China to Stop Buying Aussie Coal

 
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Another bombshell...


China is the destination for about 25% of our coal exports. It'll make a dint....

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  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Finally. Time to stop supporting the expansionism of communist china.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Another bombshell...


China is the destination for about 25% of our coal exports. It'll make a dint....
Carnot
So what will most likely happen is a coal swap, i.e. at sea two ships cross paths as the capacity by other suppliers to simply step in isn't there and of course for the price.
  arctic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Zurich
It makes sense to me to minimise Australias trade exposure with China. If the Chinese initiate as some kind of "punishment" all the better.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
It makes sense to me to minimise Australias trade exposure with China. If the Chinese initiate as some kind of "punishment" all the better.
arctic
Finally something I can agree with you on - this thing has been coming for years, the CCP is determined to punish all non-compliant governments and create their own sphere of influence that excludes the non-believers. We're going to be automatically excluded because we insist on adherence to the anathema of liberal democracy.

The problem is that we're entirely dependent on China for things like solar panels, semiconductors and various other things that we've become accustomed to - and so has the rest of the world.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
So what will most likely happen is a coal swap, i.e. at sea two ships cross paths as the capacity by other suppliers to simply step in isn't there and of course for the price.
RTT_Rules
Don't agree - they've been developing relationships with third party suppliers for these things for the last decade, particularly Brazil, Russia, Indonesia and various African nations especially South Africa. Indonesia in particular has a lot of coal - admittedly not a lot of the high quality black coal needed for steel production but nevertheless China has been cultivating their relationships with those third parties carefully for just such an eventuality. Russia has plenty of good quality black coal however and Putin recently signed an energy and transport pact with China.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
So what will most likely happen is a coal swap, i.e. at sea two ships cross paths as the capacity by other suppliers to simply step in isn't there and of course for the price.
Don't agree - they've been developing relationships with third party suppliers for these things for the last decade, particularly Brazil, Russia, Indonesia and various African nations especially South Africa. Indonesia in particular has a lot of coal - admittedly not a lot of the high quality black coal needed for steel production but nevertheless China has been cultivating their relationships with those third parties carefully for just such an eventuality. Russia has plenty of good quality black coal however and Putin recently signed an energy and transport pact with China.
don_dunstan
You don't change supplier off 200mtpa of coal overnight. Apart from Indo, all other suppliers you mention have significant increase in sea freight costs as for Brazil, lets be serious.

If they wanted to diversify, then so be it and they should, single source is never a good thing. So if they can get a cheaper price, then go for it, but by and large they have not in sufficient quantities otherwise they would have changed by now.

Again at best ships will pass at sea. But if the CCP want to go elsewhere, let them. Maybe we should say no coal, then no problem, no iron ore, or gas, or Uranium or copper or alumina/bauxite, no dry milk powder, no beef ......
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
2013 called, wanting it's car industry back.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Having been to China on at least 8 occasions and visiting mainly inland locations there with only little time in the major cities including BJ, my first visit in 2002, and last in 2014 on each of those trips and going to some places more than once and in the main travelling by train what I had noticed was the amount of coal mines in China especially on the first and 2nd trip, thing is with those mines I had noticed on my last two and especially the last trip how many of them were no longer operating, other aspect as well was that a number of them re-open as the Winter kicks in especially in the North and the closer you get towards the inland mountain ranges, that coal is usually the dregs of old seams but good enough for the villages to provide heat and cooking for their homes.

China has little of the quality coal in both steaming and coking that we have in Oz, which is needed for their heavy industries over there, this is not the first time this sort of news has gotten out, as Ping made a call last year for state owned enterprises, especially the power stations to stop importing coal and use local coal, as it helps with keeping their own industries supported within the country.  I visited 3 steel mills during my times in China and all of them were modernising, to newer equipment cutting down on a lot of the pollution, in those towns that are dependant on the mills and mines for work.

China still enjoys the developing nation status under the UN, rather than a developed status as countries like the U.S most of Europe, along with Oz, as a result they get a lot of concessions in the way the country is run and has been for some time and has done so at the same force as big Typhon since Ping took over. In that time the Belt & Road thing has gone past expectations but, there are countries that signed up now regretting it, China as a developing country/economy gets things very much in their favour their military build up along with the South China Sea & island building should show the world and UN that its time for the developing nation/economy to be removed and have them changed to the same status as other countries.

Part of their reason for changing to local coal is the cost of our coal but moreso the aspect of the almost doubling of the price of Iron Ore from OZ where its now over a $110.00 a tonne compared to around $70.00 pre pandemic.

The U.S, England and other countries are all starting to change their dealings with China, especially with what are deemed as stand over/takeover tactics & not just in their own area either, this is causing many of those countries either reviewing or have reviewed their dealings with China, which includes no new contract dealings with China and closing dealer ships with China, even though the Australian Mattress company Koala has decided to stop producing here and all their mattresses will be made in China and local workers laid off.

I watch and see our PM and especially the opposition leader in his call for a new ARA Oz train/rail building/maintenance centres to be built in Oz which is a vital industry here and will create a lot of jobs going forward. This is something that not just needs to be done but has to be done not just for jobs and the kick to Australian industries, but withdrawing from using China to build items that can be built here will send a strong message to them.

Certainly the big cry will be that the building of trains, RS and other essentials is that we are slower and it will cost more, while that may indeed be correct in some areas, but there is a lot of rail centric work going on here now as the infrastructure in several areas are being expanded, and the expertise is helping as well. The more wages are paid the more taxes are there for the governments as well, we also benefit in other associated areas as well.

Australia in the past was pretty much self supporting itself, we may not get to that stage again but, we should be doing much better than we are and should not be stood over by any other country either.

Lastly in all of the trips to China I have had and the last one with my wife we were very well accepted by the local Chinese people, the last trip had us going to a small village around 80k's as the crow flies from the Russian border and the first westerners to visit there, we were greeted in truly wonderful ways with the friendliness always there, that took place also in Beijing in our last week there. I am however not sure how Australians or many long noses would be as accepted there in this time though.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
2013 called, wanting it's car industry back.
wobert
It closed in 2016/2017
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Having been to China on at least 8 occasions and visiting mainly inland locations there with only little time in the major cities including BJ, my first visit in 2002, and last in 2014 on each of those trips and going to some places more than once and in the main travelling by train what I had noticed was the amount of coal mines in China especially on the first and 2nd trip, thing is with those mines I had noticed on my last two and especially the last trip how many of them were no longer operating, other aspect as well was that a number of them re-open as the Winter kicks in especially in the North and the closer you get towards the inland mountain ranges, that coal is usually the dregs of old seams but good enough for the villages to provide heat and cooking for their homes.

China has little of the quality coal in both steaming and coking that we have in Oz, which is needed for their heavy industries over there, this is not the first time this sort of news has gotten out, as Ping made a call last year for state owned enterprises, especially the power stations to stop importing coal and use local coal, as it helps with keeping their own industries supported within the country.  I visited 3 steel mills during my times in China and all of them were modernising, to newer equipment cutting down on a lot of the pollution, in those towns that are dependant on the mills and mines for work.

China still enjoys the developing nation status under the UN, rather than a developed status as countries like the U.S most of Europe, along with Oz, as a result they get a lot of concessions in the way the country is run and has been for some time and has done so at the same force as big Typhon since Ping took over. In that time the Belt & Road thing has gone past expectations but, there are countries that signed up now regretting it, China as a developing country/economy gets things very much in their favour their military build up along with the South China Sea & island building should show the world and UN that its time for the developing nation/economy to be removed and have them changed to the same status as other countries.

Part of their reason for changing to local coal is the cost of our coal but moreso the aspect of the almost doubling of the price of Iron Ore from OZ where its now over a $110.00 a tonne compared to around $70.00 pre pandemic.

The U.S, England and other countries are all starting to change their dealings with China, especially with what are deemed as stand over/takeover tactics & not just in their own area either, this is causing many of those countries either reviewing or have reviewed their dealings with China, which includes no new contract dealings with China and closing dealer ships with China, even though the Australian Mattress company Koala has decided to stop producing here and all their mattresses will be made in China and local workers laid off.

I watch and see our PM and especially the opposition leader in his call for a new ARA Oz train/rail building/maintenance centres to be built in Oz which is a vital industry here and will create a lot of jobs going forward. This is something that not just needs to be done but has to be done not just for jobs and the kick to Australian industries, but withdrawing from using China to build items that can be built here will send a strong message to them.

Certainly the big cry will be that the building of trains, RS and other essentials is that we are slower and it will cost more, while that may indeed be correct in some areas, but there is a lot of rail centric work going on here now as the infrastructure in several areas are being expanded, and the expertise is helping as well. The more wages are paid the more taxes are there for the governments as well, we also benefit in other associated areas as well.

Australia in the past was pretty much self supporting itself, we may not get to that stage again but, we should be doing much better than we are and should not be stood over by any other country either.

Lastly in all of the trips to China I have had and the last one with my wife we were very well accepted by the local Chinese people, the last trip had us going to a small village around 80k's as the crow flies from the Russian border and the first westerners to visit there, we were greeted in truly wonderful ways with the friendliness always there, that took place also in Beijing in our last week there. I am however not sure how Australians or many long noses would be as accepted there in this time though.
a6et
Thanks for that.

By and large I find mostly people are always friendly in most countries, despite what their govt's want or don't want.

As a golden rule for my holiday travel with my family I have a few checks before choosing a destination
1) Is the country safe?
2) Does the country encourage my passport to come?
3) Does the country charge reasonable or no visa fees?

If any of these are a no, then I have 100% no issue in going somewhere else, the world is a huge place and no reason to go to places that don't want you.

and yes, having spent 2 weeks driving across many areas of China for work 2 years ago, the scale of many things especially industry will just blow your mind.

and yes yes, we need to be returning making stuff back on shore.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Having been to China on at least 8 occasions and visiting mainly inland locations there with only little time in the major cities including BJ, my first visit in 2002, and last in 2014 on each of those trips and going to some places more than once and in the main travelling by train what I had noticed was the amount of coal mines in China especially on the first and 2nd trip, thing is with those mines I had noticed on my last two and especially the last trip how many of them were no longer operating, other aspect as well was that a number of them re-open as the Winter kicks in especially in the North and the closer you get towards the inland mountain ranges, that coal is usually the dregs of old seams but good enough for the villages to provide heat and cooking for their homes.

China has little of the quality coal in both steaming and coking that we have in Oz, which is needed for their heavy industries over there, this is not the first time this sort of news has gotten out, as Ping made a call last year for state owned enterprises, especially the power stations to stop importing coal and use local coal, as it helps with keeping their own industries supported within the country.  I visited 3 steel mills during my times in China and all of them were modernising, to newer equipment cutting down on a lot of the pollution, in those towns that are dependant on the mills and mines for work.

China still enjoys the developing nation status under the UN, rather than a developed status as countries like the U.S most of Europe, along with Oz, as a result they get a lot of concessions in the way the country is run and has been for some time and has done so at the same force as big Typhon since Ping took over. In that time the Belt & Road thing has gone past expectations but, there are countries that signed up now regretting it, China as a developing country/economy gets things very much in their favour their military build up along with the South China Sea & island building should show the world and UN that its time for the developing nation/economy to be removed and have them changed to the same status as other countries.

Part of their reason for changing to local coal is the cost of our coal but moreso the aspect of the almost doubling of the price of Iron Ore from OZ where its now over a $110.00 a tonne compared to around $70.00 pre pandemic.

The U.S, England and other countries are all starting to change their dealings with China, especially with what are deemed as stand over/takeover tactics & not just in their own area either, this is causing many of those countries either reviewing or have reviewed their dealings with China, which includes no new contract dealings with China and closing dealer ships with China, even though the Australian Mattress company Koala has decided to stop producing here and all their mattresses will be made in China and local workers laid off.

I watch and see our PM and especially the opposition leader in his call for a new ARA Oz train/rail building/maintenance centres to be built in Oz which is a vital industry here and will create a lot of jobs going forward. This is something that not just needs to be done but has to be done not just for jobs and the kick to Australian industries, but withdrawing from using China to build items that can be built here will send a strong message to them.

Certainly the big cry will be that the building of trains, RS and other essentials is that we are slower and it will cost more, while that may indeed be correct in some areas, but there is a lot of rail centric work going on here now as the infrastructure in several areas are being expanded, and the expertise is helping as well. The more wages are paid the more taxes are there for the governments as well, we also benefit in other associated areas as well.

Australia in the past was pretty much self supporting itself, we may not get to that stage again but, we should be doing much better than we are and should not be stood over by any other country either.

Lastly in all of the trips to China I have had and the last one with my wife we were very well accepted by the local Chinese people, the last trip had us going to a small village around 80k's as the crow flies from the Russian border and the first westerners to visit there, we were greeted in truly wonderful ways with the friendliness always there, that took place also in Beijing in our last week there. I am however not sure how Australians or many long noses would be as accepted there in this time though.
Thanks for that.

By and large I find mostly people are always friendly in most countries, despite what their govt's want or don't want.

As a golden rule for my holiday travel with my family I have a few checks before choosing a destination
1) Is the country safe?
2) Does the country encourage my passport to come?
3) Does the country charge reasonable or no visa fees?

If any of these are a no, then I have 100% no issue in going somewhere else, the world is a huge place and no reason to go to places that don't want you.

and yes, having spent 2 weeks driving across many areas of China for work 2 years ago, the scale of many things especially industry will just blow your mind.

and yes yes, we need to be returning making stuff back on shore.
RTT_Rules
I know how much its changed especially with the huge infrastructure works and in particular their rail programs that separates freight from passenger lines, as the high speed lines are increased in km's much of the old passenger services have been cut except for busy holiday times.

For China the 3 areas are interesting to answer with now.
1: Yes it was safe and likely still is but there is a greater monitoring of westerners especially from certain countries that don't tow their line. I would not go there again sadly.
2: Never had a worry in regard to my passport, but its an essential item though.
3: China has changed, and visa's take longer to issue, and a lot more fiddly than in the past, and takes longer to get them. You also have to name locations to visit and the locations/motels etc where you will be staying. Many locations require that you surrender your pass port to the hotel, it is checked o/night by the local security services.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Not good at all but these contracts and agreements last for many years how can they just stop ordering when they have a contract to receive ?
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Not good at all but these contracts and agreements last for many years how can they just stop ordering when they have a contract to receive ?
freightgate
Because it's China. They make their own rules.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I know how much its changed especially with the huge infrastructure works and in particular their rail programs that separates freight from passenger lines, as the high speed lines are increased in km's much of the old passenger services have been cut except for busy holiday times.

For China the 3 areas are interesting to answer with now.
1: Yes it was safe and likely still is but there is a greater monitoring of westerners especially from certain countries that don't tow their line. I would not go there again sadly.
2: Never had a worry in regard to my passport, but its an essential item though.
3: China has changed, and visa's take longer to issue, and a lot more fiddly than in the past, and takes longer to get them. You also have to name locations to visit and the locations/motels etc where you will be staying. Many locations require that you surrender your pass port to the hotel, it is checked o/night by the local security services.
a6et
1) Monitoring I don't care. If I'm not doing anything wrong then nothing to worry about.

2) Passport meant, my nationality. Don't want Australian, fine, I'll go somewhere else.

3) Visa, I dropped off my passport at Abu Dhabi embassy, $40 and picked up a week later

Under no circumstances what so ever will I ever let my passport out of my sight. When I was in China and India, sometimes they say we will bring to your room after scanning in. No, I'll stand here and wait thankyou. then they try and say it will take time and i just say, fine I'll sit over there with my passport and wait for you to be ready then I'll give it to you.

Sometimes they get flustered, I don't. If they say it will take time, I say I'll be waiting at the bar with my passport. If they say police want to see it, I say fine, lets go together or call me when the police officer is here.

If it goes on, I show then the writing in the back of the passport that states by Australian law I cannot give you my passport. It usually ends at that point and I've never had to wait at the bar.

Likewise those hotels asking for business cards to save time filling out the form, I have none, I'll fill out the form.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Not good at all but these contracts and agreements last for many years how can they just stop ordering when they have a contract to receive ?
Because it's China. They make their own rules.
YM-Mundrabilla
This is where traders get involved, they will swap ships.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Maybe there's a role for New Zealand in this?

Australian coal could make a transit stop there for relabelling as Kiwi coal, just as Chinese fruit and vegetables are repacked in "Product of New Zealand" wrappers.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Maybe there's a role for New Zealand in this?

Australian coal could make a transit stop there for relabelling as Kiwi coal, just as Chinese fruit and vegetables are repacked in "Product of New Zealand" wrappers.
justapassenger


Argh shipping via 3rd "neutral" party. #1 in the "how to get around an international embargo" play book. Hell they don't even bother to change ship, just paint a new name, new crew and log book and false paperwork or "washed paperwork" for the cargo.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
2013 called, wanting it's car industry back.
It closed in 2016/2017
RTT_Rules
Whoosh!
  a6et Minister for Railways

Not good at all but these contracts and agreements last for many years how can they just stop ordering when they have a contract to receive ?
freightgate
Easy, while contracts exist with Chinese companies we have no real choice but to do the right thing and honour them, however what we do at the same time is to no longer contract a Chinese owned company for new contracts, rather we put the contracts out for Australian businesses to build the new items.

There are companies in Australian states that have had and still have the abilities and the facilities to build here.  Use Australian Steel products as well, even if it means expanding existing steel producers to increase their size, more jobs, profits and even the Oz government will benefit with more taxes.

Is there not an order for new diesel loco's for one of the haulers that is comprised of some main parts being made in the U.S and shipped to NCLE where the remaining items are made locally and all assembled here?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Not good at all but these contracts and agreements last for many years how can they just stop ordering when they have a contract to receive ?
Easy, while contracts exist with Chinese companies we have no real choice but to do the right thing and honour them, however what we do at the same time is to no longer contract a Chinese owned company for new contracts, rather we put the contracts out for Australian businesses to build the new items.

There are companies in Australian states that have had and still have the abilities and the facilities to build here.  Use Australian Steel products as well, even if it means expanding existing steel producers to increase their size, more jobs, profits and even the Oz government will benefit with more taxes.

Is there not an order for new diesel loco's for one of the haulers that is comprised of some main parts being made in the U.S and shipped to NCLE where the remaining items are made locally and all assembled here?
a6et
Yep, should have happened years ago. Maybe we have finally learnt, starts with govt contracts and flows on from there. Seems to work in the US and other countries and China is doing the same. If they only  import a certain item, the govt challenges its industry to change and once a solution is in place, sets targets
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
2013 called, wanting it's car industry back.
It closed in 2016/2017
Whoosh!
don_dunstan
The rot started long before that, we have been now this pathway before or do you and Wombat  also part of the problem need a history lesson again?
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
My question was moreover how could they stop buying our coal if there is a frame agreement or contract in place. They would need to wait for the contract to complete or end.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
My question was moreover how could they stop buying our coal if there is a frame agreement or contract in place. They would need to wait for the contract to complete or end.
freightgate
International contracts can not overrule political decisions especially as the buyers are wholly owned and situated within the PRC, it would be a case of "forced majeure".

However as I indicated previously, you don't pull 200tpa of coal production out of your bum over night, regardless of what the Chinese govt says or wants. International traders have alot of experience in dealing with political fall out/embargo's and have tricks up their sleeve to compensate. Swapping of consignments, 3rd party country trading and the list goes on. How do you think Iranian airways was able to keep flying Boeings despite not be allowed to buy parts for all these years?

My wife's company (Australian HQ) deals with Iran oil industry from time to time, they get paid in I think containers of Cashews delivered to a 3rd party port which they then on sell via a trader.

A friend who represented a Canadian supplier did work for a Iranian company, got paid in oil credits or what ever issued by a 3rd party trader which they then sell to oil traders.

Friend here in Dubai was sitting at bar one night in 2012 talking to Yank, he was a arms trader. His comment, "...you know what I like about the Taliban, they pay in cash on time, every time." Yeah, no morals in business.
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
2013 called, wanting it's car industry back.
It closed in 2016/2017
Whoosh!
The rot started long before that, we have been now this pathway before or do you and Wombat  also part of the problem need a history lesson again?
RTT_Rules
A history from you is always one of the dullest fantasies a bloke  or blokette could imagine, let alone listen to. I usually have to listen to an hour of Albert Steptoe afterwards to cheer myself up.

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