the agreement. Mitigation is even greater in regions such as the Arctic, where the avoided warming will be as much as 3°C – 4°C.

“Remarkably, the Protocol has had a far greater impact on global warming than the Kyoto Agreement, which was specifically designed to reduce greenhouse gases. Action taken as part of the Kyoto Agreement will only reduce temperatures by 0.12°C by the middle of the century – compared to a full 1°C of mitigation from the Montreal Protocol.”
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
It's quite remarkable that the world managed to agree in 1987 to stop producing harmful CFCs etc.  And it's actually mitigated much of the human caused global warming:

https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/science-tech/saving-ozone-layer-1987-slowed-global-warming

New research published in Environmental Research Letters has revealed that thanks to the Montreal Protocol, today’s global temperatures are considerably lower. And by mid-century the Earth will be – on average – at least 1°C cooler than it would have been without the agreement. Mitigation is even greater in regions such as the Arctic, where the avoided warming will be as much as 3°C – 4°C.

“Remarkably, the Protocol has had a far greater impact on global warming than the Kyoto Agreement, which was specifically designed to reduce greenhouse gases. Action taken as part of the Kyoto Agreement will only reduce temperatures by 0.12°C by the middle of the century – compared to a full 1°C of mitigation from the Montreal Protocol.”
Carnot
Unfortunately "they who shall not be named" have been jacking up CFC-11 production - they deny it of course but the emissions have been traced directly to their country - BBC.

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