Murray Basin standardisation

 
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
Can someone link the actual revised business case?  I cannot seem to find it.
james.au
Here you go
https://transport.vic.gov.au/-/media/tfv-documents/mbrp-business-case-review---exec-summary.pdf

cheers
John

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  NSWGR8022 Deputy Commissioner

Location: From the lands of Journalism and Free Speech
Thought more about the federal government not wanting to provide more money for the rail upgrades and the lack of funding for the Mount Gambier Line. They say there is no money but they have billions in a locked box for the East West Link no one wants.  I am now starting to think the feds are being mean.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Thought more about the federal government not wanting to provide more money for the rail upgrades and the lack of funding for the Mount Gambier Line. They say there is no money but they have billions in a locked box for the East West Link no one wants.  I am now starting to think the feds are being mean.
"NSWGR8022"


To an extent that is true.  The Federal Coalition Govt needs to give up on their East-West link road dreams.  It somehow thinks there are still votes in that.

But I think if ARTC had more control of SG lines in Vic, then the $$ might be more forthcoming for properly completing the rail project.  So why aren't the State Govt willing to let this happen after the MBRP fiasco?
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
Thought more about the federal government not wanting to provide more money for the rail upgrades and the lack of funding for the Mount Gambier Line. They say there is no money but they have billions in a locked box for the East West Link no one wants.  I am now starting to think the feds are being mean.


To an extent that is true.  The Federal Coalition Govt needs to give up on their East-West link road dreams.  It somehow thinks there are still votes in that.

But I think if ARTC had more control of SG lines in Vic, then the $$ might be more forthcoming for properly completing the rail project.  So why aren't the State Govt willing to let this happen after the MBRP fiasco?
Carnot
Short memories.

Victoria still suffering the NE line fiasco, courtesy ARTC.

They haven't covered themselves with glory on any of their SG in Vic.
To this day they still believe single track into Melbourne makes good business, even InlandRail.

Only thing in favour of ARTC, is they are an outsider to blame when things invariably go wrong.

cheers
John
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Thought more about the federal government not wanting to provide more money for the rail upgrades and the lack of funding for the Mount Gambier Line. They say there is no money but they have billions in a locked box for the East West Link no one wants.  I am now starting to think the feds are being mean.


To an extent that is true.  The Federal Coalition Govt needs to give up on their East-West link road dreams.  It somehow thinks there are still votes in that.

But I think if ARTC had more control of SG lines in Vic, then the $$ might be more forthcoming for properly completing the rail project.  So why aren't the State Govt willing to let this happen after the MBRP fiasco?
Carnot
Short memories.

Victoria still suffering the NE line fiasco, courtesy ARTC.

They haven't covered themselves with glory on any of their SG in Vic.
To this day they still believe single track into Melbourne makes good business, even InlandRail.

Only thing in favour of ARTC, is they are an outsider to blame when things invariably go wrong.

cheers
John
"justarider"



And what are the common denominators for both the NE line and Murray Basin Rail fiascos?

Yep, poor track condition beforehand and short-cuts & cost-cutting in the rebuild/conversion.
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

I don't think the money's actually there for the EWL in any case. They know that Andrews will never build it, and Victoria has twice voted against it, so saying the money is available is pretty meaningless.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Short memories.

Victoria still suffering the NE line fiasco, courtesy ARTC.

They haven't covered themselves with glory on any of their SG in Vic.
To this day they still believe single track into Melbourne makes good business, even InlandRail.

Only thing in favour of ARTC, is they are an outsider to blame when things invariably go wrong.

cheers
John
justarider

In this case it is a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. We all know how bad the ARTC is but VICtrack really isn't going to get money from the federal government for a project it completely botched either.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

It doesn't appear to be a business case but a review of the original business case. One element of the Review’s Minimum Scope is ‘Business Case development’. Without the redacted costs, you can't tell which parts of the Review form the $244 million revised business case put to the Australian Government.

Given RP’s penchant for conspiracies, as far as we know, the revised business case might be to SG the Korong Vale group and have all freights go via Ararat, a sort of de facto 135 km diversion round Ballarat. Apart from getting rid of those pesky freights, this would save the cost of Tourello loop and Ballarat (Warrenheip) – Gheringhap could be mothballed. You could tart it up with a vague promise to SG, in some form, Maryborough - Gheringhap sometime in the 'future'. The proposed Ballarat Intermodal could be a problem.
  hbedriver Chief Train Controller

Time for some lateral thinking.

Close Inglewood -Dunolly.
Remove BG rail Dunolly - Maryborough.
Duplicate Ballarat -Warrenheip.
Close Warrenheip - Gheringhap.
Remove BG rail (and complex turnouts) Gheringhap - North Geelong.

Now re-open Eaglehawk _ Inglewood, and use the released rails from Inglewood to North Geelong sections for Ararat - Maryborough section (thus saving heaps). Cricket, most of that’s better than 80lb antiques.

For the given task (north of Korong Vale To Appleton Dock), you reduce the track distance substantially. Bendigo to Melb has spare daytime capacity, plus oodles at night.

You also get a quick and cheap duplication around Ballarat.

You also save a huge detour from Inglewood to Melb, rather than doubling the distance.

Costs; SFA for rail recovery. Going with Kukdalai’s estimate, $30 million for Eaglehawk to Inglewood ( which can be offset against running pass trains serving Maiden Gully and Marong, both growth areas)

The big question now, will DD707 love or hate the idea?
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

Time for some lateral thinking.

Close Inglewood -Dunolly.
Remove BG rail Dunolly - Maryborough.
Duplicate Ballarat -Warrenheip.
Close Warrenheip - Gheringhap.
Remove BG rail (and complex turnouts) Gheringhap - North Geelong.

Now re-open Eaglehawk _ Inglewood, and use the released rails from Inglewood to North Geelong sections for Ararat - Maryborough section (thus saving heaps). Cricket, most of that’s better than 80lb antiques.

For the given task (north of Korong Vale To Appleton Dock), you reduce the track distance substantially. Bendigo to Melb has spare daytime capacity, plus oodles at night.

You also get a quick and cheap duplication around Ballarat.

You also save a huge detour from Inglewood to Melb, rather than doubling the distance.

Costs; SFA for rail recovery. Going with Kukdalai’s estimate, $30 million for Eaglehawk to Inglewood ( which can be offset against running pass trains serving Maiden Gully and Marong, both growth areas)

The big question now, will DD707 love or hate the idea?
hbedriver

OK So after you duplicate Ballarat -Warrenheip, what will happen to the line from Warrenheip to North Geelong?  I am fine with all the other ideas.

Now for my version of lateral thinking. Let's take Appleton Dock out of the mix entirely. Let's look at Portland. A natural deep water harbour with plenty of capacity for expansion.

A train from Mildura - Maryborough - Ararat - Portland is 672 kms (based on the Vicsig website) where as Mildura - Maryborough - Ballarat -  North Geelong -  Appleton Dock, is 612 kms. So an extra 60 kms. BUT! If the line from Mildura was upgraded properly, and the line from Ararat to Portland got a suitable upgrade, then the extra line speed would more than make up for the extra distance.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

"Close Warrenheip - Gheringhap." - hbedriver
  Bonzel Junior Train Controller

Spot on Hbedriver been thinking same , the Sealake and Nullawill grains ran via Bendigo for years till the floods.
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
Bonzel,
That was back in the day of an up & down track to Bendigo.
Now with the new & improved single line ...
  Carnot Minister for Railways

There is no need to rip up Gheringhap-Warrenheip line, or close Dunolly-Inglewood for that matter.  It provides a useful and direct path to North Geelong grain loop etc, and also for Alstom/Bombardier transfers.

Only 2000m of 47 lb rail is needed on Inglewood-Eaglehawk line.  Just grab that from near Newstead off the Castlemaine-Maryburger line.  It's not that far to cart to Bridgewater.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

There is no need to rip up Gheringhap-Warrenheip line, or close Dunolly-Inglewood for that matter.  It provides a useful and direct path to North Geelong grain loop etc, and also for Alstom/Bombardier transfers.

Only 2000m of 47 lb rail is needed on Inglewood-Eaglehawk line.  Just grab that from near Newstead off the Castlemaine-Maryburger line.  It's not that far to cart to Bridgewater.
Carnot
Even easier and better than that to replace the flood damaged track  near Inglewood around 2 kms.

North Line at Millbrook closing in January 2021 gives you 7 - 8kms of jointed 107lb rail, and thousands of bg sleepers with 10 - 15 years life left suitable for goods line use, plus five (5) sets of booms of which 4 could be used on roads at down end Eaglehawk where the Swan Hill & Inglewood lines diverge, two lx between there and Marong, one at Leichardt, and one at Down end of Bridgewater.

Gheringhap - Ballarat has to stay as direct grain route to Geelong plus Geelong - Ballarat VLP is inevitable (More population Geelong/Ballarat than on all 5 Inter City corridors beyond the Commuter zone.) Dunolly - Inglewood for grain to Geelong, plus allows a Ballarat - Maryborough - Dunolly - Inglewood - Marong - Bendigo pass in future.
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.

OK So after you duplicate Ballarat -Warrenheip, what will happen to the line from Warrenheip to North Geelong?  I am fine with all the other ideas.

Now for my version of lateral thinking. Let's take Appleton Dock out of the mix entirely. Let's look at Portland. A natural deep water harbour with plenty of capacity for expansion.

A train from Mildura - Maryborough - Ararat - Portland is 672 kms (based on the Vicsig website) where as Mildura - Maryborough - Ballarat -  North Geelong -  Appleton Dock, is 612 kms. So an extra 60 kms. BUT! If the line from Mildura was upgraded properly, and the line from Ararat to Portland got a suitable upgrade, then the extra line speed would more than make up for the extra distance.
Duncs
Well hbedriver certainly drew a line in the sand..Shocked.. more like the Grand Canyon through the desert ! Despite the merits or otherwise of that version, it would require someone with a fair pair of nuts to pull that together and nobody in the Gov't or Transport Dep't have nuts anymore !!

Now Duncs old mate, going to be a real spoil sport here, despite your logic & enthusiasm, I assume your talking about grain to Portland. But this has been thrashed out fairly well, the Port's owners seem to be happy with wood chips being the main form of $$$ for them, anything else is just a bit of cash for the christmas party. The grain loading ability also slow as a wet week so only good for topping up ships, the rail yard is a Pig, think the train has to be broken up into 3.

 If GrainCorp were going to update their site, it probably would have been in 2015 with their other upgrading works.

Not saying an expansion couldn't happen but it would have to be one hell of a work over.

BigShunter.
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

Hi BigShunter

That sort of upgrade for Portland is exactly what I have in mind.

I would also go further and upgrade the track to ARTC Standard, so 60kg rail and full concrete sleepers. That way Portland can feed directly into the intermodal freight network. So trains from Maroona/Ararat to Portland can do 100kph on a 23 ton axle load. Now that would inject some much needed competition into the Port of Melbourne.
  NSWGR8022 Deputy Commissioner

Location: From the lands of Journalism and Free Speech
Spot on Hbedriver been thinking same , the Sealake and Nullawill grains ran via Bendigo for years till the floods.
Bonzel

So did the Boort goods probably meant trains could be crewed out of Bendigo as a depot?
  NSWGR8022 Deputy Commissioner

Location: From the lands of Journalism and Free Speech
"Close Warrenheip - Gheringhap." - hbedriver
kitchgp

Why?
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
What's Rainbow got to do with MBRP?

The report did say near Rainbow.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Well this is what's it's about, looks like this slipped past the keeper and went for 4, wobert & I need to pay more attention.

I emailed the Dimmy Courier about this and his response and attachments below;

We ran a story a couple of weeks ago regarding the works on the Dimboola-Rainbow railway line works. They’re beginning at Rainbow and working their way south replacing sleepers with both concrete and timber ones, although likely not all given that some were replaced with timber earlier in the year. We’re planning on publishing some photos within the next week or so of the work at Rainbow and we’ll most likely run a story when the works are complete too.

https://www.dimboolacourier.com.au/news.php?newsid=5124

So it would appear we will get another update on progression, shortly.

https://www.dimboolacourier.com.au/news.php?newsid=4986 another related article.

Once again, any maintenance is good news but to be slapping some concrete sleepers in is excellent news, wonder if they have finally be listening to kuldalai with his low cost line program from NSW.

It also sounds like the maintenance cycle they did 6 months ago recieved a good workout, Since reopening in late March, trains run by operators Pacific National, Southern Shorthaul Railroad, and Qube Logistics have traversed the line transporting a reported 100,000 tonnes of grain.

BigShunter.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

With the Rainbow line story was VLP were busy spraying white paint on all the crappy wooden sleepers to come out, when someone suggested to the fluoro budgies - that it would be a lot quicker and save a lot of white paint if they just sprayed the sleepers to stay !!!!
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Getting back to Victoria's unfunded Claytons MB Option - it is just a proposal , with Feds having declined to fund an outrageous 80 % ask by Victoria, and no funding from Victoria allocated as yet in the still to be delivered State Budget.  So Media Release saying "Wer'e Getting on With Murray Basin"  is totally dis-ingenious at best.

Re-railing Ararat - Maryborough to allow 21t axle loads and 65 kmh for all heavier locos claims 1 hour time saving, but in reality more like 30 mins from the increased line speed, 15 minutes from removing the 15kmh gauge splitter at the Up end of Maryborough, and finally 45 mins by commissioning the signalling on the cross link at Ararat some  nearly two years since the cross link opened !!!! (Yet another Victorian "BLUE HILLS" saga with no urgency to bring to a conclusion on the part of either ARTC or VLP. ). The saw roothed gradient profile on the line between Maryborough and Ararat makes it hard to realize any further dramatic time savings over the hour proposed.  Like increasing the line speed further from 65kmh to 80kmh might realize 10 - 15 mins more saved , and then becomes an issue of diminishing returns like 80kmh to 100kmh would only save around 5 - 10 minutes more.

Thus 65kmh given the curvature and saw tooth gradient profile all 88 kms is likely to be the optimum freight speed irrespective of how much hp one throws at the task.

When and if ever funded the re-railing coupled with the proposed loop near Elmshurst will be a hell of an improvement, and a demonstration of the disgraceful initial speccing in using century old rail and totally ignoring the need for a crossing loop in what is effectively a 109 km  single track section for standard gauge trains from Maryborough to Maroona (and even to Tatyoon for some longer trains.)
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
I cant believe that money spent on Mary-Ararat has a positive CBA compared to doing something with Mary-Gheringhap.

HBE, like your ideas, except SG Warrenheip-Gheringhap has to be the answer.  Which would allow for a lot of track simplification in the Gheringhap-Geelong corridor.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I cant believe that money spent on Mary-Ararat has a positive CBA compared to doing something with Mary-Gheringhap.

HBE, like your ideas, except SG Warrenheip-Gheringhap has to be the answer.  Which would allow for a lot of track simplification in the Gheringhap-Geelong corridor.
james.au

That is all BG. There is no SG in that corridor from my understanding and with BG passenger services it is highly likely to stay DD707's favourite gauge.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
I cant believe that money spent on Mary-Ararat has a positive CBA compared to doing something with Mary-Gheringhap.

HBE, like your ideas, except SG Warrenheip-Gheringhap has to be the answer.  Which would allow for a lot of track simplification in the Gheringhap-Geelong corridor.

That is all BG. There is no SG in that corridor from my understanding and with BG passenger services it is highly likely to stay DD707's favourite gauge.
simstrain
Doing something to M-G would be the SG option....

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