Filming at Sydney Trains Stations

 
  AheadMatthewawsome Junior Train Controller

Location: Opening Train Lines
2 weeks ago, I was filming Trains and Buses at Chatswood Station. Because I am making a Youtube series that I have not made called “Sydney during the pandemic”. Which shows people what Sydney was like during the pandemic, and other events that are happening right now. Then when I pointed the camera down the platform, you could hear an “OI!”. Then my carer, who you could hear on the video said “She told you to stop recording”. Then right at 4 minutes of recording, I stoped and saw a Staff Member walking up very fast to me. Looking like she was going to touch me, or take away my phone. My carer told her to stop, and she stop. But it was too late for my mental heath. There was a kid at School who used to try and kill me everyday. And it reminded me of him. I was then shaking in the back of the platform, terrified of what just happened. There have been staff member’s before who have misunderstood me. Like the time that Heritage Train Guard had a problem with my waving hello to my dog, as the train was going right past me house. And the time when the Guard humiliated me in front of the whole train, just for helping people out, and moving the seats when I was 9. But never has anybody had a problem with me recording. If they asked politely not to record them. All done, I would blur it out if they were not part of the main situation. If they were, it would not be released to the public! There are no signs telling people that they can’t record. Nor does anybody except this lady even enforce it! Is there some sort of rule about filming? If there is, what is it? And what should I do next time. As it has almost made me disinterested in filming again!

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  viaprojects Chief Train Controller

Is there some sort of rule about filming? If there is, what is it?
AheadMatthewawsome


there are rules for public areas .. first one - you cannot film around children .. and you don't film people .. if the police are called there will be a few issues .. some stations on the network are easy for pictures but if you have not asked it can be a problem..

pictures at events are ok ..  

would put one issue on the table - if you do it for a commercial type process you will need a permit .. even on public land and are require to post a notice..
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
And what should I do next time.
AheadMatthewawsome
Ask permission like everybody else. Being a vlogger does not exempt you from the rules. That simple.
  DCook Chief Train Controller

Location: The standard state
Below are several tips that I would suggest
1. Film at the ends of platforms, this keeps you away from other people and lowers the risk of filming someone
2. Ask permission, near the ticket gates there should be someone and ask them if you can film, most of the time they will say yes
3. Let platform staff know that you have a medical condition, they will not run or yell at you if they know that you are on the spectrum
Hope this helps
  sydneyshortnorth Train Controller

Location: On the 1 in 40.
You can read Sydney Trains' own official guidelines for filming and photography by amateurs, hobbyists and students here:    

https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/sydneytrains/community/filming

The same page also has a link to the more specific requirements that apply to professional/commercial work.

Steve
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
Is there some sort of rule about filming? If there is, what is it?
there are rules for public areas .. first one - you cannot film around children
viaprojects
Absolute bollocks. You can film pretty much anything and everyone you can see if you are in a public space, with a couple of very specific exemptions, defence establishments being one. Note though, train stations while publicly accessible are not public spaces.

.. and you don't film people ..
viaprojects
More bollocks. There is no expectation of privacy in public. If I am out and about with my camera, and you're nearby, there's a chance you'll be photographed.  If I'm down the beach on my RDO taking photos and you're kid is there too, so be it. I'm not there to photograph your kid, but it isn't illegal to do so.

As a Driver I have no problem with people taking photos of my train, even highly detailed ones, or through the cab window - so long as you don't get me picking my nose, anything you can see from a platform, gate or overpass is fair game. But many other staff don't feel the same, and can get uneasy about it. Insofar as your experience AheadMatthewAwesome, look over the Sydney Trains photography guidelines that have been posted and abide by them. Plan what you want to film from the station ahead of time, and call the SM beforehand or when you arrive, ask for permission to film Here> ^There and a couple of still photos over >>there to finish off (for example...) and you should be able to avoid any confrontations in future.
  DCook Chief Train Controller

Location: The standard state
One thing that I must stress is do not call up the station in question, half the time the message does not get to the staff due to shift changes. It is a better idea to talk to the station staff in person as the message will certainly get through and the staff can do more to accommodate special needs
  viaprojects Chief Train Controller

Is there some sort of rule about filming? If there is, what is it?
there are rules for public areas .. first one - you cannot film around children
Absolute bollocks. You can film pretty much anything and everyone you can see if you are in a public space, with a couple of very specific exemptions, defence establishments being one. Note though, train stations while publicly accessible are not public spaces.

.. and you don't film people ..
More bollocks. There is no expectation of privacy in public. If I am out and about with my camera, and you're nearby, there's a chance you'll be photographed.  If I'm down the beach on my RDO taking photos and you're kid is there too, so be it. I'm not there to photograph your kid, but it isn't illegal to do so.

KRviator


as a mod on a web site .. you should know about the - Privacy Act 1988 (Cth). and more about posting online ..

https://aifs.gov.au/cfca/publications/images-children-and-young-people-online
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
as a mod on a web site .. you should know about the - Privacy Act 1988 (Cth). and more about posting online ..

https://aifs.gov.au/cfca/publications/images-children-and-young-people-online
viaprojects
Indeed I do. But it is apparent you do not...from the very website you linked to:

Privacy laws
There are Commonwealth privacy laws relevant to the unauthorised production and publication of a person's image through the Privacy Act 1988 (Cth). These laws regulate the publication of personal information that conveys the identity of a person or allows their identity to be determined. Under the Privacy Act 1988 (Cth)section6, "personal information" refers to:

Information or an opinion (including information or an opinion forming part of a database), whether true or not, and whether recorded in a material form or not, about an individual whose identity is apparent, or can reasonably be ascertained, from the information or opinion.

This means images of children that would enable them to be identified - for example, in a school uniform, outside their house, or showing their name - should not be published on the Internet without the consent of both the child and their parent or guardian. Establishing protocols for obtaining parental/guardian and child consent is good practice regardless of whether or not images contain identifying information about the child or young person.
aifs.gov.au
See that bold bit? Where it says information in photos would need to include identifying particulars about the child?

But you know what else is interesting about the Privacy Act (1998)? For the most part, it doesn't cover individuals when they are acting in the capacity of a private individual.

Who doesn’t have responsibilities under the Privacy Act?
The Privacy Act does not cover:

* state or territory government agencies, including a state and territory public hospital or health care facility (which is covered under state and territory legislation) except:
* certain acts and practices related to My Health Records and individual healthcare identifiers
* an entity prescribed by the Privacy Regulation 2013
* an individual acting in their own capacity, including your neighbours
* a university, other than a private university and the Australian National University
* a public school
* in some situations, the handling of employee records by an organisation in relation to current and former employment relationships
* a small business operator, unless an exception applies (see above)
* a media organisation acting in the course of journalism if the organisation is publicly committed to observing published privacy standards
* registered political parties and political representatives
Source
The OAIC
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

here is a novel idea, research before action, 30 seconds on google bought this up, others have already posted re the privacy act etc.

why sort of mental health problem would cause you to get upset?  

Follow the rules, it might make life easier for you?



hhttps://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/sydneytrains/community/filming
  viaprojects Chief Train Controller

See that bold bit? Where it says information in photos would need to include identifying particulars about the child?
KRviator


easy to do for most transport locations with a time stamp or a clock in the picture ..




* an individual acting in their own capacity, including your neighbours


you cannot apply the act on yourself ..
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
See that bold bit? Where it says information in photos would need to include identifying particulars about the child?


easy to do for most transport locations with a time stamp or a clock in the picture ..
viaprojects
The details of the photo need to identify the child. A clock/timestamp does nothing apart from show you took a photo of someone at that time. Keep digging...

* an individual acting in their own capacity, including your neighbours
you cannot apply the act on yourself ..
viaprojects
That makes absolutely no sense.

Since you don't believe me, maybe you might like to see what other people think, including the ABC, solicitors, et al...

ABC Story: What the law says about a stranger taking a photo of your child without permission.

Macrossan & Amiet solicitors: Can a stranger take a photo of my child without my permission?.

The Australian Law Reform Commision article on the subject which states, in part:
The Privacy Act protects personal information that is held, or collected for inclusion, in a ‘record’. A ‘record’is defined to include a photograph or other pictorial representation of a person. If an individual’s identity is apparent, or can reasonably be ascertained, from a photograph or other image, then the collection, use and disclosure of that image is covered by the Privacy Act. This extends to video images as well as still photographs. The rest of this chapter uses the term ‘image’ to cover photographs and moving images. All of the privacy principles applicable to the collection and use and disclosure of personal information also will apply to the taking and publication of images.

As with other forms of personal information, the coverage of images is limited by the scope of the Privacy Act. For example, an image is not covered by the Privacy Act if it was taken by an individual who is acting in their private capacity.
The ALRC


The Arts Law center article on the subject also says, in part:
Photographing people
There are no publicity or personality rights in Australia, and there is no right to privacy that protects a person’s image. However a person’s image can constitute ‘personal information’ under the Privacy Act 1988 (Cth) with the consequence that there are circumstances in which businesses and agencies subject to that Act may breach the law by publishing a person’s image.
  neillfarmer Chief Train Controller

Hi Mathew. Nearly every serious railway photographer has had an experience like you have had, although because we don't have a disability it has not affected us as much as it has you. My most annoying experience was when a person telephoned the police that I was taking photos of school children when I was 2 kilometers up a dirt road from the school (Grantham in Queensland). I was nice to the two officers who in turn were nice to me. I showed them what I had photographed and they apologized for bothering me and left.
Back to stations. If I am going to be obvious in my filming I always seek permission from the station staff at the time, telling them what I am doing. 9 times out of 10 they not only say ok, all good, but look up on their computer and tell me where the train I am after is.
If what I'm doing will only take a second or two and I am not waiting any length of time I just get the shot and go. That might be difficult for you to do.
Don't give up. What you are doing is important for future people to know what it was like. What you are doing is important. I would in future just ask nicely if you can and hopefully they will be nice back to you.
Cheers.
  AheadMatthewawsome Junior Train Controller

Location: Opening Train Lines
here is a novel idea, research before action, 30 seconds on google bought this up, others have already posted re the privacy act etc.

why sort of mental health problem would cause you to get upset?  

Follow the rules, it might make life easier for you?



hhttps://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/sydneytrains/community/filming
theanimal
PTSD and Autism. That should be the answer for you. For everyday for 18 months at school, there was a kid at school. Who, would even see a little bit of me. Would say "I AM GOING TO ******* KILL YOU!". And would try to tackle me down and try to chock me to death. When she was walking up to be and screaming at me across the station. It caused something called fight or flight. There were no signs, nor announcements about filming. And nobody enforced it until that lady at Chatswood did. The only person that I know who had this trouble until now was leokimvideo. Back in 2014, he got kicked out for "Suspicious Activity". For looking strange, and looking and filming the infrastructure and trains at Lindfield station. If anybody had a problem with being filmed, I would have blurred them just like that when it gets released to the public.
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

PTSD and Autism. That should be the answer for you. For everyday for 18 months at school, there was a kid at school. Who, would even see a little bit of me. Would say "I AM GOING TO ******* KILL YOU!". And would try to tackle me down and try to chock me to death. When she was walking up to be and screaming at me across the station. It caused something called fight or flight. There were no signs, nor announcements about filming. And nobody enforced it until that lady at Chatswood did. The only person that I know who had this trouble until now was leokimvideo. Back in 2014, he got kicked out for "Suspicious Activity". For looking strange, and looking and filming the infrastructure and trains at Lindfield station. If anybody had a problem with being filmed, I would have blurred them just like that when it gets released to the public.
AheadMatthewawsome
You are, it seems a young person? what is your claim to have PTSD based on? I find it difficult to understand how you have seen enough dreadful things that you are affected? if you are basing it on being yelled at in the school, then you seriously need to harden up.

When you say there are no signs or announcements, were there signs telling you that you have to remain fully dressed? are there signs that say you must not access the lines?

Surely there is an implicit contract that you follow the laws.

Unfortunately your sad story sounds like the usual bleat from the younger generation. life is not all goodness and light.
  AheadMatthewawsome Junior Train Controller

Location: Opening Train Lines
PTSD and Autism. That should be the answer for you. For everyday for 18 months at school, there was a kid at school. Who, would even see a little bit of me. Would say "I AM GOING TO ******* KILL YOU!". And would try to tackle me down and try to chock me to death. When she was walking up to be and screaming at me across the station. It caused something called fight or flight. There were no signs, nor announcements about filming. And nobody enforced it until that lady at Chatswood did. The only person that I know who had this trouble until now was leokimvideo. Back in 2014, he got kicked out for "Suspicious Activity". For looking strange, and looking and filming the infrastructure and trains at Lindfield station. If anybody had a problem with being filmed, I would have blurred them just like that when it gets released to the public.
You are, it seems a young person? what is your claim to have PTSD based on? I find it difficult to understand how you have seen enough dreadful things that you are affected? if you are basing it on being yelled at in the school, then you seriously need to harden up.

When you say there are no signs or announcements, were there signs telling you that you have to remain fully dressed? are there signs that say you must not access the lines?

Surely there is an implicit contract that you follow the laws.

Unfortunately your sad story sounds like the usual bleat from the younger generation. life is not all goodness and light.
theanimal
I really should not need to show you my medical files. If you are wanting me to do that, it is a no. And would be a breach of privacy. There are no signs nor announcements saying either "You can't film at any Sydney Trains Property" Nor "You need permission to film at any Sydney Trains Property Go to (website name) or ring (phone number) to get permission.". That is what is needed on the network so everyone knows what to do. So people do not need to have those confrontation on the network again. I know about that life is not always goodness and light, I have gone though that already. Lots of people from my generation that already know that. Because lots of younger people have been though new ways to harm them. And more younger people are financially worse off than older generations. People once said what you are saying to younger generations who are now older generations. And some people are clearly forgetting it. Take it with a grain of salt if you wish. But if you see somebody who is in a mental breakdown at somewhere like Chatswood, have a second think about it then? Case closed
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

I really should not need to show you my medical files. If you are wanting me to do that, it is a no. And would be a breach of privacy. There are no signs nor announcements saying either "You can't film at any Sydney Trains Property" Nor "You need permission to film at any Sydney Trains Property
I really should not need to show you my medical files. If you are wanting me to do that, it is a no. And would be a breach of privacy. There are no signs nor announcements saying either "You can't film at any Sydney Trains Property" Nor "You need permission to film at any Sydney Trains Property Go to (website name) or ring (phone number) to get permission.". That is what is needed on the network so everyone knows what to do. So people do not need to have those confrontation on the network again. I know about that life is not always goodness and light, I have gone though that already. Lots of people from my generation that already know that. Because lots of younger people have been though new ways to harm them. And more younger people are financially worse off than older generations. People once said what you are saying to younger generations who are now older generations. And some people are clearly forgetting it. Take it with a grain of salt if you wish. But if you see somebody who is in a mental breakdown at somewhere like Chatswood, have a second think about it then? Case closed
AheadMatthewawsome
I have not asked for, and have no desire to see your medical records. Not unless they stop putting writing on the packet of bathroom deoderisor.

I thought i had said it earlier, but you obviously did not understand. There are thousands of rules and restrictions - are you seriously saying that we need announcements for them all? the "stand clear doors closing" makes a vein throb in my forehead as it is.

Perhaps you could come up with a script for all the announcements we need to help you live within the confines of the legal system? It could start:
1.  no coughing
2. do not excrete on the platform
3.  no begging
4. do not throw objects at the train or other passengers
5.  etc etc,

can you seriously not see that is the path to madness, if you function in society then there is a requirement that you learn and follow the rules?

You say that you have gone through " the world is goodness and light" pray tell me what things you have done that fullful this requirement? I started in rail nearly 50 years ago, have attended in excess of 20 fatalities, yet you feel your generation already know that? how, they have never been to war, live with a good social support networki, with health care etc?

You say the younger generation are worse off financially than the older generation? is this because of the "me" generation? what have you done without in your short unhappy life?

if being told that you should not take photos can drive you to a mental breakdown, well thank christ I am not relying on you to fight bushfires or deal with a war situation.
  AheadMatthewawsome Junior Train Controller

Location: Opening Train Lines
Well, people need to be aware of the rules, and if there is nobody telling you it is there. And then somebody screams across the station and tries to touch you about it. That is not on. There needs to be signs about it, as not everyone understands them if you don’t tell them. There are lots of people who English is not their first language, and might not understand what it says. And there are lots of people who don’t understand because of cultural differences. And there are lots who’s brain works differently and process the world differently. The young generations at the moment are considered Millennials and Post Millennials. The oldest millennials are now 35. And have lived though lots. Lots of them have gone to war, like the Iraq War, and have been changed. If you don’t have respect for them. What kind of person are you? I have respect of your 50 years of Railway experience, and I respect you for going though and making it through the deaths of those 22 individuals. But you have to give that respect back. I have only been around 13 years, you have been around for over 50 years! You can’t judge somebody of who they are when they are 13. You have to give them time and chances. Now, what I said about the medical ID’s is because other suspicious individuals have attempted to get me my medical ID’s to prove my disability and mental heath. And this time, I hope it is just a misunderstanding. And for that, I apologise for the misunderstandings. I just can’t give out any proof of my disability and mental heath. It is just common sense, as it is private.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Then when I pointed the camera down the platform, you could hear an “OI!”. Then my carer, who you could hear on the video said “She told you to stop recording”. Then right at 4 minutes of recording, I stoped and saw a Staff Member walking up very fast to me. Looking like she was going to touch me, or take away my phone.
AheadMatthewawsome
Why did you continue recording after the first time you were ordered to stop?

Most public transport systems have government legislation/regulations which establish that patrons must obey instructions from staff, so you may have committed an offence by ignoring the first order and continuing to record.

Can you understand that ignoring their order might have made them suspicious of your behaviour and caused them to feel they needed to come up to you and repeat the order a little more directly?

My advice going forward would be similar to that given by others up the thread - identify yourself to staff when you arrive and politely ask permission before filming, comply with any requests they make of you (e.g. don't stand in this area which is a busy passageway, leave before peak time, etc) and remember that you are a guest if you are not using the station as a passenger intending to travel.
  AheadMatthewawsome Junior Train Controller

Location: Opening Train Lines
Then when I pointed the camera down the platform, you could hear an “OI!”. Then my carer, who you could hear on the video said “She told you to stop recording”. Then right at 4 minutes of recording, I stopped and saw a Staff Member walking up very fast to me. Looking like she was going to touch me, or take away my phone.
Why did you continue recording after the first time you were ordered to stop?

Most public transport systems have government legislation/regulations which establish that patrons must obey instructions from staff, so you may have committed an offence by ignoring the first order and continuing to record.

Can you understand that ignoring their order might have made them suspicious of your behaviour and caused them to feel they needed to come up to you and repeat the order a little more directly?

My advice going forward would be similar to that given by others up the thread - identify yourself to staff when you arrive and politely ask permission before filming, comply with any requests they make of you (e.g. don't stand in this area which is a busy passageway, leave before peak time, etc) and remember that you are a guest if you are not using the station as a passenger intending to travel.
justapassenger
It was 10 seconds before the 4 minute mark when I heard the "OI!". And I stopped like that. It was not like I purposely tried to ignore the staff member and kept recording.
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
Wow. Just wow.

I'll say it again for those in the back: Being a vlogger does not exempt you from the rules. All I'm seeing here is someone who's failed to use their common sense and is now bickering on a web board for rail people thinking he has the moral high ground. It's almost hilarious, but almost definitely really sad.

PTSD and Autism. That should be the answer for you.
"AheadMatthewawsome"


Again: Wow. As someone who has made his diagnosis public on this board previously, about when I was your age, I am shocked and appalled by you, Matthew. To claim you have Autism is one thing -- You probably do -- but then to use it as an excuse... my god. Being Autistic also does not exempt you from the rules. I would have thought that you'd do everything in your power to not cause a problem to rail staff. Instead, you completely ignored them. And for what? 20-odd views on YouTube?

For everyday for 18 months at school, there was a kid at school. Who, would even see a little bit of me. Would say "I AM GOING TO ******* KILL YOU!".
AheadMatthewawsome


Oh, we're going down that path, are we? Great, OK, I was sexually assaulted in the boys toilets at school. Pull the other one, Matthew. I have it worse than you, and I still know how to get rail staff on-side.

There were no signs, nor announcements about filming. And nobody enforced it until that lady at Chatswood did.
AheadMatthewawsome


Some rail staff don't care, you're right -- others do. It's really a good idea to just... you know... tell them what you're doing. It's for your safety as well, because if the station gets evacuated, for example - they need to know you're there.

If anybody had a problem with being filmed, I would have blurred them just like that when it gets released to the public.
AheadMatthewawsome


If you'd have filmed me, I'd have made you delete the video. You don't magically have a right to post your video anywhere.

You are, it seems a young person? what is your claim to have PTSD based on? I find it difficult to understand how you have seen enough dreadful things that you are affected? if you are basing it on being yelled at in the school, then you seriously need to harden up.
theanimal


Pretty much this - Again, Matthew, people have it worse than you. Take a concrete mixer of cement. People don't give enough of a crap about you for this to be personal.

I really should not need to show you my medical files. If you are wanting me to do that, it is a no. And would be a breach of privacy.
AheadMatthewawsome


That's a very long bow to draw. theanimal was not asking for your medical records, but how it is you claim to have PTSD. I can assure you, we don't care about your medical records.

There are no signs nor announcements saying either "You can't film at any Sydney Trains Property" Nor "You need permission to film at any Sydney Trains Property Go to (website name) or ring (phone number) to get permission."
AheadMatthewawsome


That's the amazing thing about rules regarding common sense. People know where to find the information or just don't do it.

Take it with a grain of salt if you wish. But if you see somebody who is in a mental breakdown at somewhere like Chatswood, have a second think about it then? Case closed
AheadMatthewawsome


Do you even know what a mental breakdown is? Having a meltdown isn't a mental breakdown. It's not even close. I've had both. Mental breakdowns don't generally end without a stint in a psych ward at your favourite local hospital. And since you're here to tell the tale, you're not scheduled under the mental health act.

Well, people need to be aware of the rules, and if there is nobody telling you it is there.
AheadMatthewawsome


If only there was some website you could go to: https://lmgtfy.com/?q=Sydney+Trains+photography+policy -- It's the first bloody result.

You can’t judge somebody of who they are when they are 13.
AheadMatthewawsome


But we can judge you here and now based on what you're telling us.

I just can’t give out any proof of my disability and mental heath. It is just common sense, as it is private.
AheadMatthewawsome


What? You can claim it but you can't back it up? Hah. What an age we live in!

This is just a misguided young member who thinks he has the moral high ground and is getting schooled.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
I just can’t give out any proof of my disability and mental heath. It is just common sense, as it is private.
AheadMatthewAwesome"
Not any more; you have chosen to put it into the public domain.
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
Folks, I'm not overly thrilled with the direction this has gone, AheadMatthewAwesome has raised his concerns and they've been addressed & hopefully he's learned what needs to happen in future if he want's to continue his documenting from within the station environment, so not much else can be served by continuing along the current lines.

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