Suburban Rail Loop (Election promise)

 
  tayser Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Skyrailing SRL would take a hammer to the one of the advantages of an underground route: speed/travel times.

Elevated tracks would need to follow major road medians, negotiate tight corners and probably have a real (not perceived real due to media beat-up (Caulfield-Oakleigh skyrail)) public backlash which would be unwelcome.

The docs release to date have the Cheltenham(or Southland) to Box Hill segment with a travel time of 20 minutes... which is lightning fast that would possibly be achievable with elevated tracks up the guts of Warrigal Road or further over on Springvale Road but it'd miss connecting Monash (on a Warrigal Road route) and would probably not connect with Box hill on a Springvale Road route.  

No moron is going to propose demolishing houses for elevated rail pylons so the route can be more direct and link the same amount of nodes the current stage 1 will look to do.

Based on the map of drill sites so far (via [url=https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=16HpNWuvysZAhpH3IOkZvmvDvf8x2XE6E&ll=-37.904797014764384%2C145.13598441967545&z=14]operational incident on twitter[/url]), I did a very rough back of an envelope calculation on distance and times based on the assumption the rolling stock will perform like the Almost Metropolis trains specifically built for Sydney metro.

repost from SSC.

  • Southland-Clayton section is ~8.5-9km.
  • Clayton-Monash is ~2km
  • Monash-Glen Waverley is ~4.5km
  • Glen Waverley-Deakin is ~6.5km
  • Deakin-Box hill is ~3-3.5km
Assumption: (Broadly using stats from the Alstom Metropolis platform specifically built for Sydney Metro) Trains will have 1m/s2 acceleration rate, top speed of 120kph (I've heard 130kph speeds been talked about previously - one of the many things I'd like to see confirmed in the business case whenever/if ever it's friggun well released this year).

20 second stops at each station + ~40 seconds to reach top / near top speed (in which you'd have travelled about ~550-600m), the Southland/Cheltenham-Clayton journey would be:

1 minute (station stop + time to get to top speed) + 6.5-7.0km @ ~100-120kph (~3m55s-3m15s) + 1 min to slow down for Clayton. Let's just say ~6 minutes from Southland to Clayton.

Clayton-Monash would probably not hit top speed, but a ~3ish minute journey.

Monash-Glen Waverley: 1 + 1m30s-1m50s + 1 (~4 min) journey

Glen Waverley-Deakin: 1 + 2-2m30s + 1 (~5 min) journey

Deakin-Box Hill: 1 + 1-1m15s + 1 (3.5 min) journey.

6 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 3.5 = 21.5 minutes end to end.  Note I know I've double-counted stopping time (2 x 20 seconds) at stations - it's padding and there's probably other areas where there's padding too.

Pretty close to the maps on Strategic Assessment docs.

In short: no elevated route is going to link as many nodes nor as fast as the underground route.

Sponsored advertisement

  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
Skyrailing SRL would take a hammer to the one of the advantages of an underground route: speed/travel times.

Elevated tracks would need to follow major road medians, negotiate tight corners and probably have a real (not perceived real due to media beat-up (Caulfield-Oakleigh skyrail)) public backlash which would be unwelcome.

The docs release to date have the Cheltenham(or Southland) to Box Hill segment with a travel time of 20 minutes... which is lightning fast that would possibly be achievable with elevated tracks up the guts of Warrigal Road or further over on Springvale Road but it'd miss connecting Monash (on a Warrigal Road route) and would probably not connect with Box hill on a Springvale Road route.  

No moron is going to propose demolishing houses for elevated rail pylons so the route can be more direct and link the same amount of nodes the current stage 1 will look to do.

Based on the map of drill sites so far (via operational incident on twitter), I did a very rough back of an envelope calculation on distance and times based on the assumption the rolling stock will perform like the Almost Metropolis trains specifically built for Sydney metro.

repost from SSC.

  • EDIT a bunch of good analysis, for brevity only.

Pretty close to the maps on Strategic Assessment docs.

In short: no elevated route is going to link as many nodes nor as fast as the underground route.
thanks for the effort @tayser
now clear from the drill holes that the station of interest at the Cheltenham end is

Southland Station, 1239 Nepean Hwy, Cheltenham

Sensible choice

cheers
John
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
We struggle to get trains going above 80 a straight line in the suburban network, I really can't imagine 120 km/h. Case in point, East Richmond to Burnley despite most Lilydale/Belgrave trains being express through both. Given no traffic and all green lights, the 70 tram is probably quicker!
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

We struggle to get trains going above 80 a straight line in the suburban network, I really can't imagine 120 km/h. Case in point, East Richmond to Burnley despite most Lilydale/Belgrave trains being express through both. Given no traffic and all green lights, the 70 tram is probably quicker!
Heihachi_73
The 70 tram is definitely not quicker, although theoretically it could be which paints a poor picture for both trains and trams in the area.
  NSWGR8022 Deputy Commissioner

Location: From the lands of Journalism and Free Speech
SRL first development will start at Southland according to https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/suburban-rail-loop-starting-point-could-shift-north-and-link-to-southland-shopping-centre potentially linking the new station with the new network hopefully they will connect Chadstone cause in my opinion this would be a better option to start moving people from the large centre to the suburbs.
  trainbrain Chief Commissioner

It would be interesting to see if there are stages where they employ both skyrail and tunnelling to reduce the need for excessively deep tunnel and steep grades. China's got some pretty nice examples of train lines coming out of the hills onto a large viaduct, so we could surely enact that on a simpler and smaller scale if need be here.
Attractive idea with one big caveat.

No way will it ever include a skyrail over the Yarra Valley. Elections are lost for a lot less.
Even rural punters , who rarely give a toss about Melbourne aesthetics, would think that a bridge too far.

PS  I deliberately said "skyrail" instead of "viaduct". That is the reality of Victoria politics for the foreseeable future

cheers
John
justarider
The Yarra Valley already had a Skyraili the form of a two mile Wooden Bridge that extended over the Yarra Flats from McIntyres Lane to just short of Yarra Glen station.
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
It would be interesting to see if there are stages where they employ both skyrail and tunnelling to reduce the need for excessively deep tunnel and steep grades. China's got some pretty nice examples of train lines coming out of the hills onto a large viaduct, so we could surely enact that on a simpler and smaller scale if need be here.
Attractive idea with one big caveat.

No way will it ever include a skyrail over the Yarra Valley. Elections are lost for a lot less.
Even rural punters , who rarely give a toss about Melbourne aesthetics, would think that a bridge too far.

PS  I deliberately said "skyrail" instead of "viaduct". That is the reality of Victoria politics for the foreseeable future

cheers
John
The Yarra Valley already had a Skyraili the form of a two mile Wooden Bridge that extended over the Yarra Flats from McIntyres Lane to just short of Yarra Glen station.
trainbrain
That was a product of 19th century technology and thinking, ultimately unfit for purpose, and no longer there anyway except for some not very high embankments.  Of what possible relevance to the SRL  (which will not be going to that area anyway)?
  TrackRailroad Train Controller

Location: Frankston Line
SRL first development will start at Southland according to https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/suburban-rail-loop-starting-point-could-shift-north-and-link-to-southland-shopping-centre potentially linking the new station with the new network hopefully they will connect Chadstone cause in my opinion this would be a better option to start moving people from the large centre to the suburbs.
NSWGR8022
Southland makes much more strategic sense than Cheltenham, given Southland is a major shopping centre, with access to the bus interchange and there is significantly more room to construct the Southland Station given there is a lot of car parking and Sir William Fry Reserve is opposite.

I don't think the SRL should go via Chadstone, it would have to make a sharp 90 degree turn to still cover Monash and than continue on to Glen Waverley. I think express buses or light rail or ultimately heavy rail to Chadstone Shopping Centre would work more effectively, the light rail plan from Caulfield to Rowville with an extension from Chadstone to Alamein would create multiple connections to nearby train lines and activity centres.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

Chadstone is better served as an extension of the Alamein Line to Oakleigh, with all the trimmings and options one might desire around such a project. It's too far in (as in close to the CBD) for the SRL, whose current plan from Airport to Cheltenham is pretty much locked, and solid too. It goes awry from there (should remain out wide, not via Sunshine) but that's a whole other discussion.
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

Chadstone is better served as an extension of the Alamein Line to Oakleigh, with all the trimmings and options one might desire around such a project. It's too far in (as in close to the CBD) for the SRL, whose current plan from Airport to Cheltenham is pretty much locked, and solid too. It goes awry from there (should remain out wide, not via Sunshine) but that's a whole other discussion.
John.Z
Agreed.

You could extend the line to East Malvern using the current reservation and then do a very un-Victorian 'change ends' and head off to Chadstone.  

Or you gold plate it and tunnel from Alamein to Homesglen with and Underground interchange and then on to Chadstone.  But then one has to as the question. Do you spend the extra and extend it the 1.5km to Oakleigh?

and yes, the Northern section of the SRL is majorly under baked.

Lockie
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

Agreed.

You could extend the line to East Malvern using the current reservation and then do a very un-Victorian 'change ends' and head off to Chadstone.  

Or you gold plate it and tunnel from Alamein to Homesglen with and Underground interchange and then on to Chadstone.  But then one has to as the question. Do you spend the extra and extend it the 1.5km to Oakleigh?

and yes, the Northern section of the SRL is majorly under baked.

Lockie
Lockie91
East Malvern to Chadstone is perfectly do-able without needing to change ends. Would be my preferred route.

The SRL between Airport and Werribee is a joke, not sure why anyone takes it seriously, but seeing as most posters live out east, they just want that Airport-Sunshine link without thinking about what it means for the commuters out west.
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

Agreed.

You could extend the line to East Malvern using the current reservation and then do a very un-Victorian 'change ends' and head off to Chadstone.  

Or you gold plate it and tunnel from Alamein to Homesglen with and Underground interchange and then on to Chadstone.  But then one has to as the question. Do you spend the extra and extend it the 1.5km to Oakleigh?

and yes, the Northern section of the SRL is majorly under baked.

Lockie
East Malvern to Chadstone is perfectly do-able without needing to change ends. Would be my preferred route.

The SRL between Airport and Werribee is a joke, not sure why anyone takes it seriously, but seeing as most posters live out east, they just want that Airport-Sunshine link without thinking about what it means for the commuters out west.
I was giving the budget option, but with all the trimmings yes its very much doable.

Use the existing alignment and construct a tunnel portal at Ryburne Ave, tunnel under Gardeners Creek to a new underground interchange station at East Malvern. A sweeping curve under the burbs to put the tunnel in alignment with Chadstone.... Continue tunnelling under Warragul Road to an ultimate terminus at Oakleigh. 'Inner Rail Loop' Razz Connecting the Ringwood Group to the Dandenong Group. If you want stuffing too, extend the No.3 & No.67 Trams to East Malvern to establish a connection between Glen Waverley, Caulfield and Sandringham Lines. Introduce a Developer Contributions Tax in the area for 20 years to help recover funds. Make it 50 years for Chaddy, considering they will benifit the most from it.

As for the SRL:

I must be one the poor few that live in the West.

A CBD - Sunshine - Airport Link is going to be built regardless of SRL. I think lumping it altogether showed how little effort they put into the west compared with the east. Commuters from the east could easily interchange at the Airport to continue their journey to Sunshine.  

A more logical route would be to continue on to Watergardens (Major employment and retail hub), a possible station somewhere in Taylors Hill. There is no anchor point like a retail hub, it's just masses of houses.
Station at Caroline Springs Town Centre, another major retail and employment hub, Interchange stations at Caroline Springs.

After here there are two options, go wide and build a couple of new stations in the Greenfield suburbs and terminate at Werribee. Or head straight to Hoppers Crossing and a final station in the transport black hole that is Point Cook.
Hoppers Crossing seems to be a more logical interchange point than Werribee. Hoppers has Victoria University, Melbourne University, Mercy Hospital and abuts the East Werribee Employment Precinct (if it ever happens). These are all going to be major trip generators.  

I think intersecting the future Melton Line before Sunshine is a priority. Sunshine is already planned to be a major interchange station for Metro lines to Melton, Wyndham Vale & Sunbury, Airport Line and Regional Lines to Ballarat, Geelong & Bendigo. That is a lot of people.
Ballarat & Melton Pax could interchange at Caroline Springs to access employment and eduction in the West and connect to SRL to the East.
Bendigo & Sunbury could interchange at Watergardens to access the west and SRL to the East.
This reduce to reliance that all trains got to Sunshine.

Lockie
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner


As for the SRL:

I must be one the poor few that live in the West.

A CBD - Sunshine - Airport Link is going to be built regardless of SRL. I think lumping it altogether showed how little effort they put into the west compared with the east. Commuters from the east could easily interchange at the Airport to continue their journey to Sunshine.  

A more logical route would be to continue on to Watergardens (Major employment and retail hub), a possible station somewhere in Taylors Hill. There is no anchor point like a retail hub, it's just masses of houses.
Station at Caroline Springs Town Centre, another major retail and employment hub, Interchange stations at Caroline Springs.
Lockie91
MARL should be VLine Sunshine to Bendigo/Seymour. Removes another 2 VLine routes from Metro/Shared tracks. Makes too much sense.

SRL I agree, should be Airport, Watergardens SC, Caroline Springs (Melton Line Interchange), Tarneit, WV then Werribee. That's a proper rail loop in suburbia. The west will fill in, and the stations will promote sustainable density which further supports the station and investment.

Melton and Sunbury can share Metro 1 initially, with a plan to further segregate as track capacity is needed (Sunshine-Burnley tunnel to support a separate Local and Express Quad track pair to Box Hill/Alamein).
  CraigieburnLineUser Locomotive Fireman


As for the SRL:

I must be one the poor few that live in the West.

A CBD - Sunshine - Airport Link is going to be built regardless of SRL. I think lumping it altogether showed how little effort they put into the west compared with the east. Commuters from the east could easily interchange at the Airport to continue their journey to Sunshine.  

A more logical route would be to continue on to Watergardens (Major employment and retail hub), a possible station somewhere in Taylors Hill. There is no anchor point like a retail hub, it's just masses of houses.
Station at Caroline Springs Town Centre, another major retail and employment hub, Interchange stations at Caroline Springs. MARL should be VLine Sunshine to Bendigo/Seymour. Removes another 2 VLine routes from Metro/Shared tracks. Makes too much sense.

SRL I agree, should be Airport, Watergardens SC, Caroline Springs (Melton Line Interchange), Tarneit, WV then Werribee. That's a proper rail loop in suburbia. The west will fill in, and the stations will promote sustainable density which further supports the station and investment.

Melton and Sunbury can share Metro 1 initially, with a plan to further segregate as track capacity is needed (Sunshine-Burnley tunnel to support a separate Local and Express Quad track pair to Box Hill/Alamein).
John.Z
As someone in the North West I definitely agree that the route should follow this path, it makes sense for SRL to be forward planning and actually serve people out west. The other path which needs to be built (and I've definitely mentioned this before) is through Maribyrnong, Avondale Heights, East Keilor and Airport West before heading to the Airport. This would take these people off the Craigieburn and Sunbury lines. Since that will be out of the alignment for SRL the best route would be to extend the Special Events line (with the engineering challenges that would bring). I understand that all of this is Labor heartland so it'll never get done but a guy has to dream!
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller


As for the SRL:

I must be one the poor few that live in the West.

A CBD - Sunshine - Airport Link is going to be built regardless of SRL. I think lumping it altogether showed how little effort they put into the west compared with the east. Commuters from the east could easily interchange at the Airport to continue their journey to Sunshine.  

A more logical route would be to continue on to Watergardens (Major employment and retail hub), a possible station somewhere in Taylors Hill. There is no anchor point like a retail hub, it's just masses of houses.
Station at Caroline Springs Town Centre, another major retail and employment hub, Interchange stations at Caroline Springs. MARL should be VLine Sunshine to Bendigo/Seymour. Removes another 2 VLine routes from Metro/Shared tracks. Makes too much sense.

SRL I agree, should be Airport, Watergardens SC, Caroline Springs (Melton Line Interchange), Tarneit, WV then Werribee. That's a proper rail loop in suburbia. The west will fill in, and the stations will promote sustainable density which further supports the station and investment.

Melton and Sunbury can share Metro 1 initially, with a plan to further segregate as track capacity is needed (Sunshine-Burnley tunnel to support a separate Local and Express Quad track pair to Box Hill/Alamein).As someone in the North West I definitely agree that the route should follow this path, it makes sense for SRL to be forward planning and actually serve people out west. The other path which needs to be built (and I've definitely mentioned this before) is through Maribyrnong, Avondale Heights, East Keilor and Airport West before heading to the Airport. This would take these people off the Craigieburn and Sunbury lines. Since that will be out of the alignment for SRL the best route would be to extend the Special Events line (with the engineering challenges that would bring). I understand that all of this is Labor heartland so it'll never get done but a guy has to dream!
CraigieburnLineUser
This was floated by the Feds as they were selling defence land at Maribyrnong. Tunnel was going to be expensive and wouldn't have the same network wide benefits as Sunshine would. The bean counters couldn't make the cost benefit stack up.

The area is well served by trams, the No.57 tram should be extended to run the entire length of Milleara Road. (5.8km) This fills your Keilor East black hole. The route should then follow the current No.82 route to Footscray where passengers can interchange to Metro services every few minutes.

The No. 82 route should begin at Highpoint and turn right into Union Street to continue its journey to the CBD via the current 57 route. Thus deleting its useless connection to Moonee Ponds Junction. The missing 600m stretch is within walking distance to Ascot vale Station.

Upgrade both routes to light rail standard with E class or similar. Could be delivered for under a billion, much less than the 20B that was estimated for an underground connection. Light rail is also better suited to the relatively residential area and allows for greater inter suburban connections. Not everyone wants to go to the city.

Lockie
  CraigieburnLineUser Locomotive Fireman


As for the SRL:

I must be one the poor few that live in the West.

A CBD - Sunshine - Airport Link is going to be built regardless of SRL. I think lumping it altogether showed how little effort they put into the west compared with the east. Commuters from the east could easily interchange at the Airport to continue their journey to Sunshine.  

A more logical route would be to continue on to Watergardens (Major employment and retail hub), a possible station somewhere in Taylors Hill. There is no anchor point like a retail hub, it's just masses of houses.
Station at Caroline Springs Town Centre, another major retail and employment hub, Interchange stations at Caroline Springs. MARL should be VLine Sunshine to Bendigo/Seymour. Removes another 2 VLine routes from Metro/Shared tracks. Makes too much sense.

SRL I agree, should be Airport, Watergardens SC, Caroline Springs (Melton Line Interchange), Tarneit, WV then Werribee. That's a proper rail loop in suburbia. The west will fill in, and the stations will promote sustainable density which further supports the station and investment.

Melton and Sunbury can share Metro 1 initially, with a plan to further segregate as track capacity is needed (Sunshine-Burnley tunnel to support a separate Local and Express Quad track pair to Box Hill/Alamein).
-John

As someone in the North West I definitely agree that the route should follow this path, it makes sense for SRL to be forward planning and actually serve people out west. The other path which needs to be built (and I've definitely mentioned this before) is through Maribyrnong, Avondale Heights, East Keilor and Airport West before heading to the Airport. This would take these people off the Craigieburn and Sunbury lines. Since that will be out of the alignment for SRL the best route would be to extend the Special Events line (with the engineering challenges that would bring). I understand that all of this is Labor heartland so it'll never get done but a guy has to dream!
-Craigieburn Line User


This was floated by the Feds as they were selling defence land at Maribyrnong. Tunnel was going to be expensive and wouldn't have the same network wide benefits as Sunshine would. The bean counters couldn't make the cost benefit stack up.

The area is well served by trams, the No.57 tram should be extended to run the entire length of Milleara Road. (5.8km) This fills your Keilor East black hole. The route should then follow the current No.82 route to Footscray where passengers can interchange to Metro services every few minutes.

The No. 82 route should begin at Highpoint and turn right into Union Street to continue its journey to the CBD via the current 57 route. Thus deleting its useless connection to Moonee Ponds Junction. The missing 600m stretch is within walking distance to Ascot vale Station.

Upgrade both routes to light rail standard with E class or similar. Could be delivered for under a billion, much less than the 20B that was estimated for an underground connection. Light rail is also better suited to the relatively residential area and allows for greater inter suburban connections. Not everyone wants to go to the city.

Lockie
Lockie91
The Milleara Rd idea sounds good in theory, however it is a majorly busy road where the government are unlikely to sacrifice a lane each way for light rail. It’s also not really wide enough in most places for them to do so, so some other solution would need to be thought of there. I agree with your 82 tram idea as currently it’s a pretty useless tram route and should be redesigned.

Somehow though these areas should also have an easy link to SRL and that was where the airport connection came in
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner


As for the SRL:

I must be one the poor few that live in the West.

A CBD - Sunshine - Airport Link is going to be built regardless of SRL. I think lumping it altogether showed how little effort they put into the west compared with the east. Commuters from the east could easily interchange at the Airport to continue their journey to Sunshine.  

A more logical route would be to continue on to Watergardens (Major employment and retail hub), a possible station somewhere in Taylors Hill. There is no anchor point like a retail hub, it's just masses of houses.
Station at Caroline Springs Town Centre, another major retail and employment hub, Interchange stations at Caroline Springs. MARL should be VLine Sunshine to Bendigo/Seymour. Removes another 2 VLine routes from Metro/Shared tracks. Makes too much sense.

SRL I agree, should be Airport, Watergardens SC, Caroline Springs (Melton Line Interchange), Tarneit, WV then Werribee. That's a proper rail loop in suburbia. The west will fill in, and the stations will promote sustainable density which further supports the station and investment.

Melton and Sunbury can share Metro 1 initially, with a plan to further segregate as track capacity is needed (Sunshine-Burnley tunnel to support a separate Local and Express Quad track pair to Box Hill/Alamein).
John.Z
MARL should be VLine Sunshine to Bendigo/Seymour. Removes another 2 VLine routes from Metro/Shared tracks. Makes too much sense.

Totally agree and a tunnel is not needed. Just rehabilitate the Broad Gauge. I have been on that corridor on occasions travelling to Albury before COVID and apart from near Sims Street and the Bridge there seems to be enough room to have 3 to 4 tracks.



Michael
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
The area is well served by trams, the No.57 tram should be extended to run the entire length of Milleara Road. (5.8km) This fills your Keilor East black hole. The route should then follow the current No.82 route to Footscray where passengers can interchange to Metro services every few minutes.

The No. 82 route should begin at Highpoint and turn right into Union Street to continue its journey to the CBD via the current 57 route. Thus deleting its useless connection to Moonee Ponds Junction. The missing 600m stretch is within walking distance to Ascot vale Station.

Upgrade both routes to light rail standard with E class or similar. Could be delivered for under a billion, much less than the 20B that was estimated for an underground connection. Light rail is also better suited to the relatively residential area and allows for greater inter suburban connections. Not everyone wants to go to the city.

Lockie
Lockie91
Wasn't there an issue with curves around North Melbourne, being the sole reason why only short trams run on the 57? I know the 82 can run other trams though, when the B1(s?) did the farewell tour Footscray was one of the destinations. 57a can be run with B2s and Ds but they run "direct" via the 59 instead. The only tram route in that area worthy of light rail status is the 59, the 57 and 82 are too bus-like, for lack of better wording. Even the 59 fails to be a proper light rail, due to having way too many stops bunched together on the reserved track.

As for E class "or similar", the main problem is the serious lack of anything newer or larger than a B2. All 36 Citadises are at Kew Depot on the 109 and 48, almost all D1s are used exclusively on the 19, and all five (wow!) Bumblebees are exclusively on the 96 while the entire fleet of 90-odd E classes are exclusively on the northern routes 11/86/96 and now being wasted on the hopeless, inaccessible 58 as well (unless it never happened - I've never seen anything but a Z3, a B2 or a D1). With Bombardier suddenly being swallowed up by Alstom it has most likely thrown a spanner in the works regarding new trams (and trains) too, it will be anyone's guess with what happens at the former Comeng factory now.
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last

With Bombardier suddenly being swallowed up by Alstom it has most likely thrown a spanner in the works regarding new trams (and trains) too, it will be anyone's guess with what happens at the former Comeng factory now.
Heihachi_73
Perhaps Alsto-dier could get this thread back on topic and supply the rollingstock for SRL.
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
Won't they be by Changchun though like the HCMTs? Smile
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last

As for the SRL:

I must be one the poor few that live in the West.

A CBD - Sunshine - Airport Link is going to be built regardless of SRL. I think lumping it altogether showed how little effort they put into the west compared with the east. Commuters from the east could easily interchange at the Airport to continue their journey to Sunshine.  

A more logical route would be to continue on to Watergardens (Major employment and retail hub), a possible station somewhere in Taylors Hill. There is no anchor point like a retail hub, it's just masses of houses.
Station at Caroline Springs Town Centre, another major retail and employment hub, Interchange stations at Caroline Springs.

Lockie
Lockie91
Lockie its not an East vs West issue, nor poor me.

MARL is the undisputed start of all this.
At the airport , the obvious choice is TBM for tunnel the last km or so under the terminal.
Once that job is done, the TBM can head off for Broadmeadows.

Once done, the opportunity to run trains through to Broady will be compelling to achieve the missing link between West and North.

Extending the track further towards Box Hill to join somewhere, as SRL ,will however be an another decade.

In the meantime a hub at Sunshine has linked Geelong/Ballarat/Bendigo/Seymour(and their preceding Metro) with the airport and each other, plus of course the rest of Melbourne to the South and East via MM1.

That hub, with a 5-10 year head start, will have established travel patterns for pax to work their best way around.
Building a short-cut from Carolyn Springs via Watergardens to the airport would be of questionable value. A business case for it's owm merit.

As for an in-fill station at Carolyn Springs shopping centre,
compare that to the other in-fill at Monash Uni, Deakin Uni, Shoppingtown, Latrobe Uni. Not in the same league.

cheers
John
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.

As for the SRL:

I must be one the poor few that live in the West.

A CBD - Sunshine - Airport Link is going to be built regardless of SRL. I think lumping it altogether showed how little effort they put into the west compared with the east. Commuters from the east could easily interchange at the Airport to continue their journey to Sunshine.  

A more logical route would be to continue on to Watergardens (Major employment and retail hub), a possible station somewhere in Taylors Hill. There is no anchor point like a retail hub, it's just masses of houses.
Station at Caroline Springs Town Centre, another major retail and employment hub, Interchange stations at Caroline Springs. MARL should be VLine Sunshine to Bendigo/Seymour. Removes another 2 VLine routes from Metro/Shared tracks. Makes too much sense.

SRL I agree, should be Airport, Watergardens SC, Caroline Springs (Melton Line Interchange), Tarneit, WV then Werribee. That's a proper rail loop in suburbia. The west will fill in, and the stations will promote sustainable density which further supports the station and investment.

Melton and Sunbury can share Metro 1 initially, with a plan to further segregate as track capacity is needed (Sunshine-Burnley tunnel to support a separate Local and Express Quad track pair to Box Hill/Alamein).MARL should be VLine Sunshine to Bendigo/Seymour. Removes another 2 VLine routes from Metro/Shared tracks. Makes too much sense.

Totally agree and a tunnel is not needed. Just rehabilitate the Broad Gauge. I have been on that corridor on occasions travelling to Albury before COVID and apart from near Sims Street and the Bridge there seems to be enough room to have 3 to 4 tracks.



Michael
mejhammers1
Prior to COVID i travelled on that corridor (RRL side) on a regular basis.There is definitely enough room to do as you suggest with the exception of Footscray - you'd either need more property acquisition or to build platforms in the Bundury Street tunnel and send trains via the freight lines.
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller


As for the SRL:

I must be one the poor few that live in the West.

A CBD - Sunshine - Airport Link is going to be built regardless of SRL. I think lumping it altogether showed how little effort they put into the west compared with the east. Commuters from the east could easily interchange at the Airport to continue their journey to Sunshine.  

A more logical route would be to continue on to Watergardens (Major employment and retail hub), a possible station somewhere in Taylors Hill. There is no anchor point like a retail hub, it's just masses of houses.
Station at Caroline Springs Town Centre, another major retail and employment hub, Interchange stations at Caroline Springs.

Lockie
Lockie91
Lockie its not an East vs West issue, nor poor me.

MARL is the undisputed start of all this.
At the airport , the obvious choice is TBM for tunnel the last km or so under the terminal.
Once that job is done, the TBM can head off for Broadmeadows.

Once done, the opportunity to run trains through to Broady will be compelling to achieve the missing link between West and North.

Extending the track further towards Box Hill to join somewhere, as SRL ,will however be an another decade.

In the meantime a hub at Sunshine has linked Geelong/Ballarat/Bendigo/Seymour(and their preceding Metro) with the airport and each other, plus of course the rest of Melbourne to the South and East via MM1.

That hub, with a 5-10 year head start, will have established travel patterns for pax to work their best way around.
Building a short-cut from Carolyn Springs via Watergardens to the airport would be of questionable value. A business case for it's owm merit.

As for an in-fill station at Carolyn Springs shopping centre,
compare that to the other in-fill at Monash Uni, Deakin Uni, Shoppingtown, Latrobe Uni. Not in the same league.

cheers
John
"justarider"


Im very much aware it's not an East V West issue. I think they call it a play on words.

Melbourne Airport has already confirmed they will build an underground station.

If MARL and SRL are built by two different consotriums I can't see the TBM for one consortium helping out the other. They will most likely be two seperate projects, years apart.

As for Sunshine, the idea of having 'minor' interchanges further down the branch line (Sunbury & Melton) is to spread peak passenger loadings. You are going to have 8 different lines interchange at one station. This is a lot of people all in the one location, even with an upgrade Sunshine still needs to handle tens of thousands of passengers during the peak hours.

Station locations are just suggestions and when and if the North West Section gets built I imagine the government off the day will have a business case to confirm the best locations for said stations. Watgerardens and Caroline Spring are the closest the outer north west has to activity hubs. SRL will allow for more intense development of housing and Jobs around the stations locations, as is planned in the east. The lack of any major education or jobs anchor in the north west is a prime example of the differences best East and West.

In the East SRL is intended to serve those exisiting hubs that already have strong demand. In the North and the West SRL will be catalyst for these hubs.  

Lockie
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last

In the meantime a hub at Sunshine has linked Geelong/Ballarat/Bendigo/Seymour(and their preceding Metro) with the airport and each other, plus of course the rest of Melbourne to the South and East via MM1.

That hub, with a 5-10 year head start, will have established travel patterns for pax to work their best way around.
Building a short-cut from Carolyn Springs via Watergardens to the airport would be of questionable value. A business case for it's owm merit.

John


Im very much aware it's not an East V West issue. I think they call it a play on words.

Melbourne Airport has already confirmed they will build an underground station.

If MARL and SRL are built by two different consotriums I can't see the TBM for one consortium helping out the other. They will most likely be two seperate projects, years apart.

As for Sunshine, the idea of having 'minor' interchanges further down the branch line (Sunbury & Melton) is to spread peak passenger loadings. You are going to have 8 different lines interchange at one station. This is a lot of people all in the one location, even with an upgrade Sunshine still needs to handle tens of thousands of passengers during the peak hours.

Station locations are just suggestions and when and if the North West Section gets built I imagine the government off the day will have a business case to confirm the best locations for said stations. Watgerardens and Caroline Spring are the closest the outer north west has to activity hubs. SRL will allow for more intense development of housing and Jobs around the stations locations, as is planned in the east. The lack of any major education or jobs anchor in the north west is a prime example of the differences best East and West.

In the East SRL is intended to serve those exisiting hubs that already have strong demand. In the North and the West SRL will be catalyst for these hubs.  

Lockie
Lockie91
Possibly 2, or more consortia get pieces to do.

For a 2km tunnel at the Airport, could not cost justify a TBM on its own.
Either use road headers at double the unit cost(and price yourself out of the bid), or sell a used machine to another piece of the puzzle.
It's not helping each other, it's good business.
Would be interesting to see who bids to do the lot.

It's also not years apart. Both MARL and SRL-east are slated to start 2022.
If SRL-west starts after MARL is finished, that's still 2025 at best, with another 5 years to meet SRL-east. I doubt the Airport could counteance 2 separate work sites setting up, doubling the inevitable disruption.

I would hardly call Sunshine an 8 line junction. There is one extra service, and unlikely to need a new platform. Current Up/Down for RRL and Sunbury remain the same, with perhaps Bendigo trains actually stopping.

When Melton and/or Wyndham Vale are sparked, that is another pair for the station to manage. That's regardless of SRL or MARL and one of the more expensive problems for that project.

Last time I worked at Vic Uni, it was a major centre. 15 years on, its doubled. More students than LaTrobe.
Tullamarine is the light industry centre.
The extra stations you hypothesized are middle of ever growing dormitory suburbs.  
Nothing on the horizon for jobs, except huge plans for Arden, which is probably not west enough for your purpose.

cheers
John
  TrackRailroad Train Controller

Location: Frankston Line

In the meantime a hub at Sunshine has linked Geelong/Ballarat/Bendigo/Seymour(and their preceding Metro) with the airport and each other, plus of course the rest of Melbourne to the South and East via MM1.

That hub, with a 5-10 year head start, will have established travel patterns for pax to work their best way around.
Building a short-cut from Carolyn Springs via Watergardens to the airport would be of questionable value. A business case for it's owm merit.

John

Im very much aware it's not an East V West issue. I think they call it a play on words.

Melbourne Airport has already confirmed they will build an underground station.

If MARL and SRL are built by two different consotriums I can't see the TBM for one consortium helping out the other. They will most likely be two seperate projects, years apart.

As for Sunshine, the idea of having 'minor' interchanges further down the branch line (Sunbury & Melton) is to spread peak passenger loadings. You are going to have 8 different lines interchange at one station. This is a lot of people all in the one location, even with an upgrade Sunshine still needs to handle tens of thousands of passengers during the peak hours.

Station locations are just suggestions and when and if the North West Section gets built I imagine the government off the day will have a business case to confirm the best locations for said stations. Watgerardens and Caroline Spring are the closest the outer north west has to activity hubs. SRL will allow for more intense development of housing and Jobs around the stations locations, as is planned in the east. The lack of any major education or jobs anchor in the north west is a prime example of the differences best East and West.

In the East SRL is intended to serve those exisiting hubs that already have strong demand. In the North and the West SRL will be catalyst for these hubs.  

LockiePossibly 2, or more consortia get pieces to do.

For a 2km tunnel at the Airport, could not cost justify a TBM on its own.
Either use road headers at double the unit cost(and price yourself out of the bid), or sell a used machine to another piece of the puzzle.
It's not helping each other, it's good business.
Would be interesting to see who bids to do the lot.

It's also not years apart. Both MARL and SRL-east are slated to start 2022.
If SRL-west starts after MARL is finished, that's still 2025 at best, with another 5 years to meet SRL-east. I doubt the Airport could counteance 2 separate work sites setting up, doubling the inevitable disruption.

I would hardly call Sunshine an 8 line junction. There is one extra service, and unlikely to need a new platform. Current Up/Down for RRL and Sunbury remain the same, with perhaps Bendigo trains actually stopping.

When Melton and/or Wyndham Vale are sparked, that is another pair for the station to manage. That's regardless of SRL or MARL and one of the more expensive problems for that project.

Last time I worked at Vic Uni, it was a major centre. 15 years on, its doubled. More students than LaTrobe.
Tullamarine is the light industry centre.
The extra stations you hypothesized are middle of ever growing dormitory suburbs.  
Nothing on the horizon for jobs, except huge plans for Arden, which is probably not west enough for your purpose.

cheers
John
justarider
Currently I think SRL makes sense to go through Sunshine, given it is a major transport hub, National Employment Innovation Cluster (meaning the state government wants lot of jobs and investment to happen here). However I think it is good to be open to different station locations, especially as the west is still developing and when the western section is constructed the Caroline Springs area will be more built up, especially with much more housing and development between Deer Park and Melton. With new employment  and investment happening out this way it may make more sense in the future to shift the western section as suggested to be Melbourne Airport-Watergardens- Caroline Springs than down to the Werribee area.

I think Bendigo trains should run from Sunshine via Melbourne Airport too to connect to Sunbury. Gives Sunbury metro services full access to their own dedicated tracks, allowing improved services and no delays for V-line Bendigo trains caught behind metro services.

Sponsored advertisement

Display from: