Melbourne Airport Rail Link

 
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last

We've had this discussion before methinks.

Haven't even got a shovel in the ground, you expect them to stump up for a second 16km line(tunnels and all).

Via Sunshine is guaranteed for MARL.  
The real question is how will the SRL line-share do a U turn at Sunshine off to Tarneit(ish).

cheers
John
justarider
Majority of the western section is greenfields, just like the RRL, so extremely cheap to build now and let the growth occur around it. The government has the chance to get ahead of the curve, but goes for the cheap and nasty because once the east has rail access to the airport, who cares about the 1m+ who live out west.

Why does the east get a 16km(?) tunnel yet the west can't even get a 16km stretch of track on open fields that would cost a fifth. Ridiculous.
"John.Z"

Yep, definitely had this conversion before.
"a 16km stretch of track on open fields" yes that statement is ridiculous. Between the Western Hwy and Carolyn (10km) is chocka full of little things called houses. The green bit between the Hwy and Airport stretches over a very deep gorge.
Defiitely tunnel and Aquaduct territory, nothing cheap here.

And really your East vs West is getting tiresome. A few Bill on RRL, Western Rail, Sunbury Upgrade says that somebodys do care.
If you don't think that a link from the Airport to CBD is justified, then just say so,  it has some merit why the chain has dragged so long.

cheers
John

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  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Via Sunshine is guaranteed for MARL.  
The real question is how will the SRL line-share do a U turn at Sunshine off to Tarneit(ish).

cheers
John
justarider

Maybe like this. Blue: Airport line, and Green: Suburban rail loop via Highpoint.

One way of solving the U-turn issue, but will require more tunnels in the west.

  LeroyW Junior Train Controller

Location: Awaiting MM2
I'm going to throw this in here, but it could just as easily go in the SRL thread.

There seems to be this assumption that SRL implies I can catch a single train from Werribee (or wherever) to Box Hill via the Airport: one continuously served loop.
Have people looked at the MARL strategic appraisal and other documentation that shows the alignment into the Airport? It's hard to see trains coming into the Airport from the city along the preferred route doing a giant dogleg under the terminals to get out to Broadmeadows again (same problem people are raising at Sunshine really). Would it not seem much more sensible that the Airport station is a terminus for trains from the city (ex Dandenong) AND a terminus for the East SRL from Cheltenham?

SRL is a loop of rail sure - you just need to change at Sunshine and then the Airport to get all the way around. Solves a whole raft of problems right?
  EmrldPhoenix Station Master

Location: Melbourne, VIC
I'm going to throw this in here, but it could just as easily go in the SRL thread.

There seems to be this assumption that SRL implies I can catch a single train from Werribee (or wherever) to Box Hill via the Airport: one continuously served loop.
Have people looked at the MARL strategic appraisal and other documentation that shows the alignment into the Airport? It's hard to see trains coming into the Airport from the city along the preferred route doing a giant dogleg under the terminals to get out to Broadmeadows again (same problem people are raising at Sunshine really). Would it not seem much more sensible that the Airport station is a terminus for trains from the city (ex Dandenong) AND a terminus for the East SRL from Cheltenham?

SRL is a loop of rail sure - you just need to change at Sunshine and then the Airport to get all the way around. Solves a whole raft of problems right?
LeroyW

An alternative path for SRL West is to push it out from the Airport to Sydenham and Caroline Springs before connecting with RRL.

I don't expect this to happen especially as it bypasses Sunshine, but it may be worth considering when the SRL eventually makes its way round west after another 10-15 years of growth. Best to not get too attached to any one plan for a project that isn't going to start for at least 10 years.
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
I'm going to throw this in here, but it could just as easily go in the SRL thread.

There seems to be this assumption that SRL implies I can catch a single train from Werribee (or wherever) to Box Hill via the Airport: one continuously served loop.
Have people looked at the MARL strategic appraisal and other documentation that shows the alignment into the Airport? It's hard to see trains coming into the Airport from the city along the preferred route doing a giant dogleg under the terminals to get out to Broadmeadows again (same problem people are raising at Sunshine really). Would it not seem much more sensible that the Airport station is a terminus for trains from the city (ex Dandenong) AND a terminus for the East SRL from Cheltenham?

SRL is a loop of rail sure - you just need to change at Sunshine and then the Airport to get all the way around. Solves a whole raft of problems right?
"LeroyW"

Since we are now throwing things out there!!!

The "dogleg" at the airport needn't be that drastic, a sweeping curve of about 1km radius should do it.

At Sunshine the problem is much more accute. It's really a reverse of direction.
Soooo, lets go with that and reverse the train. Not unheard of, UK especially, just rare in Aus.

Couple of "minor" issues to be solved. It needs to operate seamlessly as a normal sub-minute station stop.
Means
A couple of dedicated, dead end platforms (where to fit at Sunshine? underneath?)
Very quick driver change, or driverless train. Both contentious to say the least.

Yeah. Out there.

cheers
John
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Is it really true the airport line is being scrapped by the government in favour of another approach 2 decades away ?
  chomper Junior Train Controller

Is it really true the airport line is being scrapped by the government in favour of another approach 2 decades away ?
freightgate
Nothing official yet, the conversation I heard was that due to the current beer virus crisis, the money allocated to the MARL could be better used on the SRL. What was also mentioned was that the SRL west of the airport was being "redesigned" as a result of this new money, with the idea to cover more of the western suburbs like Taylors Lakes and Caroline Springs.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Is it really true the airport line is being scrapped by the government in favour of another approach 2 decades away ?
Nothing official yet, the conversation I heard was that due to the current beer virus crisis, the money allocated to the MARL could be better used on the SRL. What was also mentioned was that the SRL west of the airport was being "redesigned" as a result of this new money, with the idea to cover more of the western suburbs like Taylors Lakes and Caroline Springs.
chomper
That actually makes a lot of sense IMO.  I'm thinking a path along Kororoit Creek for some of the track.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Nothing official yet, the conversation I heard was that due to the current beer virus crisis, the money allocated to the MARL could be better used on the SRL. What was also mentioned was that the SRL west of the airport was being "redesigned" as a result of this new money, with the idea to cover more of the western suburbs like Taylors Lakes and Caroline Springs.
chomper

I cannot believe what I am reading.  We are 5 years into announcements it will happen and we now don't have an agreed design?
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner


I cannot believe what I am reading.  We are 5 years into announcements it will happen and we now don't have an agreed design?
bevans
The eastern section is locked in, but as usual the west is an after thought so they just chucked some lines on a map without properly thinking.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia

I cannot believe what I am reading.  We are 5 years into announcements it will happen and we now don't have an agreed design?The eastern section is locked in, but as usual the west is an after thought so they just chucked some lines on a map without properly thinking.
John.Z

Hi John what is the eastern section?
  John E Locomotive Fireman

It would be political suicide for the Andrews Government to drastically change the design of the airport rail link right now e.g. via Taylors Lakes and Caroline Springs - that's a long way to come from the eastern suburbs or city to get to the airport if that was the only option .
  John E Locomotive Fireman

Bevans - John is referring to the eastern section of the suburban rail loop from Cheltenham to Box Hill and ultimately to the airport. Obviously the East and South eastern suburbs population is big enough to justify the route chosen, however the West is not at this point to take a wide berth via Caroline Springs, which is why it makes sense to leave MARL going via Sunshine. Geographically it is more central to the West's population in the near future and it offers more connections, plus the city (hopefully).

I think SRL taking a wider berth via Watergardens,  Caroline Spings and Tarneit could work one day but the population isn't anywhere near big enough to support wnd justify the build cost now or in 10 years time- maybe in 30 years time the population will be big enough. This shouldn't stop the MARL going via Sunshine in my opinion.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Norda Fittazroy
I've heard that they're going to shut down the airport entirely because organising transport to it is just too difficult.
  slowcoach Junior Train Controller

Bevans - John is referring to the eastern section of the suburban rail loop from Cheltenham to Box Hill and ultimately to the airport. Obviously the East and South eastern suburbs population is big enough to justify the route chosen, however the West is not at this point to take a wide berth via Caroline Springs, which is why it makes sense to leave MARL going via Sunshine. Geographically it is more central to the West's population in the near future and it offers more connections, plus the city (hopefully).

I think SRL taking a wider berth via Watergardens,  Caroline Spings and Tarneit could work one day but the population isn't anywhere near big enough to support wnd justify the build cost now or in 10 years time- maybe in 30 years time the population will be big enough. This shouldn't stop the MARL going via Sunshine in my opinion.
John E
I was just wondering, where will the trains for the eastern & south eastern section of SRL be stabled above ground?
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

Bevans - John is referring to the eastern section of the suburban rail loop from Cheltenham to Box Hill and ultimately to the airport. Obviously the East and South eastern suburbs population is big enough to justify the route chosen, however the West is not at this point to take a wide berth via Caroline Springs, which is why it makes sense to leave MARL going via Sunshine. Geographically it is more central to the West's population in the near future and it offers more connections, plus the city (hopefully).

I think SRL taking a wider berth via Watergardens,  Caroline Spings and Tarneit could work one day but the population isn't anywhere near big enough to support wnd justify the build cost now or in 10 years time- maybe in 30 years time the population will be big enough. This shouldn't stop the MARL going via Sunshine in my opinion.
John E
OFC the MARL should go via Sunshine, it's a semi-direct route that's cost sensible. The MARL shouldn't be the SRL though. It should be the first step in removing Bendigo and Seymour services from Metro tracks.

The western section of the SRL isn't planned to be comissioned before 2050 (that 2050 date they put out is for the western section). So yes, they should be planning RIGHT NOW to make it useful not for today, but for 2050 and beyond. Which means, like out east, building it to a wide berth such that it's useful for middle and outer ring suburbs to move radially around the city.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner


Hi John what is the eastern section?
bevans
Sorry I should've been more clear:

I think that making the MARL apart of the SRL is a poor choice. The MARL should be regional services to Bendigo/Seymour stopping at Sunshine.

The SRL should be medium rail (light-heavy) automatic trains. The eastern section is planned to be built first. The western section planned to be ready in 2050. In 2050, there'll be a heap of infill in that Tarneit - Mt Cottrell - Caroline Springs area, so I was saying that I think the SRL should plan to serve these areas between the airport and Tarneit station, re-joining the RRL along the section perpendicular to Caroline Springs Station.

  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last

Hi John what is the eastern section?
bevans
Sorry I should've been more clear:

I think that making the MARL apart of the SRL is a poor choice. The MARL should be regional services to Bendigo/Seymour stopping at Sunshine.

The SRL should be medium rail (light-heavy) automatic trains. The eastern section is planned to be built first. The western section planned to be ready in 2050. In 2050, there'll be a heap of infill in that Tarneit - Mt Cottrell - Caroline Springs area, so I was saying that I think the SRL should plan to serve these areas between the airport and Tarneit station, re-joining the RRL along the section perpendicular
"John.Z"

@John.Z
Sharing between MARL and SRL may well be a poor 2nd choice,  but it all comes down to cost.
SRL priced at $50B all up is very tight and will need to make hard choices about efficient use.

Waiting until 2050 for your ideal is not going to be acceptable.
The pressure is on for Wyndham Vale and Melton now, which has been rolled into the MARL business case. How far those plans go in delivery will be interesting.

Bendigo and Seymour(SG) are all capable of Sunshine stopping now. Just hasn't been any appetite yet. Even Seymour BG could go via Albion to relieve the Metro, but no takers so far.

cheers
John
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner


@John.Z
Sharing between MARL and SRL may well be a poor 2nd choice,  but it all comes down to cost.
SRL priced at $50B all up is very tight and will need to make hard choices about efficient use.

Waiting until 2050 for your ideal is not going to be acceptable.
The pressure is on for Wyndham Vale and Melton now, which has been rolled into the MARL business case. How far those plans go in delivery will be interesting.

Bendigo and Seymour(SG) are all capable of Sunshine stopping now. Just hasn't been any appetite yet. Even Seymour BG could go via Albion to relieve the Metro, but no takers so far.

cheers
John
justarider
Melton will and would stay on the Metro tunnel.

WV can be electrified, initially via Metro tunnel. As paths are needed, can be converted to SRL approaching 2050 like the Bankstown conversion in Sydney. What's done now need not lock in stone for 100 years.

Im not talking about stopping Bendigo and Seymour trains at Sunshine right now. I'm talking about routing them Sunshine - Airport - Gisborne/Wallan as a stopping pattern, with MARL trains running in between.
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller


@John.Z
Sharing between MARL and SRL may well be a poor 2nd choice,  but it all comes down to cost.
SRL priced at $50B all up is very tight and will need to make hard choices about efficient use.

Waiting until 2050 for your ideal is not going to be acceptable.
The pressure is on for Wyndham Vale and Melton now, which has been rolled into the MARL business case. How far those plans go in delivery will be interesting.

Bendigo and Seymour(SG) are all capable of Sunshine stopping now. Just hasn't been any appetite yet. Even Seymour BG could go via Albion to relieve the Metro, but no takers so far.

cheers
JohnMelton will and would stay on the Metro tunnel.

WV can be electrified, initially via Metro tunnel. As paths are needed, can be converted to SRL approaching 2050 like the Bankstown conversion in Sydney. What's done now need not lock in stone for 100 years.

Im not talking about stopping Bendigo and Seymour trains at Sunshine right now. I'm talking about routing them Sunshine - Airport - Gisborne/Wallan as a stopping pattern, with MARL trains running in between.
John.Z
Agree that Regionals should be using the track capacity that will be available thanks to MARL. If we put aside the major issue between the city and Sunshine for the moment. The new track between the Sunshine and the Airport will only be used by 3TPH, not really bang for your buck. If Bendigo & Seymour get added, that brings it up to 9TPH. Airport to Wallan & Gisborne is all Greenfields. You could build both connections for a billion.

Rail Projects Victoria, as with many others, have already said there will not be enough capacity in MM1 for Sunbury, Melton & WV. One is going to miss out. If you spark and run WV services via RRL, we've got mixed traffic again with Geelong and Ballarat taking up paths for WV.

Unless the government grows a set and does it all properly someone is going to miss out. WV or Melton end up with substandard services waiting another 10 years. Airport get shoved into MM1 takes up TPH for Sunbury. Melton gets put in, its a balancing act of capacity as population grows in both corridors.

For the $17 Billion that is currently on the table from all parties the state could revolutionise public transport for not only the western suburbs but western Victoria. Let Airtrain have there tunnel, they are paying for it and they will suck airport commuters dry for decades. Who cares. Government gets a shinny brand new tunnel. The rest of the money could be used to build the regional connections to Wallan and Gisborne, Quad Melton to Sunshine and spark it, Quad to WV to keep Geelong seperate from the sparked RRL. Melton & WV have growth for decades. Regional services are 100% separated from Metro traffic no conflicts, DOT/PTV can ramp up capacity as needed over the next 30 years.
  Tii Beginner


@John.Z
Sharing between MARL and SRL may well be a poor 2nd choice,  but it all comes down to cost.
SRL priced at $50B all up is very tight and will need to make hard choices about efficient use.

Waiting until 2050 for your ideal is not going to be acceptable.
The pressure is on for Wyndham Vale and Melton now, which has been rolled into the MARL business case. How far those plans go in delivery will be interesting.

Bendigo and Seymour(SG) are all capable of Sunshine stopping now. Just hasn't been any appetite yet. Even Seymour BG could go via Albion to relieve the Metro, but no takers so far.

cheers
JohnMelton will and would stay on the Metro tunnel.

WV can be electrified, initially via Metro tunnel. As paths are needed, can be converted to SRL approaching 2050 like the Bankstown conversion in Sydney. What's done now need not lock in stone for 100 years.

Im not talking about stopping Bendigo and Seymour trains at Sunshine right now. I'm talking about routing them Sunshine - Airport - Gisborne/Wallan as a stopping pattern, with MARL trains running in between.Agree that Regionals should be using the track capacity that will be available thanks to MARL. If we put aside the major issue between the city and Sunshine for the moment. The new track between the Sunshine and the Airport will only be used by 3TPH, not really bang for your buck. If Bendigo & Seymour get added, that brings it up to 9TPH. Airport to Wallan & Gisborne is all Greenfields. You could build both connections for a billion.

Rail Projects Victoria, as with many others, have already said there will not be enough capacity in MM1 for Sunbury, Melton & WV. One is going to miss out. If you spark and run WV services via RRL, we've got mixed traffic again with Geelong and Ballarat taking up paths for WV.

Unless the government grows a set and does it all properly someone is going to miss out. WV or Melton end up with substandard services waiting another 10 years. Airport get shoved into MM1 takes up TPH for Sunbury. Melton gets put in, its a balancing act of capacity as population grows in both corridors.

For the $17 Billion that is currently on the table from all parties the state could revolutionise public transport for not only the western suburbs but western Victoria. Let Airtrain have there tunnel, they are paying for it and they will suck airport commuters dry for decades. Who cares. Government gets a shinny brand new tunnel. The rest of the money could be used to build the regional connections to Wallan and Gisborne, Quad Melton to Sunshine and spark it, Quad to WV to keep Geelong seperate from the sparked RRL. Melton & WV have growth for decades. Regional services are 100% separated from Metro traffic no conflicts, DOT/PTV can ramp up capacity as needed over the next 30 years.
Lockie91
The congestion from Sunshine to City sounds like the rate limiting step.  Growing up in Brooklyn, I often wondered why the DG freight line from Sunshine to Newport isn't modified to take metro trains. If the tunnel suggested as part of Metro 2 from Newport to Fishermens bend to SXS and beyond were to go ahead, could the sparked Melton trains eventually go that way or perhaps some airport services leaving the existing RRL services as is? Just a thought with no particular insight.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Norda Fittazroy
I reckon we should hold an "Airport Rail Party" when this thread reaches 50 pages, still with nobody any the wiser about what's actually going to happen.Very Happy
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
I reckon we should hold an "Airport Rail Party" when this thread reaches 50 pages, still with nobody any the wiser about what's actually going to happen.Very Happy
Valvegear
better start posting then! I'll be the DJ Razz
  trainbrain Chief Commissioner

I reckon we should hold an "Airport Rail Party" when this thread reaches 50 pages, still with nobody any the wiser about what's actually going to happen.Very Happy
better start posting then! I'll be the DJ Razz
Dangersdan707
and don't forget to keep your social distancing,   especially when I drop my guts................(fart)............whoooooooo  something is in the air....................
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Norda Fittazroy
and don't forget to keep your social distancing,   especially when I drop my guts................(fart)............whoooooooo  something is in the air....................
"trainbrain"
Yes; it's called a south-arstely breeze.

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