Locomotive 3001 to be restored to steam

 
  a6et Minister for Railways

.................. 'snotty nosed T at BX' .......... ????
Sorry but some of us only speak English?
Snotty nose, is a reference to Saturated locomotives as they very readily primed,  T is the old pre 1924 classification for 50cl.  Few enginemen would refer to loco's that were pre 1924 classes by other than those classes, T, TF K, 30cl were tankers, snotty nosed or supers, 32 P class 35's were more commonly just called Nannies, 36 pigs. The T, TF & K's were as a group referred Freighters.

Every depot in the state had short acronyms for them, was part and parcel of filling out loco log books and other areas BX is Bathurst, DBO = Dubbo, PKS = Parkes, OGE Orange, BMD, Broadmeadow, ENF= Enfield. PTW = Port Waratah GLB = Goulburn, PTK Port Kembla, and so on.  Old habits die hard.

Some on RP, need to learn English.
Some here on RP need to learn to write English too. Smile
  • We do not all live in NSW.
  • We were not in NSW in 1924
  • We were not all enginemen in NSW either before or after 1924
  • You go on to lecture us about the fairly obvious (even to me) 3-letter acronyms BMD - Broadmeadow, ENF - Enfield etc. I didn't recognise 'BX'as a 3-letter acronym! Rolling Eyes
YM-Mundrabilla
I am not lecturing at all, just providing information and an answer.  While most depots had the 3 letter Acronym, Bathurst did not, in every log book I saw on engines on the west BX was the shorty for Bathurst, just as BH, was the Acronym for Broken Hill.

Other aspect is that there are still Snotty Nosed steam engines that operate at Thirlmere museum so its not just for an older period.

I could have included all of Australia rather than just NSW though.

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  a6et Minister for Railways

Snotty nose, is a reference to Saturated locomotives as they very readily primed,  T is the old pre 1924 classification for 50cl.  Few enginemen would refer to loco's that were pre 1924 classes by other than those classes, T, TF K, 30cl were tankers, snotty nosed or supers, 32 P class 35's were more commonly just called Nannies, 36 pigs. The T, TF & K's were as a group referred Freighters.

Every depot in the state had short acronyms for them, was part and parcel of filling out loco log books and other areas BX is Bathurst, DBO = Dubbo, PKS = Parkes, OGE Orange, BMD, Broadmeadow, ENF= Enfield. PTW = Port Waratah GLB = Goulburn, PTK Port Kembla, and so on.  Old habits die hard.

Some on RP, need to learn English.
What you wrote is a little bit of English and a lot of jargon which could come only from the local knowledge of a particular clique, so I'd suggest you avoid coming the raw prawn when someone puts up a completely sensible question.
Valvegear
& I'm the only one here that uses Jargon, likewise its not just local knowledge of a particular clique at all.  I would suggest that you also are coming the raw prawn aspect in your response.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
I'm the only one here that uses Jargon, likewise its not just local knowledge of a particular clique at all.  I would suggest that you also are coming the raw prawn aspect in your response.
"a6et"
The standard primary schoolyard excuse;"Other people do it too." The fact that you're not the only one is irrelevant.
At school, I was taught that the purpose of language is to communicate - a thought for you ( and other writers of infantile jargon).
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
This is not the first time I have expressed my frustration on the use of jargon often only know to those who worked for the railways. Lately I have taken to ignoring those lazy posts, especially as the lazy posters have ignored my plea for normal everyday language.

(EDIT) some clowns on the aircraft facebook groups also use jargon to try and impress.
  lyntonh Station Staff

Snotty nose, is a reference to Saturated locomotives as they very readily primed,  T is the old pre 1924 classification for 50cl.  Few enginemen would refer to loco's that were pre 1924 classes by other than those classes, T, TF K, 30cl were tankers, snotty nosed or supers, 32 P class 35's were more commonly just called Nannies, 36 pigs. The T, TF & K's were as a group referred Freighters.

Every depot in the state had short acronyms for them, was part and parcel of filling out loco log books and other areas BX is Bathurst, DBO = Dubbo, PKS = Parkes, OGE Orange, BMD, Broadmeadow, ENF= Enfield. PTW = Port Waratah GLB = Goulburn, PTK Port Kembla, and so on.  Old habits die hard.

Some on RP, need to learn English.
What you wrote is a little bit of English and a lot of jargon which could come only from the local knowledge of a particular clique, so I'd suggest you avoid coming the raw prawn when someone puts up a completely sensible question.
& I'm the only one here that uses Jargon, likewise its not just local knowledge of a particular clique at all.  I would suggest that you also are coming the raw prawn aspect in your response.
a6et
Personally, I rather like the use of a bit of jargon.
It caused someone on here to say: 'What are you talking about', and then we got an explanation of several terms used in period, and learnt a bit more about how things were done in the day.
That's how cultural history is gathered and preserved.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I'm the only one here that uses Jargon, likewise its not just local knowledge of a particular clique at all.  I would suggest that you also are coming the raw prawn aspect in your response.
The standard primary schoolyard excuse;"Other people do it too." The fact that you're not the only one is irrelevant.
At school, I was taught that the purpose of language is to communicate - a thought for you ( and other writers of infantile jargon).
Valvegear
Depends upon what you are trying to 'communicate' - information understandable to the average reader or merely advertising one's special status and/or knowledge which will not be of any understandable use to the majority of readers.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
This is not the first time I have expressed my frustration on the use of jargon often only know to those who worked for the railways. Lately I have taken to ignoring those lazy posts, especially as the lazy posters have ignored my plea for normal everyday language.

(EDIT) some clowns on the aircraft facebook groups also use jargon to try and impress.
petan
Do any aircraft 'gunzels' speak anything but jargon and gibberish?
  a6et Minister for Railways

I'm the only one here that uses Jargon, likewise its not just local knowledge of a particular clique at all.  I would suggest that you also are coming the raw prawn aspect in your response.
The standard primary schoolyard excuse;"Other people do it too." The fact that you're not the only one is irrelevant.
At school, I was taught that the purpose of language is to communicate - a thought for you ( and other writers of infantile jargon).
Valvegear
I posted a reply to the aspect of 3609 being a static exhibit, on the basis of it being imho that it was a waste of a good engine if it was restored, I then used the point that there are 30T engines that could be used, as a static exhibit like the engine that is at Bathurst, which is a saturated type, and from the 50cl, its claim to fame that a long deceased Prime Minister drove this engine prior to him becoming Prime Minister.  I used two terms that were and are commonly used very much by ex railway employees in NSW, there was not intent to be smart or the like from my perspective.

When the person asked me what I was talking about I thought it was clear and concise, trying to explain in as simple and basic way possible, no different I guess to others in other states who would use similar language and terms for their loco's to which I have no idea about.

As I also said later Acrinyms are and were common in working areas, I quoted just a few in 3 letters but had to make the relevance to the Bathurst one, thing is that in the days of log books on loco's the drivers depot had to be shown, and the space did not provide for the full depots name, thus the norm became no more than 3 letters to identify where he worked from.  There was many depots that also had two letters only, & I have indicated 2 of them, one in my first reply and another in the last reply.

All this means to me is that if a bit of history is not understood is the best defence is to make the post worse than it actually is, I make one small comment about English and understanding of it, and you get on a high horse and chuck the state boundary aspect into it.  Wherever you live and in what state I have no idea, generally your posts are fine but, this time round I blowed if I know why you are so worked up about a post that contains facts and still are part of a language used by generally ex railway workers and others I know who are just starting out their railway careers and have an interest in the old descriptions that were part of the everyday working life.

So, for me its pointless trying to be part of discussions of this type as those who have far more qualifications know so much more than I do.

So sorry for any hurt from my information that you and others have suffered as a result. PS the post does have the element that it does relate to a NSW steam locomotive.
  a6et Minister for Railways

I'm the only one here that uses Jargon, likewise its not just local knowledge of a particular clique at all.  I would suggest that you also are coming the raw prawn aspect in your response.
The standard primary schoolyard excuse;"Other people do it too." The fact that you're not the only one is irrelevant.
At school, I was taught that the purpose of language is to communicate - a thought for you ( and other writers of infantile jargon).
Depends upon what you are trying to 'communicate' - information understandable to the average reader or merely advertising one's special status and/or knowledge which will not be of any understandable use to the majority of readers.
YM-Mundrabilla
That's a perfect mouthful of what is not understandable gibberish.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Thanks a6et for your courteous responses to my posts.
Now I know a little about the Bathurst and Broken Hill acronyms and saturated standard goods engines.
You are clearly one of the relative few who have 'been there and done that' and it was for this reason that I pursued clarification of your original post believing this to be worthwhile. There are many posts on here where I would not have bothered.
Keep smiling! Smile

PS: Were 'Brod' (Broadmeadow) and 'Fenn' (Enfield) used in the Loco Branch or were they purely 'Traffic' terms? Just thought that you might know?
  CPH8 Locomotive Fireman

In reference to the aviation industry (and getting off track of this thread) the reason for acronyms was time and space - time to communicate everything on radio when other people are wanting to do the same, and space to write down the large amount of information, whether it be on a flight plan or a flight strip at an airways operations unit. A lot of it goes back to the morse telegraph days, be it for shipping, railways or telegraph. The NSW railways like most others had a string of standard letter groups which meant standard information such as how many tarpaulins are at your depot; how many open wagons do you have; the toilets in a particular carriage aren't working, etc. etc.

Then there are the locations - ASDU was Dubbo because It was (a) located in Australia (b) in NSW and (c) its two letter designator DU showed that there was an airways operations unit located there - I worked in it for 16 years. Whereas Bathurst was BTH with a three letter abbreviation because there was no Airways Operations Unit located there but it was a flight plan location.

But if you use acronyms without explanation, then you could be subjected to the Q code symbol QBL - Are you flying in cloud? In other words, come down to earth, mate.

Therefore, perhaps if we could have the acronyms with a short explanation for those who are not familiar with the geography and terminology associated with the story being told. Otherwise you have pulled the air on us mere mortals who have not had the pleasure of wielding a banjo.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Thanks a6et for your courteous responses to my posts.
Now I know a little about the Bathurst and Broken Hill acronyms and saturated standard goods engines.
You are clearly one of the relative few who have 'been there and done that' and it was for this reason that I pursued clarification of your original post believing this to be worthwhile. There are many posts on here where I would not have bothered.
Keep smiling! Smile

PS: Were 'Brod' (Broadmeadow) and 'Fenn' (Enfield) used in the Loco Branch or were they purely 'Traffic' terms? Just thought that you might know?
YM-Mundrabilla
Thanks for your reply YM, appreciated very much. I may make mistakes but not intentional, and for me if I can help others to understand aspects of what it was like on the footplate for 26 odd years, starting on cleaning steam loco's and finished on the XPT, I am only too willing to answer where I can.

Those two terms are not locomotive/mechanical branch terms.  Its quite possible for Brod to apply to Broadmeadow but I have never seen it anywhere.

Some other 2 letter log book signings also these were found in barracks where we had to put the drivers name on the blackboard there, name and depot, alongside the room number. As they were also smallish lines, one would see such shortened acronyms there as well as in the log books.  PW, PK BH, WT, VH, MV are several that come to mind, have a look and see if you can work them out, will identify them for you in reply.
  a6et Minister for Railways

In reference to the aviation industry (and getting off track of this thread) the reason for acronyms was time and space - time to communicate everything on radio when other people are wanting to do the same, and space to write down the large amount of information, whether it be on a flight plan or a flight strip at an airways operations unit. A lot of it goes back to the morse telegraph days, be it for shipping, railways or telegraph. The NSW railways like most others had a string of standard letter groups which meant standard information such as how many tarpaulins are at your depot; how many open wagons do you have; the toilets in a particular carriage aren't working, etc. etc.

Then there are the locations - ASDU was Dubbo because It was (a) located in Australia (b) in NSW and (c) its two letter designator DU showed that there was an airways operations unit located there - I worked in it for 16 years. Whereas Bathurst was BTH with a three letter abbreviation because there was no Airways Operations Unit located there but it was a flight plan location.

But if you use acronyms without explanation, then you could be subjected to the Q code symbol QBL - Are you flying in cloud? In other words, come down to earth, mate.

Therefore, perhaps if we could have the acronyms with a short explanation for those who are not familiar with the geography and terminology associated with the story being told. Otherwise you have pulled the air on us mere mortals who have not had the pleasure of wielding a banjo.
CPH8
Many of the acronyms are not broad based, there is a word, Broad that for some with neat and small writing hand would log that as their depot, and that made sense, some even tried to tier the name Broadmeadow within the small box of the log book.  Each branch had their own acronyms for advising various events, happenings, warnings and many other areas that were relevant to their own branch but some were cross branch ones as well.

Things such as AMBA, is for traffic, mechanical. Signals, per way branches, and is a forecast list of trains that are scheduled within a set time frame, usually there are 3 per day, that made the Mechanical branch and the roster clerks provide the crews for those trains, likewise the Traffic branch would work with the engine and train controllers to provide the locomotives, guards and the projected loading for those trains, if no engines were available, or crew, guard or loading, the train would be Amexed to all relevant areas, and that included signal boxes, stations, depots and the like.  

It was interesting to me to sit in signal boxes one was Tumulla where down trains were all pretty much banked up the grade, at around 0900 each morning the West train control would provide a bell code for the departmental phone line and all signalmen/Station Masters between the relevant area, Lithgow - Orange would pick up the phone and listen in, pen in hand ready to take the program down on the train running book, after a brief pause all the staff would respond to the request that they were on line as the controller called out the box/stations in order, those in the locations answered by their locations name in order.

When all was set, the control officer read out the down and up trains for the afternoon night shift working, a D was written in for some trains that had double headers on them some had a D for Diesel, this was vital in early transition days as the staff had to be carried on the 2nd engine in a double, as that was the train engine, the front one was the assistant. A double diesel caused issues as there was only a crew on the front engine, in MU working and the signalman would only be ready to exchange the staff with the 2nd engine, it caused a general rule change that no matter what type of engine/s or train the staff was to be taken and held by the front engine.

When a train was Amexed, the signal box train book would put a big long tailed C around the amexed train with a meaning of Cancelled.

There were so many of those acronyms that it was funny, I remember some but thankfully so many have been lost in time for me.
  DCook Train Controller

Location: The standard state
PW, PK BH, WT, VH, MV are several that come to mind, have a look and see if you can work them out, will identify them for you in reply.
a6et
PK could be Parkes, BH would be Broken hill, PW would be Port Waratah, VH is definitely Valley Heights and MV could be Mount Victoria
  lyntonh Station Staff

PW, PK BH, WT, VH, MV are several that come to mind, have a look and see if you can work them out, will identify them for you in reply.
PK could be Parkes, BH would be Broken hill, PW would be Port Waratah, VH is definitely Valley Heights and MV could be Mount Victoria


West Tamworth.?
  a6et Minister for Railways

PW, PK BH, WT, VH, MV are several that come to mind, have a look and see if you can work them out, will identify them for you in reply.
PK could be Parkes, BH would be Broken hill, PW would be Port Waratah, VH is definitely Valley Heights and MV could be Mount Victoria


West Tamworth.?
lyntonh
PW = Port Waratah,  PK = Port Kembla, some used PTK most used PK, BH = Broken Hill, VH = Valley Heights, MV = Moss Vale, no depot at Mt Victoria, as Pax= passenger trains were worked by Eveleigh crews. WT= West Tamworth.

One other location was split a bit, HR, for Hawkesbury River, steam days it was part of Hornsby depot, once Electrified it was out depot of Gosford.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

In reference to the aviation industry (and getting off track of this thread) the reason for acronyms was time and space - time to communicate everything on radio when other people are wanting to do the same, and space to write down the large amount of information, whether it be on a flight plan or a flight strip at an airways operations unit. A lot of it goes back to the morse telegraph days, be it for shipping, railways or telegraph. The NSW railways like most others had a string of standard letter groups which meant standard information such as how many tarpaulins are at your depot; how many open wagons do you have; the toilets in a particular carriage aren't working, etc. etc.

Then there are the locations - ASDU was Dubbo because It was (a) located in Australia (b) in NSW and (c) its two letter designator DU showed that there was an airways operations unit located there - I worked in it for 16 years. Whereas Bathurst was BTH with a three letter abbreviation because there was no Airways Operations Unit located there but it was a flight plan location.

But if you use acronyms without explanation, then you could be subjected to the Q code symbol QBL - Are you flying in cloud? In other words, come down to earth, mate.

Therefore, perhaps if we could have the acronyms with a short explanation for those who are not familiar with the geography and terminology associated with the story being told. Otherwise you have pulled the air on us mere mortals who have not had the pleasure of wielding a banjo.
Many of the acronyms are not broad based, there is a word, Broad that for some with neat and small writing hand would log that as their depot, and that made sense, some even tried to tier the name Broadmeadow within the small box of the log book.  Each branch had their own acronyms for advising various events, happenings, warnings and many other areas that were relevant to their own branch but some were cross branch ones as well.

Things such as AMBA, is for traffic, mechanical. Signals, per way branches, and is a forecast list of trains that are scheduled within a set time frame, usually there are 3 per day, that made the Mechanical branch and the roster clerks provide the crews for those trains, likewise the Traffic branch would work with the engine and train controllers to provide the locomotives, guards and the projected loading for those trains, if no engines were available, or crew, guard or loading, the train would be Amexed to all relevant areas, and that included signal boxes, stations, depots and the like.  

It was interesting to me to sit in signal boxes one was Tumulla where down trains were all pretty much banked up the grade, at around 0900 each morning the West train control would provide a bell code for the departmental phone line and all signalmen/Station Masters between the relevant area, Lithgow - Orange would pick up the phone and listen in, pen in hand ready to take the program down on the train running book, after a brief pause all the staff would respond to the request that they were on line as the controller called out the box/stations in order, those in the locations answered by their locations name in order.

When all was set, the control officer read out the down and up trains for the afternoon night shift working, a D was written in for some trains that had double headers on them some had a D for Diesel, this was vital in early transition days as the staff had to be carried on the 2nd engine in a double, as that was the train engine, the front one was the assistant. A double diesel caused issues as there was only a crew on the front engine, in MU working and the signalman would only be ready to exchange the staff with the 2nd engine, it caused a general rule change that no matter what type of engine/s or train the staff was to be taken and held by the front engine.

When a train was Amexed, the signal box train book would put a big long tailed C around the amexed train with a meaning of Cancelled.

There were so many of those acronyms that it was funny, I remember some but thankfully so many have been lost in time for me.
a6et
Some are still used. WOLO and WEDA come to mind.
  a6et Minister for Railways

In reference to the aviation industry (and getting off track of this thread) the reason for acronyms was time and space - time to communicate everything on radio when other people are wanting to do the same, and space to write down the large amount of information, whether it be on a flight plan or a flight strip at an airways operations unit. A lot of it goes back to the morse telegraph days, be it for shipping, railways or telegraph. The NSW railways like most others had a string of standard letter groups which meant standard information such as how many tarpaulins are at your depot; how many open wagons do you have; the toilets in a particular carriage aren't working, etc. etc.

Then there are the locations - ASDU was Dubbo because It was (a) located in Australia (b) in NSW and (c) its two letter designator DU showed that there was an airways operations unit located there - I worked in it for 16 years. Whereas Bathurst was BTH with a three letter abbreviation because there was no Airways Operations Unit located there but it was a flight plan location.

But if you use acronyms without explanation, then you could be subjected to the Q code symbol QBL - Are you flying in cloud? In other words, come down to earth, mate.

Therefore, perhaps if we could have the acronyms with a short explanation for those who are not familiar with the geography and terminology associated with the story being told. Otherwise you have pulled the air on us mere mortals who have not had the pleasure of wielding a banjo.
Some are still used. WOLO and WEDA come to mind.
nswtrains
Never heard the term WEDA, what's it for?
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
WEDA - ............. To commence holidays from...........

Strictly speaking should be Weda as apparently only a NSWGR code rather than a Uniform (Australia wide) code. Uniform codes are all upper case whilst 'local' ones are uppers and lowers (as in false teeth Smile!!!)
  NSWGR 3827 Deputy Commissioner

Location: South of the Border
A boiler in daily service for 19 years obviously hasn't been through that many heating and cooling cycles.

Again you miss the point. Boiler water treatment is hardly ever going to be perfect. Yet you can have perfect water treatment and a boiler, particularly a firebox, will still deteriorate. Heritage locos naturally go through many heating and cooling cycles from sporadic operation. No amount of careful treatment and washouts preventIs the corrosive effects of fuels and combustion.

I've volunteered at a heritage railway with a boiler water treatment plant more advanced than a modern drinking water facility. They still have their own boiler shop, they still have to rebuild boilers every ten years or so and they will go on doing so as long as they continue operating conventional coal-fired steam.

What you seem to be implying is actually dangerous.
TheFish
OK Mr Fish, firstly a little background about me, Worked as a fulltime Fitter/Machinist for the last 17 years for 2 Heritage Rail Organizations one mainline, one tourist railway, Volunteered for 3 more in addition to those who I have been employed by.

Over those years I have seen the effects of incorrect/ineffective and No Feedwater treatment in both boilers in daily service and infrequent use, and in all cases If you get it right corrosion and scale disappears, this is no pie in the sky stuff it can and has been demonstrated many times in the past.  

With regards to the use of sophisticated plants I would argue that this is not necessary as there is an old saying that goes "it's not what your putting in the Boiler that matters, it's what's in it" and if there are still being rebuilt every 10 years said plant has been ineffective.

There used to be some good articles an Feedwater Treatment here https://5at.co.uk/index.php/modern-steam-2/principles-of-modern-steam/porta-s-water-treatment.html bottom of page but no longer working.

There is plenty more info out there for those willing to look for it and learn from it.

In ending I find your comment "
What you seem to be implying is actually dangerous." extremely offensive and insulting.


NSWGR3827
  DCook Train Controller

Location: The standard state
A question on the C30s/C30Ts, does anyone know what happened with 3102T and 3013 after the Canberra locomotive auction?
  hbedriver Chief Train Controller

I have not been a fitter/boilermaker, but have operated dozens of loco type boilers over more than 40 years. Have seen badly deteriorated boilers thanks to lack of treatment when certain crews “knew better than those silly engineers” and failed to use treatment. Have seen boilers in immaculate condition with 10 year old chalk markings on the water side. I am a huge fan now of using proper treatment and conducting regular analysis of the actual water in boilers.

I am convinced based on my observations that using good science and chemistry will see boilers lasting in tourist/heritage service for 50 years without major troubles before needing heavy repairs.

Conversely, if they don’t last that well, you aren’t treating them properly. Now there’s a way to save money, either you spend a little every time you use the boiler, or spend a fortune every few years. Your call, really!
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
A question on the C30s/C30Ts, does anyone know what happened with 3102T and 3013 after the Canberra locomotive auction?
DCook
Still on site. Suspect the new owners discovered the auction price was the least of their expenses...
  a6et Minister for Railways

A question on the C30s/C30Ts, does anyone know what happened with 3102T and 3013 after the Canberra locomotive auction?
DCook
http://australiansteam.com/3102T.htm
http://australiansteam.com/3013.htm

The aspect of private ownership makes the two likely to hang around but in what condition and where I have nil idea
  DCook Train Controller

Location: The standard state
From what I have seen looking at past articles it seems that 3013 was already under private ownership before the sale
It is stated on Wikipedia that it was the property of the CRM, the information I have found seems to contradict that. It seems that 3013 was at the LVR base at Cowra as the person who owned it had tasked the LVR with restoring it to operational condition, the LVR could not due to factors including keeping 3237 and 5917 operational and the closure of the Blayney to Harden line so in 2009 the dismantled remains of 3013 were sent to Canberra for a retry of an overhaul
It appears that 3013 may still be in that persons ownership

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