Future of Sydney’s Electric Rolling Stock (K/C/V Sets)

 
  SupremeLeaderSmeagol Junior Train Controller

Spotted a Down 4 car V-set snaking its way into the back platform (platform 1) at Campbelltown just over an hour ago. Looked nice and shiny. I was in the bus at the terminus, so I could not see the target plate
I know it was V5 but I don’t know why it went down there. Maybe an expansion of the electrified network?  Could be possible since extra D Sets were supposedly ordered bringing the numbers up to 72x four Car and 67x six Car sets.
C3765
There are 56 4-car sets and 55 6-car sets. Expansion of electrification may be possible

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  marvin Assistant Commissioner

Location: Mars... "The Earth? Oh, the Earth will be gone in just a few seconds!"
So V5 then.

I did not get a good look at the set, so I was only guessing at a 4 car set.

Thanks for the extra information. Still got me puzzled though.

I wonder if it came from Flemington Maintenance Centre, or following a revenue service run. 101 minutes dwell time in the am at Central seems a lot before the first of the two runs out to Campbelltown.

marvin
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  C3765 Train Controller

It won't be that way. The D sets are going to replace the V and H sets on InterCity runs. The V sets are being scrapped, and the H sets are being repurposed to replace the K and C sets
SupremeLeaderSmeagol
This is how I think it will go;

Next few months
- D Sets will continue testing (Restricted Movement and Testing - 4 Cars, 6 Cars, 10 Car Operations and Dynamic Testing? - Like T72/T106 currently with doors, etc..)
- Unveil to Media/ Public? Possibly name? New name instead of NIF (like Waratah instead of SGT)

April/May
- First D Set Enters Service (probably D102) on a trial run similarly to B2. Runs on CCN Line.


Following months
- More enter service, allowing for 10-Car Sets to be formed
- Start relieving H Sets of duty on the CCN Line
- H Sets transferred to SC Line to bump up 4-Car services to 8-Car Services
- Allow an extra pair of T Sets to undergo upgrades if this has not yet been done

Late 2020/Early 2021
- Start relieving V Sets of duty on the CCN Line
- V Sets transferred to BMT Line to boost services
- Start electrifying south of MacArthur (Unlikely)

Mid 2021/Late 2021/Early 2022
- D Sets successfully complete takeover of CCN Line
- Electrification Complete
- V Sets commence service South West (If line was electrified)
- D Sets start relieving V Sets of duty on BMT Line
- Withdrawal of first V Sets (Or Earlier, maybe Late 2020)

Early 2023/Mid 2023
- D Sets successfully complete takeover of BMT Line
- D Sets start relieving H Sets of duty on SC Line
- H Sets start relieving C Sets of duty on SC Line, then K Sets (Because C Sets have more problems)
- C Sets Withdrawn

Late 2024/Early 2025
- D Sets successfully complete takeover of SC Line
- All K Sets Withdrawn
- Commence replacing V Sets on SH Line (If Line was electrified and V Sets were moved to this Line)

Late 2025
- All remaining V Sets withdrawn  (If Line was electrified and V Sets were moved to this Line)
- D Sets complete takeover of V Sets on SH Line  (If Line was electrified and V Sets were moved to this Line)

2026
- Electrification to Bathurst?

If the SH Line was electrified although unlikely, it would:
- Reduce Emissions
- Free Up Endeavours
- Support the new BioModal Regional Trains

All just a prediction
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
There will be no new electrification.
  DCook Chief Train Controller

Location: The standard state
It would be good if they electrified more of the network but with the current government I find it unlikely that much will be done to the existing system, they will just want to fund the metro
In saying that though, TfNSW should consider electrification
Prime candidates would be
Lithgow to Bathurst
Kiama to Nowra
Macarthur to Picton
One secondary candidate would be Newcastle to Maitland
  Transtopic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney
This is how I think it will go;

Late 2020/Early 2021
- Start electrifying south of MacArthur (Unlikely)
C3765
I would have thought that extending the wires from Kiama to Bomaderry should have greater priority.  Being for the most part single track, it would be a lot cheaper and complete full electrification on the SC Line and any future extension thereof.  This would allow for a single electric fleet, with improved services, and the Endeavour stock could be transferred to the SH Line to augment the existing shuttle services there, until such time as electrification is extended to that region.  Further extension of electrification to Bathurst, as well as Maitland, are much longer term goals.
  SupremeLeaderSmeagol Junior Train Controller

It won't be that way. The D sets are going to replace the V and H sets on InterCity runs. The V sets are being scrapped, and the H sets are being repurposed to replace the K and C sets
This is how I think it will go;

Next few months
- D Sets will continue testing (Restricted Movement and Testing - 4 Cars, 6 Cars, 10 Car Operations and Dynamic Testing? - Like T72/T106 currently with doors, etc..)
- Unveil to Media/ Public? Possibly name? New name instead of NIF (like Waratah instead of SGT)

April/May
- First D Set Enters Service (probably D102) on a trial run similarly to B2. Runs on CCN Line.


Following months
- More enter service, allowing for 10-Car Sets to be formed
- Start relieving H Sets of duty on the CCN Line
- H Sets transferred to SC Line to bump up 4-Car services to 8-Car Services
- Allow an extra pair of T Sets to undergo upgrades if this has not yet been done

Late 2020/Early 2021
- Start relieving V Sets of duty on the CCN Line
- V Sets transferred to BMT Line to boost services
- Start electrifying south of MacArthur (Unlikely)

Mid 2021/Late 2021/Early 2022
- D Sets successfully complete takeover of CCN Line
- Electrification Complete
- V Sets commence service South West (If line was electrified)
- D Sets start relieving V Sets of duty on BMT Line
- Withdrawal of first V Sets (Or Earlier, maybe Late 2020)

Early 2023/Mid 2023
- D Sets successfully complete takeover of BMT Line
- D Sets start relieving H Sets of duty on SC Line
- H Sets start relieving C Sets of duty on SC Line, then K Sets (Because C Sets have more problems)
- C Sets Withdrawn

Late 2024/Early 2025
- D Sets successfully complete takeover of SC Line
- All K Sets Withdrawn
- Commence replacing V Sets on SH Line (If Line was electrified and V Sets were moved to this Line)

Late 2025
- All remaining V Sets withdrawn  (If Line was electrified and V Sets were moved to this Line)
- D Sets complete takeover of V Sets on SH Line  (If Line was electrified and V Sets were moved to this Line)

2026
- Electrification to Bathurst?

If the SH Line was electrified although unlikely, it would:
- Reduce Emissions
- Free Up Endeavours
- Support the new BioModal Regional Trains

All just a prediction
C3765
D sets will come into revenue service on the CCN March this year, June/July this year on the BMT, and early 2021 on the SCO.
  C3765 Train Controller

D sets will come into revenue service on the CCN March this year, June/July this year on the BMT, and early 2021 on the SCO.
SupremeLeaderSmeagol
You have to think realistically. You cannot expect D Sets to enter service at such rapid rate. 554 (55x6-Car & 56x4-Car) cars cannot be deployed in such a time frame. I agree with you that the first set will enter service in March/April but you cannot expect the D Sets to completely wipeout all V Sets and H Sets on the CCN line and BMT line in just a year. Currently the last of the V Sets are intended to last until 2022 so you won’t see any D Sets on the SCO line until 2023 or maybe late 2022.
  C3765 Train Controller

V Sets have been running between Sydney Terminal and Glenfield for the past three days. V5 on Wednesday, V44 on Thursday and V50 today.
  SupremeLeaderSmeagol Junior Train Controller

D sets will come into revenue service on the CCN March this year, June/July this year on the BMT, and early 2021 on the SCO.
You have to think realistically. You cannot expect D Sets to enter service at such rapid rate. 554 (55x6-Car & 56x4-Car) cars cannot be deployed in such a time frame. I agree with you that the first set will enter service in March/April but you cannot expect the D Sets to completely wipeout all V Sets and H Sets on the CCN line and BMT line in just a year. Currently the last of the V Sets are intended to last until 2022 so you won’t see any D Sets on the SCO line until 2023 or maybe late 2022.
C3765
I'm just quoting what the government has been putting out.
  C3765 Train Controller

I'm just quoting what the government has been putting out.
SupremeLeaderSmeagol
I did a bit more research after my last post. I’ve found that it will take 3-4 months testing before the first set enters service and also the project is currently approximately 8 months late. Now with that in mind, I’ve  tweaked your timeline.

CCN Line: April/May 2020 (Was Scheduled June/July 2019)

BMT Line: March 2021 (Was scheduled for Mid 2020)


SCO Line: Early 2023
  SupremeLeaderSmeagol Junior Train Controller

I'm just quoting what the government has been putting out.
I did a bit more research after my last post. I’ve found that it will take 3-4 months testing before the first set enters service and also the project is currently approximately 8 months late. Now with that in mind, I’ve  tweaked your timeline.

CCN Line: April/May 2020 (Was Scheduled June/July 2019)

BMT Line: March 2021 (Was scheduled for Mid 2020)


SCO Line: Early 2023
C3765
Ah, thanks for the update.
  David10 Station Master

D sets will come into revenue service on the CCN March this year, June/July this year on the BMT, and early 2021 on the SCO.
Unlikely, even if all the testing goes without any hiccups, there is still the need to train drivers, guards, platform and maintenance staff. Can't imagine they will enter service until Kangy Angy is up and running, which looked some time off when I passed a few weeks ago. By way of comparison, it was 15 months from the first Waratah commencing testing until it entered service.
  SydneyCider Chief Train Controller

The first Waratah B set was delivered to Sydney around late March 2018 and first set didn't enter service until September 2018. Doubt we'll see NIF entering service till late this year - also remembering this is a brand new train.

As for electrification, won't say much so as not to de-rail the thread, but I think the New Regional Rail Fleet, which will be bi-mode (i.e. run via both electric where wires are present and diesel where they are not), will play some part in deciding to extension of electrification. Given that they will be single-deck and likely narrower profile, extending the wires from Kiama to Bomaderry/Nowra will probably see an increased chance of that happening because of the NRR Fleet - where as Oscars and NIFs are wider stock and double-deck.
  SupremeLeaderSmeagol Junior Train Controller

D sets will come into revenue service on the CCN March this year, June/July this year on the BMT, and early 2021 on the SCO.
Unlikely, even if all the testing goes without any hiccups, there is still the need to train drivers, guards, platform and maintenance staff. Can't imagine they will enter service until Kangy Angy is up and running, which looked some time off when I passed a few weeks ago. By way of comparison, it was 15 months from the first Waratah commencing testing until it entered service.
David10
I think they are going to be based out of Eveleigh until Kangy Angy is up and running. Hence why the Millenniums have been shuffled over to the bowling alley. I agree, it will take time for this train to enter service, I will have to go and check the latest government figures to see what propaganda they've been putting out
  C3765 Train Controller

With the introduction of the rest of the Waratah Series 2 trains, have any of the 13 remaining C-Sets (C1-3, 5-14) been retired as rumoured?
  SupremeLeaderSmeagol Junior Train Controller

With the introduction of the rest of the Waratah Series 2 trains, have any of the 13 remaining C-Sets (C1-3, 5-14) been retired as rumoured?
C3765
Haven't heard anything yet.
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
With the introduction of the rest of the Waratah Series 2 trains, have any of the 13 remaining C-Sets (C1-3, 5-14) been retired as rumoured?
C3765
Hearing 4 cars retired so far.
  Matthew Chief Train Controller

The sensible thing (yea I know I'm dreaming) would be to keep the C sets with their electronic drives in service TILL a major fault occurs. Then rejig the sets, and scrap the faulty car instead of performing a potentially expensive repair.

I gather the C set withdrawn has a major fault. So withdraw instead of repair given the limited service life remaining.
  SupremeLeaderSmeagol Junior Train Controller

The sensible thing (yea I know I'm dreaming) would be to keep the C sets with their electronic drives in service TILL a major fault occurs. Then rejig the sets, and scrap the faulty car instead of performing a potentially expensive repair.

I gather the C set withdrawn has a major fault. So withdraw instead of repair given the limited service life remaining.
Matthew
What I heard is that 1/2 of C4 and 1/2 of C10 were withdrawn, and the remaining halves were combined to form a new "C10"
  DCook Chief Train Controller

Location: The standard state
Forgive my ignorance, but what on earth has happened with the C sets?

One person on YouTube stated that all of the C sets would be retired, does this have any truth behind it?
  SupremeLeaderSmeagol Junior Train Controller

Forgive my ignorance, but what on earth has happened with the C sets?

One person on YouTube stated that all of the C sets would be retired, does this have any truth behind it?
DCook
Eventually. As the second batch of B sets comes online, the C sets and part of the K sets will be retired. After the D sets come online and the H sets are cascaded to suburban, the rest of the K sets are withdrawn and then fleet expansion takes place.
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
I gather the C set withdrawn has a major fault. So withdraw instead of repair given the limited service life remaining.
Matthew
Not quite.

Two cars from one set, two from another. Which is why I didn't specify a set number, because technically there isn't one.

One person on YouTube stated that all of the C sets would be retired, does this have any truth behind it?
DCook
I do not recommend using YouTube as your source of information.

That said, of course they will eventually be retired, and as SupremeLeaderSmeagol has pointed out, this will occur as more Bs come online.
  DCook Chief Train Controller

Location: The standard state
One person on YouTube stated that all of the C sets would be retired, does this have any truth behind it?
I do not recommend using YouTube as your source of information.

That said, of course they will eventually be retired, and as SupremeLeaderSmeagol has pointed out, this will occur as more Bs come online.
s3_gunzel
Which is exactly why I put it on my post, to check that the information was correct

What caused the sudden withdrawal, I had always read and heard that they would not be retired until the transfer of the OSCars to suburban service?
  C3765 Train Controller

I can’t find any official word on the C-Sets withdrawal, however I did find this:


Sydney's stretched rail network in store for $900m in new trains
February 6th 2019
==================================================================
While the remaining S-Set trains will be retired in the coming months, Mr Constance said the "growth is so huge" that other old trains in the state's fleet, such as the silver K-Sets, would remain in service even when the extra Waratah trains arrive from next year.

"We are making the additional 17-train purchase, not on the basis to replace old trains; we're doing it on the basis of growth and growth only. At this stage there is no strategy to replace the K-Sets," he said.
"A hundred million passenger increase in a five-year period is off the charts, and that's what we've had to cater for."
Sydney Trains chief executive Howard Collins said the rail operator was working on plans to improve the reliability of the K-Set trains. "The good thing is those trains are airconditioned – that's why we've kept them," he said.
Under the original contract, the government has the option of purchasing another 28 eight-car trains from a consortium of China's CRRC Changchun Railway Vehicles company and Australian engineering firm Downer EDI.


And while there will be slight changes to train services in the short term, Mr Constance said there would not be a major overhaul of the rail timetable until 2022 or 2023, following an upgrade to signalling. "We will see service adjustments, as you do with any timetable, but there will not be a major overhaul until we see the digitising of the network," he said.

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