PS, as for engines overall, out of the 38cl I worked on, the worst of them was 3801 and the reasons have been posted previously.Could 3801's performance have improved since its various restorations, particularly now that it's refurbished boiler has been upgraded to allow it to again reach its maximum designed boiler pressure?

I doubt that it's related to boiler pressure. I have no technical expertise at all, but on the tours I went on 1998-2008, 3830 seemed to steam better than 3801.
Of the 3 RTM 38s, 01 was regarded as the worst performer. One of the issues identified in its restoration related to draughting in the smokebox and there are references to it on THNSW's website about the 3801 project and changes they had to make. This had also been an issue also in the days when it was operated by 3801 Limited. Who knows, if these issues have been overcome maybe 3801 will perform like a 38 should.

I always respect the comments of M636C, however the Germans didn't build exactly as designed. There were manufacturing errors, and trouble came from both sides. I have given my word that I will not specify these manufacturing errors, as they were told to me in confidence, but at least two serious dimensional faults were not attributable to Australian drawings. The German firm avoided any legal ramifications by going out of business.

Had the job been given to the Goulburn firm in the first place, periodic inspections and/or "sorting out" of queries would have been considerably easier, and we still should have had 3801 operating six or seven years ago. The tyranny of distance did not help.

As I understand it the Meiningen workshop is still in business.
They are to build the boiler for "Prince of Wales", the owners being happy with the boiler for "Tornado"

The contract was to "design and build".
A design was prepared in Germany and approved in Australia.
The boiler was built to the approved drawing but was found not to fit on arrival.

At the time the boiler was ordered from Germany, it was at least implied that the existing boiler was not worth repairing.

Most of the "delay" was caused by returning the boiler to Germany and when it was realised that the Germans were not to blame, doing nothing.

The Germans actually repaired their 3801 boiler, replacing fixed firebox stays that were not up to specification. This did not help the boiler not being usable owing to the drawings not being properly reviewed in Australia. These stays were also in Tornado's boiler and the locomotive operated for a year with no problems, but the stays were replaced when the boiler was returned to Germany.

Peter

I think what Valvegear was referring to was the Office of rail heritage which went out in 2013/14

Some big news from THNSW in their March 2020 Board report-https://www.thnsw.com.au/post/board-wrap-up-march-2020

Key points

• All activities from now to at least July have been cancelled
• Total losses from the pandemic related cancellations and bushfires-1.7 million
• Independent post overhaul condition assessment commission on 3801 headed by David Wright from the UK to start as soon as possible
• 5.5 million allocated to upgrading the loopline
• Stage one of Chullora Heritage hub to commence with the planned transfer of four items from Broadmeadow and two items from the North Eveleigh Paint Shop
• A condition assessment has started on 5711 with a boiler inspection on the 24th of March

Um what's that German word for "making sh.t up" hey Valvegear?

I don't know and it's not applicable anyway. I told you what was reported to me, and the origins of that information.

PS, as for engines overall, out of the 38cl I worked on, the worst of them was 3801 and the reasons have been posted previously.Could 3801's performance have improved since its various restorations, particularly now that it's refurbished boiler has been upgraded to allow it to again reach its maximum designed boiler pressure?I doubt that it's related to boiler pressure. I have no technical expertise at all, but on the tours I went on 1998-2008, 3830 seemed to steam better than 3801.
Of the 3 RTM 38s, 01 was regarded as the worst performer. One of the issues identified in its restoration related to draughting in the smokebox and there are references to it on THNSW's website about the 3801 project and changes they had to make. This had also been an issue also in the days when it was operated by 3801 Limited. Who knows, if these issues have been overcome maybe 3801 will perform like a 38 should.

There were issues with 01 from the time it came out of Cardiff and its overhaul there for whatever reason and I did hear of issues with the loco as a result of work done on the cylinders.  One thing I do know is that it certainly had more issues than the other 38's at the time when working goods trains at full loads especially if they were also of full length. Drivers I know said they had to work it harder to achieve the same ability in pulling the train than other members of the class.  On Passenger trains there was no issue over the loads being lighter and shorter.

The best example that sticks in my mind was at Clyde up yard when I as the fireman and a well known historical writer driver releved the crew on 392 goods off the south. The incoming driver made a comment about its poor pulling ability, which he put down to the length and being a full load of 1000tons.  We walked to the train, got up in the cab, and as we got a green light from the shunter to bring the train forward, and even with a full head of steam, we could not lift the load, all 01 did was to slip, in the end we had to have one of the freighters that was the shunting engine come down and help us through to drop off the wagons needed.

The load would have been lifted readily by a 36cl and other 38cl.

Given the time its taken and the extra work carried out on the engine as a whole, I doubt we will see the same again, and I cannot see it taking a 1000ton freight train from Moss Vale to Clyde up yard either.

In an earlier post I mentioned that I had over time purchased a number of books that have been of immense benefit to me, and really top up a lot of areas that I worked in and helped extend my interest to such things like Model Railways, being on RP and having input in forums that have interest to me has also been a very interesting experience, I don't say I am correct in some areas but I try to stay out of areas that I have not experienced in a hands on way, except at times when I have read an item in a book, that sometimes is not quite right or correct or at other times just ignore it.

The topic of green colour for locomotives in NSW has been one of those topics that has been one of both interest but also where views have been supported that are both right and wrong, something that I put my hand up in both sides.  The big aspect in this debate is of how we each see a colour, or shade along with the use of photo's to support ones side of the debate, as I have said and others also saying the same that colours change over time, and under the conditions they are being analysed in, likewise often colour renditions with different photo brands also bring out different colour renditions.

This afternoon as I sit in self isolation and trying to do some items of interest, as usual some of this discussion sat in the back of my head, and as I looked at my bookcase I noticed a particular book that was the last one I purchased and remember putting on RP my thoughts on it for the NSW enthusiast and modeller, a book that is quite big and has a lot of information in it that those interested in the NSW railways history from 1855 to 1957, should obtain a copy of it or at least have access to it, the book is Titled NSW Railways in Colour 1855-1957.  Up until this time I have only skimmed through it owing to its size and what I would say is the vast amount of areas it covers.  It includes a lot of photo's but also a lot of drawings that have had colour filling dependant on the colour that was in use at the time, for both the rolling stock as well as locomotives.

When it comes to the topic of green in use on locomotives, it shows reports and directions regarding what colour was used, a photo I have mentioned previously shows 3666 on Cowan bank with a set of Red & Cream clerestory roof carriages, its very easy to see the colours on the carriages but for the loco, its relatively hard to say for sure the colour but its green and a dark one at that.  Some pages over there is some information that has the standard green colour to apply to locomotives was the Mid Brunswick Green, there's also details on the colours of the lining and the like, it mentions the 32cl, 35 & 36 as being painted in the Mid Brunswick green, but when it comes to the 38cl the term  Special Green comes up as being the colour for the whole class to be painted in.

There are more than a few mentions of the colours, but a couple of sections have such headings as Other Colourful Trains of the 1930's -  Green Passenger Engines 1930 - 1940's:   One section deals with locomotives of the 2nd World War years and then follows through with carriages, goods rolling stock, steam locomotives and diesels.

In what I have read and discovered in this book, there is a lot of great info and reading, many drawings done by the Data Sheets owner Greg Edwards are the big feature in this book with locomotives that are drawn being coloured in accord to the railways directives.

There is a photo of 3806 at Eveliegh that was posted on this forum that had a streamliner behind it, the pic was a bit tatty and said to be the oldest colour photo of a green 38, this is published again in this book with the tatty aspect removed, it is said to be painted in the Special Green, when looking at it, its easy to pick the green on the tender is in good nick and certainly looks the Special Green colour, however as you look at the loco, there is a degree of what I would deem being photo colour fade showing on the valance and boiler.

An interesting and worthwhile book that has a lot of treasures of the past being brought out into the open.

Remaining at the edge of the topic, when we were kids one of my brothers had a jigsaw puzzle of a green 35 on a train in platform 4 at Hornsby. If you find it in your aforementioned book could you let us know the details of it?

Remaining at the edge of the topic, when we were kids one of my brothers had a jigsaw puzzle of a green 35 on a train in platform 4 at Hornsby. If you find it in your aforementioned book could you let us know the details of it?

There is mention of it with a photo showing the completed Jigsaw, and its a coloured one.  The area that it falls into is publicity and how the Railways of the time were all about publicity.  

Without trying to find it again, there is mention as to the various carriages and the changes over the years, that included the various trains over the years, Caves exp, South coast daylight, Newcastle Xpresses etc, which included the matching paint schemes for the loco's.  It also gives details regarding the other colour schemes including the simplifying of the old Tuscan & greenish colour, then to the Post war Tuscan & russet on the H & Cars.

I don't regret buying the book and while its not cheap, there is a lot of value in it.

Here is a post discussing the colour of 4501, the prototype for the 46 class. The author makes the plausible statement that the prototype electric loco "No 4501 was painted green, I assume because that was the then current colour of express steam locomotives."

There are three photographs at the foot of the post. The colour looks a bit different in each, according to the light conditions. They seem to provide another guide to the appearance of the green-painted 38 cl.

Here is a post discussing the colour of 4501, the prototype for the 46 class. The author makes the plausible statement that the prototype electric loco "No 4501 was painted green, I assume because that was the then current colour of express steam locomotives."

There are three photographs at the foot of the post. The colour looks a bit different in each, according to the light conditions. They seem to provide another guide to the appearance of the green-painted 38 cl.

In the book I mentioned above, the introduction of the Special Green for the 38cl, also includes 4501E, also it says the 40c & 41cl were also delivered in that Special Green colour.

There are lots of reasons why a locomotive might run dead. If it can't hold boiler pressure I think I'd go looking around the smokebox end. If it is slippery then chances are it has hollow wheels that need turning. I have travelled on 38s that were pretty woeful but this was unusual and on those occasions the driver booked it for repairs, there was some fault with the draughting.
Since the 38s were built there has been a lot of new information, well, not new, but now more accepted, regarding how to get better draught with lower exhaust back pressure. I am not sure just what 3801's blast pipe arrangements are, but if it runs dead that is the first place to go looking.

On previous comments regarding what is next up for restorations or overhauls, I personally think that rather than working on 3830, which is still a great locomotive and should be kept in mind, locomotives like 5711, 5910, 3616 or even a standard goods should be looked at instead of the 38s, especially now that work on Chullora heritage hub is planned to commence soon, possibly when the pandemic ends
Right now all that is operational is 2705, 3016, 3265, 3237, 3526, 3801, 5917 and 6029 with 3001 soon to be, think of a future with 2705, 3001, 3016, 3112, 3237, 3265, 3526, 3616, 3801, 3830, a 50 or 53, 5711, 5910, 5917 and 6029
One can dream


Still, let's not forget about 3813 or 3820

On previous comments regarding what is next up for restorations or overhauls, I personally think that rather than working on 3830, which is still a great locomotive and should be kept in mind, locomotives like 5711, 5910, 3616 or even a standard goods should be looked at instead of the 38s, especially now that work on Chullora heritage hub is set to commence soon, possible once the pandemic ends
Right now all that is operational is 2705, 3016, 3265, 3237, 3526, 3801, 5917 and 6029 with 3001 soon to be, think of a future with 2705, 3001, 3016, 3112, 3237, 3526, 3616, 3801, 3830, a 50 or 53, 5711, 5910, 5917 and 6029
One can dream


Still, let's not forget about 3813 or 3820

Did read with surprise, here? Boiler inspection on 5711. Excellent news and crossed fingers.
But forget 3813, not happening.

On previous comments regarding what is next up for restorations or overhauls, I personally think that rather than working on 3830, which is still a great locomotive and should be kept in mind, locomotives like 5711, 5910, 3616 or even a standard goods should be looked at instead of the 38s, especially now that work on Chullora heritage hub is set to commence soon, possible once the pandemic ends
Right now all that is operational is 2705, 3016, 3265, 3237, 3526, 3801, 5917 and 6029 with 3001 soon to be, think of a future with 2705, 3001, 3016, 3112, 3237, 3526, 3616, 3801, 3830, a 50 or 53, 5711, 5910, 5917 and 6029
One can dream


Still, let's not forget about 3813 or 3820

Did read with surprise, here? Boiler inspection on 5711. Excellent news and crossed fingers.
But forget 3813, not happening.

3813 should not have been sent to where it is now (I won't mention the D word). I recall the then Thirlmere swapped it for some other locomotive. I don't know what the thinking was behind that decision,but I wonder, whether if there is any chance of getting it back?

On previous comments regarding what is next up for restorations or overhauls, I personally think that rather than working on 3830, which is still a great locomotive and should be kept in mind, locomotives like 5711, 5910, 3616 or even a standard goods should be looked at instead of the 38s, especially now that work on Chullora heritage hub is set to commence soon, possible once the pandemic ends
Right now all that is operational is 2705, 3016, 3265, 3237, 3526, 3801, 5917 and 6029 with 3001 soon to be, think of a future with 2705, 3001, 3016, 3112, 3237, 3526, 3616, 3801, 3830, a 50 or 53, 5711, 5910, 5917 and 6029
One can dream


Still, let's not forget about 3813 or 3820

Did read with surprise, here? Boiler inspection on 5711. Excellent news and crossed fingers.
But forget 3813, not happening.

3813 should not have been sent to where it is now (I won't mention the D word). I recall the then Thirlmere swapped it for some other locomotive. I don't know what the thinking was behind that decision,but I wonder, whether if there is any chance of getting it back

Incorrect, 3813 was dismantled for an overhaul in 1975 at Eveleigh when the then commissioner of the PTC ordered that the overhaul be stopped and the parts be sent for scrapping. The NSWRTM managed a reprieve and the parts were then scattered around various sites and sidings and split between the powerhouse museum and NSWRTM-The boiler went to Castle hill, tender and frame to Hornsby and other components to Thirlmere in S trucks. The frame and tender were given to Dorrigo by the PHM in the 80s, the boiler by the PHM in the 90s and the other parts went from Thirlmere in 2005
Given the reports around the owner I would be surprised if he would even give a wheelset away for any less than 1 million

On previous comments regarding what is next up for restorations or overhauls, I personally think that rather than working on 3830, which is still a great locomotive and should be kept in mind, locomotives like 5711, 5910, 3616 or even a standard goods should be looked at instead of the 38s, especially now that work on Chullora heritage hub is set to commence soon, possible once the pandemic ends
Right now all that is operational is 2705, 3016, 3265, 3237, 3526, 3801, 5917 and 6029 with 3001 soon to be, think of a future with 2705, 3001, 3016, 3112, 3237, 3526, 3616, 3801, 3830, a 50 or 53, 5711, 5910, 5917 and 6029
One can dream


Still, let's not forget about 3813 or 3820

Did read with surprise, here? Boiler inspection on 5711. Excellent news and crossed fingers.
But forget 3813, not happening.

3813 should not have been sent to where it is now (I won't mention the D word). I recall the then Thirlmere swapped it for some other locomotive. I don't know what the thinking was behind that decision,but I wonder, whether if there is any chance of getting it back

Incorrect, 3813 was dismantled for an overhaul in 1975 at Eveleigh when the then commissioner of the PTC ordered that the overhaul be stopped and the parts be sent for scrapping. The NSWRTM managed a reprieve and the parts were then scattered around various sites and sidings and split between the powerhouse museum and NSWRTM-The boiler went to Castle hill, tender and frame to Hornsby and other components to Thirlmere in S trucks. The frame and tender were given to Dorrigo by the PHM in the 80s, the boiler by the PHM in the 90s and the other parts went from Thirlmere in 2005
Given the reports around the owner I would be surprised if he would even give a wheelset away for any less than 1 million

13 actually was in the LES in a dismantled state and work had been fairly well advanced on it when Shirley went in for his first inspection of the place, when he saw the work on 13 being carried out on it, he enquired as to what was going on with it, the reply was that it the former Commissioner, Neil McCusker had approved the overhaul of the engine for rail tours, money and workers had been allocated for the work, basically it was a farewell gift to the railways and a legacy for them.

On arrival back to his office, he sent a directive to the works manager and heads of the Mechanical branch for all work to stop and the parts were to be removed from the workshops.  The S trucks with parts along with that of the tender, boiler and frame were sent to the Clyde wagon works and stowed out in the paddock for ages, in the open.  It was much the same when he issued the directive on leaving his office and sent to BMD an PTW depots that all steam operations were to cease at midnight on the particular date.   Had that happened quite a number of trains would have been cancelled that were rostered including crews.  And arrangement was made by the control offices and depot chargemen to bring all the engines into their respective depots, service them and coal them for the work rostered, and they were to be out of the depot by Midnight thus it basically was in the time frame of the directive from Shirley.  When Shirley arrived in the office next day he heard about it and ordered the engines into the depots immediately.

From what I found out regarding 13's overhaul being stopped by Shirley is that there was only a few weeks work left on the overhaul, and was a real disgrace.  I had walked into the shops a few weeks before Shirley started and saw how advanced the work was. McCusker wanted the overhaul finished before he retired, the belief was that the overhaul would have been at such an advanced stage it would have been completed owing to the invested amount in the work.  I guess he must have not realised the extent of the hatred that Shirley had for steam, I also wonder at what if any input that the Premier who appointed Shirley to the job had in this decision as he hated the NSW railways in a big way following the industrial turmoil of the 60's from all levels of the NSWGR and other state utilities.
Shirley started as Chief Commissioner 20th October 1972 and finished in 1st December 1975.

On previous comments regarding what is next up for restorations or overhauls, I personally think that rather than working on 3830, which is still a great locomotive and should be kept in mind, locomotives like 5711, 5910, 3616 or even a standard goods should be looked at instead of the 38s, especially now that work on Chullora heritage hub is planned to commence soon, possibly when the pandemic ends
Right now all that is operational is 2705, 3016, 3265, 3237, 3526, 3801, 5917 and 6029 with 3001 soon to be, think of a future with 2705, 3001, 3016, 3112, 3237, 3265, 3526, 3616, 3801, 3830, a 50 or 53, 5711, 5910, 5917 and 6029
One can dream


Still, let's not forget about 3813 or 3820

3016 is not operational

Remaining at the edge of the topic, when we were kids one of my brothers had a jigsaw puzzle of a green 35 on a train in platform 4 at Hornsby. If you find it in your aforementioned book could you let us know the details of it?

There is mention of it with a photo showing the completed Jigsaw, and its a coloured one.  The area that it falls into is publicity and how the Railways of the time were all about publicity.  

Without trying to find it again, there is mention as to the various carriages and the changes over the years, that included the various trains over the years, Caves exp, South coast daylight, Newcastle Xpresses etc, which included the matching paint schemes for the loco's.  It also gives details regarding the other colour schemes including the simplifying of the old Tuscan & greenish colour, then to the Post war Tuscan & russet on the H & Cars.

I don't regret buying the book and while its not cheap, there is a lot of value in it.

Thanks a6et.

Remaining at the edge of the topic, when we were kids one of my brothers had a jigsaw puzzle of a green 35 on a train in platform 4 at Hornsby. If you find it in your aforementioned book could you let us know the details of it?

There is mention of it with a photo showing the completed Jigsaw, and its a coloured one.  The area that it falls into is publicity and how the Railways of the time were all about publicity.  

Without trying to find it again, there is mention as to the various carriages and the changes over the years, that included the various trains over the years, Caves exp, South coast daylight, Newcastle Xpresses etc, which included the matching paint schemes for the loco's.  It also gives details regarding the other colour schemes including the simplifying of the old Tuscan & greenish colour, then to the Post war Tuscan & russet on the H & Cars.

I don't regret buying the book and while its not cheap, there is a lot of value in it.

Thanks a6et.

No problems Graham, as a bit of side interest, there is no number for the 35cl either on the buffer beam or cab side, which is somewhat strange as the NSWGR liked to publicise a lot of their passenger services in an earlier time.

On previous comments regarding what is next up for restorations or overhauls, I personally think that rather than working on 3830, which is still a great locomotive and should be kept in mind, locomotives like 5711, 5910, 3616 or even a standard goods should be looked at instead of the 38s, especially now that work on Chullora heritage hub is set to commence soon, possible once the pandemic ends
Right now all that is operational is 2705, 3016, 3265, 3237, 3526, 3801, 5917 and 6029 with 3001 soon to be, think of a future with 2705, 3001, 3016, 3112, 3237, 3526, 3616, 3801, 3830, a 50 or 53, 5711, 5910, 5917 and 6029
One can dream


Still, let's not forget about 3813 or 3820

Did read with surprise, here? Boiler inspection on 5711. Excellent news and crossed fingers.
But forget 3813, not happening.

3813 should not have been sent to where it is now (I won't mention the D word). I recall the then Thirlmere swapped it for some other locomotive. I don't know what the thinking was behind that decision,but I wonder, whether if there is any chance of getting it back

Incorrect, 3813 was dismantled for an overhaul in 1975 at Eveleigh when the then commissioner of the PTC ordered that the overhaul be stopped and the parts be sent for scrapping. The NSWRTM managed a reprieve and the parts were then scattered around various sites and sidings and split between the powerhouse museum and NSWRTM-The boiler went to Castle hill, tender and frame to Hornsby and other components to Thirlmere in S trucks. The frame and tender were given to Dorrigo by the PHM in the 80s, the boiler by the PHM in the 90s and the other parts went from Thirlmere in 2005
Given the reports around the owner I would be surprised if he would even give a wheelset away for any less than 1 million

My recollection is that the reason 3813 ended up at Dorrigo was that the RTM had to cull its huge collection and that 3813 went to Dorrigo on the clear condition that it would be returned if it was ever to be restored to service. My understanding is that one of the significant impediments to restoring it is that years of inappropriate storage led to significant sagging or distortion of the cast frame. I'm not sure if this could be easily overcome. Another issue might be that it was used as a source of spare parts  when 3801 and 3830 were restored. What a6et says about Phillip Shirley is 100% correct. If wasn't for him the RTM would probably still be at Enfield. With its roundhouses and coal stage it would have been one of the greatest and authentic rail heritage sites in the world.

It is very hard to believe that we have someone like Howard Collins, a heritage enthusiast, is in basically the same position that Shirley was 45 years ago

What a contrast

It is very hard to believe that we have someone like Howard Collins, a heritage enthusiast, is in basically the same position that Shirley was 45 years ago

What a contrast

Someone else may be able to expand, IIRC, the ZZR at Lithgow was unable to source standard gauge rolling stock from the NSWGR.
Hence the narrow gauge, mostly from Queensland.
They commenced operators in 1976? Putting Shirley in the big chair at the time.
As for terminating the advanced overhaul of 3813, >_]

On previous comments regarding what is next up for restorations or overhauls, I personally think that rather than working on 3830, which is still a great locomotive and should be kept in mind, locomotives like 5711, 5910, 3616 or even a standard goods should be looked at instead of the 38s, especially now that work on Chullora heritage hub is set to commence soon, possible once the pandemic ends
Right now all that is operational is 2705, 3016, 3265, 3237, 3526, 3801, 5917 and 6029 with 3001 soon to be, think of a future with 2705, 3001, 3016, 3112, 3237, 3526, 3616, 3801, 3830, a 50 or 53, 5711, 5910, 5917 and 6029
One can dream


Still, let's not forget about 3813 or 3820

Did read with surprise, here? Boiler inspection on 5711. Excellent news and crossed fingers.
But forget 3813, not happening.

3813 should not have been sent to where it is now (I won't mention the D word). I recall the then Thirlmere swapped it for some other locomotive. I don't know what the thinking was behind that decision,but I wonder, whether if there is any chance of getting it back

Incorrect, 3813 was dismantled for an overhaul in 1975 at Eveleigh when the then commissioner of the PTC ordered that the overhaul be stopped and the parts be sent for scrapping. The NSWRTM managed a reprieve and the parts were then scattered around various sites and sidings and split between the powerhouse museum and NSWRTM-The boiler went to Castle hill, tender and frame to Hornsby and other components to Thirlmere in S trucks. The frame and tender were given to Dorrigo by the PHM in the 80s, the boiler by the PHM in the 90s and the other parts went from Thirlmere in 2005
Given the reports around the owner I would be surprised if he would even give a wheelset away for any less than 1 million

I know all about the history of 3813 with Shirley and ending up in S trucks etc. What I was enquiring about is why these parts were gifted to D? I know Thirlmere had some parts and they were swapped with D for another loco. I recall reading this in Digest some time ago. That guy up at D has had a fortune in equipment donated to him for no particular reason. He must have a Midas touch. I wonder what is going to happen when Casey finally falls off the perch?