At last some sensible commentary from the NSW Opposition, although I can't understand why they persist with the commonly mistaken view that the New Intercity Fleet was built too wide to fit through the tunnels.  That's untrue and the wider profile was quite deliberate.

All it is doing is continuing the long standing policy of having a common loading gauge for all of its Suburban and Intercity electric fleet (excluding wider legacy electric SD Suburban heritage rolling stock).  

The Northern, South Coast and Blue Mountains Lines (the latter as far as Springwood) were modified to allow operation of the wider Oscar sets and the modifications to the Western Line from Springwood to Lithgow, now completed, are no different.  No doubt the long term proposed extension of electrification to Bomaderry, Goulburn, Bathurst and Maitland will require similar modification.  Nothing to see here.

Build trains in NSW Labor says

I like to remain politically neutral regards Gladys, however to state that 'Australia and NSW are not good at building trains' shows that she was badly briefed by her minders who should have done more research before making her look like a goose.
Mike.

At last some sensible commentary from the NSW Opposition, although I can't understand why they persist with the commonly mistaken view that the New Intercity Fleet was built too wide to fit through the tunnels.  That's untrue and the wider profile was quite deliberate.

To be fair, the NSW Government never actually explained that the wide profile was deliberate - they told us the trains were "off the shelf", did not fit through the tunnels, and Andrew Constance even claimed the Blue Mountains MP did not want new trains when they were concerned about "fat trains that didn't fit the track" and "rigid uncomfortable seating" (yet to be proven/disproven) - all of that was enough for me to draw the conclusion that the government hates local manufacturing so much that they ordered some random Korean train only to find out it didn't fit the tunnels.

It took me coming onto Railpage to see the truth, why couldn't the government just explain it to everyone?

But yes, build trains, buses, ferrys, cars, trams, etc, all in NSW, all in Australia, create local jobs, and why they are at it, build infrastructure in all cities that need it, not just the capitals - just us out of recession the proper way, instead of just going about using tax payer money to punish the unemployed (privatised cashless welfare cards).

I like to remain politically neutral regards Gladys, however to state that 'Australia and NSW are not good at building trains' shows that she was badly briefed by her minders who should have done more research before making her look like a goose.
Mike.

Let's see if the Waratah's last as long as the S-Sets and V-Sets have...

At last some sensible commentary from the NSW Opposition, although I can't understand why they persist with the commonly mistaken view that the New Intercity Fleet was built too wide to fit through the tunnels.  That's untrue and the wider profile was quite deliberate.

i think we are lost .. we have two orders of sets being delivered.

the news posted the waratah trains for the sydney network not the new intercity trains replacing the oscars / v sets ..

The Millennium cars were built at Cardiff to basically the same design as the A sets and B sets and the Oscars were built at Broadmeadow to much the same design as the D sets.

What can't be done in Australia is build the trains fast enough to meet the Government's schedule.

These trains are being privately funded (except the B sets which are paid for by the Government) so the faster they enter service the better as far as the Government is concerned.

The privatisation of the service is sped up by getting privately owned trains maintained privately into service quickly.

The trains could be built in Australia but it would take longer and probably cost more. This would also increase the involvement of the unions in the factories and possibly in maintenance which the present government would oppose.

THe whole purpose of the Metro system is to separate the rail system from the unions, since the trains have no drivers and are maintained in privately operated workshops. Progressive conversion of Sydney TRains lines to Metro reduces the influence of Sydney Trains and the unions, which is the government's aim.

Peter.

I like to remain politically neutral regards Gladys, however to state that 'Australia and NSW are not good at building trains' shows that she was badly briefed by her minders who should have done more research before making her look like a goose.
Mike.

A worrying thing to hear as sends the wrong message to the world about what we can do here and is defeatist.  I imaine the unions will have jumped on tihs.   Does Bradken still manufacture in NSW?

Does Bradken still manufacture in NSW?

I am pretty sure they don't.
They don't appear to have built any new wagons in China lately.
I think they are still making castings in the USA and China.

Peter

And Gladys should be legally removed from power and office after slandering the state of which she is residing Premier of! By saying that NSW Doesn't build good trains, that's slander!!! It's like back stabbing our most honored manufactures in the back, how do you think NSW will be able to sell products to the rest of the world now after being slandered by our very own premier?!

The funny thing is that she also imported those rubbish built Sydney Metro trains from India which break down continuously and she says that NSW is not good at building trains

She should have been removed from power immediately after her slandering actions!

Does Bradken still manufacture in NSW?

I am pretty sure they don't.
They don't appear to have built any new wagons in China lately.
I think they are still making castings in the USA and China.

Peter

What does get manufactured in NSW for rail other than the locomotives at Broadmeadow?

Ironic that tonight's commuter rail chaos in Sydney was due to the failure of a Chinese built CSR

Ironic that tonight's commuter rail chaos in Sydney was due to the failure of a Chinese built CSR

More often than not, you get what you pay for.

I like to remain politically neutral regards Gladys, however to state that 'Australia and NSW are not good at building trains' shows that she was badly briefed by her minders who should have done more research before making her look like a goose.
Mike.

As a former Transport Minister, she should know better. Her ignorance is inexcusable.

At last some sensible commentary from the NSW Opposition, although I can't understand why they persist with the commonly mistaken view that the New Intercity Fleet was built too wide to fit through the tunnels.  That's untrue and the wider profile was quite deliberate.

To be fair, the NSW Government never actually explained that the wide profile was deliberate - they told us the trains were "off the shelf", did not fit through the tunnels, and Andrew Constance even claimed the Blue Mountains MP did not want new trains when they were concerned about "fat trains that didn't fit the track" and "rigid uncomfortable seating" (yet to be proven/disproven) - all of that was enough for me to draw the conclusion that the government hates local manufacturing so much that they ordered some random Korean train only to find out it didn't fit the tunnels.

It took me coming onto Railpage to see the truth, why couldn't the government just explain it to everyone?

But yes, build trains, buses, ferrys, cars, trams, etc, all in NSW, all in Australia, create local jobs, and why they are at it, build infrastructure in all cities that need it, not just the capitals - just us out of recession the proper way, instead of just going about using tax payer money to punish the unemployed (privatised cashless welfare cards).

I like to remain politically neutral regards Gladys, however to state that 'Australia and NSW are not good at building trains' shows that she was badly briefed by her minders who should have done more research before making her look like a goose.
Mike.

Let's see if the Waratah's last as long as the S-Sets and V-Sets have...

I seriously doubt that TfNSW and the Minister weren't aware that the D sets built in South Korea, which have the same profile as the H sets (Oscars), would be too wide for the Western Line between Springwood and Lithgow and would require modifications to the track infrastructure, stations and tunnels along the corridor.  It's no different to the similar modifications which were carried out on the Intercity network to the Northern, South Coast and Western Lines (the latter as far as Springwood) to accommodate the H sets.  

It's a perfectly logical decision to have a common profile for the whole Intercity fleet to allow greater flexibility of operations, rather than the current situation where the sector between Springwood and Lithgow on the Western Line can only accommodate the narrower V sets, which are to be replaced.  There's no problem with the other lines as they have already been modified.

What is surprising is that they didn't explain this upfront, when they could have avoided all of this unnecessary criticism.

At last some sensible commentary from the NSW Opposition, although I can't understand why they persist with the commonly mistaken view that the New Intercity Fleet was built too wide to fit through the tunnels.  That's untrue and the wider profile was quite deliberate.

i think we are lost .. we have two orders of sets being delivered.

the news posted the waratah trains for the sydney network not the new intercity trains replacing the oscars / v sets ..

I was specifically referring to the comments made by the Opposition Leader with regard to the Intercity trains, not the Waratahs.

How much extra would it cost to build in NSW? and for that matter the same question likely applies to all states.

The big problem in many ways is getting the design plans done and to have them set for production here, certainly there would be extra costs associated with this, and likely would take longer to construct and get into service as well which is what the current government and those of the past have used to justify overseas countries building a huge amount of items for the Australian market owing to cost differences.

Thing is though, if they were built here in NSW, imagine how many extra jobs would be created in pretty much private industries, this includes the large numbers of coal wagons and they could be built in the respective states, Lansdowne Engineering near Taree built a large number of them and repaired others as well, that no longer happens and many workers were made redundant as a result.

Similar scenario's still exist & what governments of all persuasions promote these issues for their own benefit and usually for elections to stay in power.  IF these items along with other areas such as the rail tracks were made in their respective states, I would imagine that the would be a lot more jobs made available, meaning more taxes to be collected, and of benefit should the work go to regional areas, it creates work in areas that need such business/industry for their ongoing survival.

There would or could be a lot of advantages in local construction even if it costs more and takes somewhat longer, especially in the above areas, and each level of government would get taxes back to them from the increased number of local workers that would be employed.

Will these new train sets, replace older DD sets or be additional to the current needs?  Is there plans to replace the Tangarra's as well?

The current leader of the NSW opposition, used to be a news reader at NBN in the old days and was at the time very much a lobbyist for the removal of the NCLE rail line from BMD in, this was prior to being elected to a labor seat in NCLE and then moving to Sydney to get the seat bounded in Strathfield.  I find it interesting that she has come out in the way she is now, when in the past was very much in the other view.

The trains could be built in Australia but it would take longer and probably cost more. This would also increase the involvement of the unions in the factories and possibly in maintenance which the present government would oppose.

THe whole purpose of the Metro system is to separate the rail system from the unions, since the trains have no drivers and are maintained in privately operated workshops. Progressive conversion of Sydney TRains lines to Metro reduces the influence of Sydney Trains and the unions, which is the government's aim.

Peter.

In the case of metro, the government owns the trains and infrastructure and contracts out the operation and maintenance for a defined period to a private consortium.  The government still controls fares and the level of services, while subsidising community service obligations for unprofitable services.  Similarly, with the new Suburban and Intercity trains, the government through its entities, Sydney Trains and NSW Trainlink, operates them and maintenance of the fleet is provided under long term contracts by private providers.  That's a bit different to a fully privatised service.  I don't think that the industrial relations aspect justifying the switch to driverless metro played as big a role as some make out, although it undoubtedly had some influence.

I'd say it would be unlikely that there will be any further conversions of existing Sydney Trains' lines to metro.  The Bankstown Line metro conversion, assuming it still proceeds, has demonstrated that there are too many compromises which have to be made to fit a driverless metro system into an existing legacy network, aside from the disruption caused during conversion.  It's not that simple.  Is it needed anyway, when the proposed introduction of digital signalling to Automatic Train Operation standard will significantly improve journey times and frequencies.  Then there's the fact that there's a whole new fleet of DD trains being introduced which will likely have a service life of at least 30 to 40 years, or perhaps even longer with upgrades.  It's wishful thinking if you believe that the Sydney Trains' network will be progressively converted to metro.  Converting existing lines to metro would be a wasteful exercise, when the money would be better spent on constructing new lines into areas which currently aren't serviced by rail.

I find her comments very disappointing, the bulk of the fleet was built in NSW and generally performing for 40+ years.

The only reason they needed the trains quickly is because there isn't a continuous supply of new trains entering the network until the "oh$hit", we need more trains now. If they cost say up to 10-15%, then I think this is acceptable considering the money that remains in the state including the supply chain, but beyond this then probably time to look elsewhere noting NSW is likely the most expensive state to build trains.

Agree, the Lithgow thing wasn't sold well.

The big problem in many ways is getting the design plans done and to have them set for production here, certainly there would be extra costs associated with this, and likely would take longer to construct and get into service as well which is what the current government and those of the past have used to justify overseas countries building a huge amount of items for the Australian market owing to cost differences.

Will these new train sets, replace older DD sets or be additional to the current needs?  Is there plans to replace the Tangarra's as well?

AFAIK, the Waratahs and the new Intercity trains, based on the Oscars, were designed here.  There were no readily available "off the shelf" products suitable for our rail network available overseas.  However, the new metro trains were variants of Alstom's Metropolis and built in India.  The new bi-mode regional train fleet is a CAF design and will be built in Spain.

The new Waratah B sets now being progressively introduced were originally designated as "growth" trains, over and above the original Waratah A and B sets.  The initial B set contract was meant to replace the older C and K DD sets.  There are no immediate plans to replace the Tangarras, as the whole fleet is to undergo complete upgrade and refurbishment to extend its life cycle.  The H sets will be cascaded down to the suburban network as the new D sets (NIF) are introduced also replacing the V sets.

Does Bradken still manufacture in NSW?

I am pretty sure they don't.
They don't appear to have built any new wagons in China lately.
I think they are still making castings in the USA and China.

Peter

They had a foundry here in SA for mining components but it died a few years ago. Manufacturing anything is too hard here in Oz now-days - you have the cost of gas, the cost of electricity, Workcover, superannuation, payroll tax - and on and on it goes.

I admire the NSW Opposition for pointing out the obvious but building trains in NSW would just be far too expensive; NSW would be about the highest cost location in Australia in which to attempt such an exercise.

The big problem in many ways is getting the design plans done and to have them set for production here, certainly there would be extra costs associated with this, and likely would take longer to construct and get into service as well which is what the current government and those of the past have used to justify overseas countries building a huge amount of items for the Australian market owing to cost differences.

Will these new train sets, replace older DD sets or be additional to the current needs?  Is there plans to replace the Tangarra's as well?

AFAIK, the Waratahs and the new Intercity trains, based on the Oscars, were designed here.  There were no readily available "off the shelf" products suitable for our rail network available overseas.  However, the new metro trains were variants of Alstom's Metropolis and built in India.  The new bi-mode regional train fleet is a CAF design and will be built in Spain.

The new Waratah B sets now being progressively introduced were originally designated as "growth" trains, over and above the original Waratah A and B sets.  The initial B set contract was meant to replace the older C and K DD sets.  There are no immediate plans to replace the Tangarras, as the whole fleet is to undergo complete upgrade and refurbishment to extend its life cycle.  The H sets will be cascaded down to the suburban network as the new D sets (NIF) are introduced also replacing the V sets.

The new B sets will not replace anything, they are just for growth
The C and K sets will be replaced by the H sets
Think about it, there are only 17 new B sets and IIRC 55 C and K sets, that does not equate to the numbers needed. Even if you added both the old and new B sets you wouldn't have enough trains to cover for the C and K sets (45-55)
When the OSCars are transferred it will be a perfect match (55-55)

test

At last some sensible commentary from the NSW Opposition, although I can't understand why they persist with the commonly mistaken view that the New Intercity Fleet was built too wide to fit through the tunnels.  That's untrue and the wider profile was quite deliberate.

To be fair, the NSW Government never actually explained that the wide profile was deliberate - they told us the trains were "off the shelf", did not fit through the tunnels, and Andrew Constance even claimed the Blue Mountains MP did not want new trains when they were concerned about "fat trains that didn't fit the track" and "rigid uncomfortable seating" (yet to be proven/disproven) - all of that was enough for me to draw the conclusion that the government hates local manufacturing so much that they ordered some random Korean train only to find out it didn't fit the tunnels.

It took me coming onto Railpage to see the truth, why couldn't the government just explain it to everyone?

But yes, build trains, buses, ferrys, cars, trams, etc, all in NSW, all in Australia, create local jobs, and why they are at it, build infrastructure in all cities that need it, not just the capitals - just us out of recession the proper way, instead of just going about using tax payer money to punish the unemployed (privatised cashless welfare cards).

I like to remain politically neutral regards Gladys, however to state that 'Australia and NSW are not good at building trains' shows that she was badly briefed by her minders who should have done more research before making her look like a goose.
Mike.

Let's see if the Waratah's last as long as the S-Sets and V-Sets have...

I seriously doubt that TfNSW and the Minister weren't aware that the D sets built in South Korea, which have the same profile as the H sets (Oscars), would be too wide for the Western Line between Springwood and Lithgow and would require modifications to the track infrastructure, stations and tunnels along the corridor.  It's no different to the similar modifications which were carried out on the Intercity network to the Northern, South Coast and Western Lines (the latter as far as Springwood) to accommodate the H sets.  

It's a perfectly logical decision to have a common profile for the whole Intercity fleet to allow greater flexibility of operations, rather than the current situation where the sector between Springwood and Lithgow on the Western Line can only accommodate the narrower V sets, which are to be replaced.  There's no problem with the other lines as they have already been modified.

What is surprising is that they didn't explain this upfront, when they could have avoided all of this unnecessary criticism.

Well that's exactly what I said, what does "off the shelf" even mean because the trains are clearly designed for NSW electric railways.

It took me coming onto Railpage to understand about the need for a common profile, and that's only because I have an interest in railways and public transport - most of the travelling public don't even know anything about loading gauge and platform gap limits, etc.

All that the public has heard is that the trains are "off the shelf" from South Korea, and they don't fit through the tunnels in the Blue Mountains, it's pretty easy to draw the wrong conclusion from that limited information.

How much extra would it cost to build in NSW? and for that matter the same question likely applies to all states.

The big problem in many ways is getting the design plans done and to have them set for production here, certainly there would be extra costs associated with this, and likely would take longer to construct and get into service as well which is what the current government and those of the past have used to justify overseas countries building a huge amount of items for the Australian market owing to cost differences.

Thing is though, if they were built here in NSW, imagine how many extra jobs would be created in pretty much private industries, this includes the large numbers of coal wagons and they could be built in the respective states, Lansdowne Engineering near Taree built a large number of them and repaired others as well, that no longer happens and many workers were made redundant as a result.

Similar scenario's still exist & what governments of all persuasions promote these issues for their own benefit and usually for elections to stay in power.  IF these items along with other areas such as the rail tracks were made in their respective states, I would imagine that the would be a lot more jobs made available, meaning more taxes to be collected, and of benefit should the work go to regional areas, it creates work in areas that need such business/industry for their ongoing survival.

There would or could be a lot of advantages in local construction even if it costs more and takes somewhat longer, especially in the above areas, and each level of government would get taxes back to them from the increased number of local workers that would be employed.

Will these new train sets, replace older DD sets or be additional to the current needs?  Is there plans to replace the Tangarra's as well?

The current leader of the NSW opposition, used to be a news reader at NBN in the old days and was at the time very much a lobbyist for the removal of the NCLE rail line from BMD in, this was prior to being elected to a labor seat in NCLE and then moving to Sydney to get the seat bounded in Strathfield.  I find it interesting that she has come out in the way she is now, when in the past was very much in the other view.

Agreed whole-heatedly,
It may be expensive to use local labour to build the trains here but:

-no need to pay unemployment benefits to as many people
-more revenue collected from tax
-money gets paid to workers which stimulates the economy
-likely can creates jobs outside of Sydney, giving people more choice in where they live
-potentially get a better quality product which lasts longer and saves money in the long run

as opposed to building them offshore:
-need to pay unemployment benefits to more people
-less tax revenue
-money is leaked out of the economy
-the few jobs we have remain in Sydney, continuing the trend of overpriced housing

The new intercity trains (D-Sets_ are replacing the V-Sets and displacing OSCars to suburban services, the OSCars will then likely replace K-Sets and C-Sets (good riddance). There are no plans to replace Tangaras are they are getting an upgrade.
I'm not too sure, but it appears that there is a greater number of D-Sets being ordered then there are V-Sets and OSCars in service - so we may see increased intercity services, probably to make up for less seats.

The big problem in many ways is getting the design plans done and to have them set for production here, certainly there would be extra costs associated with this, and likely would take longer to construct and get into service as well which is what the current government and those of the past have used to justify overseas countries building a huge amount of items for the Australian market owing to cost differences.

Will these new train sets, replace older DD sets or be additional to the current needs?  Is there plans to replace the Tangarra's as well?

AFAIK, the Waratahs and the new Intercity trains, based on the Oscars, were designed here.  There were no readily available "off the shelf" products suitable for our rail network available overseas.  However, the new metro trains were variants of Alstom's Metropolis and built in India.  The new bi-mode regional train fleet is a CAF design and will be built in Spain.

The new Waratah B sets now being progressively introduced were originally designated as "growth" trains, over and above the original Waratah A and B sets.  The initial B set contract was meant to replace the older C and K DD sets.  There are no immediate plans to replace the Tangarras, as the whole fleet is to undergo complete upgrade and refurbishment to extend its life cycle.  The H sets will be cascaded down to the suburban network as the new D sets (NIF) are introduced also replacing the V sets.

The new B sets will not replace anything, they are just for growth
The C and K sets will be replaced by the H sets
Think about it, there are only 17 new B sets and IIRC 55 C and K sets, that does not equate to the numbers needed. Even if you added both the old and new B sets you wouldn't have enough trains to cover for the C and K sets (45-55)
When the OSCars are transferred it will be a perfect match (55-55)

That's what I said in a round about way.   I specifically said that the new B sets are growth trains.

To be fair, the NSW Government never actually explained that the wide profile was deliberate - they told us the trains were "off the shelf", did not fit through the tunnels, and Andrew Constance even claimed the Blue Mountains MP did not want new trains when they were concerned about "fat trains that didn't fit the track" and "rigid uncomfortable seating" (yet to be proven/disproven) - all of that was enough for me to draw the conclusion that the government hates local manufacturing so much that they ordered some random Korean train only to find out it didn't fit the tunnels.

No, that's not exactly what you said.  I can't see any evidence to suggest that the government said that the Korean built NIF was an "off the shelf design" and too wide to fit through the tunnels.  It may have been their original intention to purchase "off the shelf", but as they were unable to find a suitable product, they finished up awarding the contract to build the new trains based on the Australian designed Oscar.  There was clearly no oversight there, which you acknowledge.  Anyway, we're probably splitting hairs here.