Stronger Together releases independent assessment of its plan to speed up regional rail

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 27 Jul 2020 15:23
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

Hey John.Z, are you suggesting running a loop line from Newport-SXS-Sunshine (on RRL)-Airport-Geelong? Doesn't seem a bad idea, but how will Mernda and the tunnel from Russhall-SXS work with that set up?
ElliotProvis
Metro 2 would have 4 tunnels. 2 for Metro, 2 for VLine

Metro would run Lara to Mernda via Newport/SXS/Flagstaff/Parville/Carlton/Clifton Hill

VLine would run Colac/Waurn Ponds to Sunshine via Newport/SXS (express from lara to newport to SXS,) and onwards to Ballarat via Deer Park and Bendigo/Seymour via Airport

edit: "Laverton" trains would be discontinued. New Track build to service the southern side of point cook and werribee, with a possible link at Werribee South where WV trains would also meet.

So Werribee South and Williamstown trains would run to Sandringham via the new Viaducts.

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  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Hey John.Z, are you suggesting running a loop line from Newport-SXS-Sunshine (on RRL)-Airport-Geelong? Doesn't seem a bad idea, but how will Mernda and the tunnel from Russhall-SXS work with that set up?
Metro 2 would have 4 tunnels. 2 for Metro, 2 for VLine
John.Z

4 tunnels is a little bit over doing it. Melbourne Metro 2 tunnels only require 2 tunnels. Geelong line will be part of the Metro system in the future, why need to have 4 tunnels?
  Upven Junior Train Controller

Hey John.Z, are you suggesting running a loop line from Newport-SXS-Sunshine (on RRL)-Airport-Geelong? Doesn't seem a bad idea, but how will Mernda and the tunnel from Russhall-SXS work with that set up?
Metro 2 would have 4 tunnels. 2 for Metro, 2 for VLine

4 tunnels is a little bit over doing it. Melbourne Metro 2 tunnels only require 2 tunnels. Geelong line will be part of the Metro system in the future, why need to have 4 tunnels?
may as well rename the state Greater Melbourne at this rate.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

4 tunnels is a little bit over doing it. Melbourne Metro 2 tunnels only require 2 tunnels. Geelong line will be part of the Metro system in the future, why need to have 4 tunnels?
True Believers
The only "Melbourne" thing Geelong gets is TV.

There's no reason why Werribee metro can't be extended to Lara, and a Geelong Metro run from Lara to Waurn Ponds/Torquay/Drysdale (with Flagship Geelong trains running Colac (sometimes)-Waurn Ponds-Geelong-Lara-City, all other stations only served by metro SAS services).

But it would be an extremely large downgrade to run Geelong trains SAS to Melbourne, whilst Ballarat and Bendigo trains run express from Melton and Sunbury.

Really, Geelong trains should be running express from Lara into the City (with Werribee to Lara turned into a metro service). It's just as greenfields as the Sunbury line is beyond watergardens.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Scotland now planing on going carbon neutral with their system. https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/scotland-unveils-rail-carbon-reduction-plans

Nothing at all from Vline.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Scotland now planing on going carbon neutral with their system. https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/scotland-unveils-rail-carbon-reduction-plans

Nothing at all from Vline.
bevans
Sorry Bevans but I must comment on this. V/Line is not a great organisation, but you cannot blame V/Line for not matching ScotRail. ScotRail from its creation has been well resourced and funded not just by the UK Government but capital grants from the Scottish Assembly and the EU. They have developed with input from those agencies a long term and coherent plan.

V/Line has had no such input until the Andrews Government took power. V/Line has been consistently defunded from the get go. The organisation can only do as much as their budget and the incumbent Government allows them. They barely had enough money to buy decent rollingstock, and as a result we still have old life expired stock running on our rails in 2020.


Michael
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

I don't believe it's a downgrade for Geelong trains to have a stopping all service metro style service. Sydney has had intercity electrified lines to Newcastle, Wollongong and to the Blue Mountains for many years, it's about time we had the same.

High speed express trains should only be considered after we have an electric intercity network, it's kinda silly to express over just a few stops to save very little time. Honestly with how contraint we can spend the money, I think it's better to get the regional lines electrified and duplicated before considering express services, just a waste of time currently. Build the high speed network to Sydney where the distance is much longer and the express services have dramatic time savings. Geelong high speed trains ain't needed for 20 years or even needed at all. Just a political move to be honest with you.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

I agree.  I enjoyed riding the Ringwood express trains but after reading an edition of Timetable Tuesday which mentioned that those expresses only saved two minutes, I agreed to the recommendation in that article in utilizing the Blackburn local trains on the entire route to increase the combined frequency to within 10 minutes (20 minutes beyond Ringwood).  I think the same with Geelong line.  It would be more helpful to increase the frequency to, say, 10 to 15 minutes than skipping a few stations, and electric trains are better suited for that (except Warrnambool trains).  What's the point of saving 5 minutes if you have to wait for one for 20 minutes or half an hour?
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
I agree.  I enjoyed riding the Ringwood express trains but after reading an edition of Timetable Tuesday which mentioned that those expresses only saved two minutes, I agreed to the recommendation in that article in utilizing the Blackburn local trains on the entire route to increase the combined frequency to within 10 minutes (20 minutes beyond Ringwood).  I think the same with Geelong line.  It would be more helpful to increase the frequency to, say, 10 to 15 minutes than skipping a few stations, and electric trains are better suited for that (except Warrnambool trains).  What's the point of saving 5 minutes if you have to wait for one for 20 minutes or half an hour?
route14
Can't let that load of BS go unchallenged.

Express Blackburn to Richmond (8:20am - 8:37) = 17 minutes
SAS (8:17am - 8:44) = 27 minutes

cheers
John
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

So we are objecting to building a tunnel where track capacity is needed and will cater for millions of pax a year from half of regional Victoria & the few from the airport. But happy to spend $20 billion and change on Metro 2? Metro 2 is not needed and will not be needed for decades, if ever. It was a thought bubble by PTV too have something flashy in their 2008 NDP video.

Not sure how one justifies the money, Werribee post MM1 will not need additional track capacity for decades. Once through routed with Sandringham it will have capacity for up to 24TPH. Then another pair of dedicated tunnels for 6 Geelong trains an hour?

Metro 2 didn't even have anything to do with the west, it primary objective was to add additional capacity to the Clifton Hill Group to cater for a future Doncaster Service. SRL has killed any direct link from Doncaster to the CBD, additional capacity for 6 TPH on the Clifton Hill Group is no longer needed. The only remaining problem is cleaning up the Clifton Hill Junction, Clifton Hill to City Loop has capacity for 24TPH. 12 to Mernda, 12 to Hurstbridge, no need for additional capacity for decades.

Metro 2 is to some RP users what Doncaster and Rowville were to Transport Planners for decades. I thought bubble that turned into a line on a map that silly politicians couldn't give up, so they spent millions on business cases expecting each new one to give a different answer to the previous one.

As for the regional network, our stupid obsession with speed needs to stop. Its not the biggest issue on the regional network and spending billions to push trains to 200km to shave a few minutes is only helpful to the lucky few that board an express service. For everyone that commutes between the regional centre and the suburban boundary its useless.

Frequency and reliability are the issues that need solving. Commuters want to know that if they get on a 6am train they will arrive at there destination at the same time every day, without having to wait an hour for the next service. Every 20 minutes to the regional centres then every 40/60 to the far reaches of the network. Maybe then a conversation around higher speed trains will be relevant.

Lockie

I'd love to correct Lockie especially in terms of dismissing the Melbourne metro 2 concept.

First of all the dates are completely wrong. 2008 is the date that saw the release of the Eddington report and the Brumby's Transport Plan. It was 2012 that saw the release of the PTV network development plan.
True Believers
The only this you do get to correct me on.

Sir Rod Eddington delivered the East West Assessment, which formed the bases of the Brumby Governments too little too late transport agenda in 2008. It was, as you said, in 2012 that PTV which was established by the then Baillieu that delivered the Network Development Plan. This was at the same time they commisioned the latest Doncaster Study. PTV released the preferred alignment for Doncaster in October 2012, two years before the final report was released in 2014.

The line was on the map before the final report was released. As it was know by PTV that additional capacity would be needed between Clifton Hill and The City Loop.

It was around 2015 in the Herald Sun, which is where they coined the term "Metro 2" when the Parkville station was being planned for a provision for a future second tunnel. This is when the Werribee end was included later on as one tunnel.
True Believers

The phrase Metro 2 was coined before 2015, PTV called it a second metro tunnel, it wasn't too hard for the hun to swap the two words around. Parkville was not pre panned back in 2015. This was done by the current Andrews government. The original 2012 PTV NDP has the line travelling via Parkville to Fishermen's bend. The Baillieu government via Mathew Guy had just rezoned all of Fisherman's bend, a future metro line was a good selling point to future developers. Werribee was not added until the refresh of the NDP when someone decided to draw a line across the Yarra.

As for provisions, they are just bored piles. Deep enough to allow future construction below the current platforms.

The issue Lockie forgot to mention was the forgotten Wollert rail line, branching off from Lalor. This would put an extra 6 tph onto the Mernda corridor and therefore would need to be separated anyways. The Wollert line isn't too far fetched, the whole corridor is preserved unlike the Doncaster one so will be relatively easy to build.
True Believers

I didn't mention it as it falls into the same category as Doncaster, just a line on a map. The majority of the corridor is reserved, land around Lalor isn't. Doncaster had a predicted catchment of 56,000 by 2050, Wollert will be even less. It far fetched, no business case or study has been commissioned to detail the costs and service provisions. It did appear in a leaked rail map in 2018 which was titled stage 6, with stage one being Metro 1 day one. Still 20 years away, if ever.


As for the western section, honestly you could easily squeeze the Werribee line and airport line services to justify the western end of it. Regional services can continue to use the regional rail link. And Melton/Wydnham services can easily fit into the metro tunnel with room to spare. I think Lockie has forgotten that for the western end it would definitely speed up travel from the western suburbs dramatically by removing the existing dog-leg going up to Footscray and back down to Southern Cross, the fact the West Gate Freeway is more direct than the Werribee line, makes it less competitive to car travel. You're right the capacity is sufficient at the western end, but having that direct route would make train travel in the western suburbs so much more attractive. You could easily save 10 minutes cutting through the Yarra.
True Believers

Now you just sound like the poor transport planners that had to sell Doncaster. You DONT add lines that have capacity into a $20 Billion tunnel to justify it. Justification happens when those current corridors have no additional capacity to serve the population and a new route is required. We are a long long way away from that happening in Werribee, once the 24TPH are at crush load everyday then a conversation around additional capacity is needed.

It could save 10 minutes.... is not why you build a tunnel. This is the poor freeway argument that politicians like to use when they spend hundreds of millions on new freeways lanes. For just $500 million you can get to the city 3 minutes faster. It sells when you are sitting in traffic, reality is within a year or so induced demand has eaten what ever benefit was constructed.

Services every 10 minutes all day makes train travel attractive, not saving ten minutes.


I do however agree that the attention of pushing the second Melbourne metro tunnel as a glorified solution into solving all of Melbourne's rail network is completely untrue. A lot of other projects need to implemented that could easily be better at adding additional capacity with less expenditure. One of the projects also noted in the PTV plan that gets very little flashy attention is the city loop configuration project. It doesn't add any station but would enable more trains to use the city loop more effectively by having more cross-city travel. There are countless of other ones such as implementing more high capacity signalling across the network.
True Believers

The only thing I do agree with, pushing Metro 2 as some kind of be all crystal ball to Melbourne's transport woes is sad. It not and never will be. Addressing long standing issues that effect everyone everyday is how you fix it. The City Loop reconfiguration is a great example of this. So is fixing Clifton Hill Junction, High Capacity Signalling and TRAINS EVERY 10 MINUTES. Once we've fixed the existing network, improved signalling technology and pushed everything we can out of it, then new ideas like Metro 2 need to be discussed and planed.  

All Metro 2 was, was flashy marketing to sell Doncaster Rail and Fishermen's Bend. It wasn't needed then and isn't now. If it was, it would of been announced at the last election. SRL was chosen and is a far better project for Melbourne.

Lockie
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
I don't believe it's a downgrade for Geelong trains to have a stopping all service metro style service. Sydney has had intercity electrified lines to Newcastle, Wollongong and to the Blue Mountains for many years, it's about time we had the same.

High speed express trains should only be considered after we have an electric intercity network, it's kinda silly to express over just a few stops to save very little time. Honestly with how contraint we can spend the money, I think it's better to get the regional lines electrified and duplicated before considering express services, just a waste of time currently. Build the high speed network to Sydney where the distance is much longer and the express services have dramatic time savings. Geelong high speed trains ain't needed for 20 years or even needed at all. Just a political move to be honest with you.
True Believers
NSW TrainLink services don't stop all stations and most still use their own platforms at Central.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

Sorry, John, I didn't check the official timetable.  Timetable Tuesday is an enthusiast's blog.
  TrackRailroad Train Controller

Location: Frankston Line
4 tunnels is a little bit over doing it. Melbourne Metro 2 tunnels only require 2 tunnels. Geelong line will be part of the Metro system in the future, why need to have 4 tunnels?
The only "Melbourne" thing Geelong gets is TV.

There's no reason why Werribee metro can't be extended to Lara, and a Geelong Metro run from Lara to Waurn Ponds/Torquay/Drysdale (with Flagship Geelong trains running Colac (sometimes)-Waurn Ponds-Geelong-Lara-City, all other stations only served by metro SAS services).

But it would be an extremely large downgrade to run Geelong trains SAS to Melbourne, whilst Ballarat and Bendigo trains run express from Melton and Sunbury.

Really, Geelong trains should be running express from Lara into the City (with Werribee to Lara turned into a metro service). It's just as greenfields as the Sunbury line is beyond watergardens.
John.Z
Werribee trains currently are very busy at peak times (pre covid anyway, which will likely return to normal levels when the pandemic dies down) so I don't know if they would have extra capacity to support Lara commuters too.

I think the Werribee metro line needs to be extended to Wyndham Vale to terminate there to provide an improved connection between the Geelong and Werribee lines. Wyndham Vale short V-line services could be extended to Lara and stop all stations Lara to Sunshine than express to Southern Cross, and Geelong services running express Lara to Southern Cross stopping at Wyndham Vale pick up and drop off only for interchaning passengers. This of course requires 4 tracks between Sunshine and Wyndham Vale, there should be room to do this given it is in a newly developed area.

With more frequent services you can run all day and night two tier service, Lara Vline stopping all stations that would have capacity for the growing areas of Tarneit and Wyndham Vale and than a proper express service for Geelong passengers, express Lara to Southern Cross which would not be as overcrowded as now due to not stopping at Wyndham Vale or Tarneit anymore to pick up passengers.

I think passengers would rather a more reliable and frequent service, versus saving a few minutes for a higher speed journey, and massive expense to impose high speed electrification.  Medium term a semi-fast train to Geelong if the population and travel movements and economics justify this can be considered.

In regards to Metro 2 I think it is a good project once the above is done and there is sufficient demand, but if high capacity signalling is implemented Newport to Southern Cross and quadruplication Wyndham Vale to Sunshine combined with more frequent services, this would create far better public transport services for people in Wyndham, Hobsons bay and Geelong area.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Sir Rod Eddington delivered the East West Assessment, which formed the bases of the Brumby Governments too little too late transport agenda in 2008. It was, as you said, in 2012 that PTV which was established by the then Baillieu that delivered the Network Development Plan. This was at the same time they commisioned the latest Doncaster Study. PTV released the preferred alignment for Doncaster in October 2012, two years before the final report was released in 2014.

The line was on the map before the final report was released. As it was know by PTV that additional capacity would be needed between Clifton Hill and The City Loop.
Lockie91
I can agree with that. Both the Doncaster and Rowville studies findings were put together into the PTV network development plan, they were all delivered together under the Ted Ballieu government. And the route of the second metro tunnel was proposed as a way to enable capacity to put the Doncaster rail line into the picture.

At the current stage, the Doncaster railway proposal that's currently being considered is the orbital route (which surprisingly was knocked out as a viable option in the Doncaster study). This puts some doubts on the viability of the second Metro tunnel.

The phrase Metro 2 was coined before 2015, PTV called it a second metro tunnel, it wasn't too hard for the hun to swap the two words around. Parkville was not pre panned back in 2015. This was done by the current Andrews government. The original 2012 PTV NDP has the line travelling via Parkville to Fishermen's bend. The Baillieu government via Mathew Guy had just rezoned all of Fisherman's bend, a future metro line was a good selling point to future developers. Werribee was not added until the refresh of the NDP when someone decided to draw a line across the Yarra.

As for provisions, they are just bored piles. Deep enough to allow future construction below the current platforms.
Lockie91
What I was trying to say was when the original Melbourne metro tunnel started to be revived under the Andrews government, the news started pay attention on the prospects of the second tunnel, using the term "Metro 2", the hun was the first news source to acknowledge that the Metro Tunnel project has left room for the second tunnel. This is the first time we have seen provision for that particular project.

When the PTV network plan was released in 2012, in the news most of the future proposals wasn't taken very seriously (for good reason due to government inaction) , it was only during the progress on Metro 1, the news were more accustomed to accept the second tunnel as a serious project into the future.

In the original NDP, they left a note that the tunnel would connect at a future date (probably as a future stage). The updated one, pushed it into two part project, including the missing section to Werribee.



I didn't mention it as it falls into the same category as Doncaster, just a line on a map. The majority of the corridor is reserved, land around Lalor isn't. Doncaster had a predicted catchment of 56,000 by 2050, Wollert will be even less. It far fetched, no business case or study has been commissioned to detail the costs and service provisions. It did appear in a leaked rail map in 2018 which was titled stage 6, with stage one being Metro 1 day one. Still 20 years away, if ever.
Lockie91
This is where I disagree, the Wollert rail branch doesn't fall in the same category as Doncaster. Doncaster rail has been an on and off project for 100 years never seeing the light of day. Whereas this corridor is relatively new and planned ahead of the development, which is surprising. It all depends on the politics of the day whether it happens sooner or later. Eventually there will be community movement on the matter when the area is fully built up. After all, Mernda rail happened much sooner than most would of predicted, due to the community movement and the politics aligning together.

I'm not saying this line will be built soon, but it's definitely within the 10-20 year time-frame. Plenty of time to decide to add capacity on the Mernda line, but the Wollert corridor catchment is growing so it can't be underestimated as a project into the future.


Now you just sound like the poor transport planners that had to sell Doncaster. You DON'T add lines that have capacity into a $20 Billion tunnel to justify it. Justification happens when those current corridors have no additional capacity to serve the population and a new route is required. We are a long long way away from that happening in Werribee, once the 24TPH are at crush load everyday then a conversation around additional capacity is needed.

It could save 10 minutes.... is not why you build a tunnel. This is the poor freeway argument that politicians like to use when they spend hundreds of millions on new freeways lanes. For just $500 million you can get to the city 3 minutes faster. It sells when you are sitting in traffic, reality is within a year or so induced demand has eaten what ever benefit was constructed.

Services every 10 minutes all day makes train travel attractive, not saving ten minutes.
Lockie91
I didn't say the 10 minute saving makes the secondary tunnel a viable alternative right now. I'm saying that's an additional benefit, if it ever does go ahead, obviously frequency takes priority over speed. Whenever the Werribee corridor does reach that critical 24tph, then the tunnel will viable to construct. This is correct that it will take it's time, probably 20 years time.

I was just mentioning you could bring forward the project by 10 years by allowing additional services using the tunnel until the Werribee line reaches it's capacity. While this isn't the ideal outcome, it's just something that could be considered. Honestly don't think the secondary tunnel is the way forward (right now but much later) as you read the last section saying there are better alternatives that could be considered to add capacity in a economical way ahead of the tunnel.


The only thing I do agree with, pushing Metro 2 as some kind of be all crystal ball to Melbourne's transport woes is sad. It not and never will be. Addressing long standing issues that effect everyone everyday is how you fix it. The City Loop reconfiguration is a great example of this. So is fixing Clifton Hill Junction, High Capacity Signalling and TRAINS EVERY 10 MINUTES. Once we've fixed the existing network, improved signalling technology and pushed everything we can out of it, then new ideas like Metro 2 need to be discussed and planed.

All Metro 2 was, was flashy marketing to sell Doncaster Rail and Fishermen's Bend. It wasn't needed then and isn't now. If it was, it would of been announced at the last election. SRL was chosen and is a far better project for Melbourne.
Lockie91
I think we are mostly on the same page here, it's just my explanation needed some work. I really do hope other projects will be considered as a priority above the metro 2 concept, since there are alternatives that can be considered that greatly improve the network at a better cost.

I do however think somewhere down the line the second tunnel could be considered, whenever fisherman's bend development, the long forgotten Wollert corridor and the growing demand on the Werribee corridor supports it. At the moment it's just not ready to be justified as of yet, when there are other priorities on the network to be considered first.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

I don't believe it's a downgrade for Geelong trains to have a stopping all service metro style service. Sydney has had intercity electrified lines to Newcastle, Wollongong and to the Blue Mountains for many years, it's about time we had the same.

High speed express trains should only be considered after we have an electric intercity network, it's kinda silly to express over just a few stops to save very little time. Honestly with how contraint we can spend the money, I think it's better to get the regional lines electrified and duplicated before considering express services, just a waste of time currently. Build the high speed network to Sydney where the distance is much longer and the express services have dramatic time savings. Geelong high speed trains ain't needed for 20 years or even needed at all. Just a political move to be honest with you.
True Believers
Yes a political move by the Coalition who really have no idea. If they think that they can provide a High Speed network covering the area that V/Line currently does within 8 years and for $16 Billion, then they have completely lost it. High speed networks require electrification and new alignments.

More of use to Geelong is frequent, reliable services, not high speed for a distance of 80 kilometres.


Michael
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

Werribee trains currently are very busy at peak times (pre covid anyway, which will likely return to normal levels when the pandemic dies down) so I don't know if they would have extra capacity to support Lara commuters too.
TrackRailroad
Werribee trains run at 7tph at peak. 7.
Newport Station sees 16tph at peak when you include Laverton SAS + Williamstown trains

With Metro 2, there is ample track capacity to increase the tph to werribee as well as extend some trains to Lara.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Sorry Bevans but I must comment on this. V/Line is not a great organisation, but you cannot blame V/Line for not matching ScotRail. ScotRail from its creation has been well resourced and funded not just by the UK Government but capital grants from the Scottish Assembly and the EU. They have developed with input from those agencies a long term and coherent plan.

V/Line has had no such input until the Andrews Government took power. V/Line has been consistently defunded from the get go. The organisation can only do as much as their budget and the incumbent Government allows them. They barely had enough money to buy decent rollingstock, and as a result we still have old life expired stock running on our rails in 2020.
mejhammers1

I understand your viewpoint but is it not time this was addressed with a considerable investment from the federal and state governments?  V/Line is the largest (well probably) regional passenger rail operator (I was thinking of queensland being the other) and deserves the ability to look to electrification (which has now been business cased and plans to reduce carbon emissions.

The real issue is the government cannot look to this when it knows it needs to and should rather they are looking to spend $20b on the toll road called the north east link.  

For someone looking in from outside this country we really do look like a bunch of environmental vandals.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Sorry Bevans but I must comment on this. V/Line is not a great organisation, but you cannot blame V/Line for not matching ScotRail. ScotRail from its creation has been well resourced and funded not just by the UK Government but capital grants from the Scottish Assembly and the EU. They have developed with input from those agencies a long term and coherent plan.

V/Line has had no such input until the Andrews Government took power. V/Line has been consistently defunded from the get go. The organisation can only do as much as their budget and the incumbent Government allows them. They barely had enough money to buy decent rollingstock, and as a result we still have old life expired stock running on our rails in 2020.

I understand your viewpoint but is it not time this was addressed with a considerable investment from the federal and state governments?  V/Line is the largest (well probably) regional passenger rail operator (I was thinking of queensland being the other) and deserves the ability to look to electrification (which has now been business cased and plans to reduce carbon emissions.

The real issue is the government cannot look to this when it knows it needs to and should rather they are looking to spend $20b on the toll road called the north east link.  

For someone looking in from outside this country we really do look like a bunch of environmental vandals.
bevans
You have answered my question. The development of V/Line as an organisation depends on Government Input. V/Line is at least 15 Years behind ScotRail.

Michael
  TrackRailroad Train Controller

Location: Frankston Line
Werribee trains currently are very busy at peak times (pre covid anyway, which will likely return to normal levels when the pandemic dies down) so I don't know if they would have extra capacity to support Lara commuters too.
Werribee trains run at 7tph at peak. 7.
Newport Station sees 16tph at peak when you include Laverton SAS + Williamstown trains

With Metro 2, there is ample track capacity to increase the tph to werribee as well as extend some trains to Lara.
John.Z
Yes with Metro 2 ( if this is ever built) and higher capacity trains, some Werribee services may be able to be extended to Lara, though I think extending Wyndham Vale short services to Lara is better as there are fewer stations, between Wyndham Vale and the City on the VLine path. Hoppers Crossing, Williams Landing and Laverton are very busy and I think extending to Lara may add to overcrowding.

It seems we need to improve the signalling and existing track capacity on the Newport lines, have greater development in Fishermens Bend and pressure for the Woolert rail line to be developed, to enable the economics to be justfied for Metro 2.
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

I didn't mention it as it falls into the same category as Doncaster, just a line on a map. The majority of the corridor is reserved, land around Lalor isn't. Doncaster had a predicted catchment of 56,000 by 2050, Wollert will be even less. It far fetched, no business case or study has been commissioned to detail the costs and service provisions. It did appear in a leaked rail map in 2018 which was titled stage 6, with stage one being Metro 1 day one. Still 20 years away, if ever.

This is where I disagree, the Wollert rail branch doesn't fall in the same category as Doncaster. Doncaster rail has been an on and off project for 100 years never seeing the light of day. Whereas this corridor is relatively new and planned ahead of the development, which is surprising. It all depends on the politics of the day whether it happens sooner or later. Eventually there will be community movement on the matter when the area is fully built up. After all, Mernda rail happened much sooner than most would of predicted, due to the community movement and the politics aligning together. I'm not saying this line will be built soon, but it's definitely within the 10-20 year time-frame. Plenty of time to decide to add capacity on the Mernda line, but the Wollert corridor catchment is growing so it can't be underestimated as a project into the future.

Lockie91


I still think the project is a long way off, 20+ years is still pushing it. Current population is around 9,000, forecast to roughly 40,000 by 2041. (All pre COVID) Even if 10% of the forecast population was to use PT by 2041 it is still not enough to justify the billion it will cost to construct heavy rail. If development was to push further towards Donnybrook this might change. The area just needs a good high frequency bus route. It currently has routes 357 & 358 both feeding into Epping, both not overly direct with the travel time from the terminus to Epping taking 20 - 30 minutes.

The Clifton Hill Group will be unaffected by MM1, Craigieburn will have a lot more space once Sunbury is removed from the Northern Loop. Wollert to Craigieburn Station via Craigieburn Road East is 11 minutes. You could run a high frequency (every 10 minute) service between Craigieburn and Epping Stations Via Craigieburn Road East and Epping Road, this two major roads slice through the current estates. Craigieburn will have more room to cater for the two or three thousand that might travel from Wollert, then Mernda will.

Now a little history about the Wollert Rail Line AKA Aurora. This was never a state government transport project, it has never been mentioned by DOT. If we stretch our minds back to the EARLY 2000's some twenty years ago Aurora Estate was sold as Australia's first 100% eco community. Dedicated solar power, water treatment and everyone would walk, cycle or catch PT. The developers did one hell of a good sell with the marketing and had the residents believe that rail was a sure thing. Come 2007 when the Bracks Government launched Meeting Our Transport Challenges (MOTC) Aurora and now residents where pushing for heavy rail as an extension of the then Epping Line. This was never going to be the case as South Morang was where the action was happening and had the benefit of an existing corridor. Bracks is quoted as saying they will look into 'transport infrastructure' and increased bus services where coming.

By this time the City Of Whittlesea had already drawn up plans for Epping North including moving Epping Station to where the Northern Hospital currently is and have the line diverge - Aurora & South Morang Lines. Ever since the seed was planted by the developers of Aurora it has continued to hold in the minds of residents that were sold a transport Utopia. It raised its head again during the Victorian Transport Plan in 2008 and through the Baillieu/Naptime Government which decided not to introduce a Public Acquisition Overlay. No studies or business cases have been commissioned as Transport Planners do not think the area is in desperate need of heavy rail.

The best part about this little tale is the developer for Aurora was VicUrban the then development arm of the Victorian Government. You would think they would have spoken to someone from the DOT before selling the residents up the preverbal river.

Maybe in 2040 when all those 40,000 residents have moved in a study might happen. Currently a short stub line with one or two extra stations is not a reason to spend $20 billion on Metro 2. The only way I see this tunnel happening is if both Mernda and Werribee are at capacity and this isn't going to happen for a while.

I think we are mostly on the same page here, it's just my explanation needed some work. I really do hope other projects will be considered as a priority above the metro 2 concept, since there are alternatives that can be considered that greatly improve the network at a better cost.
True Believer
There are dozens of small to medium scale projects on the network that will boost capacity and performance. Junctions rationalisations at Newport, Burnley, Clifton Hill, Dandenong & Ringwood. Upfield duplication and Somerton Link. Duplication to Eltham, UFTG and the Altona Loop. High Capacity Signalling through the inner core. Priority level crossing removals. City Loop Reconfiguration. New Greenfield Timetable to remove Frankston from the loop, clean up the Burnley group and roll out 10 minute services network wide.

All of these could be rolled out for the cost of Metro 2.

Lockie
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Has there been a government or private sector response to this proposal and business case ?
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Has there been a government or private sector response to this proposal and business case ?
freightgate
No.  Minister Allan has in fact said their proposal does not stack up.
  Altona Loopy Station Master

I think post covid commuting habits and demand will be vastly different to what we were used to. I think all the discussion and planning for future improvements and expansion needs to be put on hold until life returns to 'normal'.

Many white collar commuters will work from home in the future with their employer's blessing. Employers, including mine, are planning for a much smaller workforce in its leased CBD buildings. It wont be renewing some leases when they fall due.

My employer, fully white collar, recently commenced to allow employees to return to its workplace if they wished. It planned for 20% of employees to return to its CBD premises but only 7% of employees did.

I wasn't surprised. My employer was delighted and I'm guessing the same result will occur across many CBD premises and workplaces. I really believe the demand for CBD bound PT will be nowhere near what it was in 2019.

Let's just see how the cards fall post-covid.
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
I think primarily peak demand will be greatly reduced, but demand over the day and into the evening will increase overall.

People will still have to travel into the office at various points during the week - some people may have to come into the city for a meeting in the morning, then head home for the afternoon or vice versa.

There are also plenty of other reasons to journey into the city that will slowly recover over the next few years, theatre, sporting events, cultural events, dining, bars etc. If you are working from home all week, the ability to go out on a Thursday, Friday, weekend afternoon becomes more important.

Peak demand exists because of traditional work hours, but also because it is easier to catch a train in peak. We need to make it easier to catch a train at other times of the day so that the load is spread out. 10 minute minimum frequencies across all lines is something that is desperately needed to cater for this.

Even if CBD travel is reduced, suburban travel may increase as a counter for this. Access from outer suburbs to suburban hubs like Watergardens, Ringwood, Monash Uni and other major places need frequent connections.
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

I think primarily peak demand will be greatly reduced, but demand over the day and into the evening will increase overall.

People will still have to travel into the office at various points during the week - some people may have to come into the city for a meeting in the morning, then head home for the afternoon or vice versa.

There are also plenty of other reasons to journey into the city that will slowly recover over the next few years, theatre, sporting events, cultural events, dining, bars etc. If you are working from home all week, the ability to go out on a Thursday, Friday, weekend afternoon becomes more important.

Peak demand exists because of traditional work hours, but also because it is easier to catch a train in peak. We need to make it easier to catch a train at other times of the day so that the load is spread out. 10 minute minimum frequencies across all lines is something that is desperately needed to cater for this.

Even if CBD travel is reduced, suburban travel may increase as a counter for this. Access from outer suburbs to suburban hubs like Watergardens, Ringwood, Monash Uni and other major places need frequent connections.
TOQ-1

That is a good point. We may well find the "peak period" dilutes and then spreads across much of the work day.

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