Holden Brand to be axed

 
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Most GT300 runs a lot of GT3 cars in it, with GT300 covering the more unusual one offs and weird cars that run crazy non standard to the original car layouts.
speedemon08
But since SuperGT has already done the Balance of Performance work on it, no reason not to leave the option open in case a Japanese team wants to run one of their silhouette cars here.

So, how about GT3 and TCR in the same race then? Razz
speedemon08
Creventic do that in the 24H Series, which the Bathurst 12 Hour was affiliated to before it switched to the SRO organised Intercontinental GT Challenge.

In this year's 24H Dubai (which lasted only 7 hours before being red flagged due to heavy rain flooding the circuit) the difference in best lap times between the GT3 and TCR classes was 11.7%, and the difference in laps completed 9% (TCR cars aided by laps under full course caution).

In percentage terms, the GT3/TCR difference is almost exactly the same as the difference between the LMP2 outright winner and GT3 class winner at the 4 Hours of The Bend held the same weekend.

A Creventic race would be a perfect fit for an endurance race on the 7.7km circuit at The Bend, possibly using the East Circuit pit lane for the TCR cars.

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  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
RTT_Rules; you accused me only recently of being obsessed with the Attack Class Project and yet here you are hijacking yet another un-related thread with a really long tirade (1,068 words in fact) about how wonderful and necessary they are.

Please explain!
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

RTT_Rules; you accused me only recently of being obsessed with the Attack Class Project and yet here you are hijacking yet another un-related thread with a really long tirade (1,068 words in fact) about how wonderful and necessary they are.

Please explain!
don_dunstan
Get a room!
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

In this year's 24H Dubai (which lasted only 7 hours before being red flagged due to heavy rain flooding the circuit) the difference in best lap times between the GT3 and TCR classes was 11.7%, and the difference in laps completed 9% (TCR cars aided by laps under full course caution).
justapassenger
I live within a mile of that circuit, "heavy rain" is an understatement. We had cars floating 100m from our house.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
RTT_Rules; you accused me only recently of being obsessed with the Attack Class Project and yet here you are hijacking yet another un-related thread with a really long tirade (1,068 words in fact) about how wonderful and necessary they are.

Please explain!
Get a room!
justapassenger
I'm not that kind of guy!
(Not that there is anything wrong with that)
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

There is no suggestion that General Motors will stop selling cars here.
I expect that some Korean built cars will arrive with the Chevrolet badges they carry in other markets.
It's not just a suggestion, it's been confirmed that GM is not doing any more right hand drive vehicles anywhere. They left the UK/Ireland market a couple of years ago (sold off Opel and Vauxhall to Groupe PSA) are exiting Thailand this year as well as Australia/NZ.

The new Corvette (a mid-engined supercar, a step away from the traditional Corvette segment of being an affordable sports coupe) is engineered to be built as either LHD/RHD so there's a possibility that RHD models might be available in low numbers, but apart from that it will be down to aftermarket conversions.

If GM is resolute on not building any RHD cars, what does that mean for us? Will Ford, FCA and others follow suit? Will we get a new industry of go-between conversion companies replacing the dashboard, and moving everything (including the steering arm) under the hood due to (the traditional) weaker structures on the right side of the car? Expensive!
For a start, FCA is being taken over by Groupe PSA over the course of this year so they won't be building anything anywhere. Hopefully Jeep will be shut down pronto.

We won't see RHD disappear completely, as every company stepping away from RHD will increase the market share available to other companies which are still doing RHD (this also applies within companies, where they have some dual platforms and some LHD only platforms) and an equilibrium will eventually be reached. What will probably happen is that the choice available in Australia will decrease and RHD models will be even more stripped down versions of the larger market LHD models.

As you rightly point out, conversion of a LHD only platform is difficult and expensive work. There are already companies doing import-and-convert jobs, but they are only applicable for exotic needs (supercars, technology demonstrators, armoured saloon cars etc) and not for normal passenger cars.

I'd predict that Ford will stick with dual platforms and will stay in the Australian market, but that their presence in Australia will soon be downsized to just the same sort of sales/service stuff that other companies such as Mitsubishi have. There's simply no need to have the headcount they have in Australia when they don't build anything here.

If our cars come from countries like South Korea (and China) who are willing to make anything cheaply, and we keep buying Toyotas, will American cars permanently bite our red dust? I guess much depends on what can be made for the British and Japanese markets.
Yes, American cars will become even more rare in Australia than they are currently. I say good riddance, almost all of them are terrible cars.

Even Tesla will only be an American-based company now that the bulk of production has shifted to China and design/engineering work is due to shift to Germany. The shift to Germany is a smart move, their current strength of PR hype getting in the early adopters will only get them so far and they will need quality design to stay competitive against the big boys.

Anyways, after this transition ends. The existing Holden's will skyrocket in price!
I predict that resale value of Holdens will plummet. Too much uncertainty over reliability and the availability of quality servicing.

Apart from a handful of the limited edition HSV versions or certain pre-Commodore cars if kept in pristine condition, Holdens are too ordinary to have collectable value.
justapassenger
I read somewhere that a new Camaro is being tooled up in RHD and will come down the assembly line as RHD vehicles unlike the conversions presently done by HSV. Whilst GM quoted it was exiting the mass RHD market it did leave the door ajar for a special vehicles section much like HSV was. No firm decision has been made whether the RHD Camaro will proceed.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

I read somewhere that a new Camaro is being tooled up in RHD and will come down the assembly line as RHD vehicles unlike the conversions presently done by HSV. Whilst GM quoted it was exiting the mass RHD market it did leave the door ajar for a special vehicles section much like HSV was. No firm decision has been made whether the RHD Camaro will proceed.
nswtrains
Development of the next Camaro was stopped last year.

You can't do RHD conversions of a LHD car that doesn't exist!
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
The new Corvette (a mid-engined supercar, a step away from the traditional Corvette segment of being an affordable sports coupe) is engineered to be built as either LHD/RHD so there's a possibility that RHD models might be available in low numbers, but apart from that it will be down to aftermarket conversions.
I read somewhere that a new Camaro is being tooled up in RHD and will come down the assembly line as RHD vehicles unlike the conversions presently done by HSV. Whilst GM quoted it was exiting the mass RHD market it did leave the door ajar for a special vehicles section much like HSV was. No firm decision has been made whether the RHD Camaro will proceed.
nswtrains
I think you are getting your Camaros confused with your Corvettes. The mid engine design of the next generation 'Vette makes it a doddle to RHD convert, something that GM have struggled with over the years as they never seemed to be able to / bother with designing cars for both LHD and RHD markets. It's not Rocket Surgery but still apparantly too much for GM's American engineers to handle.
  ANR Chief Commissioner

I know this is an old thread, but so is Covid 19.

Camaro it is in 2022!!!

https://www.supercars.com/news/championship/camaro-to-join-supercars-grid-in-2022/

It will be a great racing series: Fords v GM. Mustang v Camaro (and maybe.... v Challenger????) not to mention in the Bathurst 1000.
  Big J Deputy Commissioner

Location: In Paradise
I know this is an old thread, but so is Covid 19.

Camaro it is in 2022!!!

https://www.supercars.com/news/championship/camaro-to-join-supercars-grid-in-2022/

It will be a great racing series: Fords v GM. Mustang v Camaro (and maybe.... v Challenger????) not to mention in the Bathurst 1000.
ANR
Yes it is good news for Supercars.

However at the moment I don't there are plans to restart RHD conversions of the car for this market by HSV (or whatever they are called these days).

So this is in essence this is a different shell for the Gen3 Supercar to the Ford shell.

The category is struggling, eg there were only 25 cars at the start of the great race. Probably the smallest field ever. That is telling. Also the TV rights haven't help to broaden access. I love watching local drivers, at local tracks in V8s, but the category is at a cross roads, even before COVID19.

It will be interesting to see if other categories become more popular. Look at the change of car ownership. People that use to buy HSV or Ford GTs, now either buy off top end roaders (modify them to the max or buy RAMs etc) or Euros such as Audis, BMWs and Mercs that are in that price range. I think categories in that space will change.

Off roader racing will grow here like motocross in the 70s/80s and Euro racing (GT catagories/production car) will grow more in popularity. Supercars are not dead, but they need to really turn the trend.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Gen3 has a smaller roll cage than Gen2, so the body shells should be a little closer to resembling the road cars as opposed to the current 'Mustang' which is the size of a Falcon.

The big news is that Supercars will be introducing a category engine, so teams will have the option of just ordering engines in crates instead of developing their own engines and adapting them to the standardised transmission used in the car.

I reckon the best strategy would be to have Gen3 in 2022 and then make it a mixed Gen3 + GT3 series from 2023 onwards, with the existing FIA/SRO Balance of Performance process used to keep all runner competitive. That would increase the choice from 2 cars in 2022 (2 Gen3 silhouette cars) to 54+ cars (2+ Gen3 silhouette cars + at least 52 GT3 cars).

Small grids are a major problem that need to be addressed. Adopting a regulation set that makes wildcard entries easier (alongside the full-season championship teams) would go a long way to shoring up the future of the series.
  K160 Minister for Railways

Location: Bendigo
Gen3 has a smaller roll cage than Gen2, so the body shells should be a little closer to resembling the road cars as opposed to the current 'Mustang' which is the size of a Falcon.

The big news is that Supercars will be introducing a category engine, so teams will have the option of just ordering engines in crates instead of developing their own engines and adapting them to the standardised transmission used in the car.

I reckon the best strategy would be to have Gen3 in 2022 and then make it a mixed Gen3 + GT3 series from 2023 onwards, with the existing FIA/SRO Balance of Performance process used to keep all runner competitive. That would increase the choice from 2 cars in 2022 (2 Gen3 silhouette cars) to 54+ cars (2+ Gen3 silhouette cars + at least 52 GT3 cars).

Small grids are a major problem that need to be addressed. Adopting a regulation set that makes wildcard entries easier (alongside the full-season championship teams) would go a long way to shoring up the future of the series.
justapassenger

The current Supercars Mustang has always looked a bit strange but that is because they had to stretch it to fit over the current control chassis (which is based around a 4-door sedan). The current chassis was fine for the Holden VF (which was introduced the same year as the so-called 'Car Of The Future' regs came in 2013 and was retired in 2018 to make way for the ZB) and the FG Falcon (although it did suffer slightly in being a model introduced in 2009 under the 'Project Blueprint' regs and things improved with the FG-X in 2015) but Gen3 has become necessary sooner now rather than later. The Super2 teams will then get the current Gen2 cars.

It is going to be interesting to see how the costs per car go as the COTF ended up being just as expensive as the Blueprint cars in terms of the initial costs. That said the safety improvements were much needed.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Another massive blow for Supercars, they have lost the highest crowd pulling event of the circuit with the Adelaide 500 being permanently cancelled.

Supercars seem to have a pretty clear view of who is the biggest loser out of this. Their press release in response concluded with this shamefully desperate line:
If, at any time in the future, the South Australian Government decides to recommence the Adelaide 500, Supercars would be delighted to be there.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
A sad day for a few of my mates tomorrow as the Holden DC in Fisherman's Bend closes marking the end of Holden (or what was left of it).

I don't want to rake over too much old ground as I know many RPers don't agree with my views but we were one of the few countries in the world who could engineer a car from design to production.

If you want to see some of the stuff that the boys at the Design Centre did in their spare time take a look at this article

https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/holdens-best-concept-cars-127030/

From Hurricane to Effigy there are some real beauties in that lot but the GTR-X is my fave. And I remember my friends telling me about the car they were working on - the car that became the Monaro - when they had consumed a few too many at our local - a top secret project that many worked on after work and without pay. Why? Because they just loved cars and because it was a great idea from Mike Simcoe
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

I thought that the Elfin MS8 was the best work of Simcoe's team, but like so many of their other projects never one to reach its potential.

It was let down by having a big heavy lump of lazy V8 in it, when it should have had the front shortened to save weight from the chassis and the OPC 2.8L Turbo V6 fitted.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
A sad day for a few of my mates tomorrow as the Holden DC in Fisherman's Bend closes marking the end of Holden (or what was left of it).

I don't want to rake over too much old ground as I know many RPers don't agree with my views but we were one of the few countries in the world who could engineer a car from design to production.

If you want to see some of the stuff that the boys at the Design Centre did in their spare time take a look at this article

https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/holdens-best-concept-cars-127030/

From Hurricane to Effigy there are some real beauties in that lot but the GTR-X is my fave. And I remember my friends telling me about the car they were working on - the car that became the Monaro - when they had consumed a few too many at our local - a top secret project that many worked on after work and without pay. Why? Because they just loved cars and because it was a great idea from Mike Simcoe
BrentonGolding
All very interesting, and it seems sad to lose Holden DC on the surface, but we still have Ford employing 2000 designers/engineers etc. in Australia.

What Holden came up with over the years is interesting. It almost seems like a rort that people were actually getting paid to come up with cars like the Effigy when it resulted in absolute zero. Compare this to Ford who came up with cars like the hugely successful Territory, which Holden could only counter with the dismal Adventra!

At the end of the day Holden couldn't design their way out of a paper bag.
  Old Northern Locomotive Driver

What Holden came up with over the years is interesting. It almost seems like a rort that people were actually getting paid to come up with cars like the Effigy when it resulted in absolute zero. Compare this to Ford who came up with cars like the hugely successful Territory, which Holden could only counter with the dismal Adventra!

At the end of the day Holden couldn't design their way out of a paper bag.
DirtyBallast
I think that it was more a case of poor management and poor product planning that led to the demise of Holden, rather than any shortcomings in the Design Centre.

That and the parent company being in what looked like the terminal stages of financial decline.

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