Future of Overland train service in doubt

 
Topic moved from News by dthead on 25 Nov 2019 19:16
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Knowing Chairman Dan there will be pokies obscuring the windows to help pay for it... or maybe posters of President Xi Jinping.who made all this possible...
Okay Don, you can ease up on the praise for our premier now. You've made your point and now it's just getting tiring.
TheMeddlingMonk
Newsflash: It's ALL borrowed money. Doesn't that concern you in the least?

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  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
So a state government borrows money Don, who'd a thunk it.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Starting to read like sour grapes to me.
The Vinelander
No, really more a case of a projected state debt of $90 billion by 2022 (do you prefer that with or without all the zeroes on the end?) and an astonishment about how Victoria can manage to keep spending when they're already up to their necks in it post-COVID.

To make a comparison, Cain/Kirner left Kennett a debt of around $27 billion and that was considered extremely high.
Be careful what you wish for...whilst Dan has grabbed the bull with both horns to sort out the branch stacking within the Victorian Labor party administration, it of itself is unlikely to have an impact electorally as he has distanced the government from the protagonators. I'd be far more wary of the branch stacking in the Liberal party of which Malcolm was the star and the religious crackpots of the right who have infiltrated that/your party's ranks in recent years.
The Vinelander
This has nothing to do with what is being discussed.
As your other SA compatriot Don is well aware, in part due to his recent shrill posts...the Overland will in all likelihood be rolling along...long after the COVID-19 scourge is consigned to history. Mike.
The Vinelander
So now you've dropped yet another part of the story which is that it will in fact remain a Melbourne-Adelaide service; interesting. Only yesterday I predicted that you couldn't help yourself and you'd blab the rest of the information and almost immediately you obliged. Well done. Now we can move on to discussing what the form of the new service will be (time-table, stops, contribution from the SA government).

Any more hot tips on what the new service will look like, Mister My-Lips-Are-Sealed?
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Is it true that the total subsidy for the Overdue is in its present form, wait for it,wait for it, 1.2 million dollars  P A. Jeebus, if that's the case, that luddite Bronwyn Bishops parliamentary pension could cover 25% of that and 'Shunter and Valvegear could supply the rest in loose change.
  wobert Chief Commissioner
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Something I stumbled across

http://hotrails.net/2019/11/the-case-for-the-overland/

Dunno if it's been posted before, but anyway
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
A bit out of date and pre "the clapp"

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-28/victorian-budget-2019-daniel-andrews-michael-obrien-debt-taxes/11156034#:~=The%20State%20Budget%20delivered%20yesterday,%2454.9%20billion%20by%202022%2D23.
wobert
Those projections are way out of date - I don't have a link at the moment but the latest I read was $90 billion by the time of the next state election in 2022. COVID19 has been an extremely expensive exercise for all levels of government; we won't even know what the actual damage is to the Commonwealth budget until around October.

My own state government here in SA has been a lot more frugal about infrastructure spending but nevertheless we have a state debt approaching $23 billion. They're trying to figure out how they can complete the South Road project without tolls but it may not be possible given a bored tunnel costing big money could be the outcome. I read an interesting fact the other day which was that Sydney now has the most expensive toll roads in the world - another title that I wouldn't be proud of.

Anyway I'd be interested to know if the Commonwealth is going to come to the party with the new Overland train project especially seeing as they own the tracks that it will be running on.
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
don should you book ya keyboard in for a service & tune up, change the oil, plugs, check the points and wack the timing light on it, she's clocked up a lot of k's recently Wink

BigShunter.
  TheMeddlingMonk Deputy Commissioner

Location: The Time Vortex near Melbourne, Australia
Knowing Chairman Dan there will be pokies obscuring the windows to help pay for it... or maybe posters of President Xi Jinping.who made all this possible...
Okay Don, you can ease up on the praise for our premier now. You've made your point and now it's just getting tiring.
Newsflash: It's ALL borrowed money. Doesn't that concern you in the least?
don_dunstan
Really? You can cut the condescension, Don, I know it's borrowed money. Yes, large debt does concern me, but repeatedly resorting to ad hominem and hyperbole does not help your credibility - it just grates after a while and makes me inclined to tune you out, regardless of the validity of your other arguments.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Where does this figure of $600 per passenger subsidy come from? One I found said $61.
wobert

Like the policy of the Herald-Sun and the Adelaide Advertiser...never let the truth get in the way of a good (Dons) story.

M.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line

My own state government here in SA has been a lot more frugal about infrastructure spending but nevertheless we have a state debt approaching $23 billion. They're trying to figure out how they can complete the South Road project without tolls but it may not be possible given a bored tunnel costing big money could be the outcome. I read an interesting fact the other day which was that Sydney now has the most expensive toll roads in the world - another title that I wouldn't be proud of.

don_dunstan

'This has nothing to do with what is being discussed.'

M.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
don should you book ya keyboard in for a service & tune up, change the oil, plugs, check the points and wack the timing light on it, she's clocked up a lot of k's recently Wink

BigShunter.
BigShunter
Funny you should mention that, I'm stuck at home this weekend waiting for the gas people to come around and check out my gas line, I think there's an obstruction in it because the hot water service isn't getting enough gas to work properly. They said they'd be here two hours ago!
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Where does this figure of $600 per passenger subsidy come from? One I found said $61.
wobert
Someone mentioned it a few pages back and I assumed it was correct. Even if it is "only" $61 that's still more than three times the normal V/line subsidy.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud

My own state government here in SA has been a lot more frugal about infrastructure spending but nevertheless we have a state debt approaching $23 billion. They're trying to figure out how they can complete the South Road project without tolls but it may not be possible given a bored tunnel costing big money could be the outcome. I read an interesting fact the other day which was that Sydney now has the most expensive toll roads in the world - another title that I wouldn't be proud of.

'This has nothing to do with what is being discussed.'

M.
The Vinelander
There's no comparison. You went off on a tangent about how wonderful Chairman Dan would likely survive the branch-stacking thing - which has nothing at all to do with what's being discussed. However how governments fund projects and how the cost/benefits of that spending affects the public has EVERYTHING to do with this thread.
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Where does this figure of $600 per passenger subsidy come from? One I found said $61.
Someone mentioned it a few pages back and I assumed it was correct. Even if it is "only" $61 that's still more than three times the normal V/line subsidy.
don_dunstan
Well if that's the case, I think we should shut the whole V/Line catastrophe as of right now.





I wish there was a sarc tag.
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
don should you book ya keyboard in for a service & tune up, change the oil, plugs, check the points and wack the timing light on it, she's clocked up a lot of k's recently Wink

BigShunter.
Funny you should mention that, I'm stuck at home this weekend waiting for the gas people to come around and check out my gas line, I think there's an obstruction in it because the hot water service isn't getting enough gas to work properly. They said they'd be here two hours ago!
don_dunstan
I blame global warming and the ALP, especially Chairman Dan.


cheers Don
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Second thoughts, perhaps the carbon fairy
  Maximas Locomotive Fireman

Location: Geelong
Where does this figure of $600 per passenger subsidy come from? One I found said $61.
Someone mentioned it a few pages back and I assumed it was correct. Even if it is "only" $61 that's still more than three times the normal V/line subsidy.
Well if that's the case, I think we should shut the whole V/Line catastrophe as of right now.





I wish there was a sarc tag.
wobert
Only that the lesser subsidised average vline trips are actually made on a consistent basis by commuters (on the whole), it is possible to advocate generally for spending on rail infrastructure while also pointing out that certain projects don't stack up. When did this debate become so ideological?

That's interesting on the $600 subsidy, that did seem outrageous thinking back but I also just accepted it and moved on, I'm interested now to know what the real figure is.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

The annual passenger trip numbers in recent years were between 17000 and 24000, the previous annual subsidy was 1.08 million, divided by the conservative ridership of 17000 that's about $63, so 61 is about average.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
don should you book ya keyboard in for a service & tune up, change the oil, plugs, check the points and wack the timing light on it, she's clocked up a lot of k's recently.
BigShunter"
He should also service the Interossiter and fit new brass Skiffle Pins.
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
The real cost per passenger should be the cost of running the train + the bonus subsidy subtract the ticket income, divided by the passenger numbers.
The average subsidy per passenger is therefore the above number subtract the average cost of the ticket.
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Bored at home
Where does this figure of $600 per passenger subsidy come from? One I found said $61.
Someone mentioned it a few pages back and I assumed it was correct. Even if it is "only" $61 that's still more than three times the normal V/line subsidy.
don_dunstan
oh come on @don, don't be coy. It was YOU !!

page 31.

at 20/6/2020 12:36am @Aaron by some very dodgy maths came up with $550 per return ticket.
at 20/6/2020 12:43pm @don_dunstan  miraculously inflated that to $600 per trip

At least own your own bulltish, and not blame the all knowing "someone".
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Something I stumbled across

http://hotrails.net/2019/11/the-case-for-the-overland/

Dunno if it's been posted before, but anyway
wobert
Hadn't seen that before - according to the author Journey Beyond themselves make a loss of $130,000. Not a bad article all up but he makes some assumptions about competing air travel that don't stack up. Also he's making assumptions about people moving to places like Ararat and commuting to larger towns for work and I'm not sure if that's really feasible, not in the numbers he's suggesting anyway.
The annual passenger trip numbers in recent years were between 17000 and 24000, the previous annual subsidy was 1.08 million, divided by the conservative ridership of 17000 that's about $63, so 61 is about average.
route14
That's what the Hotrails report said too.
oh come on @don, don't be coy. It was YOU !! page 31. at 20/6/2020 12:36am @Aaron by some very dodgy maths came up with $550 per return ticket. at 20/6/2020 12:43pm @don_dunstan miraculously inflated that to $600 per trip At least own your own bulltish, and not blame the all knowing "someone".
justarider
So what? I was wrong, big deal.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
The real cost per passenger should be the cost of running the train + the bonus subsidy subtract the ticket income, divided by the passenger numbers.
The average subsidy per passenger is therefore the above number subtract the average cost of the ticket.
Donald
The only thing that could said for the current service is that the cost of the rolling stock has already been written down, they'll have to include the cost of new standard gauge rolling stock in working out what the subsidy will be for a new service.

Contrary to Vinelander's incessant whinging about me I think it's not a bad outcome - the service as it was was hopeless and no good to anyone and its good thing its finally winding up. Spending money on a new service was what was required. Having said that I really hope they don't use it as an excuse to chop the Daylink bus.
The only reason for the Overland to stay is because 40 somethings in Dimboola who have never used the train in their lifetime want to keep for bragging rights over nearby Pimpnio. The coach is 10000000 times better than the train, and that will never change unless the Overland doesn't go to Geelong.
Stooge Spark
This is still the basic problem and why I would still probably prefer the bus - any new train service MUST interface with the Ararat broad gauge services as seamlessly as possible; no good asking intending passengers to wait an hour in the cold or the heat for their transfer service.

Also for my purposes it's much easier to get to the Franklin Street bus terminal than it is to get out to Keswick, especially at that hour of the morning.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
don should you book ya keyboard in for a service & tune up, change the oil, plugs, check the points and wack the timing light on it, she's clocked up a lot of k's recently Wink

BigShunter.
Funny you should mention that, I'm stuck at home this weekend waiting for the gas people to come around and check out my gas line, I think there's an obstruction in it because the hot water service isn't getting enough gas to work properly. They said they'd be here two hours ago!
I blame global warming and the ALP, especially Chairman Dan.


cheers Don
wobert
Chairman Dan is your problem, not mine!

The issue turned out to be connected to the galvanized pipe between the meter and the house - we had a new Rinnai instant hot water service put in last year and it's been going luke-warm halfway through a shower for no reason. We had the Rinnai service man out for a look (under warranty) a few weeks ago and he said definitely an issue with the variable gas pressure - now the gas company bloke confirms that the problem is not the supply from the street, so by process of elimination its the crappy old galv pipe that runs to the house corroding internally and blocking the pipe.

I didn't know this but instant hot water services require constant high pressure; our old tank-style Rheem didn't need the higher pressure because its running all the time and not in bursts. The only other gas appliance is our stove and that's also relatively immune to the variable pressure.

Now we've got a dilemma - either replace the rotting galvanised pipe with a copper pipe which our plumber reckons could be up to four grand OR find another older tank style hot water service that doesn't need constant high pressure gas - which will cost much less but they're a lot less efficient.

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