Geelong trains could again run via Newport under fast rail

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 05 Mar 2020 16:26
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
I can see the sense in this as the route via Newport is a lot shorter than the route via RRL which is problematic in itself.  If the decision was made to run Geelong trains via Newport I wouold not run these into Footscray, rather I would have then enter MM2 (Metro Tunnel 2) and into the SCS area under the Yarra.

Those for Geelong could catch connecting services to West Werribee which was not built but a part of the RRL programme.  (The Coalition decided not to do it).

Alternatively a customer could change at Newport assuming this could be accommodated.

For airport line (Tullamarine) I can see scope for a dedicated train service between Geelong and Tullamarine either with a connector at Sunshine or near Sunshine or via Newport to Sunshine (on existing good tracks upgraded).

Thoughts about using Newport path again?

Geelong trains could again run via Newport under fast rail

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  Duncs Chief Commissioner

I can see the sense in this as the route via Newport is a lot shorter than the route via RRL which is problematic in itself.  If the decision was made to run Geelong trains via Newport I wouold not run these into Footscray, rather I would have then enter MM2 (Metro Tunnel 2) and into the SCS area under the Yarra.

Those for Geelong could catch connecting services to West Werribee which was not built but a part of the RRL programme.  (The Coalition decided not to do it).

Alternatively a customer could change at Newport assuming this could be accommodated.

For airport line (Tullamarine) I can see scope for a dedicated train service between Geelong and Tullamarine either with a connector at Sunshine or near Sunshine or via Newport to Sunshine (on existing good tracks upgraded).

Thoughts about using Newport path again?

Geelong trains could again run via Newport under fast rail
bevans

Back at around 2003 I took a dedicated V Line service to and from Geelong. So SCS express to Geelong, no other stops. With a West Coast Rail express back to SCS. Both went via Newport (this was pre RFR and RRL) and I got there both ways in only 55 minutes. So a 40 minute express to and from Geelong, with limited stops at: Footscray, Newport, Werribee, North Geelong, and then Geelong, is quite feasible.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
  LegendsofSteam Junior Train Controller

Ideally W’bool Services should be running express Footsgrey to Geelong via Newport / Werribee, this would cut at least 20Mins from W’bool Services alone...
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Ideally W’bool Services should be running express Footsgrey to Geelong via Newport / Werribee, this would cut at least 20Mins from W’bool Services alone...
LegendsofSteam

This really should be the change they make now.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
When are we going to get over this crazy obsession with fast rail to Geelong, and start concerning ourselves with distances where fast rail would make a useful contribution?
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Perhaps Geelong should be called Faster Rail?
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Ideally W’bool Services should be running express Footsgrey to Geelong via Newport / Werribee, this would cut at least 20Mins from W’bool Services alone...
LegendsofSteam

Running express from Geelong to SCS via Newport OR via Deer Park is only a saving of about 5 minutes in running times.

Remember, although its around 8 Km longer via Deer park, the Warrnambool train can maintain a speed of 115Km/h all the way to West Footscray, whereas via Newport, the train has to slow down to around 80Km/h from Altona Jn., then even slower beyond Newport.

Mike.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Ideally W’bool Services should be running express Footsgrey to Geelong via Newport / Werribee, this would cut at least 20Mins from W’bool Services alone...

This really should be the change they make now.
bevans
There were some Daryl Kerrigan vibes around that as all the loco hauled Warrnambools run at off peak times VLP sought to have all Up & Down Wmbs run via Wbee with Footscray & Werribee stops on a 55 min schedule. But Metro were dead opposed to the idea, and who would blame them given VLP apalling timekeeping record on Wmb line even allowing for schedules padded with recovery time, and then still be OT provided they arrive within 11 mins of an already well padded schedule.

At the time however Metro did agree that subject to how Metro were running on a case by case basis the Geelong/Warrnambools could run via Werribee primarily at Off Peak, Weekends and evenings in cases where there was severe disruption on the RRL tracks affecting Geelong trains.  This most recently occurred a few weeks ago whereby on a Weekday both the 1530 Dn Waurn ponds & 1550 Dn South Geelong were routed via Werribee.
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

Perhaps Geelong should be called Faster Rail?
bevans
How about not calling it anything that isn't an internationally defined term, and simply state clearly (using real numbers, e.g. 180km/h) what is proposed?

For the record:
Fast rail (or fast train) is not an internationally defined term
Very fast rail (or very fast train) is not an internationally defined term
Medium speed rail (or medium speed train) is not an internationally defined term

These undefined terms are best described as weasel words, because they can mean whatever the speaker wants them to mean and give politicians the opportunity to weasel out of their commitments.

PTV is an Affiliate Member of the UIC (International Union of Railways) which uses the following definitions:
Category I High Speed Rail, purpose built routes with cruising speeds >250km/h
Category II High Speed Rail, conventional lines upgraded to allow cruising speeds >200km/h
Category III High Speed Rail, routes that would otherwise meet the Category I/II definitions but with short sections of lower speed running through mountains or cities etc
  DalyWaters Chief Commissioner

Ideally W’bool Services should be running express Footsgrey to Geelong via Newport / Werribee, this would cut at least 20Mins from W’bool Services alone...

Running express from Geelong to SCS via Newport OR via Deer Park is only a saving of about 5 minutes in running times.

Remember, although its around 8 Km longer via Deer park, the Warrnambool train can maintain a speed of 115Km/h all the way to West Footscray, whereas via Newport, the train has to slow down to around 80Km/h from Altona Jn., then even slower beyond Newport.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Loco hauled train:
Ardeer to Sunshine Junction 100 kmh
Sunshine Junction 40 lmh
Sunshine to West Footscray 100 kmh
West Footscray to Spion Kop 65 kmh
Spion Kop to Flyover 30 kmh
Flyover to platforms 25 kmh
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Mister Fact Checker
Ideally W’bool Services should be running express Footsgrey to Geelong via Newport / Werribee, this would cut at least 20Mins from W’bool Services alone...

Running express from Geelong to SCS via Newport OR via Deer Park is only a saving of about 5 minutes in running times.

Remember, although its around 8 Km longer via Deer park, the Warrnambool train can maintain a speed of 115Km/h all the way to West Footscray, whereas via Newport, the train has to slow down to around 80Km/h from Altona Jn., then even slower beyond Newport.

Mike.
Loco hauled train:
Ardeer to Sunshine Junction 100 kmh
Sunshine Junction 40 lmh
Sunshine to West Footscray 100 kmh
West Footscray to Spion Kop 65 kmh
Spion Kop to Flyover 30 kmh
Flyover to platforms 25 kmh
DalyWaters
And therin @DalyWaters describes decades of crap track planning by all concerned. And that included RRL.

At any inter-city terminal in Europe you would expect any conventional train (not HSR) to have reached 100 kph by the time passed the equivalent of Dudley St, and still accelerating.
At SCS it takes 7km to get up to 100kph, and not until the 20km mark before exceeding that. Total garbage in these days.

It's not the maximum regional line speed slowing down VLine trains to a crawl and turning customers off, it's  the urban interface.

Cheers
John
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Ideally W’bool Services should be running express Footsgrey to Geelong via Newport / Werribee, this would cut at least 20Mins from W’bool Services alone...

Running express from Geelong to SCS via Newport OR via Deer Park is only a saving of about 5 minutes in running times.

Remember, although its around 8 Km longer via Deer park, the Warrnambool train can maintain a speed of 115Km/h all the way to West Footscray, whereas via Newport, the train has to slow down to around 80Km/h from Altona Jn., then even slower beyond Newport.

Mike.
Loco hauled train:
Ardeer to Sunshine Junction 100 kmh
Sunshine Junction 40 lmh
Sunshine to West Footscray 100 kmh
West Footscray to Spion Kop 65 kmh
Spion Kop to Flyover 30 kmh
Flyover to platforms 25 kmh
DalyWaters

I remain to be convinced abouta few of these speed limits. Nevertheless, Spion Kop to platforms 15 & 16 is MUCH higher than 25 or 30 Km/h.

Mike.
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Mister Fact Checker
Ideally W’bool Services should be running express Footsgrey to Geelong via Newport / Werribee, this would cut at least 20Mins from W’bool Services alone...
Loco hauled train:
Ardeer to Sunshine Junction 100 kmh
Sunshine Junction 40 lmh
Sunshine to West Footscray 100 kmh
West Footscray to Spion Kop 65 kmh
Spion Kop to Flyover 30 kmh
Flyover to platforms 25 kmh

I remain to be convinced abouta few of these speed limits. Nevertheless, Spion Kop to platforms 15 & 16 is MUCH higher than 25 or 30 Km/h.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Mike,
that might be the case IF the w'bool train originated at plat 15/16.

But of course the starting problem is plat 2/3. Surely you've experienced that with a loco service.
Navigating the maze out from the platform, and then the horror of the flyover. How many points and cross-overs is that ?

RRL out of plat 15 could be better, but of course there is another dozen or so points & cross-overs to slow things down. Talk about a missed opportunity, it's ridiculous.

cheers
John
  DalyWaters Chief Commissioner

Ideally W’bool Services should be running express Footsgrey to Geelong via Newport / Werribee, this would cut at least 20Mins from W’bool Services alone...

Running express from Geelong to SCS via Newport OR via Deer Park is only a saving of about 5 minutes in running times.

Remember, although its around 8 Km longer via Deer park, the Warrnambool train can maintain a speed of 115Km/h all the way to West Footscray, whereas via Newport, the train has to slow down to around 80Km/h from Altona Jn., then even slower beyond Newport.

Mike.
Loco hauled train:
Ardeer to Sunshine Junction 100 kmh
Sunshine Junction 40 lmh
Sunshine to West Footscray 100 kmh
West Footscray to Spion Kop 65 kmh
Spion Kop to Flyover 30 kmh
Flyover to platforms 25 kmh

I remain to be convinced abouta few of these speed limits. Nevertheless, Spion Kop to platforms 15 & 16 is MUCH higher than 25 or 30 Km/h.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Warrnambool train usually goes from platform 3b or 5, hence my description of the route via the flyover..

For those trains that go from platforms 15 or 16, the speed is 65 to Spion Kop except for a 50 kmh curve at North Melbourne.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Just build the new tunnel already from newport to fishermans bend and SCS and connect up to the rfr/ rrl and electrify. Build some diesel electric hybrid vlocities so that you don't have diesel fumes in the tunnels.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Just build the new tunnel already from newport to fishermans bend and SCS and connect up to the rfr/ rrl and electrify. Build some diesel electric hybrid vlocities so that you don't have diesel fumes in the tunnels.
simstrain

Exactly.  But I would go further and electrify to the Geelong area and also via the RRL and via the new tuinnel.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Just build the new tunnel already from newport to fishermans bend and SCS and connect up to the rfr/ rrl and electrify. Build some diesel electric hybrid vlocities so that you don't have diesel fumes in the tunnels.

Exactly.  But I would go further and electrify to the Geelong area and also via the RRL and via the new tuinnel.
bevans

I was thinking hybrid for beyond Geelong but yes I agree to electrification to Geelong considering that it really isn't that far from SCS. If Sydney can electrify to Lithgow, Kiama and Newcastle then why can't Melbourne electrify to Geelong, Ballarat and Bendigo.
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Mister Fact Checker
Just build the new tunnel already from newport to fishermans bend and SCS and connect up to the rfr/ rrl and electrify. Build some diesel electric hybrid vlocities so that you don't have diesel fumes in the tunnels.

Exactly.  But I would go further and electrify to the Geelong area and also via the RRL and via the new tuinnel.

I was thinking hybrid for beyond Geelong but yes I agree to electrification to Geelong considering that it really isn't that far from SCS. If Sydney can electrify to Lithgow, Kiama and Newcastle then why can't Melbourne electrify to Geelong, Ballarat and Bendigo.
simstrain
none of youz seem to get it.

"Geelong" is no longer the destination. It's Waurn Ponds.

That means an extra 13km of sparks, duplicated,  AND  widen/duplicate the tunnel.
That's big $$$ , for what benefit is still not clear.

EDIT , and add in another 9 LX removals $$$.

cheers
John
  route14 Chief Commissioner

20 minute off-peak frequency justifies for electrification even if only as far as Geelong.  A two-car Sprinter can be used to run shuttle between Geelong and Waurn Ponds.  Level crossings will have to be removed with or without electrification if they are on the list.
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Mister Fact Checker
20 minute off-peak frequency justifies for electrification even if only as far as Geelong.  A two-car Sprinter can be used to run shuttle between Geelong and Waurn Ponds.  Level crossings will have to be removed with or without electrification if they are on the list.
route14
What planet are you on ?

Youz just don't get it. The START of the Geelong commute to Melbourne is WAURN PONDS.
You want at least 50% of the pax to do a shuttle shuffle instead of their existing direct/semi express. Just add another 15 minutes - sure !!!
  route14 Chief Commissioner

Last time I traveled their it was in the counter-peak direction so sorry for not being familiar with the patronage in western part of Geelong, but if it's a well used section it's worth the infrustructural investment you mentioned that is necessary.

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