Gippsland line timetabling

 
  gippslander Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Gippsland, Vic
pull head in - but then I couldn't even read the time-table that you conveniently overlook.

The discussion was about  the "hamlets" and yet you bang on about Dandenong down.

Reality check -
IF the Gippy line warranted the additional $2B+ to have additional tracks on SkyRail - as per the RRL project -
then it would have similar traffic demand as Geelong + Ballarat + Bendigo.
It DOES NOT. Get over it, not enough pax in the next 30 years to come even close. Not an opportunity missed, it's wastage saved.

6 full V/Los (approx 3000 pax) in the morning peak over-taking the requirements of 30+ packed Metro (approx 40,000) - soon to be extended HCMT. That IS overblown self-importance.

I didn't say 15 minutes. I posed an unanswered question, but since you are so het up about it, some facts:
Mon-Fri UP from Traralgon to Dandenong  4:31, 5:56, 7:19 SAS = 1 hr 33, 1hr 35, 1hr 31.
Mon-Fri UP from Traralgon to Dandenong  5:26, 6:36, 7:34 limited EX = 1hr 21, 1hr 25, 1hr 35
SAS inter-peak = 1hr:30
that's approx 10 minutes difference. Tough titty, suck it up for living so far away.

BUT you could as suggested by Gippslander, just by-pass the "hamlets" of Morwell, Moe, Warragul, Drouin and run half empty - good luck with the angry mob.
Some short-starters from Warragul sounds good, BUT are there enough pax to fill it? Dubious. I don't even get how you would do an SAS in front of an EX. Wait for 2nd train to run up the backside of the front-runner ?

As for being no better than the good old days - prior RRR - then just go back to 4 trains per day (now 20), SAS @ 2hrs 09. :roll:LOL.
Some people just don't know how to say thank you for what they get.
justarider
I never suggested express trains from Traralgon, Drouin-Pakenham is the low patronage sector getting over serviced. The passenger usage on the line is heavy concentrations at Traralgon-Morwell-Moe and Warragul-Drouin, whose passenger numbers dwarf the minor stations. If you look at comparable routes like Ballarat and Bendigo, all the minor stops are long gone. And don't forget that Gippsland has to co exist with 70km of metro running unlike the others. Smart timetabling can deliver a better solution for all travellers - the real issue is that the eastern corridor is complex and needs something better than just run interurban to Traralgon and back. That is 1950s thinking.

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  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland


Raising the line speed above 80 is also in Metro interest. A SAS is not going to manage in the shorter sections, however longer parts ( > 2km) would get a definite boost. Express Caulfield to the Portal/Richmond @ 130+ kph is a worthy goal for both services.


cheers
John
justarider
The MATHS corridor for the Dandenong tracks Is riddled with 60 km/h curves as It wiggles past stations.
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last


BUT you could as suggested by Gippslander, just by-pass the "hamlets" of Morwell, Moe, Warragul, Drouin and run half empty - good luck with the angry mob.
Some short-starters from Warragul sounds good, BUT are there enough pax to fill it? Dubious. I don't even get how you would do an SAS in front of an EX. Wait for 2nd train to run up the backside of the front-runner ?
I never suggested express trains from Traralgon, Drouin-Pakenham is the low patronage sector getting over serviced. The passenger usage on the line is heavy concentrations at Traralgon-Morwell-Moe and Warragul-Drouin, whose passenger numbers dwarf the minor stations. If you look at comparable routes like Ballarat and Bendigo, all the minor stops are long gone. And don't forget that Gippsland has to co exist with 70km of metro running unlike the others. Smart timetabling can deliver a better solution for all travellers - the real issue is that the eastern corridor is complex and needs something better than just run interurban to Traralgon and back. That is 1950s thinking.
gippslander
@gippslander I did stretch you advocacy of express services way beyond your own words. For that I apologize.

Minor stops is something we differ on. Ballarat is a case in point where "minor" morphed into such places as Cobblebank, Rockbank, Ballan with urban sprawl.

Bunyip & Nar Nar Goon themselves are a similar size to Ballan. Their turn will come, so I don't see justification to wipe the "minor" stations off the map yet.

Having said that, half the morning peak services already by-pass the minors.
I suspect Garfield will also lose it's reason to stop for EX once the track duplication is done.

Afternoon peak is a whole different question, and you do have a case for half of them to be EX. Makes no sense at present

The rest of this thread has morphed into a discussion on the merits of V/Line sharing with Metro, which can't help your concerns beyond Pakenham one way or other.

cheers
John
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last


Raising the line speed above 80 is also in Metro interest. A SAS is not going to manage in the shorter sections, however longer parts ( > 2km) would get a definite boost. Express Caulfield to the Portal/Richmond @ 130+ kph is a worthy goal for both services.
---justarider


The MATHS corridor for the Dandenong tracks Is riddled with 60 km/h curves as It wiggles past stations.
Nightfire
"riddled" is a strong word there.
Caulfield to Toorak is 4km straight as a die.

There will no longer any use for platforms on the Dandy line for MATHS stations.
With possible exception of Hawksburn works for the turn-back, they could rip out those platforms and nobody would notice.

The significant curve is between Chapple St and South Yarra Station. That has already been re-built for the portal. Lets see what speed is when all the TSR for line works are lifted.

cheers
John
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland


Raising the line speed above 80 is also in Metro interest. A SAS is not going to manage in the shorter sections, however longer parts ( > 2km) would get a definite boost. Express Caulfield to the Portal/Richmond @ 130+ kph is a worthy goal for both services.
---justarider


The MATHS corridor for the Dandenong tracks Is riddled with 60 km/h curves as It wiggles past stations."riddled" is a strong word there.
Caulfield to Toorak is 4km straight as a die.

There will no longer any use for platforms on the Dandy line for MATHS stations.
With possible exception of Hawksburn works for the turn-back, they could rip out those platforms and nobody would notice.

The significant curve is between Chapple St and South Yarra Station. That has already been re-built for the portal. Lets see what speed is when all the TSR for line works are lifted.

cheers
John
justarider
Armadale Railway Station has a double S curve for the Dandenong tracks.

If you were going to rip out disused platforms, It would be best to remove the 2 side platforms, consolidating all passenger facilities on to the Island platform, this provides scope to expand the corridor to 6 tracks.
  skitz Chief Commissioner



BUT you could as suggested by Gippslander, just by-pass the "hamlets" of Morwell, Moe, Warragul, Drouin and run half empty - good luck with the angry mob.
Some short-starters from Warragul sounds good, BUT are there enough pax to fill it? Dubious. I don't even get how you would do an SAS in front of an EX. Wait for 2nd train to run up the backside of the front-runner ?
I never suggested express trains from Traralgon, Drouin-Pakenham is the low patronage sector getting over serviced. The passenger usage on the line is heavy concentrations at Traralgon-Morwell-Moe and Warragul-Drouin, whose passenger numbers dwarf the minor stations. If you look at comparable routes like Ballarat and Bendigo, all the minor stops are long gone. And don't forget that Gippsland has to co exist with 70km of metro running unlike the others. Smart timetabling can deliver a better solution for all travellers - the real issue is that the eastern corridor is complex and needs something better than just run interurban to Traralgon and back. That is 1950s thinking.
@gippslander I did stretch you advocacy of express services way beyond your own words. For that I apologize.

Minor stops is something we differ on. Ballarat is a case in point where "minor" morphed into such places as Cobblebank, Rockbank, Ballan with urban sprawl.

Bunyip & Nar Nar Goon themselves are a similar size to Ballan. Their turn will come, so I don't see justification to wipe the "minor" stations off the map yet.

Having said that, half the morning peak services already by-pass the minors.
I suspect Garfield will also lose it's reason to stop for EX once the track duplication is done.

Afternoon peak is a whole different question, and you do have a case for half of them to be EX. Makes no sense at present

The rest of this thread has morphed into a discussion on the merits of V/Line sharing with Metro, which can't help your concerns beyond Pakenham one way or other.

cheers
John
justarider

Bunyip and Tynong are a mere 4km (or less) from Garfield and Nar Nar Goon the same to Pakenham.  All with a straight-forward road between them all.   The real solution is to build a new Garfield station on the west side (top of the grade) and provide the capacity for park and ride and focus that as the point for the express service for those who commute in that region.  What the little places do with the 'shopping and school runs' in between is a different problem.  Point being its not that they have no service but the set up to do both.



One would imagine that afternoon peak trains would be six car sets that split at Pakenham, one for the local and one for the express (to Drouin, for example).   The opposite in the peak morning services.  (the aim being to simplify paths in Metro of course).  Not forgetting slow running behind sparks exists between Pakenham and Dandenong now and every bit as bad as Dandenong to Caulfield.



We could also debate the setup of the metro stopping to 'skip a station' running like they do on the Armidale line in Perth which works well without world war 3.  Cranbourne stop pattern A.  Pakenham stop pattern B.  All trains stop the Caulfield, Clayton, Dandenong.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

Then how do you travel to the next station?
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner



Raising the line speed above 80 is also in Metro interest. A SAS is not going to manage in the shorter sections, however longer parts ( > 2km) would get a definite boost. Express Caulfield to the Portal/Richmond @ 130+ kph is a worthy goal for both services.
---justarider


The MATHS corridor for the Dandenong tracks Is riddled with 60 km/h curves as It wiggles past stations."riddled" is a strong word there.
Caulfield to Toorak is 4km straight as a die.

There will no longer any use for platforms on the Dandy line for MATHS stations.
With possible exception of Hawksburn works for the turn-back, they could rip out those platforms and nobody would notice.

The significant curve is between Chapple St and South Yarra Station. That has already been re-built for the portal. Lets see what speed is when all the TSR for line works are lifted.

cheers
John
justarider
That was looked at previously when Westernport was all the go for Melbourne's second port to get an extra track in Dynon to Dandenong potentailly dg shared by freight trains and VLP passes with stops only at Richmond, Caulfield, Clayton and Dandenong. The best you can get is one extra track viz 5 tracks total by taking out the island platforms and eliminating the curves .
  jakar Assistant Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Unlike signalling where the driver is aware what is happening in front, for LX the driver must be able to see and avoid danger on his/her own initiative. Hence a limited speed such that driver can see and avoid in time ie: 80kph.  Removing all the LX takes this factor out of the consideration for track speed.
justarider
I'm sorry justarider but this is an incorrect assumption, as I said twice before level crossings do not have anything to do with line speed*. There are many level crossings all across the network including in 160km/h sections that we approach with extremely limited vision and don't have a hope in hell of stopping beforehand. At night even on straight track it is hard to determine if something is on the LX until it is way too late.

Express Caulfield to the Portal/Richmond @ 130+ kph is a worthy goal for both services.
justarider
The Local lines have 60km/h curves at both Armadale and Hawksburn and the Through lines have a 65km/h curve at Malvern and a 75km/h curve at Armadale. I believe the platform buildings are protected which limits any ability to straighten the track at these locations.

Hence when V/line arrives 2 minutes late, do not wait while 3 of 4 Metro go thru until another larger gap appears - just go next even if it means up the tail of a SAS. Better than wasting another 20 minutes.
justarider
I think you've misunderstood this. There are exceptions but currently an UP V/Line service departs Pakenham just before an UP Metro service so the V/Line train in theory gets a largely clear run to Dandenong. At Dandenong the V/Line train departs just before an UP Cranbourne so it gets a clear run until it catches another UP Pakenham somewhere around Sandown Park all going well, then it crawls at around 40km/h behind it all the way to Caulfield. If the V/Line service misses its path at Pakenham or Dandenong its not sitting there waiting for a better path whilst Metro services come and go, it is immediately given a run behind the SAS Metro that it was meant to be in front. It takes 20-25 minutes longer to get to SCS because it loses any clear running, which will just get worse when there are more Metro services to contend with; In other words the Gippsland line is just going to get slower with a turn up and go service.

The significant curve is between Chapple St and South Yarra Station. That has already been re-built for the portal. Lets see what speed is when all the TSR for line works are lifted.
justarider
There are no TSR's, everything that is there now is permanent. The curve has been reduced from 50km/h to 40km/h and the line speed has been reduced from 80km/h to 60km/h between South Yarra and Hawksburn.

I remember seeing the old line speed on Vicsig, with a speed limit of 95 km/h between Oakleigh and Noble Park.
route14
Pretty sure it was only ever between Oakleigh and Huntingdale which is still the case for sparks, Vlo's and Sprinters.

At any rate something has to be done with travel times from Gippsland. The common complaint from Gippslanders I speak to is that it is just too slow and in most case going by car is quicker, easier and more reliable. I still believe that it was a massive wasted opportunity that skyrail was not designed with additional tracks, even if they were not immediately built.


*with the exception of some unprotected level crossings outside of the commuter network which are not part if this discussion.
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

There was a similar thread some time ago discussing the merits of quad between Dandenong and Caulfield. I have been unable to find the post I was looking for. But I digress, the general thrust was more time saving could be made in the 200+kms after Pakenham than the 58km to Flinders Street. Some smarty with the calculator worked out that something in the realm of an hour could be shaved off the running time with improvements to curves and track speed. Far out weighing the 20 or so minutes that could be saved between Dandenong and Flinders Street.

I do agree the current situation is a bit of a mess. It is no comparison to the mess RRL fixed only to create new ones. One of the biggest problems we have currently in Victoria, partly thanks to Dan, is our obsession with massive projects. We need to squeeze the current infrastructure before we go off spending billions quading to save 15 minutes. With the introduction of Turn up and Go, services on the Dandenong corridor will be fixed. Running time between Pakenham and South Yarra will be fixed. Dandenong to Toorak Road is 26km, this isn't a great distance. If running time can be pushed closer to 30 minutes between Dandenong and FFS this would not be much different to Bendigo commuters. (Sunbury - SSS)

Easiest way to fix the current situation is to upgrade, as much as possible, the track to Class 1. This would allow for 160km/h running for the majority of the line, sliming the current run time down as much as possible.
Also, introduce a 2 tier service as has been suggested. Bairnsdale/Traralgon services express from Warragul to Dandenong, Dandenong too Caulfield. Services every 30 minutes during the peak. 'Commuter Service' from Warragul picking up those not so small hamlets on the way to Dandenong, again every 30 minutes during the peak. Then back to hourly or 40 minutes off peak.

High Capacity signalling allows for theoretical output of 36 TPH. If services departed every 10 from Pakenham & Cranbourne this is  24 TPH, four from V/line is 28TPH. Still have 4 or so spare train paths during the peak period.

We are not yet at the stage of needing to spend billions on quading, the current line is not yet at saturation and won't be from some time. What many have overstated here is running time and people won't use it because it takes too long. This is not the determining factor for many commuters. Reliability is, knowing that if I get on a 0600 train I will reach my destination at the same time everyday.

Lockie
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
One thing Traralgon trains struggle with (that people haven't touched on) Is getting a clear path from Richmond to Finders Street and onto Southern Cross, Up trains always seem to blow out their timetable In this section, I have been on a Melbourne bound train that spent half an hour waiting outside the MCG
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

@Nightfire

I don’t think it’s been touched on as this problem is soon to be solved. Come MM1 day one, V/Line will have dedicated tracks between Toorak Road & Southern Cross. Any delays in this section are soon to be mute. With Dandenong services not stoping at MATHS stations, V/line will have an ‘express’ run from Caulfield to Southern Cross
  skitz Chief Commissioner

@Nightfire

I don’t think it’s been touched on as this problem is soon to be solved. Come MM1 day one, V/Line will have dedicated tracks between Toorak Road & Southern Cross. Any delays in this section are soon to be mute. With Dandenong services not stoping at MATHS stations, V/line will have an ‘express’ run from Caulfield to Southern Cross
Lockie91
The reliability issue here is the cross over at west Richmond, subject to the pathing of the junction and many lines (read random).

Even with the new tunnel the services are still subject to this randomness.

The solution to this is run the Gippsland trains via the Caulfield loop and join the procession (and manage the use of diesel in the tunnels of course, which drives perceptions and not reality I might add.   Wait for it.)
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
@Nightfire

I don’t think it’s been touched on as this problem is soon to be solved. Come MM1 day one, V/Line will have dedicated tracks between Toorak Road & Southern Cross. Any delays in this section are soon to be mute. With Dandenong services not stoping at MATHS stations, V/line will have an ‘express’ run from Caulfield to Southern Cross
The reliability issue here is the cross over at west Richmond, subject to the pathing of the junction and many lines (read random).

Even with the new tunnel the services are still subject to this randomness.

The solution to this is run the Gippsland trains via the Caulfield loop and join the procession (and manage the use of diesel in the tunnels of course, which drives perceptions and not reality I might add.   Wait for it.)
skitz
Wait for it !!
I'm not going to disagree that pathing is a reliabity problem that requires some radical thinking.

When the Dandy and Sunbury services are removed from the Loop and FSS, then that gives an opportunity to re-thinking how all the lines work.

Radical thoughts.
Each line has a permanent path to use between Richmond and FSS and Loop
None of them cross
Platforms align with how the tracks work out
V/Line Gippsland terminates at FSS and has it's own platform

Of course the yard track cross overs remain in place for emergency re-routing, but these should be for extreme circumstance only and not done in the normal course.

cheers
John
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

dedicated tracks between Toorak Road & Southern Cross
Lockie91
Actually between Toorak Rd and Flinders St. The viaducts will still be fully used by Metro.

Come to think of it, why not have Gippsland trains terminate at Flinders? Isn't that what they used to do? Let VLine take over platforms 6+7.
  jakar Assistant Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
With the introduction of Turn up and Go, services on the Dandenong corridor will be fixed. Running time between Pakenham and South Yarra will be fixed. Dandenong to Toorak Road is 26km, this isn't a great distance. If running time can be pushed closer to 30 minutes between Dandenong and FFS this would not be much different to Bendigo commuters. (Sunbury - SSS)
Lockie91
How will turn up and go services 'fix' running times and get anywhere near 30 minutes?

why not have Gippsland trains terminate at Flinders? Isn't that what they used to do?
justarider
No and no. There is 1 AM service that terminates at Flinders St and the rest go through. It also would not work from an Op's point of view. A lesser service for Gippslander's is not a solution to anything.

Some smarty with the calculator worked out that something in the realm of an hour could be shaved off the running time with improvements to curves and track speed. Far out weighing the 20 or so minutes that could be saved between Dandenong and Flinders Street.
Lockie91
This is pure fantasy.
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last

why not have Gippsland trains terminate at Flinders? Isn't that what they used to do?
---justarider
No and no. There is 1 AM service that terminates at Flinders St and the rest go through. It also would not work from an Op's point of view. A lesser service for Gippslander's is not a solution to anything.
jakar
scuse me @jakar, not my quote. I did however fly the same kite in previous post as a radical thought.

Not as sure about your definition of "lesser service".
It's not like SCS is the destination of choice for most pax. It's somewhere you have to go, in order to change to some other transport to get to where you really want. FSS serves the same purpose, and in many cases does it better, more so with MM1.

"Ops point of view" is one of the issues to be planned, IF this idea were to get any support.

And thanks for your reply yesterday. The detail you provide really helps.

cheers
John
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
As someone who doesn’t live anywhere near this line, is there a reason why one track couldn’t have been left “at level crossing level” for use by V/Line?   The idea behind sky rail was to get rid of traffic snarls, but one train an hour zipping though at a good speed would not have inconvenienced the traffic any more than one set of traffic lights.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
As someone who doesn’t live anywhere near this line, is there a reason why one track couldn’t have been left “at level crossing level” for use by V/Line?   The idea behind sky rail was to get rid of traffic snarls, but one train an hour zipping though at a good speed would not have inconvenienced the traffic any more than one set of traffic lights.
Donald
The promised parkland from it...
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
As someone who doesn’t live anywhere near this line, is there a reason why one track couldn’t have been left “at level crossing level” for use by V/Line?   The idea behind sky rail was to get rid of traffic snarls, but one train an hour zipping though at a good speed would not have inconvenienced the traffic any more than one set of traffic lights.
The promised parkland from it...
Dangersdan707
Silly me!   I was going to put "except for a promise by politicians to get rid of LX".
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

As someone who doesn’t live anywhere near this line, is there a reason why one track couldn’t have been left “at level crossing level” for use by V/Line?   The idea behind sky rail was to get rid of traffic snarls, but one train an hour zipping though at a good speed would not have inconvenienced the traffic any more than one set of traffic lights.
The promised parkland from it...
Silly me!   I was going to put "except for a promise by politicians to get rid of LX".
Donald
Wash your mouth out with soap and water -  CORRECTION :

..................."  Dangerous and congested level crossings !!!"     ALL of them !!!
  david harvey Chief Train Controller

Location: Bairnsdale Wharf Line
As someone who doesn’t live anywhere near this line, is there a reason why one track couldn’t have been left “at level crossing level” for use by V/Line?   The idea behind sky rail was to get rid of traffic snarls, but one train an hour zipping though at a good speed would not have inconvenienced the traffic any more than one set of traffic lights.
The promised parkland from it...
Dangersdan707
Silly me!   I was going to put "except for a promise by politicians to get rid of LX".
"Donald"


AS a time traveller who catches the former Gippslander services from Bairnsdale on a regular basis, I am quite amazed to think that so many contributors have nearly come to E-blows over the Eastern District’s enigma code with is the Gippsland line time table.  I have been reading and the one word the was missing but it was Donald from  Donald that said word the P word " politicians"ing. It may be political that the Bairnsdale train stops at Garfield, strait out of National party heartland at Rosedale and then its SAS up the former down line into those swing marginal seats where those pesky little hamlets lie. A second class ride is better that a first class walk.
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

Don’t know why people are against a South Yarra/Caufield to Dandenong (possibly beyond) Quadriplication on the Pakenham and Cranbourne Lines. It is in everyone’s best interest to see this project go ahead in the future. It will greatly benefit Metro and regional passengers.

Yes the project may cost around 2-3 Billion using figures above what CD9 cost. But it will give Gippsland passengers finally a true dedicated track, removes delays and congestion, remove freight trains from the metro tracks and increase metro capacity given it does not have to factor in VLine timetabling.
  Big J Deputy Commissioner

Location: In Paradise
Don’t know why people are against a South Yarra/Caufield to Dandenong (possibly beyond) Quadriplication on the Pakenham and Cranbourne Lines. It is in everyone’s best interest to see this project go ahead in the future. It will greatly benefit Metro and regional passengers.

Yes the project may cost around 2-3 Billion using figures above what CD9 cost. But it will give Gippsland passengers finally a true dedicated track, removes delays and congestion, remove freight trains from the metro tracks and increase metro capacity given it does not have to factor in VLine timetabling.
ptvcommuter
May not be people are against it, but it might be what youu said in the second paragraph, $2-3B. With that sort of dollars it will need national funding.

That is a lot of tax payers money competing with national infrastructure. Fantastic idea, but where is it in national priority?

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