Standard Gauge VLocity

 
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

SG ordered are 6 x 3 car sg inter Citys sets with buffet. On Albury they WILL run as 6 car sets so the initial sets will support a frequency of three trains each way daily plus 1 consist rotating PPM/spare.  Each 3 car set only sits 150 , whereas a 4 car set would seat around 240.  For Albury, Swan Hill, Warrnambool and Bairnsdale 4 car sets are a much better fit for patronage.  The reason continually given is we have no choice -  the existing maintenance facilities are all set up for 3 cars. A fourth consist of 2 x 3 car sets will be required ultimately to allow operation of a fourth and fifth daily return service as promised to Albury.

Seems a very lazy way to run a railway in that the maintenance pits at CMD , and Ballarat East are easily modified to lift 4 car sets. Plus potential new maintenance facilities at Ballarat West, Waurn Ponds etc can easily and should be be built to handle up to 4 car sets.n it is acknowledged that would be better today and going forward.

I have wondered why they do not mix and match the Velocity sets that way to best address the passenger need and to avoid additional operating costs.  2 x 3 car sets seems expensive to operate when the service only needs 4 cars.  I do really like your view of the situation. Could a5 set consist work with the way velocity works?

The maintenance and fuel bill at V/Line must surely be higher than it needs to be.  Swapping to electrification for some of the lines would also lower the cost of maintenance for those sets but most importantly it would remove the dependencies on diesel fuel, make SCS cleaner and be better for the environment.
NSWGR8022
For the Albury, Swan Hill, Warrnambool and Bairnsdale corridors alone the avoidable cost savings in fuel and maintenance per annum in running 4 Vl sets in liue of 6 when 4 is enough for most trips with incraesed frequencies is over $ 20m pr annum.

Prior to 215 we had a mix of 2 x 3 car VL sets and thus ran tarin sizes of 2,3, 5, 6 and even 7 cars on Geelong. Then some clown decided it would be simpler to just ahve all 3 car sets locking us into the current inflexibility and higher on going opex costs.  A mix now of 2,3 and 4 would offer most flexibilty and lowest opex and maintenance costs.

For example with the Inter City fleet one would have mainly 4s and a few 3 so one could run either 4 on most trips nad 5s on the busiest am Up & PM Down.

And with the Commuter variant 2, 3 and 4 car sets so 2s beyond Ballarat & Bendigo, and any size 3 to 8 cars within the the Commuter zone as rqeuired by line . Up to 6 Shepparton, Bendigo, Seymour or traralgon, up to 7 Ballarat, up to 8 Geelong.

Geelong is the only country line now likely to get electrified and even that would be years away . The reality is that once Geelong is eletrified there will be spare V/locity trains left over. Plus the VL fleet is very young and will be 2046 till they need replacement and by then hydrogen will be the go. Google Alsthom Hydrogen Coradia train already in use in Europe, a real game changer.  Hydrogen is the future for regional services in that capex on expensive electrical overhead and substations is not rqeuired, and no on-going maintenance costs associated with the electrical infrastructure.

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  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Things do seem wonderfully simple and straightforward when you're dealing with Hornby HO, don't they?

Real life, alas, is somewhat more complicated.

Does it need to be complicated?  It seems to work in other networks but not Victoria?

Do NSW change the number of intermediate cars for XPT and Endeavour sets?
NSWGR8022
YES. NSW have mix of XPT and Explorer consists in different train sizes. Like thr Explorer on many days ex Sydney is two consists, one to Canberra and one to Griffith split at Goulburn.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
VLocity design is set in stone. Nine three-car broad-gauge sets of the 2018 model will enter service over the next few months. Then will come six standard-gauge sets in 2022. Finally, there will be a further sixteen broad-gauge sets.

And that's it. Our VLo load will have been shot , gentlemen. Only at that point will we finally enjoy the luxury of frothing over the next generation.
Incorrect, read the Media Releases this week . Up to 11/2018 election up to set 80 as 3 car bg had been ordered and these have now all been delivered albeit the latest numbers sit un-used at Wve stabling.  At 11/18 election Government announced iintention to purchase a further 54 cars.

Finally some 22 months later , this week firm order placed with Bombardier for 6 x 3 car sg sets (18 cars) of an Inter City fitout, and 12 x 3 (36 cars) car bg Commuter version taking the fleet up to a total 106 x 3 car sets of which 6 are sg and 100 bg.

To run the promised 5 return Albury services a day will require another 2 x 3 car sg Inter City sets, plus probably 1 x 3 sg to make a full 6 car sg consist available spare / PPM.

There has been no annoucement at this stage as to planned acquisition of any additional V/locity cars either as individaul cars or sets above the now firmly ordered and committed sets 89  106.
kuldalai


Surely someone is running a website with all of the carriage numbers and status?    Seems like a perfectly rational gunzel thing to be done?
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

I would start the SG trains at Ararat. Then they could cover both Horsham and also potentially Portland. Also the Ararat platform is an island platform. So you just step out of a BG train and across the platform into the SG train.

Ararat is the natural SG hub in Western Victoria.
how long are platforms in Ballarat?  could a tandem transfer work?
james.au
A detailed study was done for Wimmera area Councils (partly funded by state Government) on rail passengers ervices around 3 years ago and the afforadble solution recommended was that :

- Level x protection should be upgraded Ararat to Hamilton & Horsham. line speeds 130 kmh to Horsham and 115kmh to Hamilton.
- Standardize Ballarat - Ararat and Ballarat - Maryborough.
- Fleet of 6 x 2 car sg V/Locity sets based and maintained at Ballarat to run beyond Ballarat to Ararat/ Horsham/ Hamilton, and Maryborough. (including PPM/spares)
- All through pax change trains Ballarat - same platform transfers
- Weekdays - Ararat 6 return trips  Hamilton - 3 Horsham - 4 Maryborough- 3
- Plus 2 Hamilton  Horsham trips each day by changing trains cross paltform at Ararat.
- Many Ballarat - Ararat trips as 2 x 2 split at Ararat then ahlf to Horsham and half to Hamilton.'
Yes both platforms at Ballarat are long enough to hold two train sets at a time allowing same platform.
Capex costs IIRC were of the order of $ 320m .

Whilst continued bg operation to Ararat is an option with standard gauge operations beyond the train maintenance and stabling, fueling are more complex and in reality at least one trip a day would need to run via North Shore as through sg, plus shuttles beyond Ararat to Horsham .
  NimbleJack Station Master

I'll try writing this as clearly as possible. Folks here seem to get mighty confused.

VL 00 to 79 are currently in service. That's 80 three-car sets in total. VL 80 to 88 (nine three-car sets in total) are 2018 models. They will be entering service before the end of the year; most are in storage at Wyndham Vale awaiting new windscreens.

After the six three-car SG units (VL 89 to 94), there will be a further 12 three-car 2018-model VL units, taking us to VL 106.

And voilà. We're done.

EDITED: My maths was at fault here, no one else's!
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
VLocity design is set in stone. Nine three-car broad-gauge sets of the 2018 model will enter service over the next few months. Then will come six standard-gauge sets in 2022. Finally, there will be a further sixteen broad-gauge sets.

And that's it. Our VLo load will have been shot , gentlemen. Only at that point will we finally enjoy the luxury of frothing over the next generation.
Incorrect, read the Media Releases this week . Up to 11/2018 election up to set 80 as 3 car bg had been ordered and these have now all been delivered albeit the latest numbers sit un-used at Wve stabling.  At 11/18 election Government announced iintention to purchase a further 54 cars.

Finally some 22 months later , this week firm order placed with Bombardier for 6 x 3 car sg sets (18 cars) of an Inter City fitout, and 12 x 3 (36 cars) car bg Commuter version taking the fleet up to a total 106 x 3 car sets of which 6 are sg and 100 bg.

To run the promised 5 return Albury services a day will require another 2 x 3 car sg Inter City sets, plus probably 1 x 3 sg to make a full 6 car sg consist available spare / PPM.

There has been no annoucement at this stage as to planned acquisition of any additional V/locity cars either as individaul cars or sets above the now firmly ordered and committed sets 89  106.
kuldalai
I'm not sure what your point is.

88 ordered in 2018.
VL84 delivered, was spotted by Marcus Wong a week ago going back to Bombardier for some work. Maybe to match spec for the weighty VL85-VL88 wherever they are hiding.

The latest announcement is 18 more 3 car sets to bring the total to 106. (6 of them SG).
What part of every set is 3 car have we missed. Seems rock solid.

No announces beyond VL106. Only now firming up how they will be used in 3-5 years, yet you seem to claim it's not enough. How about we let the real planners tell us first.

EDIT for NimbleJack  VL00-VL88 built - thats 89, less the one pranged = 88 live ones.

cheers
John
  NimbleJack Station Master

Numeracy is a struggle on this thread.

Don't forget that VL 29 was written off in an accident, bringing the intended total of BG VLocitys to an even 100.

Odds are, if they want more SG units, they'll just run them as three-car sets.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

I'll try writing this as clearly as possible. Folks here seem to get mighty confused.

VL 00 to 79 are currently in service. That's 80 three-car sets in total. VL 80 to 88 (nine three-car sets in total) are 2018 models. They will be entering service before the end of the year; most are in storage at Wyndham Vale awaiting new windscreens.

After the six three-car SG units (VL 89 to 94), there will be a further 18 three-car 2018-model VL units, taking us to VL 112.

And voilà. We're done.
NimbleJack
Yes up to 88 stabled un-used at Wve stabling. Then announced this week  18 more sets 6 x sg and 12 x bg  . Will be numbered as  89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106.  

88 + 18 =  106  

The total order placed this week is 18 sets NOT  24 sets  made up of 6x 3 sg and 12 x 3 bg.

Here is the proof - the actual Media Release :

15th Sep 2020
More Victorian-Made VLocity Trains On The Way
The Victorian Government is continuing its massive investment in regional passenger rail and boosting Victorian jobs, with another 18 VLocity trains now being made locally to improve services across the state.

Minister for Public Transport Ben Carroll today announced the latest order of regional trains is now under construction at Dandenong-based manufacturer Bombardier, supporting 100 direct local jobs and hundreds more through the local supply chain.

With an investment of $340 million in the Victorian Budget 2019/20, this new order will include 12 new broad-gauge trains to improve capacity on Victoria’s busiest regional lines and six additional new standard-gauge trains for the North East line, which is currently being upgraded.

The new broad-gauge trains have been designed for both short and medium distance services and will include a facelift including modified drivers’ cab, dedicated storage area for bicycles and accessibility improvements.

The new long-haul standard-gauge trains will begin to replace the aging classic fleet on the North East line next year, providing passengers with a more modern, comfortable journey between Melbourne and Albury.

Incorporating feedback from passengers and V/Line staff, the standard-gauge trains will feature built-in USB chargers, shared tables, dedicated spaces for luggage and bikes, modern catering and food facilities and six accessible spaces for people who use mobility aids with companion seats nearby.

All the new VLocity trains also include mobile phone signal boosters to deliver improved coverage for passengers throughout their journeys.

The new standard gauge VLocity trains will start taking passengers after the North East Line Upgrade is complete and they have undergone rigorous testing.

The Victorian Government has delivered a 40 per cent increase in regional rail services since 2015, with V/Line now running more than 2,000 services every week.

Quotes attributable to Minister for Public Transport Ben Carroll

“Not only are we building great trains for Victorians – we’re doing it right here in Dandenong, providing jobs for 100 Victorians in construction, and creating work for hundreds more across the supply chain.”

“We’re delivering the world-class regional trains Victorians deserve – with modern amenities to make people’s journeys around our state more reliable, accessible and enjoyable.”

Quote attributable to Minister for Transport Infrastructure Jacinta Allan

“Alongside the upgrade of the North East Line, these trains will deliver a more modern, comfortable journey for passengers travelling between Melbourne and Albury – we can’t wait for them to hit the tracks.”

Quote attributable to Member for Dandenong Gabrielle Williams

“At a time when many Victorians have lost work due to the pandemic, we’re proud to be building our regional trains right here in Dandenong – providing job security and extra work for hundreds of local people.”
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

Given the supposed goal of no loco-hauled by 2022 - 25, what plans are there for a BG long-haul VLocity? One would think it’s just a matter of converting the bogies on a SG long-haul VLocity to BG.

Do the buffets on a SG long-haul require staffing or are they some sort of auto self-serve, ie 2 catering staff to Albury, none to Bairnsdale?
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
Given the supposed goal of no loco-hauled by 2022 - 25, what plans are there for a BG long-haul VLocity? One would think it’s just a matter of converting the bogies on a SG long-haul VLocity to BG.

Do the buffets on a SG long-haul require staffing or are they some sort of auto self-serve, ie 2 catering staff to Albury, none to Bairnsdale?
kitchgp
As far as I'm aware, buffets do require staff. They are called conductors Laughing
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
Things do seem wonderfully simple and straightforward when you're dealing with Hornby HO, don't they?

Real life, alas, is somewhat more complicated.
NimbleJack
Hornby, the other "wrong gauge" stalwart. Laughing

Ironically it's the other way around for them, their trains are too big (1:76 instead of 1:87) but the track gauge is the same as the rest of the HO-scale-speaking world.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
Hang on wait what....

6x3 SG trains for the North East?

Currently there are 3 N trains for that run.

Are they going to be increasing service now?

Or is something else possible here - Shep standardisation?

What have I missed?
james.au
There are currently 4 x 4 car sg N sets and 4 N sg locos. Takes two sets to run 3 return Weekday trips, so 100 % redundancy in the sg fleet and yet VLP will cancel sg Albury trains at the drop of  aht and for any piddlling reason. Kile now they could be running sg pass to Benalla do run around and stable in Benalla Yard . ????
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

Hang on wait what....

6x3 SG trains for the North East?

Currently there are 3 N trains for that run.

Are they going to be increasing service now?

Or is something else possible here - Shep standardisation?

What have I missed?
james.au
If you read it as 3x6-car SG trains it looks like a simple one-for-one swap.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
The problems with VLocity I have mentioned previously.

They are very noisy especially over a longer distance. They are uncomfortable the seating is too basic and is basically crap.   They are expensive to operate with multiple engines and emissions making them very bad for the environment.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
Hang on wait what....

6x3 SG trains for the North East?

Currently there are 3 N trains for that run.

Are they going to be increasing service now?

Or is something else possible here - Shep standardisation?
james.au
The answer to this question is in my post in this very thread from only 2 days ago. Maybe read the thread before asking questions that have already been answered.
This is very simple.

There have been 6 sets ordered. Each set has 3 carriages and can be joined together with another to form 1x 6 carriage train.

To run the current timetable of services between Melbourne and Albury on any given day, 2 trains are required. In most cases, these trains will be made up of 2x 3 car sets to from 6 carriage trains. That will still leave 2 sets (or 1 six carriage train) to meet the demands of the maintenance cycle.

In the event that more than 2 sets require maintenance at any one time, some trains may run as only 1 set (1x 3 carriage train) meaning that the train can still run, rather than being cancelled all together as is the case at the moment.
Gman_86


What have I missed?
james.au

a bit apparently.
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
The problems with VLocity I have mentioned previously.

They are very noisy especially over a longer distance. They are uncomfortable the seating is too basic and is basically crap.   They are expensive to operate with multiple engines and emissions making them very bad for the environment.
freightgate

Sounds like 1st class Whinegeing to me, Bill.

Your commenting on a train that you never been on. The old V'los weren't  loud or uncomfortable, I used to travel from Ararat with the stop over to get coupled up to other V'los and then on to Melbourne, I reckon they were fine.

Would you prefer to keep the old set running ????

BigShunter.
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
The SG sets are also seeing a fairly significant interior design change from the existing sets - no guarantee the seats will be the same as the existing ones, or that the soundproofing is the same.

And really, the sound of a train is something that you get used and can tune out after about 5 minutes - if you can't, get some headphones or something because that's a problem that is specific to you.
  skitz Chief Commissioner

The problems with VLocity I have mentioned previously.

They are very noisy especially over a longer distance. They are uncomfortable the seating is too basic and is basically crap.   They are expensive to operate with multiple engines and emissions making them very bad for the environment.

Sounds like 1st class Whinegeing to me, Bill.

Your commenting on a train that you never been on. The old V'los weren't  loud or uncomfortable, I used to travel from Ararat with the stop over to get coupled up to other V'los and then on to Melbourne, I reckon they were fine.

Would you prefer to keep the old set running ????

BigShunter.
BigShunter
They are noisy.  Especially once they get a bit of age on the alternator rubbers, transmissions and loss of suspension quality.

One needs to 'know where to sit'

Nothing better that a Vlocity car with a dead alternator and a dead main engine, then the obviousness of the noise is most aparent.
  jakar Assistant Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
They are noisy. Especially once they get a bit of age on the alternator rubbers, transmissions and loss of suspension quality. One needs to 'know where to sit' Nothing better that a Vlocity car with a dead alternator and a dead main engine, then the obviousness of the noise is most aparent.
skitz
I have to agree with skitz here, i've never understood how they could be described as being quiet. It's great if the traction engine has been isolated in the car you're in, but you've really hit the jackpot if both the traction engine and auxiliary engine have been isolated; so smooth and quiet!
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
The problems with VLocity I have mentioned previously.

They are very noisy especially over a longer distance. They are uncomfortable the seating is too basic and is basically crap.   They are expensive to operate with multiple engines and emissions making them very bad for the environment.
freightgate

What's worse for the environment Question

200 people travelling by train or 100 cars.,..assuming 2 people per car travelling along the Hume Highway...

Mike.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
They are noisy. Especially once they get a bit of age on the alternator rubbers, transmissions and loss of suspension quality. One needs to 'know where to sit' Nothing better that a Vlocity car with a dead alternator and a dead main engine, then the obviousness of the noise is most aparent.
I have to agree with skitz here, i've never understood how they could be described as being quiet. It's great if the traction engine has been isolated in the car you're in, but you've really hit the jackpot if both the traction engine and auxiliary engine have been isolated; so smooth and quiet!
jakar

Perhaps it's because I've travelled in them for so many years...but I don't find V'Locity's to be intrusively noisy.

Moreover, I don't see people shouting to each or making hand gestures to others in vain attempts to make conversation. If a person wants to think they are loud...which they are not...then they will find fault with them. Even an ACN could, at a stretch be described as loud to travel in, but people still talk normally to each other.

I think BigShunter made quite a valid comment.

Mike.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

Passengers can make more noises than the engine does.
  trainbrain Chief Commissioner

If I find trains too noisy I just let one rip, that clears them out very quickly..simple..................
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

While I haven't been on any V/line loco hauled services.   Velocities are not loud by any stretch.  Can you hear the gines?  Yes.  Can you feel engine vibrations? Yes.  Are they annoyingly loud?   No.  Can you hear them with noise cancelling headphones on?  No.

Just remember the NSW endeavours and Xplorers go much further and they are far louder.

Bathurst bullet is 4 hours and thats with the 5 across seats as well.  


I don't understand some peoples (and railway managements) obsession with locomotives and them being superior.   They aren't superior anymore.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
I don't understand some peoples (and railway managements) obsession with locomotives and them being superior.   They aren't superior anymore.
tazzer96
Locomotives were only superior when they could be used on other trains (when the passenger train was stabled, like overnight)

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