New intercity commuter trains

 
  M636C Minister for Railways

My ultimate vision is that all Intercity services should operate on a strict set down/pick up policy through the suburban network, terminating at Central, and suburban services continue into and through the CBD along existing and new CBD extensions.

How do the services to and from Gosford via the North Shore fit with this vision?
These are fully integrated with the suburban services on the same lines.
Even taking them out of the suburban timetable is unlikely to help.

I can recall the times when "country" trains did not allow  suburban passengers...

To some extent this continues with Countrylink trains, of course, just as some trains were limited to booked seat passengers before the separation of Countrylink.

A possibility would be introducing booked seats only on some Intercity services, as of course was the case with the Newcastle Flyers and the South Coast Daylight Express both of which ran within the current Intercity area.

Peter                        

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  a6et Minister for Railways

Its been some time since I have caught a train to Sydney, or return but my wife goes down fairly regular and will ask her about the Eastwood stop, although she does not worry about those aspects overall, to me its a good move really.

Interesting also for me with the service that terminates in Central station and the reason behind it.  Some time back when I was an AFULE official I was on a working party which was working on how to get more trains running in the congested area from MacTown/Illawarra Jct to the North Shore and CC.  What was found was that there was sufficient track space to have more suburban services mostly from the West & Northern lines if the terminated at Central especially on platforms 13 & 14, at that time also the old carriage shed sidings still existed to the western end of the amenities buildings next to the Down Shore line.

From Memory there was the prospect of fitting in several extra trains that once they had the passengers out the train, the driver could change ends and take the set to one of the two main sidings that were still operational. Those movements allowed for at least 4 or more services that could terminate there and either go out to Flemo for servicing or go out on down trains and only using the Main Lines.  Certainly the change at Central was an issue up to a point but any of the 4 shortish platforms outside the GFO concourse area, it was possible to have faster services running as well as extra ones.

By the time these suggestions were put in place there was a change in government and that now, or at least the last time I went past that area, its no longer possible as those sidings had been pulled up and replaced by mounds of dirt and old ballast. Am heading to Central next Monday so will look at what's there now but I think its all being used for the Sydenham metro thingy.
We're getting a little bit off topic now, but it's worth mentioning that over the past few decades, there has been a push by governments of both persuasions to wring the most out of the existing infrastructure, particularly on the Western Line corridor, rather than bite the bullet and commit to expensive further track amplification through the inner city suburbs into and through the CBD.  

There were long standing proposals to terminate all Northern Line services at Central, freeing up paths for increased Western Line services through the CBD and across the Harbour Bridge.  It was never pursued as it was considered to be politically unacceptable, and rightly so.  However, the introduction of the incompatible metro system in converting the Epping to Chatswood Line, forced their hand and they had no option other than to divert suburban services to and from Hornsby in peak hours via the Main tracks to Sydney Terminal, as there were no paths available on the Suburban tracks through the CBD.

While the government likes to pretend that Metro West will resolve this lack of track capacity through the inner suburbs for outer suburban and intercity services, the reality is that it won't.

Bradfield's original vision of constructing the City Underground to allow all suburban services to avoid Sydney Terminal and continue into the CBD core, and significantly reduce interchange congestion in the process, is as relevant today as it was a century ago.  While terminating more suburban services at Central may be considered as a stop-gap, sooner or later future State governments are going to have to wake up to the fact that building more metro lines alone won't resolve the overcrowding and congestion on the existing network and further investment in funding upgrades will be just as important.

My ultimate vision is that all Intercity services should operate on a strict set down/pick up policy through the suburban network, terminating at Central, and suburban services continue into and through the CBD along existing and new CBD extensions.
Transtopic
In what you have said I agree with totally.  The problem with it all is for me especially the metro concept is while they may work ok for short journey's the limited seating makes it bad for those travelling long distances and times. I have used them in Beijing and Hong Kong once out of the inner areas of the city they use fast full seating trains based on metro designs, they also have drivers, or stand by crews in the lead car in case of a malfunction with the driverless aspect.

The big problem with Bradfield's vision was that it really did not and probably could not envisage the scope and size of the growth that has been experienced in Sydney over the years moreso in the past 10 years I would suggest. The vision that the current state government has is for band aid solutions based on some form of dreaming and using cheap band aides at expensive amounts.

The cost of their current vision surrounding the Metro's is nuts while ok to a point, the decision for the Bankstown line and an isolated one for Badgery Creek is dumb. They have committed with the work expansion to Sydenham and really that is where it should stop, I don't like the idea of train changing but it would be better to have a cross platform interchange from Metro to ordinary trains there than destroy a line that does work although have the line upgraded where needed.

Having the Metro from Parramatta to the City along with a connection to Epping should be the focus but here again in the shape of the HR system that was to have a connection to Epping from Parramatta to Carlingford then to Epping is now a metro.

That's it for off topic for me.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Its been some time since I have caught a train to Sydney, or return but my wife goes down fairly regular and will ask her about the Eastwood stop, although she does not worry about those aspects overall, to me its a good move really.

Interesting also for me with the service that terminates in Central station and the reason behind it.  Some time back when I was an AFULE official I was on a working party which was working on how to get more trains running in the congested area from MacTown/Illawarra Jct to the North Shore and CC.  What was found was that there was sufficient track space to have more suburban services mostly from the West & Northern lines if the terminated at Central especially on platforms 13 & 14, at that time also the old carriage shed sidings still existed to the western end of the amenities buildings next to the Down Shore line.

From Memory there was the prospect of fitting in several extra trains that once they had the passengers out the train, the driver could change ends and take the set to one of the two main sidings that were still operational. Those movements allowed for at least 4 or more services that could terminate there and either go out to Flemo for servicing or go out on down trains and only using the Main Lines.  Certainly the change at Central was an issue up to a point but any of the 4 shortish platforms outside the GFO concourse area, it was possible to have faster services running as well as extra ones.

By the time these suggestions were put in place there was a change in government and that now, or at least the last time I went past that area, its no longer possible as those sidings had been pulled up and replaced by mounds of dirt and old ballast. Am heading to Central next Monday so will look at what's there now but I think its all being used for the Sydenham metro thingy.
a6et

Post metro construction and if platforms 13,14 and 15 return you may find more northern and western line trains doing as you mentioned. It really is the only solution in the short term that could occur.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Its been some time since I have caught a train to Sydney, or return but my wife goes down fairly regular and will ask her about the Eastwood stop, although she does not worry about those aspects overall, to me its a good move really.

Interesting also for me with the service that terminates in Central station and the reason behind it.  Some time back when I was an AFULE official I was on a working party which was working on how to get more trains running in the congested area from MacTown/Illawarra Jct to the North Shore and CC.  What was found was that there was sufficient track space to have more suburban services mostly from the West & Northern lines if the terminated at Central especially on platforms 13 & 14, at that time also the old carriage shed sidings still existed to the western end of the amenities buildings next to the Down Shore line.

From Memory there was the prospect of fitting in several extra trains that once they had the passengers out the train, the driver could change ends and take the set to one of the two main sidings that were still operational. Those movements allowed for at least 4 or more services that could terminate there and either go out to Flemo for servicing or go out on down trains and only using the Main Lines.  Certainly the change at Central was an issue up to a point but any of the 4 shortish platforms outside the GFO concourse area, it was possible to have faster services running as well as extra ones.

By the time these suggestions were put in place there was a change in government and that now, or at least the last time I went past that area, its no longer possible as those sidings had been pulled up and replaced by mounds of dirt and old ballast. Am heading to Central next Monday so will look at what's there now but I think its all being used for the Sydenham metro thingy.

Post metro construction and if platforms 13,14 and 15 return you may find more northern and western line trains doing as you mentioned. It really is the only solution in the short term that could occur.
simstrain
Sims, I would see it as an ideal situation, as it is now most of the platforms at Central have I/Us there for a large part of the day, while from what I have witnessed in the past was that early trains after arriving at Central tend to tie up a platform if they are not heading out to Flemo for servicing and the like. A short move to those refuge sidings waiting for a down path to Flemo opens the platforms up for more arrivals, and that could include sets that could go back for other working.
  Transtopic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney
My ultimate vision is that all Intercity services should operate on a strict set down/pick up policy through the suburban network, terminating at Central, and suburban services continue into and through the CBD along existing and new CBD extensions.

How do the services to and from Gosford via the North Shore fit with this vision?
These are fully integrated with the suburban services on the same lines.
Even taking them out of the suburban timetable is unlikely to help.


M636C
Running Intercity trains, and in the near future the NIF, on the North Shore Line in peak hours is problematic.  Unlike all of the other Intercity lines, there are no sections of quad track between Hornsby and Waverton/North Sydney, allowing the Intercity trains to overtake the slower suburban services.  It's unlikely this will ever happen to accommodate a handful of Intercity trains in peak hours, now that the metro is being extended to the CBD.

By way of a typical example, an Intercity train departs Hornsby 6 minutes after the all stops service and arrives at Chatswood 3 minutes behind.  This is despite the Intercity service stopping only once (Gordon) and the all stops at 8 intermediate stations. In fact both services take the same time of 10 minutes between Gordon and Chatswood, when the Intercity has no stops and the suburban 3 intermediate stops.  

You would normally expect in such a scenario that the Intercity service would overtake the all stations suburban service well before Chatswood if quad track or even passing loops were available.  Even worse, the Intercity services between Chatswood and the City are slowed down further by having to stop all stations to allow the NSL to operate at its maximum frequency of 20tph, at least until the metro extension becomes operational.  There's no justification for Intercity services to stop at Artarmon, Wollstonecraft or Waverton, just to fit in with the suburban timetable.

The NSL timetable as it stands is a dog's breakfast with an inconsistent mix of stopping patterns, which is exacerbated further with the Intercity services thrown in.  I acknowledge this won't please everyone, especially those directly affected, but I would prefer to see the Intercity service via the NSL diverted to Sydney Terminal via Strathfield, which will have more overtaking opportunities on the Northern Line once the quad is completed between Epping and Strathfield.  CCN commuters could have cross platform interchange between Platforms 2 and 3 at Hornsby to the NSL in the morning peak with only a marginal increase in journey time (3 minutes at the most). Admittedly, the evening peak interchange at Hornsby won't be as convenient, transferring from Platform 2 to Platforms 4/5.  They could also have a faster journey to the Macquarie Park stations by interchanging to the metro at Epping.

In respect of a longer term revamp of the NSL timetable, assuming Intercity services are diverted via Strathfield, I would ideally like to see a single all stops operating pattern, which could be speeded up significantly once ATO is introduced and speed limits upgraded. This has been argued by Ron Christie in the past. At worst, I could accept a 2 phase operating pattern, with the longer distance services (ex-Berowra) running semi-express throughout the day, not just in the peak.
  Transtopic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Post metro construction and if platforms 13,14 and 15 return you may find more northern and western line trains doing as you mentioned. It really is the only solution in the short term that could occur.
simstrain
I agree with you on that score and I expect this to happen as the existing network becomes even more congested, in spite of the metro.  However, as you say it's a short term solution and sooner or later, the government of the day has to face up to the fact that further amplifications and extensions of the existing network into and through the CBD will be required.  There will only be two platforms reinstated to replace surface platforms 13, 14 and 15 post metro construction (presumably platforms 13 and14).  Whether it will trigger a renumbering of all suburban platforms, remains to be seen.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Some further updates overnight with some photos. https://t.co/EaG8a6iLuf?amp=1

Some images from SMH





  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Further there is some nice video floating around of the cars being delivered and placed on the rails at the port.  I am assuming carrington?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Further there is some nice video floating around of the cars being delivered and placed on the rails at the port.  I am assuming carrington?
bevans
Port Kembla
  Yappo Station Master

Seems like a 2021 start date looks more realistic with issues like this still to resolve?

Report raises concern with NIF operating model, 26/11/20
An independent report has found fault with the operating model for the New Intercity Fleet (NIF). The report, commissioned by the Rail, Tram and Bus Union, (RTBU), finds that the proposed operating model is not as safe as current practices and does not address good practice in the industry for intercity operations.

“I’ve written to the Premier warning her that the current operating system for these new trains is unsafe because it doesn’t allow train guards to properly monitor people in the moments before the train departs. The design of this train risks commuters falling through the gaps between the train and platform, resulting in injury or death.” A Transport for NSW spokesperson said that the CCTV technology would enable safe operations. “The CCTV technology will provide the driver and the customer service guard with a clear view of the entire platform in all conditions and platform configurations."
  viaprojects Chief Train Controller

Seems like a 2021 start date looks more realistic with issues like this still to resolve?

"Yappo"


no issues - just re posted from slow news day on channel nine news ..
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

Seems like a 2021 start date looks more realistic with issues like this still to resolve?

Report raises concern with NIF operating model, 26/11/20
An independent report has found fault with the operating model for the New Intercity Fleet (NIF). The report, commissioned by the Rail, Tram and Bus Union, (RTBU), finds that the proposed operating model is not as safe as current practices and does not address good practice in the industry for intercity operations.

“I’ve written to the Premier warning her that the current operating system for these new trains is unsafe because it doesn’t allow train guards to properly monitor people in the moments before the train departs. The design of this train risks commuters falling through the gaps between the train and platform, resulting in injury or death.” A Transport for NSW spokesperson said that the CCTV technology would enable safe operations. “The CCTV technology will provide the driver and the customer service guard with a clear view of the entire platform in all conditions and platform configurations."
"Yappo"


When the report is commissioned by the Union that has finally realised that they are going to suffer significant losses in membership. one must question just how independent it is?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Seems like a 2021 start date looks more realistic with issues like this still to resolve?

Report raises concern with NIF operating model, 26/11/20
An independent report has found fault with the operating model for the New Intercity Fleet (NIF). The report, commissioned by the Rail, Tram and Bus Union, (RTBU), finds that the proposed operating model is not as safe as current practices and does not address good practice in the industry for intercity operations.

“I’ve written to the Premier warning her that the current operating system for these new trains is unsafe because it doesn’t allow train guards to properly monitor people in the moments before the train departs. The design of this train risks commuters falling through the gaps between the train and platform, resulting in injury or death.” A Transport for NSW spokesperson said that the CCTV technology would enable safe operations. “The CCTV technology will provide the driver and the customer service guard with a clear view of the entire platform in all conditions and platform configurations."
"Yappo"


When the report is commissioned by the Union that has finally realised that they are going to suffer significant losses in membership. one must question just how independent it is?
"theanimal"


The guards haven't been able to see all doors on numerous platforms around Sydney for years. the one time I have seen someone fall between the train and station (Waitara 1985), the guard was completely out of view because the station building stopped the guard moving far enough away from the train to see the whole train and even then by the time he got back to the train to press the bell the situation had changed and it was the driver who heard the yells as it happened at car 1 door 1. CCTV (I assume the new trains have) above all the doors is I would have thought far more effective.

Summary, agree with the union's concern for people falling between the train and station, disagree with their solution.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The guards haven't been able to see all doors on numerous platforms around Sydney for years. the one time I have seen someone fall between the train and station (Waitara 1985), the guard was completely out of view because the station building stopped the guard moving far enough away from the train to see the whole train and even then by the time he got back to the train to press the bell the situation had changed and it was the driver who heard the yells as it happened at car 1 door 1. CCTV (I assume the new trains have) above all the doors is I would have thought far more effective.

Summary, agree with the union's concern for people falling between the train and station, disagree with their solution.
RTT_Rules

On the modern trains they have the screen at the door so they can use eyesight and the cctv. This has been removed from the NIF's and this is what they are unhappy about. I believe that the guard doors also close when the doors are being shut and the guard can't bell the driver unless the guard door is shut as well.

Another thing that has come up is that the NIF might not be 3,034m wide as while they have made it to Lithgow the Oscars can only get to Mt Victoria. I'm expecting them to be closer to 3 metres exactly if this is the case.
  a6et Minister for Railways

There are a number of curved platforms on the CC line both island and side platforms, most have a Station staff on during peak hours, but many only have them when staff available, and most stations are now unmanned.

Locations such as Woy Woy on the down in the day and peak hours has one SA to flag trains in the middle but for the down trains often have to walk a fair degree to get a visual for the whole 8 cars, if the new trains are longer its going to be worse especially when no SA on duty.  Others with problems are Narara, Ourimbah, Morriset, Fassifern, Cardiff each varies depending on whether SA's are there or not.

Coming home from Sydney yesterday, and bare in mind the trains are generally all 8 cars now, Morriset on the up had no SA and the guard had to walk 3 car lengths to see if any passengers were there and then walk back to his compt, and close doors and bell away.  When he got back he only had vision of the rear 4 cars. Thankfully Fassi had the SA there for that platform.
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
I believe that the guard doors also close when the doors are being shut and the guard can't bell the driver unless the guard door is shut as well.
simstrain


What guard and what bell? There will be no bell, there's no guards panel.


Another thing that has come up is that the NIF might not be 3,034m wide as while they have made it to Lithgow the Oscars can only get to Mt Victoria. I'm expecting them to be closer to 3 metres exactly if this is the case.
simstrain


Correct, the NIF are marginally shorter width. They have their own classification and all.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
There are a number of curved platforms on the CC line both island and side platforms, most have a Station staff on during peak hours, but many only have them when staff available, and most stations are now unmanned.

Locations such as Woy Woy on the down in the day and peak hours has one SA to flag trains in the middle but for the down trains often have to walk a fair degree to get a visual for the whole 8 cars, if the new trains are longer its going to be worse especially when no SA on duty.  Others with problems are Narara, Ourimbah, Morriset, Fassifern, Cardiff each varies depending on whether SA's are there or not.

Coming home from Sydney yesterday, and bare in mind the trains are generally all 8 cars now, Morriset on the up had no SA and the guard had to walk 3 car lengths to see if any passengers were there and then walk back to his compt, and close doors and bell away.  When he got back he only had vision of the rear 4 cars. Thankfully Fassi had the SA there for that platform.
"a6et"



Informative and clearly showing how outdated the current practice is and indeed in some parts fool hardy when the guard must check but everyone knows once he/she moves back to the train the situation could change. The move to CCTV will certainly increase the level of safety and bring a reality check to the table.  Hell Melbourne used external CCTV for DOO operations at some stages where a mirror was not suited 20+ years ago.

Note, the CC line was previously operated with 10 car V and U sets to Gosford. and if I recall 10 car U sets to Wyong.
  a6et Minister for Railways

When the 10 car sets were introduced, the guards were still in the middle, sort of and usually in the 6 car middle drivers compartment.

Woy was fitted with a mid point mirror set up for the down trains, also there was an SWSA on the platform to watch the arrival and departure, he gave the ROW for the guard.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I believe that the guard doors also close when the doors are being shut and the guard can't bell the driver unless the guard door is shut as well.


What guard and what bell? There will be no bell, there's no guards panel.
s3_gunzel
That is what I meant. What has traditionally been there for a guard is no longer there.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
When the 10 car sets were introduced, the guards were still in the middle, sort of and usually in the 6 car middle drivers compartment.

Woy was fitted with a mid point mirror set up for the down trains, also there was an SWSA on the platform to watch the arrival and departure, he gave the ROW for the guard.
"a6et"


When I was commuting in the 80's on 10 car U and V sets the guard was at the end.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I believe that the guard doors also close when the doors are being shut and the guard can't bell the driver unless the guard door is shut as well.


What guard and what bell? There will be no bell, there's no guards panel.
s3_gunzel
That is what I meant. What has traditionally been there for a guard is no longer there.
"simstrain"


The train was designed without a guard using the latest technology which is commonly used in Australia and many other countries, ie proven, so rather than try and force on 1980's practices they should be looking at how to operate in the 2020's, in the mean time the govt is now more focused on the pathway to elimination of the guard.
  Transtopic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney
The train was designed without a guard using the latest technology which is commonly used in Australia and many other countries, ie proven, so rather than try and force on 1980's practices they should be looking at how to operate in the 2020's, in the mean time the govt is now more focused on the pathway to elimination of the guard.
RTT_Rules
And not before time!  As you say, it's common practice to operate safely without guards in other Australian jurisdictions and overseas, so it's not unprecedented.  Successive NSW Governments have been reluctant to eliminate guards and switch to driver only operation for fear of creating industrial disruption with the unions.  The Waratahs were also designed for eventual DOO as well as conversion to Automatic Train Control, albeit with a driver/observer to monitor control and take over in emergencies.  With the new trains being introduced, it's now time for the government to follow through on this.  It would have been preferable if this issue had been sorted out earlier, rather than leaving it until the last minute.

If the RTBU was smart, it would be acting in its members best interests by accepting the inevitable operational improvements and negotiate a settlement with the government to retrain guards as drivers/observers or a generous redundancy package for those who choose to leave.  The so-called safety issues are a complete furphy and have been brought on by themselves in requiring compromises to be made so that they can keep their positions, when they're not really needed.
  a6et Minister for Railways

When the 10 car sets were introduced, the guards were still in the middle, sort of and usually in the 6 car middle drivers compartment.

Woy was fitted with a mid point mirror set up for the down trains, also there was an SWSA on the platform to watch the arrival and departure, he gave the ROW for the guard.
"a6et"


When I was commuting in the 80's on 10 car U and V sets the guard was at the end.
"RTT_Rules"


I saw both, and when on the down at Woy Woy, the guard was in the middle. also as I said there was a need for SWSA to be on the platform for the ROW to the guard.

How long did the 10 car sets really go for? considering the cost of the WW station platform on both ends, was it value for money but, I would think the new sets will show up the value has finally been added.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
When the 10 car sets were introduced, the guards were still in the middle, sort of and usually in the 6 car middle drivers compartment.

Woy was fitted with a mid point mirror set up for the down trains, also there was an SWSA on the platform to watch the arrival and departure, he gave the ROW for the guard.
"a6et"


When I was commuting in the 80's on 10 car U and V sets the guard was at the end.
"RTT_Rules"


I saw both, and when on the down at Woy Woy, the guard was in the middle. also as I said there was a need for SWSA to be on the platform for the ROW to the guard.

How long did the 10 car sets really go for? considering the cost of the WW station platform on both ends, was it value for money but, I would think the new sets will show up the value has finally been added.
"a6et"


I commuted 1982 to 1989 and both U and V sets were 10 cars, I understand it was stopped a few years later. I'm not sure why but I think it was madness to reduce your productivity per train movement by 20% considering many 10 car trains were packed.

Guards to be at the back if stopping at Koolingwong, Tascot and Point Claire which to be fair I don't think many 10 car DD's did stop at, but 10 car U sets certainly did as I was on the 10 car ~3:35pm ex Hornsby every school day for 4 years. If the guard was standing at 4/6 car on a U set heading north they wouldn't even be able to see Tascot station and heading south Point Claire wouldn't be much better and I think Koolingwong same.  Poor old Wondabyne the guard would have be in the last car.

The short platform stations should have been all standardised to min 4 car or perhaps 6 car DD  and major stations 10 car DD some time ago.
  a6et Minister for Railways

When the 10 car sets were introduced, the guards were still in the middle, sort of and usually in the 6 car middle drivers compartment.

Woy was fitted with a mid point mirror set up for the down trains, also there was an SWSA on the platform to watch the arrival and departure, he gave the ROW for the guard.
"a6et"


When I was commuting in the 80's on 10 car U and V sets the guard was at the end.
"RTT_Rules"


I saw both, and when on the down at Woy Woy, the guard was in the middle. also as I said there was a need for SWSA to be on the platform for the ROW to the guard.

How long did the 10 car sets really go for? considering the cost of the WW station platform on both ends, was it value for money but, I would think the new sets will show up the value has finally been added.
"a6et"


I commuted 1982 to 1989 and both U and V sets were 10 cars, I understand it was stopped a few years later. I'm not sure why but I think it was madness to reduce your productivity per train movement by 20% considering many 10 car trains were packed.

Guards to be at the back if stopping at Koolingwong, Tascot and Point Claire which to be fair I don't think many 10 car DD's did stop at, but 10 car U sets certainly did as I was on the 10 car ~3:35pm ex Hornsby every school day for 4 years. If the guard was standing at 4/6 car on a U set heading north they wouldn't even be able to see Tascot station and heading south Point Claire wouldn't be much better and I think Koolingwong same.  Poor old Wondabyne the guard would have be in the last car.

The short platform stations should have been all standardised to min 4 car or perhaps 6 car DD  and major stations 10 car DD some time ago.
"RTT_Rules"



I had just moved to WCK in early 82 just as the beginning of the drought was evident around, end of that year the AFULE had region and depot votes for branch secretary, and in the case of WCK they had what was called #4 regional councilor, which I stood for both Branch secretary and councillor, I was elected to both positions, surrounding depots as such West Tamworth, & Gunnedah came under the WCK umbrella, while the other deports had their own secretaries and president. As the regional councilor I had to represent each of the depots without bias towards one or the others, it was a balancing act that in many meetings of the councilors issues came up that I had to present and give equal voting to each of the depots in that area.

We had tough debates and decisions usually over a 3 day period, business generally finished at the end of each days meetings, but discussions took place between us all that presented cases for all depots and locations that we had to vote on, it often though included issues that did not directly affected enginemen as such, & that included the 10 car IU trains, along with the various problems with them on short platforms, this was very much an issue that the ARU was more involved with than we were.  I knew the Short North line and stations from my days at Enfield from 64-76 with a 2 year break as I was a fireman at WCK for 17 odd months before going back to Enfield in January 71.

When the extended platforms and 10 car platform stops, I can recollect that our decisions were basically moved and adopted practice that the use of 10 cars should only be on runs that had platform capacity as far as the length of the trains to fully stop at the appropriate board showing the stopping point at 4, 6, 8 & the 10 car boards.  The arguments put up by the ARU at the time in seeking our support was that many platforms were unsuited to the 10 car sets, especially those with curved coping faces, and the stops at  short platforms where the guard had restricted views.

As an aside, when many of those trains were still steam/diesel hauled with no communication between the driver and guard on stops with limited vision, which the longer trains had, at platforms with no SWSA or ASM, and the driver and guard could not see each other, the method of ROW was that the fireman had to watch to the rear and be able to see the guard who would have to check the platform on drivers side, when ok to go he walked across the compartment and gave ROW to Fireman, who acknowledged with short whistle blast.

Seemed under those arrangements that things tended to work quite ok, how long those 10 cars were in service I can only really remember some of the things told at Meetings and men who transferred to Eveleigh telling how things worked.  I would say that 8 car DD IU's would or should have resolved the 10 car problem. Although I see a heck of a lot of issues when I travel by trains to Sydney from the Hunter.

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