Baxter Electrification

 
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

Two times a day and, possibly on occasions, three times. From M Wong’s Waking Up in Geelong website:
https://wongm.com/2019/10/hastings-bluescope-steel-train-frankston-line/

One (from earlier this year) of the numerous RP threads on the topic:
https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11401090-0-asc-s0.htm

Sponsored advertisement

  Camster Chief Commissioner

Location: Geelong
Matthew Guy has yesterday announced he will match the Andrews Government plan to push electrification to Baxter.  This is a me too statement so no real news there.  Pity he did not take it further and complete the job to Stoney Point.
And a line from Dandenong to Frankston, plus quadding Dandenong to Caulfield with Freight taken off of the Frankston line, but one step at a time.
How many freight trains use the Franskton line? I am guessing one each way a day, but of course am open to correction.
1 Long Island steel train per day each way afaik
Lachlan's Train Channel
That would be my guess. I think there is an answer in another reply.
  Camster Chief Commissioner

Location: Geelong
Two times a day and, possibly on occasions, three times. From M Wong’s Waking Up in Geelong website:
https://wongm.com/2019/10/hastings-bluescope-steel-train-frankston-line/

One (from earlier this year) of the numerous RP threads on the topic:
https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11401090-0-asc-s0.htm
kitchgp
Thanks.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Thanks.
Camster

@Michelle12 can provide more detail and loco numbers.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Does seem the budget from the feds does still include some cash for the Baxter works which will take years to deliver under this government. https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/rail-extension-funding-still-in-the-budget
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Does seem the budget from the feds does still include some cash for the Baxter works which will take years to deliver under this government. https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/rail-extension-funding-still-in-the-budget
bevans
Trouble is Victoria attaches a higher priority to Cranbourne duplication and extension to Clyde, than Baxter electrification. Minister Allan continually says we are full chat now with capex works and cant handle any more.

Meanwhile in Sydney road and rail capex projects under way are significantly more than here, and yet Gladyys Beercan seem to be able to manage a bigger program of works. One wonders.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Does seem the budget from the feds does still include some cash for the Baxter works which will take years to deliver under this government. https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/rail-extension-funding-still-in-the-budget
Trouble is Victoria attaches a higher priority to Cranbourne duplication and extension to Clyde, than Baxter electrification. Minister Allan continually says we are full chat now with capex works and cant handle any more.

Meanwhile in Sydney road and rail capex projects under way are significantly more than here, and yet Gladyys Beercan seem to be able to manage a bigger program of works. One wonders.
kuldalai
I can't help but think that Sydney may have a bigger workforce, or that COVID might have something to do with it...
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Melbourne project delivery for rail was a mess pre covid.
  Tii Beginner

It's funded and I'm guessing it will be promised before the next state election and started after Cranbourne and ready for 2025 metro tunnel opening. I think the level crossing removals on Frankston line will be completed first before its started.
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

Does seem the budget from the feds does still include some cash for the Baxter works which will take years to deliver under this government. https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/rail-extension-funding-still-in-the-budget
Trouble is Victoria attaches a higher priority to Cranbourne duplication and extension to Clyde, than Baxter electrification. Minister Allan continually says we are full chat now with capex works and cant handle any more.

Meanwhile in Sydney road and rail capex projects under way are significantly more than here, and yet Gladyys Beercan seem to be able to manage a bigger program of works. One wonders.
kuldalai
Firstly, its got jack to do with the state government, this is another Federal Government pet project. They are still holding on to the business case which they wont release and a very much doubt the $225 million is anywhere near the total cost of the project. It will be well north of $500m

Secondly, Baxter is not a priority. Which is why the state government isn't pushing it at the moment.

The Baxter electrification is only going ahead for operational reasons, there is no pressing capacity demands beyond Frankston. Upgraded stabling at Kanannook has also helped to address the operational issues short term.

Cranbourne, Hurstbridge upgrades as well as those planned for the west are of a higher priority. Pre COVID these lines had significant crowding and capacity issues that could not be addressed with the current infrastructure. This is not the case with Frankston, additional services can be added. It is just inconvenient for Metro as stabling is limited.

The project will be great for the Frankston South and Baxter, as well as making life easier for Metro. Baxter is likely to kick off before the next election once the current program of LXR works have been completed.

It will most likely be announced before the next state election, which is after the next federal election. Thats unless the feds decided to fund the project fully, depends how much they want to keep the seat or if they will sandbag other areas.

Lockie
  TrackRailroad Train Controller

Location: Frankston Line
Does seem the budget from the feds does still include some cash for the Baxter works which will take years to deliver under this government. https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/rail-extension-funding-still-in-the-budget
Trouble is Victoria attaches a higher priority to Cranbourne duplication and extension to Clyde, than Baxter electrification. Minister Allan continually says we are full chat now with capex works and cant handle any more.

Meanwhile in Sydney road and rail capex projects under way are significantly more than here, and yet Gladyys Beercan seem to be able to manage a bigger program of works. One wonders.
Firstly, its got jack to do with the state government, this is another Federal Government pet project. They are still holding on to the business case which they wont release and a very much doubt the $225 million is anywhere near the total cost of the project. It will be well north of $500m

Secondly, Baxter is not a priority. Which is why the state government isn't pushing it at the moment.

The Baxter electrification is only going ahead for operational reasons, there is no pressing capacity demands beyond Frankston. Upgraded stabling at Kanannook has also helped to address the operational issues short term.

Cranbourne, Hurstbridge upgrades as well as those planned for the west are of a higher priority. Pre COVID these lines had significant crowding and capacity issues that could not be addressed with the current infrastructure. This is not the case with Frankston, additional services can be added. It is just inconvenient for Metro as stabling is limited.

The project will be great for the Frankston South and Baxter, as well as making life easier for Metro. Baxter is likely to kick off before the next election once the current program of LXR works have been completed.

It will most likely be announced before the next state election, which is after the next federal election. Thats unless the feds decided to fund the project fully, depends how much they want to keep the seat or if they will sandbag other areas.

Lockie
Lockie91
Thanks for your insight. I think the Baxter extension is a worthwhile project and so it would be great to see it funded by both the state and federal governments, with an announcement before the next State Election in 2022 ideally. I think it will definitely improve operational capacity for Metro and will facilitate more frequent train services, plus providing a rail line to the poorly public transport served areas of Karingal, Frankston South, Langwarrin, Baxter and easier access from the Mornington Peninsula, being so close to Peninsula Link at Baxter. In terms of cost I think you are correct the cost is likely to between $500 million to $1 billion depending which option is taken.

At the minimum two electrified duplicated tracks should be provided with stations ideally at Frankston East/ Leawarra, Langwarrin and Baxter. I would like to see the line extended to Mornington, but I imagine extending from Baxter to Mornington would add significant costs and is probably not a major transport priority, though would definitely improve transport to the Mornington area. Would people use a service though? Especially when the train would take about 20 minutes to reach Frankston, with an express bus/driving taking 10 to 15 minutes. And the old Mornington Station is not ideally located, with the main activity centre further distance to the west, requiring a bus connection from Mornington to the activity centre. I think there would be good patronage on a new Mornington Line with a lot of residental areas nearby. What do others think?
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Does seem the budget from the feds does still include some cash for the Baxter works which will take years to deliver under this government. https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/rail-extension-funding-still-in-the-budget
Trouble is Victoria attaches a higher priority to Cranbourne duplication and extension to Clyde, than Baxter electrification. Minister Allan continually says we are full chat now with capex works and cant handle any more.

Meanwhile in Sydney road and rail capex projects under way are significantly more than here, and yet Gladyys Beercan seem to be able to manage a bigger program of works. One wonders.
Firstly, its got jack to do with the state government, this is another Federal Government pet project. They are still holding on to the business case which they wont release and a very much doubt the $225 million is anywhere near the total cost of the project. It will be well north of $500m

Secondly, Baxter is not a priority. Which is why the state government isn't pushing it at the moment.

The Baxter electrification is only going ahead for operational reasons, there is no pressing capacity demands beyond Frankston. Upgraded stabling at Kanannook has also helped to address the operational issues short term.

Cranbourne, Hurstbridge upgrades as well as those planned for the west are of a higher priority. Pre COVID these lines had significant crowding and capacity issues that could not be addressed with the current infrastructure. This is not the case with Frankston, additional services can be added. It is just inconvenient for Metro as stabling is limited.

The project will be great for the Frankston South and Baxter, as well as making life easier for Metro. Baxter is likely to kick off before the next election once the current program of LXR works have been completed.

It will most likely be announced before the next state election, which is after the next federal election. Thats unless the feds decided to fund the project fully, depends how much they want to keep the seat or if they will sandbag other areas.

Lockie
Thanks for your insight. I think the Baxter extension is a worthwhile project and so it would be great to see it funded by both the state and federal governments, with an announcement before the next State Election in 2022 ideally. I think it will definitely improve operational capacity for Metro and will facilitate more frequent train services, plus providing a rail line to the poorly public transport served areas of Karingal, Frankston South, Langwarrin, Baxter and easier access from the Mornington Peninsula, being so close to Peninsula Link at Baxter. In terms of cost I think you are correct the cost is likely to between $500 million to $1 billion depending which option is taken.
TrackRailroad
I would add the Monash University Peninsula campus which is quite close to Leawarra station.
  historian Deputy Commissioner

And the old Mornington Station is not ideally located, with the main activity centre further distance to the west, requiring a bus connection from Mornington to the activity centre.
TrackRailroad

The old Mornington station was right in the centre of the current central activity centre. The Mornington Central shopping centre is built on its site.
  TrackRailroad Train Controller

Location: Frankston Line
And the old Mornington Station is not ideally located, with the main activity centre further distance to the west, requiring a bus connection from Mornington to the activity centre.

The old Mornington station was right in the centre of the current central activity centre. The Mornington Central shopping centre is built on its site.
historian
Okay thanks for clarifying this for me.
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

Key issue standing in the way of Baxter actually getting built anytime soon, is that the federal Libs won't release the business case.

Local federal Labor MP held a press conference this morning as to why the Feds were holding out.  Fairly easy to assumption to make is the Libs actually have no intention of building it - they just like having it as a carrot for trying to get a Lib member elected to the seat of Dunkley.

Worth remembering as well that the Lib candidate at the last state election let slip that they probably weren't really going to build best Langwarrin anyway, so you can draw your own conclusions.
  ElliotProvis Junior Train Controller

Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Key issue standing in the way of Baxter actually getting built anytime soon, is that the federal Libs won't release the business case.

Local federal Labor MP held a press conference this morning as to why the Feds were holding out. Fairly easy to assumption to make is the Libs actually have no intention of building it - they just like having it as a carrot for trying to get a Lib member elected to the seat of Dunkley.

Worth remembering as well that the Lib candidate at the last state election let slip that they probably weren't really going to build best Langwarrin anyway, so you can draw your own conclusions.
Adogs


Colour me surprised... The Federal LNP don't give two s#!ts worth for Victoria.

What astounds me is that so many people in these forums that are so supportive of the all of the investment the state government has poured into the rail network over the past 6 and a half years, and yet still buy into all of the rhetoric blaming the state government for delays which have been created by the Federal LNP.

You know, people blaming the State for the delay to Baxter (with all the money being promised by the Federal LNP) being just one example.

——Now —  fair warning, I'm going to go on a tangential aside for the next little bit——

Another would be that the last state government botched the business case for the MBRP, which this state government implemented (to their own disadvantage I might add — they did not double-check the business case that the 'pro-business and economics' state government developed, but then who would think that business case had been botched, seeing as the last state government is apparently 'so good' with economics).
The state gov implemented this in partnership with the Commonwealth. The plan falls to pieces because -what a shock- the business case was done on the cheap by the last state gov (with an extra dollop of mismanagement y V/Line), and yet this is somehow the fault of the current state government???

Then, when the economy tanks, and the state needs a 'lifeline' thrown to it because of a pandemic + biggest economic collapse since the depression, the Federal LNP somehow can't find the money to finish the most shovel ready project in the whole state, the MBRP. Despite having control of the Reserve Bank of Australia, and despite repeated calls from the governor of the reserve bank for the Feds to spend big on infrastructure to restart the economy, they refuse to put money into the MBRP because... reasons?????????
They are literally refusing to help the regional communities they claim to represent, and yet this is all the fault of the state government somehow??

Or how about the Federal LNP refused to help fund the Metro Tunnel as a way of punishing Victoria for booting out the incompetent Bailieu-Napthine government in 2014, and ditching the negatively-rated business case for the East-West Link.
THEN, they have the gall to dangle $7 billion in front of the state gov, BUT ONLY for the zombie project that never seems to die, the E-W Link. They know that Victoria won't build it, I doubt they even have the money for it. Its just fun to for them to mock Victoria, and it costs them nothing politically. Why does it cost nothing? Because nobody holds the Feds to account for the way they treat Victoria.

What about the $2.7 billion for NSW, and the piddling $1.1 billion for Victoria to get out of the recession/depression? Why is the state that copped the short end of the COVID-stick, being essentially 4 months behind the rest of the country, why does it get so much less than NSW? Why so much less funding when Melbourne is still projected to overtake the population of Sydney???

Why aren't people holding the federal government to account for the deliberate traps it is setting up for Victoria to fall into? Does it not occur to people that the Feds deliberately want Victoria to fail because it would suit their political ambition?

Our state's recovery from COVID is just a football the Feds will use to try and smash Victoria with.

— — ok, thats the curtain call on the rant, thanks for listening — —
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

I couldn't agree with you more ElliotProvis. The Liberal Federal government is obviously been playing politics with Victorian infrastructure spending ever since they came into office.

It was only because of Labor Federal government we got major funding towards Regional Rail Link and future funding for the Metro rail tunnel.

Then the roads of the 21st century ideology comes in from the incoming Liberal Federal government, to only fund road projects like the East West Link and dump the funding set aside for the Metro rail tunnel. As soon as Daniel Andrews came into office, the 21st century roads of the future guy thought it was a good idea wasting money on a stupid billboard about the East west link being dumped.

Once that 21st century roads guy was gone, they played politics with Metro rail tunnel insisting South Yarra to be built even though it was a state government project they wanted to have a go there. Also it took them 6 or so months of arguing about federal funding for regional rail revival upgrades. As well as that Malcolm Turnball thought it was a political idea to suddenly announce 5 billion dollars for the airport rail link just before the Federal election, didn't tell the state government first, just went ahead and announced it on a whim. All great and good to score political points to the state government once again.

As far as I'm aware Roe-8 highway got cancelled in Perth, yet treat Perth with plenty of funding for Metro-net and forgets about the Roe-8 project. Meanwhile we have been threatened that if you don't do the East west link, federal money will not be spent in Victoria and set there doing nothing. That's what you call great economical decision making, put money in there doing jack all nothing.

Also remember the Federal government once again decided on a whim to fund the Glenferrie Kooyong level crossing removal, just to score more political points, while not funding level crossing removals that are shovel ready. What a joke. You have plenty of projects that are shovel ready that they can chose from, yet decide to fund things like high speed rail to Geelong!!!!!

Great idea let's put money for high speed trains to Geelong, even though that realistically will not happen for another 10 years. Wonderful idea. And only fund rail projects that suit them, and for road projects it's all good to give funding (North east link, Western ring road upgrades, Monash Freeway upgrade).

Sorry for the rant, Federal government should take some responsibility here for actually putting funding where it matters and also not have the state government actually come in reminding them where they need the funding. They don't care about where they are spending money for Victoria infrastructure unless it suit them for political point scoring.
  CraigieburnLineUser Locomotive Fireman

We are kinda forgetting here that no government wants to take responsibility for plans going wrong. They are always going to try and shift the blame. Labor governments are basically forced to take the blame because of our Murdoch, Seven-West and Nine media. It isn't going to change in a hurry (if at all).

We can see how obvious the political point scoring is but it doesn't see the light of day because of the above mentioned media
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I couldn't agree with you more ElliotProvis. The Liberal Federal government is obviously been playing politics with Victorian infrastructure spending ever since they came into office.

It was only because of Labor Federal government we got major funding towards Regional Rail Link and future funding for the Metro rail tunnel.

Then the roads of the 21st century ideology comes in from the incoming Liberal Federal government, to only fund road projects like the East West Link and dump the funding set aside for the Metro rail tunnel. As soon as Daniel Andrews came into office, the 21st century roads of the future guy thought it was a good idea wasting money on a stupid billboard about the East west link being dumped.

Once that 21st century roads guy was gone, they played politics with Metro rail tunnel insisting South Yarra to be built even though it was a state government project they wanted to have a go there. Also it took them 6 or so months of arguing about federal funding for regional rail revival upgrades. As well as that Malcolm Turnball thought it was a political idea to suddenly announce 5 billion dollars for the airport rail link just before the Federal election, didn't tell the state government first, just went ahead and announced it on a whim. All great and good to score political points to the state government once again.

As far as I'm aware Roe-8 highway got cancelled in Perth, yet treat Perth with plenty of funding for Metro-net and forgets about the Roe-8 project. Meanwhile we have been threatened that if you don't do the East west link, federal money will not be spent in Victoria and set there doing nothing. That's what you call great economical decision making, put money in there doing jack all nothing.

Also remember the Federal government once again decided on a whim to fund the Glenferrie Kooyong level crossing removal, just to score more political points, while not funding level crossing removals that are shovel ready. What a joke. You have plenty of projects that are shovel ready that they can chose from, yet decide to fund things like high speed rail to Geelong!!!!!

Great idea let's put money for high speed trains to Geelong, even though that realistically will not happen for another 10 years. Wonderful idea. And only fund rail projects that suit them, and for road projects it's all good to give funding (North east link, Western ring road upgrades, Monash Freeway upgrade).

Sorry for the rant, Federal government should take some responsibility here for actually putting funding where it matters and also not have the state government actually come in reminding them where they need the funding. They don't care about where they are spending money for Victoria infrastructure unless it suit them for political point scoring.
True Believers
Now think in reverse to this comment, "only because of Labor Federal government we got major funding towards Regional Rail Link"

What other state has received so much money or actually any money for their regional passenger rail network? Could it be the Fed govt of the day was playing politics?

Geelong fast rail is neither required nor justified, its a waste of money and there are bigger fish to fry, but once again what other state has the Feds raised the option of a 100km long medium to high speed commuter line?

Once again Vic just seems to be doing things differently.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
being essentially 4 months behind the rest of the country, why does it get so much less than NSW? Why so much less funding when Melbourne is still projected to overtake the population of Sydney???
Elliot

Because Vic has cost the rest of the country alot of money for their own incompetence? Australia was ready to get back to business in June, would have had open border to NZ and a few others, but someone in the deep south decided to F_up. How much do you think this F-up has cost the Australian economy?

Whether Melbourne over takes Sydney is yet to be seen, it wasn't that long ago Brisbane was going to overtake Melbourne.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
being essentially 4 months behind the rest of the country, why does it get so much less than NSW? Why so much less funding when Melbourne is still projected to overtake the population of Sydney???

Because Vic has cost the rest of the country alot of money for their own incompetence? Australia was ready to get back to business in June, would have had open border to NZ and a few others, but someone in the deep south decided to F_up. How much do you think this F-up has cost the Australian economy?

Whether Melbourne over takes Sydney is yet to be seen, it wasn't that long ago Brisbane was going to overtake Melbourne.
RTT_Rules
Melbourne's population Is tipped to decline, as Internet based companies are fed up with the Victorian State Government and are eager to jump State.
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

being essentially 4 months behind the rest of the country, why does it get so much less than NSW? Why so much less funding when Melbourne is still projected to overtake the population of Sydney???

Because Vic has cost the rest of the country alot of money for their own incompetence? Australia was ready to get back to business in June, would have had open border to NZ and a few others, but someone in the deep south decided to F_up. How much do you think this F-up has cost the Australian economy?

Whether Melbourne over takes Sydney is yet to be seen, it wasn't that long ago Brisbane was going to overtake Melbourne.
Melbourne's population Is tipped to decline, as Internet based companies are fed up with the Victorian State Government and are eager to jump State.
Nightfire

That's really just a guess, no one's got any hard data that the population trend will change.
  ElliotProvis Junior Train Controller

Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Hahaha my gosh.

There are some absolutely terrible takes here. When presented with incontrovertible factual evidence, that the Federal LNP simply does not want to fund Victoria, the party hacks start justifying it with some of the most irredeemably false spin.

I suspect a few people in Sky News would LOVE to hire some of the posters here.

Let’s start from the beginning, shall we?

Now think in reverse to this comment, "only because of Labor Federal government we got major funding towards Regional Rail Link" What other state has received so much money or actually any money for their regional passenger rail network? Could it be the Fed govt of the day was playing politics?
RTT_Rules

Lol. Let’s take a look at what happened in 2010 after NSW bungled their Epping-Chatswood Rail Link and couldn’t build the North-West Rail Link. Who swooped into save NSW:

In February 2010, the New South Wales Government re-announced the North West Rail Link as a conventional mainline railway, connected with the ECRL at Epping. On 11 August 2010, Prime Minister Julia Gillard announced $2.1bn in funding for the Epping to Parramatta Rail Link with $520m to be contributed by the NSW Government.[21] (a revisit of the 1998 NSW Government announcement, which despite a detailed report in 2003[22] was abandoned earlier in 2010 by the NSW Keneally Government)
Wikipedia

Oh. Is that a Federal Labor government spending money on Rail in NSW? Hmmmm looks like it to me.

To that end, your comparison is moot. Could it be that any Federal government likes to pour money into NSW (and specifically), into Sydney...?
If that was the point your sought to make from your argument, then I think we are in agreement. There clearly is a preference.

But hey — let’s ignore that. I see that there is zero rebuttal to my argument that the Federal LNP has refused to help fund MM1, whilst trying to force the Vic Gov into building the goddamn road that nobody asked for and which the LAST STATE LNP Gov of Victoria signed the contracts for (ensuring $1 billion was wasted by the hilariously misguided assumption they’d somehow win government).

In spite of this, you have the spin machines going into overdrive spewing abuse at the present Vic ALP Gov for paying out the contract that the LNP SIGNED.
Not a peep of critical journalism from the Herald Sun, or Sky, or NewsCorpse writ-large about that gross negligence of public office.

——
Stick around kiddies, I’m not done yet
——
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Hahaha my gosh.

There are some absolutely terrible takes here. When presented with incontrovertible factual evidence, that the Federal LNP simply does not want to fund Victoria, the party hacks start justifying it with some of the most irredeemably false spin.

I suspect a few people in Sky News would LOVE to hire some of the posters here.

Let’s start from the beginning, shall we?

Now think in reverse to this comment, "only because of Labor Federal government we got major funding towards Regional Rail Link" What other state has received so much money or actually any money for their regional passenger rail network? Could it be the Fed govt of the day was playing politics?

Lol. Let’s take a look at what happened in 2010 after NSW bungled their Epping-Chatswood Rail Link and couldn’t build the North-West Rail Link. Who swooped into save NSW:

In February 2010, the New South Wales Government re-announced the North West Rail Link as a conventional mainline railway, connected with the ECRL at Epping. On 11 August 2010, Prime Minister Julia Gillard announced $2.1bn in funding for the Epping to Parramatta Rail Link with $520m to be contributed by the NSW Government.[21] (a revisit of the 1998 NSW Government announcement, which despite a detailed report in 2003[22] was abandoned earlier in 2010 by the NSW Keneally Government)

Oh. Is that a Federal Labor government spending money on Rail in NSW? Hmmmm looks like it to me.

To that end, your comparison is moot. Could it be that any Federal government likes to pour money into NSW (and specifically), into Sydney...?
If that was the point your sought to make from your argument, then I think we are in agreement. There clearly is a preference.

But hey — let’s ignore that. I see that there is zero rebuttal to my argument that the Federal LNP has refused to help fund MM1, whilst trying to force the Vic Gov into building the goddamn road that nobody asked for and which the LAST STATE LNP Gov of Victoria signed the contracts for (ensuring $1 billion was wasted by the hilariously misguided assumption they’d somehow win government).

In spite of this, you have the spin machines going into overdrive spewing abuse at the present Vic ALP Gov for paying out the contract that the LNP SIGNED.
Not a peep of critical journalism from the Herald Sun, or Sky, or NewsCorpse writ-large about that gross negligence of public office.

——
Stick around kiddies, I’m not done yet
——
ElliotProvis
Might be worth checking your data

The former NSW ALP govt cancelled the 2nd part of the ECRL early on in the contract before I think most of the cost over runs came in. The same govt who started a number of rail projects and never completed. The current NSW govt (8 years in power) has built more commuter rail route km including tram and Metro than the rest of the country combined in the last 20 years. 100% of which was funded internally.

The current NSW LNP govt 100% internally funded the current NWRL Metro and the city to SW Metro. There is no fed money involved.

Gillard offered $2B to build the EPRL which was almost 100% of the expected project cost as a vote buying election stunt to help boost support in western Sydney for the upcoming 2010 Fed election. The money was never accepted by the last NSW ALP Premier KK nor the current NSW LNP govt as the project was not the most needy for the city. The EPRL is not even in the vision of the future rail projects. The NSW govt tried to get the funds diverted to the NWRL Metro, but the Fed (ALP I think) govt refused. Clearly the then Feds were only after potential ALP votes and couldn't give a rats about the more affluent NW region of Sydney that was in far more desperate need of a commuter rail that's been on and off for near 30 years.

To the best of my knowledge, the only money NSW has accepted for commuter rail is for the line to the new airport which I think is similar or less than Vic is getting for the bloody expensive airport railway that costs more than the Sydney, Brisbane, Perth and if Adelaide was to get one airport lines combined.
  ElliotProvis Junior Train Controller

Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Geelong fast rail is neither required nor justified, its a waste of money and there are bigger fish to fry, but once again what other state has the Feds raised the option of a 100km long medium to high speed commuter line?

Once again Vic just seems to be doing things differently.
RTT_Rules

I wasn't quite sure what the point from here was meant to be, my learned friend... but then I read this:

Because Vic has cost the rest of the country alot of money for their own incompetence? Australia was ready to get back to business in June, would have had open border to NZ and a few others, but someone in the deep south decided to F_up. How much do you think this F-up has cost the Australian economy?
RTT_Rules

Followed by:

Whether Melbourne over takes Sydney is yet to be seen, it wasn't that long ago Brisbane was going to overtake Melbourne.
RTT_Rules

So, what I take to be your meaning is that:

1. The Federal Government is intervening in the provision of state infrastructure to play politics (remembering in the 2019 Federal Election the member for Corangamite -right next to Geelong-, Sarah Henderson was in deep trouble and need a pork barreling exercise to attempt to save her seat. It did no such thing).
BUT, somehow this is Victoria's fault for "doing things differently".

Ah yes, I too agree that when the Commonwealth pork barrels for Federal Elections it is indeed the Victorian government's fault.

The argument fails because it does not make coherent or logical sense.

2. Because Victoria has cost the rest of Australia a lot of money, Victoria deserves to be punished economically... Furthermore, there was a deliberate attempt by (and I quote) "someone in the deep south" who "decided to F_up". Hence, this has cost Australia's national economy money and THEREFORE, Victoria deserves to be underfunded by the Commonwealth.

Do you listen to yourself? I can glean from your name 'RTT-Rules' you're unlikely to be a resident of Victoria.

Well, by that same logic, when will the Queensland Government (who was negligently uninsured for god knows what reason), repay the $5.7 Billion dollars that the rest of the country had to spend to bail out QLD? Want sources? Here, I have some, because I make sure I bother to research before making spurious arguments that can be so early picked apart:

Using the methodology shown in Appendix D for tangible costs, the total tangible cost associated with the 2010–11 Queensland floods is estimated at around $5.7 billion (2011 dollars) or $6.7 billion (2015 dollars).
Australian Business Roundtable
Source: Page 36, Table 3.1 [http://australianbusinessroundtable.com.au/assets/documents/Report%20-%20Social%20costs/7.%20The%20cost%20of%20natural%20disasters%20-%20Australian%20experiences.pdf

Can you see how irrelevant the point you're making is? As a Victorian, I don't see the need to punish Queensland for that mistake because it wasn't going to help Queensland recover from the flooding...

Again, the argument is defeated.

3. Brisbane was never going to be more populous than Melbourne or Sydney. A monoculture 'boom' from mining royalties was never going to last. it is pure delusion to think things were 'always going to remain the same' — if that was the case, then why would we have need for insurance companies? Surely we can predict exactly what will happen in the future from present trends? Clearly flawed reasoning. We live in a not-deterministic universe; we cannot predict everything.

If you rely upon one single export to fund things, then when that single export fluctuates in value (as exports are want to do in an international marketplace), the royalties that the state can rely upon, similarly fluctuate in value. So does the capital outlay of businesses in the area, and hence the jobs available, and then 'boom' is ended. Then people stop moving interstate bc their ain't no money to be made.

I remember a time when Perth was supposed to overtake Brisbane. But LO, it did not... and why is that, one may ask?
Ah, they too had a monoculture export, and when it dropped in value, the 'boom' ended.

Really, it boggles the mind why the money made from the mining boom wasn't invested into developing other exports and diversifying the economy. Iron Ore and Coal cannot be relied upon to retain their value in a volatile international market.

If the feudalist nation of Saudi Arabia can put two-and-two together (and hence invest enormous of capital into capital outlay, education, and generally diversifying their economy), why does Australia have such difficulty?

4. Now onto the final, spurious, point: Whether Melbourne will overtake Sydney. Perhaps I can concede the point in part... Could anyone predict a global pandemic that would shut down international borders indefinitely (until a vaccine is trialled, approved, and made available to the general global population). No... I don't think anyone in their wildest dreams predicted it.

Arguably, some such as Bill Gates, could predict the risk of such a pandemic, and the lack of preparation, would be a problem.

With almost all international migration switched off for the next few years, it is unlikely much of Australia will grow (leaving aside interstate migration, and intrastate migration towards urban centres). This will actually become a very big problem for all of Australia, but most particularly Melbourne and Sydney — both of which are so reliant on international migration, and international students. Indeed, this is already a problem, as education was a key export of both Melbourne and Sydney...

Idiotic policy promulgated by both stripes of neoliberal party in Australia (ALP and LNP), convinced Universities like Unimelb to go after the cash cow, whilst funding was cut continuously. Low and behold, Unimelb should be bankrupt when international students stop attending. I could go on, but that is a conversation for another day.

So, yes, it seems that we cannot predict when Melbourne will overtake Sydney in population size. Modelling from circa 2014 suggested it would occur by 2050.

But I would suggest to you that, because Victoria (and by that virtue Melbourne) has a more diversified and complex economy. As DFAT showed, Victoria has:

Goods trade #(excluding condiential items of trade) :
Victoria's major exports, 2017-18 (b):

Wool & other animal hair (incl tops)
2,120
million ($AUD)


Meat (excl beef)
1,783
million ($AUD)


Edible products & preparations, nes                                                  1,306 million ($AUD)


Beef, f.c.f.
1,238
million ($AUD)


Pharm products (excl medicaments)
1,155
million ($AUD)


Milk, cream, whey & yoghurt
1,018
million ($AUD)


Fruit & nuts
947
million ($AUD)


Aluminium
829
million ($AUD)


Wheat
806
million ($AUD)


Cheese & curd
778
million ($AUD)


Services trade:
Victoria's major exports, 2017-18:

Education-related travel
                                                                  10,620 million ($AUD)



Personal travel excluding education
5,062
million ($AUD)


Professional & management consulting
1,198

million ($AUD)
DFAT
EDIT: Source is here: [https://www.dfat.gov.au/sites/default/files/vic.pdf]

Make what you will of some of those random markings (does anyone know what the 'nes' in 'Edible products & preparations, nes' means???? Or what about 'f.c.f' in 'Beef, f.c.f.'???); the point remains. Big diverse economy.

Additionally, consider:
- Having a highly centralised population in the state, which allows more efficient economic exchanges;
- This in turn, means that the provision of goods and services is more efficient;
- The higher provision of services in Melbourne;
- Less expensive real-estate, and more room to expand than Sydney (not that urban Sprawl should be even contemplated, as I will explain later);
- A great deal of agricultural land around metropolitan Melbourne means that Melbourne is one of the most well-connected cities in Australia to its food production regions (if they don't let sprawl eat it all up!!);
- The (largely meaningless) 'most liveable city' title bestowed by a magazine not designed for the average person;
- etc etc.

On this basis I would suggest to you that these trends are likely to continue to benefit Melbourne into the future, and eventually result in a larger population.

I look forward to the day that Brisbane surpasses' all of our expectations and becomes the cultural and economic megalopolis of Australia. Perhaps Brisbane will grow to rival Tokyo?

Sponsored advertisement

Display from: