Melbourne Airport Rail Link

 
  chomper Junior Train Controller

Other thoughts - would Geelong high speed involve 25kv AC on SG line (duplicated), all the way to Newport, then 1500V DC on dual gauge inside tunnel to City?
Carnot
You're talking too much sense here, it won't wash in Bureaucracy Land Very Happy

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  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
I can barely make head nor tail of that article.  So high speed Geetroit trains stuck behind Metro services?  Seriously?
Carnot
In a weird-a-bout way it sort of makes sense.

Express Geelong > Southern Cross services on an upgraded (and fully electrified) alignment probably Metro Trains rollingstock (how fast can the HCMT stock run at?). They would only run behind Sparks from Newport > SC and there would probably only be one station at Fisherman's Bend to contend with.

Stopping services via Sunshine for pax who want to change for the Airport and intermediate stations probably run with V/Line stock.

This would free up enough paths on the RRL (especially if RRL quadded as designed with Melton and Wyndham Vale sparks running onto the Sunbury line and though the MM1 tunnel) for a decent Airport rail service stopping Sunshine and possibly Footscrazy. It would require some creative timetabling for them to stop Sunshine but not Footscray although could be done behind Bendigo trains if they continued to not stop Sunshine or alternatively RRL might not stop Footscray anymore and all pax would change at Sunshine for Airport or Footscray / North Melbourne.

I think.......
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

I should add that one consequence is reduced capacity for SG freight.  It would need passing loops and OMR track from Manor to Beveridge at a minimum IMO.
  chomper Junior Train Controller

I should add that one consequence is reduced capacity for SG freight.  It would need passing loops and OMR track from Manor to Beveridge at a minimum IMO.
Carnot
Speaking of the OMR, has anything more come of it besides being in the Melway as a future freeway/rail combo?
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
I can barely make head nor tail of that article.  So high speed Geetroit trains stuck behind Metro services?  Seriously?
Carnot

Reading this today it raised more questions than it provided answers in my view.  What will the RRL be used for?  It states there would be geelong trains via Sunshine and it also states there would be geelong trains via Newport.  Newport services would enter the Metro 2 tunnel and then emerge at Clifton Hill?

Where would they go then?

The idea of using both paths means electrification on both routes which would be fine given Metro services would then use their own stock to WY.

A interesting read but many questions?
  tayser Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
From the article:

"Trains from Geelong would run along an upgraded section of track linking the Geelong and Werribee lines that is currently used for freight. New tracks would then be built from Werribee to Newport and link up with Melbourne Metro 2."


The barely used Werribee-West Werribee junction tracks would be used and then Werribee - Newport quadded.  Werribee trains as they are now stop all stations, Geelongs express Werribee - Newport.  Both metro and Geelongs then converge into the MM2 tunnel stop all stations to Southern Cross (and what is definitely not in the article is where Geelongs continue on to another short terminating station like Reservoir or Northcote or just terminate at Southern Cross [of which there'd have to be more than 2 underground platforms]).  Having all trains stop at Newport, Fishermans Bend 2, Fishermans Bend 1 (assuming two stations) then Southern Cross makes sense as western metro and Geelong would want/need access to Fishermans Bend and all the jobs that are planned to go there.

I presume Laverton via Altona and Williamstown continue via Newport-Spottswood-Yarraville-Seddon etc.

"The project - which would cost tens of billions of dollars - could be built in stages, with the Geelong line upgrades to Werribee built first. The ambitious Metro 2 city tunnel would be built many years from now, most likely in the 2030s."

This fits with the NDP leaked before last year's state election - MM2 is broken up into two phases (Newport-Parkville and Parkville-Merri)

Melton-Sunshine could get the same treatment that allows Ballarats to overtake (comfortably) Melton metro services and at West Werribee, the third side of the triangle is built and a 5th platform on the western side of Sunshine.  Electrify the RRL tracks from Sunshine to the City.

That would enable Mernda-Werribee to actually become Mernda-Sunshine via Werribee and Melton metros to run Melton all stations to Sunshine then follow the same stopping pattern as Vlines currently do into the city.

If Mernda / Werribee get 'HCMT'd' like Pakenham/Cranbourne-Sunbury as part of MM2, one for one train replacement boosts passenger carrying capacity (it's about 20% HCMT versus Comeng etc, no?) and if peak services move to 12 TPH for Mernda in 15-20 years (it's currently max 9TPH, average 8TPH in peaks), 6TPH could go Mernda-Sunshine (via MM2/Werribee) and 6TPH could go Mernda-Werribee (via MM2).  People in Tarneit/Wyndham Vale/Truganina/any new station and suburb that will get built along the RRL tracks would have a one-seat to the city choice via Werribee / MM2 (probably good value for Wyndham Vale, not so much others) or a good service to Sunshine where they can change to numerous express and stopper services to the city or to the airport / Sunbury/wherever anyone needs to go.

If Geelong goes to 4TPH off peak - split them with every second train via the fast route (Werribee) and the other via Sunshine (for airport connections).  Warrnambool will probably always go via Sunshine, plus if Geelong trains via MM2 continue past SX to at least Parkville, they've got about a ~20-21 minute trip from Parkville to the airport via MM1.  In peaks send all Geelongs via MM2 and people wanting to get to the airport can change at Werribee (and then Sunshine) or just stay on the train until Parkville.
  ngarner Chief Train Controller

Location: Seville
So the denial that MM2 was to be built is all of a sudden turned on its head and, potentially, is now part of higher speed plans for Geelong. Got to give it to Andrews et al, they like to keep things close to their chest(s) until it suits them i.e. SRL, EoI for new rolling stock & now this. I suppose it gives us all something to debate!

Neil
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

Surely it would make sense to short-route Geelong trains to say Clifton Hill at least, to get the most out of the tunnel.

edit: Unless Newport-Spencer St is 4 track and Spencer St - Clifton Hill is 2 track.
  Goose13 Station Master

Location: Having a sook about Southern cross's western wall
Or would you see Geelong trains using the existing Newport to southern cross path, once Werribee trains are using the tunnel?
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/tunnel-link-mulled-for-geelong-fast-trains
A possible leak from the MARL business case for “alternative options” Can’t see it happening. Half via Metro 2, Half via Sunshine. Will be a dog’s breakfast
Lockie91
This is DOT trying to match up what the Federal Liberals want to fund, which is regional services to west of Geelong to sure up Corangamite, with projects that they want to build, which is Metro II and the City Loop reconfigurations. Get the feds to fund the start of that tunnel, lump in Geelong improvements and bam, everyone wins politically but potentially not the best actual option for passengers.
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

That would enable Mernda-Werribee to actually become Mernda-Sunshine via Werribee and Melton metros to run Melton all stations to Sunshine then follow the same stopping pattern as Vlines currently do into the city.
tayser

Wouldn't Melton line trains use the Metro Tunnel? It makes more sense for them to use the Metro Tunnel and Airport line trains use RRL (if necessary) or just use the Metro Tunnel as well as per the Network Development Plan.
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

Or would you see Geelong trains using the existing Newport to southern cross path, once Werribee trains are using the tunnel?
Goose13
Geelong/Werribee via MM2

Williamstown/Lavertoon (or Point Cook South if extended) via Footscray
  tayser Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
That would enable Mernda-Werribee to actually become Mernda-Sunshine via Werribee and Melton metros to run Melton all stations to Sunshine then follow the same stopping pattern as Vlines currently do into the city.

Wouldn't Melton line trains use the Metro Tunnel? It makes more sense for them to use the Metro Tunnel and Airport line trains use RRL (if necessary) or just use the Metro Tunnel as well as per the Network Development Plan.
reubstar6
That's how it's been on all of the NDPs but if MARL is back on MM1, Geelong paths are rerouted elsewhere, you can balance things out between the two track pairs.

Apart from adding a fifth platform at Sunshine and grade separating the RRL side (so down Bendigos don't conflict with up Ballarat/Melton/Warrnambool), the major work is in Albion and Deer Park.




Peak Metro track side:

6 TPH Sunbury-Pakenham that SAS Sunbury-Sunshine then expresses between Sunshine and Footscray then into MM1 (and v.v.).
6 TPH Watergardens - Westall that SAS into MM1 (and v.v.).
6 TPH Airport - Cranbourne that runs Airport-Sunshine-Footscray-MM1 (and v.v.).
4-6 TPH West Footscray - Cranbourne/Pakenham (eastern side of MM1 will need more services, add as needed from West Footscray) SAS to MM1 (and v.v.).

Peak RRL track side:

2-4 TPH Bendigo
3-4 TPH Ballarat
1-2 TPH Warrnambool/Geelong
4-6 TPH Melton
4-6 TPH Wyndham Vale/Werribee * terminates at Sunshine (current platform 4)

In peak that's balanced: Metro pair: 18TPH Sunshine to City (increases from West Footscray to the city), RRL pair: 10-16 TPH from Sunshine to the city.

(all services on RRL side have same stopping pattern: Sunshine-Footscray-Southern Cross).

Off-peak / Weekends Metro track side:

4-6 TPH Sunbury-Pakenham SAS to MM1 (maybe some Watergardens origin/termination) SAS to MM1
4-6 TPH Airport-Cranbourne, express Sunshine-Footscray then SAS to MM1

Off-peak / weekends RRL track side:

1-2 TPH Bendigo
1-2 TPH Ballarat
0.5-1 TPH Warrnambool/Geelong
4 TPH Melton
4 TPH Wyndham Vale/Werribee * terminates at Sunshine (current platform 4)


$0.02
  justarider Assistant Commissioner

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.

Apart from adding a fifth platform at Sunshine and grade separating the RRL side (so down Bendigos don't conflict with up Ballarat/Melton/Warrnambool), the major work is in Albion and Deer Park.







$0.02
tayser
nice one @tayser, more than 2c, worth $2 at least.

You clearly illustrated that MARL via MM1 is very doable and that the fancy extra $5B tunnel is a crock.

Not gunna even touch the diversion comments about "we must have MM2..blah blah blah"

Only additional comments I can suggest are

  • The SG line is already in effect duplicated along the Albion freight line - one SG plus one DG plus a bunch of little/dis-used bits of track. ARTC doing the Inland rail work "should" continue that dual line thinking all the way up to Tottenham & Dynon. All freight for the NE line should pass to the north of Sunshine as you have indicated, removing all cross-overs with the Metro tracks.
  • SG Albury needs a Sunshine platform.
  • I would send the Melton Metro down MM1 also, taking up the slots you stated for West Footscray short stoppers. How that translates into cross-over is awkward but.

well done

John
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

That's a nice bit of work @tayser. What I do like is that it doesn't preclude a future additional pair on the up side of Sunshine, nor future WV quad. But it's achievable with actual good outcomes.

From that point of view you might as well do two additional platforms at Sunshine - rather than just one - as a future-proofing measure that, considering some heavy engineering will be required anyway, won't add too much to the cost base and will save some pain down the track.
  tayser Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne


  • I would send the Melton Metro down MM1 also, taking up the slots you stated for West Footscray short stoppers. How that translates into cross-over is awkward but.

well done

John
justarider

Yah - this was in the back of mind: keep Sunshine simple for the time being.

The other point about the airport branch junction on the up side of Albion: there's space here (corridor width) to eventually send those tracks underground (could the pit that takes Anderson Road eventually have 8 tracks crossing it?  Streetview is hard to determine if there's space for it - guessing 6 (well 5 with only one SG track) would be easier for the time being), likewise, might be a squeeze, but space to put tunnel dives between Kororoit Creek and Anderson road for the Deer Park corridor.

Idea being, the tunnel, if it's ever built in future, would have two underground platforms at Sunshine on the eastern side (using the car park plaza next to the SG tracks for surface access when they build) and have an underground junction on the down end.

Not on the map, but if I remember correctly, space for the two extra tracks beyond Caroline Springs (all the way up to Melton) is on the southern side, so the up Ballarat/fast track would need a flyover somewhere out there (ran out of smal in my not-very-to-scale-map!).
  tayser Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
And the other thing is the 3 level crossings left (that are on the list of 75) between Sunshine and Deer Park junction - I suspect that Fitzgerald Road (right next to the Western Ring Road) will remain and its current grade and the railway gets lowered, ditto at Mt Derrimut Road / Deer Park station. (which would probably warrant a station rebuild) and at Robinsons Road there's a possibility of a road bridge over (and the houses on the northside would be accessed by a service lane) or the corridor lowered there as well.  

If the railway's lowered then you could take advantage (possibly?) of the grade change on the western side and re-work flyovers/flyunders for the RRL tracks there as well.

I think a lot of the primary civil works for Deer Park might just be done as part of the LX removal through there whenever they do it.
  tayser Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Also x 2 (While its still fresh in my head) - between Footscray and Sunshine, what's going to happen at Middle Footscray when the platforms get lengthened for HCMT 2.0 (the 10 car version - whenever they're needed in future)?  I ask that because it's a 'bulge' island platform with not a lot of space at either end to extend for 10 car trains and might be worth rebuilding as part of MARL works if it goes down MM1 - even just rebuilt it straight away for 10 cars (220m) and straighten out the track so there can be a speed increase.

Sunshine-Footscray SAS journeys take 9 minutes at present, express journeys take 6 minutes.  Track speed is 80kph for the entire length (comparison: RRL track from the first curve out of Sunshine to West Footscray is 130kph and then 80kph to last curve into Footscray which is 70kph - the journey for that takes 5 minutes).

Boosting Sunshine - West Footscray metro track speed to 100kph would be beneficial for SAS and express services (probably shave 30 seconds or so off the express journey).

So for operational patterns, at Footscray toward Sunshine:

Trains to the south-east have the same stopping pattern: Express Anzac to Caulfield, stop all stations to Dandenong (or terminate at Westall) then stop all stations along the Pakenham or Cranbourne branch.

Trains to the north-west have 4 different patterns (the focus of this post):

A. From the south-east - Caulfield - ANZAC - Town Hall - State Library - Parkville - North Melbourne ("MM1 city stations") - Footscray - Middle Footscray - West Footscray - Tottenham - Sunshine - Albion - then all stations to Watergardens.

B. MM1 city stations - Footscray - *** - *** - *** - Sunshine - Albion - then all stations to Sunbury

C. MM1 city stations - Footscray - *** - *** - *** - Sunshine - Airport

D. MM1 city stations - Footscray - Middle Footscray - West Footscray.


5:30pm: C
5:32pm: B
5:34pm: A
5:36pm: D
5:40pm: C
5:42pm: B
5:44pm: A
5:46pm: D
5:50pm: C
5:52pm: B
5:54pm: A
5:56pm: D
and so on.


A pattern (SAS to Watergardens) is 6 minutes ahead of the first express in the 10 minute block and the D (SAS to terminate at West Footscray) is 4 minutes ahead of the first express in the 10 minute block.

When the C pattern departs Footscray, the A pattern is just near or at Tottenham and the D pattern has already pulled off the mainline into the terminating point at West Footscray.  By the time A pattern (SAS to Watergardens) departs Sunshine, the C pattern (Airport express) is around Tottenham.

In off-peak / weekend, trains toward Footscray-Sunshine should just be spaced 5 minutes apart (consistency throughout the city as far as Footscray).

From Sunshine toward the city:

8:00am: C
8:02am: B
8:04am: A
8:10am: C
8:12am: B
8:14am: A
8:20am: C
8:22am: B
8:24am: A

The 'slots' for West Footscray originating services would be depart West Footscray at the same time as C departs Sunshine (the A pattern would have just passed West Footscray and prob be at Middle Footscray by then).
  ngarner Chief Train Controller

Location: Seville
Sunshine-Footscray SAS journeys take 9 minutes at present, express journeys take 6 minutes.  Track speed is 80kph for the entire length (comparison: RRL track from the first curve out of Sunshine to West Footscray is 130kph and then 80kph to last curve into Footscray which is 70kph - the journey for that takes 5 minutes).

Boosting Sunshine - West Footscray metro track speed to 100kph would be beneficial for SAS and express services (probably shave 30 seconds or so off the express journey).
tayser
Track line speed is, or at least used to be and I don't know why it would have changed, based on signal distancing; obviously curves are a different matter. If HCMT's are used with HCS (High Capacity Signalling) the line speed could (should?) be increased reasonably easily. If HCMT are the only trains used on that line, or alternatively fit HCS to other trains that will use it, then there should be nothing to keep the speed limit where it is currently, except where essential like the curves.

Like your work on this, let's hope someone with power or influence sees it!

Neil
  chomper Junior Train Controller

The MARL in my opinion needs to be an end to end Metro line, the first of several new such lines. With proper interchanges with the existing spoke and hub rail network, it would be far more efficient than trying to cram even more trains onto an already overloaded system. This will require a radical departure from how the government sees heavy rail at the moment; the SRL might be one such sign of such a shift in thinking. The other departure would be on how such infrastructure is built and funded...
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: North Haverbrook; where the monorail is king!
Do as Dr Paul Mees taught: run MARL from Southern Cross platforms 15/16, through Dynon and then to Sunshine/Albion via the Bunbury St Tunnel. Spark the ARTC tracks.
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

As Daniel Bowen pointed out on his blog yesterday, this (Geelong via Newport/Metro 2) was all on the leaked network plan in 2018, so shouldn't be too much of a surprise.  Although that plan didn't include any SRL:

https://www.danielbowen.com/2019/12/24/geelong-via-metro2/
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
As Daniel Bowen pointed out on his blog yesterday, this (Geelong via Newport/Metro 2) was all on the leaked network plan in 2018, so shouldn't be too much of a surprise.  Although that plan didn't include any SRL:

https://www.danielbowen.com/2019/12/24/geelong-via-metro2/
Adogs
Agreed, I have heard about the traps that planning has already begun for the Metro 2 tunnel which given the above shouldn't come as a surprise.
  justarider Assistant Commissioner

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.





$0.02



We maybe calling it a giant gold plated waste of money we don’t need now, in 20 years time it will be the most essential pieces of transport infrastructure in Victoria. Allowing true metro services to the entirety of the Western Suburbs, Reliable Intercity services and an Airport service, all of which are segregated and independent. The later being why the government is not keen to
Lockie91
@Lockie could you edit the post to enlarge the font please.

As for the substance, yes there are multiple problems with achieving the ideas of @tayser, but it's a reasonable start which has been quite lacking in this thread.

Where you see "flyover" can also substitute "fly-under" or "tunnel" as a method.

I have no problem with "express" patterns where they truly improve the totality of the line's performance.
The choke point is Sunshine to Footscray, but it's only 3 intermediate stations.
Careful planning of patterns can achieve a lot, especially if you utilize the 3rd platform at West Footscray.

Just think like:  express Airport/Sunshine/Footscray/MM1 every 10 minutes 24/7. The rest fit around that.

To achieve good separation it would probably mean the preceding train (from somewhere else) is also express, and the following is SAS.
Yes I know that's simplistic, but starting with a clear end point often reveals surprising paths.

And yes more paths will be needed in due course. The MARL project is just getting the process started.

A simple solution to the current problem means the job is actually started, instead of endless planning for the future which never gets done. That's my 2nd biggest concern about the Sunshine/SCS tunnel - it will put the whole thing back another 5-10 years.

cheers
John
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

Wirh regards to Metro 2, if there is any way to quad the track and not make it a huge cost than it should be done. High speed Geelong services terminating at Southern Cross would be good.

Why don't you make MARL an end to end line terminating at South Yarra. Gives you a connection with every line on the network, Platform 5 and 6 will be free after Metro Tunnel is built. That or you run them down the Sandringham Line and terminate them at Windsor.

Pretty sure Windsor has some history of having a branch line there and has some remains of the platform there and sidings. That or you find some room to create a terminating track somewhere just past South Yarra and have them terminate at South Yarra and run back to the Airport

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