Australia Day Honours

 
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
My God, I really have slipped into an alternative universe - now I'm agreeing with Mr Peters...

Individual responsibility, people! Don't rely on the government to make your decisions for you.

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  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Don; you are hysterical; you crack me up without even trying.

...

Nobody can; your complete lack of logical thinking and your continual misquoting make it impossible.
Valvegear
No, you're another one of these socialist wet blankets who thinks the government should be responsible from saving people from their own bad decisions. You lust after a nanny state where people are rescued from their own neurosis.

I'm of the opposite view, I think that people should make their own decisions and if it's to eat yourself into a wheelchair with your legs amputated then that's your decision.

Every time you stuff that delicious piece of rubbish into your mouth you are making a decision about your own health and your own future whether you like it or not. As Mr. Peters said (above) if you shove a cigarette into your mouth you are also taking responsibility for your own health. Hell, if you stick a needle full of smack into your arm you are also making the decision for yourself about what you're doing with your own life.

I recently read Portia de Rossi's book about her struggle with bulimia and anorexia ("Unbearable Lightness") and even she had the courage to acknowledge that she was doing it to herself and that nobody else was responsible. What part of individual responsibility don't people understand? We live in a free society where each one of us is treated like an adult capable of making our own decisions - some of us make really bad decisions. Should they be rescued by the government? NO! Let people suffer the consequences of their own decisions - that's what life is all about.

Every single day you make decisions about who you are and what sort of life you want to lead and you cannot and should not expect the government to intervene and save you from your own rubbish decisions. It's ridiculous and frankly I don't want to be treated like a child - I want to be treated like an adult.

Bugger off, socialist do-gooders.
  M636C Minister for Railways

Has upping the price of ciggies done anything well yes it has it just makes the poorer person who smokes a bit poorer and that is about it. In other words it put a few off but not many, same as putting those awful photos on ciggie packets does it stop them buying ciggies and again in most cases the answer is no. So just what will a sugar tax do probably bugga all if they want to drink a fizzy drink laden with sugar then let them all they have to do is stop drinking it. It used to be called will power something that today is sadly lacking.

At least part of the problem is that the high fat high sugar foods and drinks are relatively cheap and the problems of obesity and type 2 diabetes are significantly higher in poorer areas...

If, say, Coke No Sugar was half the price of regular Coke for example, given that the product is much the same, it would be more popular in poorer areas where every cent counts. No need to retrain the people concerned and there would be a significant improvement in hospital admissions.

The lack of advertising and restrictions on display of cigarettes has reduced the rate of smoking and the hospital system is better off as a result. The higher price has probably caused the poorer users to cut down their consumption.

It's all good...

To revert to the thread title, I was on last year's honours list, somewhere below the weeds. It was better than being ignored completely...

Peter
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
The lack of advertising and restrictions on display of cigarettes has reduced the rate of smoking and the hospital system is better off as a result. The higher price has probably caused the poorer users to cut down their consumption.
M636C
Nah they just pay the extra (yet another tax on the poor) or they get 'chop chop'.

When I was working in Sunshine VIC some years ago all my clients were telling me about the "fake bakery" on Harvester Road that wasn't really a bakery - it sold chop chop tobacco and nothing else. But you had to know the code before you walked in there and asked for your chop chop - about a quarter of the price of legal cigarettes and every bit as good I was told.

So cigarettes (several years ago) were well on the way to becoming the new marijuana or heroin - taxed to buggery so that the 'mafia' had some pretty significant incentives to sell the un-taxed illegal stuff right there in a shop-front in Sunshine only metres from the cop shop. The VIC state government responded by trying to tell people that chop chop cigarettes had deadly chemicals in them and that they were extra cancerous - but did the people buying them care? No - they were really cheap and in demand. I'd wager chop chop is worse than ever.

I also noticed that people with chronic mental illness used to smoke more than others, maybe because nicotine helps them to mange their illness. That's why I'm against banning smoking in prisons and mental health facilities - why not let those people smoke, it's their way of managing their problems and frankly it seems to calm them down. Who are we to tell them not to do it?

Banning or taxing stuff to death doesn't work despite what the do-gooders say. You might think you have a moral victory over bad health habits but all you're doing is creating an illegal marketplace with substantial incentives to cheat the system. Human nature - you've made a market for it and people are going to exploit that weakness.
  M636C Minister for Railways

Nah they just pay the extra (yet another tax on the poor) or they get 'chop chop'.

When I was working in Sunshine VIC some years ago all my clients were telling me about the "fake bakery" on Harvester Road that wasn't really a bakery - it sold chop chop tobacco and nothing else. But you had to know the code before you walked in there and asked for your chop chop - about a quarter of the price of legal cigarettes and every bit as good I was told.


While the official statistics only reflect legal sales, I believe there has been a significant reduction in smoking, if only because of the large number of places where smoking isn't permitted.

I visited Sunshine recently myself. I was amazed. I don't think I have ever seen a failed suburban shopping area before. There was a food court without any food shops. A few unhappy looking people were wandering around.... The only shop of any kind was a Dimmey's (a low price retailer mainly of clothes) which was having a genuine closing down sale. I previously thought Kwinana (WA) was pretty bad but it looked like Bourke Street Mall by comparison.

I really don't believe that illegal tobacco shops can sell the volume of tobacco that I recall being sold and advertised everywhere when I was a kid. If you have to know the password, the stranger won't be able to buy anything.

Peter
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
No, you're another one of these socialist wet blankets who thinks the government should be responsible from saving people from their own bad decisions. You lust after a nanny state where people are rescued from their own neurosis.

I'm of the opposite view, I think that people should make their own decisions and if it's to eat yourself into a wheelchair with your legs amputated then that's your decision.

Every time you stuff that delicious piece of rubbish into your mouth you are making a decision about your own health and your own future whether you like it or not. As Mr. Peters said (above) if you shove a cigarette into your mouth you are also taking responsibility for your own health. Hell, if you stick a needle full of smack into your arm you are also making the decision for yourself about what you're doing with your own life.

I recently read Portia de Rossi's book about her struggle with bulimia and anorexia ("Unbearable Lightness") and even she had the courage to acknowledge that she was doing it to herself and that nobody else was responsible. What part of individual responsibility don't people understand? We live in a free society where each one of us is treated like an adult capable of making our own decisions - some of us make really bad decisions. Should they be rescued by the government? NO! Let people suffer the consequences of their own decisions - that's what life is all about.

Every single day you make decisions about who you are and what sort of life you want to lead and you cannot and should not expect the government to intervene and save you from your own rubbish decisions. It's ridiculous and frankly I don't want to be treated like a child - I want to be treated like an adult.

Bugger off, socialist do-gooders.
"don_dunstan"


Every word of that diatribe has no relevance to me whatsoever. You cannot quote any words from me supporting a sugar tax, because there aren't any. Not once did I mention it either pro or con.
But this doesn't stop you from telling the big lie and repeating it - fabricating evidence to suit yourself. It's the old principle of telling the lie often enough and people might believe it.
That's why I call you out - because of the dishonesty of your posts.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Every word of that diatribe has no relevance to me whatsoever. You cannot quote any words from me supporting a sugar tax, because there aren't any. Not once did I mention it either pro or con.
But this doesn't stop you from telling the big lie and repeating it - fabricating evidence to suit yourself. It's the old principle of telling the lie often enough and people might believe it.
That's why I call you out - because of the dishonesty of your posts.
Valvegear
You have delusions of grandeur - that post was in no way connected to what we started talking about and yet here you are trying to swing it back to you as if your childish sooking about my original post still has relevance. Get with the program.

Viz: Do you disagree with my fundamental premise that we're all adults and we have to suffer the consequences of our own bad decisions OR do you think we should live in a nanny state - that's where the conversation was at.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

Has upping the price of ciggies done anything well yes it has it just makes the poorer person who smokes a bit poorer and that is about it. In other words it put a few off but not many, same as putting those awful photos on ciggie packets does it stop them buying ciggies and again in most cases the answer is no. So just what will a sugar tax do probably bugga all if they want to drink a fizzy drink laden with sugar then let them all they have to do is stop drinking it. It used to be called will power something that today is sadly lacking.

Also in the USA during prohibition what did it do, nothing actually more alcoholic drinks were consumed during prohibition than before or after it so banning something is also not the answer. Like some one pointed out get up and get some exercise like they used to do in years past ride a bike to the local shops instead of driving your car, walk to places again rather than take your car if it is at all possible. Then you get rid of what builds up in your body and you save a fortune on gym memberships as well.

You do not have to look like Arnie Schwarzenegger though just to say you look fit, that is only a ill conceived idea, you can be perfectly healthy and fit without going that far.

So walk more, jog if you can, do more active type work at home, use your brains a lot more as well and you to might not end up either obese or suffering from Diabetes. It is not a magic spell though you could still come a cropper of something that could really throw you around a bit though.

I used to ride a pushie and still do at times, but I walk to the local shopping centre now about a kilometre or more away and walk back, sure you get sore doing it but that is what exercise is about, sitting on your bum all day is not exercise though.
DJPeters
Rubbish. The rate of smoking dropped considerably since the price has risen. Frankly. I would ban the filthy things due to the effects of sidestream smoking on non smokers. I don't care if the poor are suffering. It is easy to stop the suffering by quitting smoking. Those that oppose the tax are just libertarians who think people should do what they like no matter the consequences on all members of the public..
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Nah they just pay the extra (yet another tax on the poor) or they get 'chop chop'.

When I was working in Sunshine VIC some years ago all my clients were telling me about the "fake bakery" on Harvester Road that wasn't really a bakery - it sold chop chop tobacco and nothing else. But you had to know the code before you walked in there and asked for your chop chop - about a quarter of the price of legal cigarettes and every bit as good I was told.


While the official statistics only reflect legal sales, I believe there has been a significant reduction in smoking, if only because of the large number of places where smoking isn't permitted.
M636C
The illegal market in chop chop has hardly any research done on it because the governments (state and federal) don't want to acknowledge that its going on. But it was thriving when I worked out of an office there, I used to meet people all the time who said 'why would you buy legal cigarettes when the alternative is so cheap'. There's a Fairfax article about the prevalence of chop chop in Sydney and Melbourne from a few years ago which points out that it was becoming more lucrative than marijuana, crystal meth or cocaine which is why organised crime was getting in on it but I can't find any estimates of just how big this tax avoidance is costing the government:

In Bendigo, a pub opens its doors between 1-3pm for customers wanting a "box of blue", while in Melton, west of Melbourne, a shopkeeper spruiks discount coupons on the street.

The price of tobacco has surged by 343 per cent since 1996, with the steepest rise since 2013 when the Rudd-Gillard governments announced an annual increase of 12.5 per cent in tobacco taxes, plunging Australian tobacco consumption to its lowest level in history...

...A spokesman for the Australian Tax Office said the ATO was working with the Department of Immigration and Border Protection on developing a final estimate of tax losses.

"The illicit tobacco tax gap will be released when we are satisfied we have an estimate that is both credible and reliable," he said.

So they really have no idea how large the problem is and its probably a very large proportion of tobacco being consumed in Australia now - because the incentives are there. That's all you need.
I visited Sunshine recently myself. I was amazed. I don't think I have ever seen a failed suburban shopping area before. There was a food court without any food shops. A few unhappy looking people were wandering around.... The only shop of any kind was a Dimmey's (a low price retailer mainly of clothes) which was having a genuine closing down sale. I previously thought Kwinana (WA) was pretty bad but it looked like Bourke Street Mall by comparison. I really don't believe that illegal tobacco shops can sell the volume of tobacco that I recall being sold and advertised everywhere when I was a kid. If you have to know the password, the stranger won't be able to buy anything. Peter
M636C
Haven't been to Sunshine for a while but agreed it was looking very down-at-the-heel the last time I was there. And yet its becoming one of the most expensive suburbs in Melbourne just because of the proximity to the city and the fact that its now a major railway interchange station.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
You have delusions of grandeur - that post was in no way connected to what we started talking about and yet here you are trying to swing it back to you as if your childish sooking about my original post still has relevance. Get with the program.
don_dunstan
I'll try again one more time. Try to read and understand.

My starting point was that the doctor did not have a polical agenda- nothing else.
I never mentioned the sugar tax.
You attacked me for my alleged views on a sugar tax despite the fact that I never said one word about it.
You are not a mind reader and do not know my views.
Despite being told this, you continued, and still do.
Even after being challenged, you still cannot quote one word I wrote for or against a tax.
Every word you have written arguing about the tax may be your view but it has no relevance to me.

You lied about me - simple as that.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
You have delusions of grandeur - that post was in no way connected to what we started talking about and yet here you are trying to swing it back to you as if your childish sooking about my original post still has relevance. Get with the program.
I'll try again one more time. Try to read and understand.

My starting point was that the doctor did not have a polical agenda- nothing else.
I never mentioned the sugar tax.
You attacked me for my alleged views on a sugar tax despite the fact that I never said one word about it.
You are not a mind reader and do not know my views.
Despite being told this, you continued, and still do.
Even after being challenged, you still cannot quote one word I wrote for or against a tax.
Every word you have written arguing about the tax may be your view but it has no relevance to me.

You lied about me - simple as that.
Valvegear
See a shrink.
  lsrailfan Chief Commissioner

Location: Somewhere you're not
It's always hilarious watching you 2 argue over complete nothing!!
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
keerryst Amanda Vanstone ffs! Couldn't they find some poor overworked undepaid sod that looks after disabled kids or something as equally tough.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

It's always hilarious watching you 2 argue over complete nothing!!
lsrailfan
I find that the entertainment value is only increased if you read it under the assumption that it's a kinky form of foreplay.
  C2 Junior Train Controller

Twenty Nine Billion Dollars going towards making slurry , slag and coke to switch on the a/c   and  tv. Five  hundred thousand to look after one person in our Gwantanamo bay for refugees. One hundred thousand  a year on  a prisoner but if I want 50 bucks a  week extra because everything is going up I cop a beating. Your a most violent Man who says ignore all laws just as  long as the LNP are doing your dirty work.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
It's always hilarious watching you 2 argue over complete nothing!!
lsrailfan
I offend almost everyone here - water off a duck's back.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
See a shrink.
don_dunstan
It wouldn't help - there's no shrink anywhere who could unravel your thought processes.Laughing
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
C2, give the phone back to your mum...
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Has upping the price of ciggies done anything well yes it has it just makes the poorer person who smokes a bit poorer and that is about it. In other words it put a few off but not many, same as putting those awful photos on ciggie packets does it stop them buying ciggies and again in most cases the answer is no. So just what will a sugar tax do probably bugga all if they want to drink a fizzy drink laden with sugar then let them all they have to do is stop drinking it. It used to be called will power something that today is sadly lacking.

Also in the USA during prohibition what did it do, nothing actually more alcoholic drinks were consumed during prohibition than before or after it so banning something is also not the answer. Like some one pointed out get up and get some exercise like they used to do in years past ride a bike to the local shops instead of driving your car, walk to places again rather than take your car if it is at all possible. Then you get rid of what builds up in your body and you save a fortune on gym memberships as well.

You do not have to look like Arnie Schwarzenegger though just to say you look fit, that is only a ill conceived idea, you can be perfectly healthy and fit without going that far.

So walk more, jog if you can, do more active type work at home, use your brains a lot more as well and you to might not end up either obese or suffering from Diabetes. It is not a magic spell though you could still come a cropper of something that could really throw you around a bit though.

I used to ride a pushie and still do at times, but I walk to the local shopping centre now about a kilometre or more away and walk back, sure you get sore doing it but that is what exercise is about, sitting on your bum all day is not exercise though.
DJPeters
Smokers have dropped from 21% of adults in 2004 to 13% in 2018, cost and images would be playing their part in the ongoing reduction. 80% of Teenagers have never smoked so it will take some time for the smokers to literally "die out" as many like my parents will never give up.

Is it a tax on the working class, YEP! Do I feel bad about it, Nope! Its a choice and unlike alcohol its not even a social thing anymore. However one thing is for sure smokers have a larger impact on the medical system than non-smokers and I can see this in my parents who now in their 70's are showing the signs of a lifetime of smoking. A friend died a few years back, aged 82, spent over 15 years with ongoing Dr's visits due to a lifetime of smoking but gave it up on getting hospitalised with emphysema, the first time. Dr told him straight, "you stick another fag in your mouth I'm discharging you now on a O2 bottle so you go home a die and not waste any more taxpayers money."

So is the tobacco tax fair, regardless of the socio-economic background, yes! Personally I think it should be banned to all but existing registered smokers, with no new registrations issued after 6mth.

Back to Sugar, unfortunately we are now seeing the same issues and impacts on the population of too much sugar in food. Some references to a standard coffee from Star bucks containing more calories than breakfast or something like that. Yes there are other social impacts as work is more office based and gone is the 1/4 acre block etc, but Sugar is known to be the major driving cause especially in kids which then affects their adult life. So tax the stuff and start regulating sugar content to protect people from themselves.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Has upping the price of ciggies done anything well yes it has it just makes the poorer person who smokes a bit poorer and that is about it. In other words it put a few off but not many, same as putting those awful photos on ciggie packets does it stop them buying ciggies and again in most cases the answer is no. So just what will a sugar tax do probably bugga all if they want to drink a fizzy drink laden with sugar then let them all they have to do is stop drinking it. It used to be called will power something that today is sadly lacking.

Also in the USA during prohibition what did it do, nothing actually more alcoholic drinks were consumed during prohibition than before or after it so banning something is also not the answer. Like some one pointed out get up and get some exercise like they used to do in years past ride a bike to the local shops instead of driving your car, walk to places again rather than take your car if it is at all possible. Then you get rid of what builds up in your body and you save a fortune on gym memberships as well.

You do not have to look like Arnie Schwarzenegger though just to say you look fit, that is only a ill conceived idea, you can be perfectly healthy and fit without going that far.

So walk more, jog if you can, do more active type work at home, use your brains a lot more as well and you to might not end up either obese or suffering from Diabetes. It is not a magic spell though you could still come a cropper of something that could really throw you around a bit though.

I used to ride a pushie and still do at times, but I walk to the local shopping centre now about a kilometre or more away and walk back, sure you get sore doing it but that is what exercise is about, sitting on your bum all day is not exercise though.
DJPeters
Smokers have dropped from 21% of adults in 2004 to 13% in 2018, cost and images would be playing their part in the ongoing reduction. 80% of Teenagers have never smoked so it will take some time for the smokers to literally "die out" as many like my parents will never give up.

Is it a tax on the working class, YEP! Do I feel bad about it, Nope! Its a choice and unlike alcohol its not even a social thing anymore. However one thing is for sure smokers have a larger impact on the medical system than non-smokers and I can see this in my parents who now in their 70's are showing the signs of a lifetime of smoking. A friend died a few years back, aged 82, spent over 15 years with ongoing Dr's visits due to a lifetime of smoking but gave it up on getting hospitalised with emphysema, the first time. Dr told him straight, "you stick another fag in your mouth I'm discharging you now on a O2 bottle so you go home a die and not waste any more taxpayers money."

So is the tobacco tax fair, regardless of the socio-economic background, yes! Personally I think it should be banned to all but existing registered smokers, with no new registrations issued after 6mth.

Back to Sugar, unfortunately we are now seeing the same issues and impacts on the population of too much sugar in food. Some references to a standard coffee from Star bucks containing more calories than breakfast or something like that. Yes there are other social impacts as work is more office based and gone is the 1/4 acre block etc, but Sugar is known to be the major driving cause especially in kids which then affects their adult life. So tax the stuff and start regulating sugar content to protect people from themselves.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Twenty Nine Billion Dollars going towards making slurry , slag and coke to switch on the a/c   and  tv.

C2
How?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
It's always hilarious watching you 2 argue over complete nothing!!
I offend almost everyone here - water off a duck's back.
don_dunstan
I'm offended they are offended from your offending.
  62440 Chief Commissioner

All getting off-topic and boring. I looked in to see which railway related awards had been made.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
All getting off-topic and boring. I looked in to see which railway related awards had been made.
"62440"
If there were any in Victoria they would have to go to volunteers. Nobody in PTV/Metro/V Line would be worth even the Order of the Radioactive Lollipop.
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
All getting off-topic and boring. I looked in to see which railway related awards had been made.
If there were any in Victoria they would have to go to volunteers. Nobody in PTV/Metro/V Line would be worth even the Order of the Radioactive Lollipop.
Valvegear
While agreeing in principle regarding senior managers, I sometimes  wonder if there are quite a few in the various state transport offices who are trying to improve the place. Unfortunately they are stuffed by higher managers who block them and instead look for things that look good to the media but are totally useless as far as improving things. Although that is true in most establishments.

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