XPT replacement thread 2019

 
  c3526blue Deputy Commissioner

Location: in the cuckoos nest

The Vinelander wrote (in part)

V/Line's slowest journey time, Melbourne to Swan Hill with a bus connection at Bendigo - 5' 5"

NSWGR's only journey time, Sydney to Port Macquarie with bus connection at Wauchope - 7' 29"

I rest my case.

On any criteria, Victoria is STREETS ahead of NSW in regional SERVICE provision.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Wow, who needs a VFT?

Melbourne to Swan Hill in 5min 45sec, and Sydney to Pt Macquarie in 7min 29sec.  Buses must be dragsters too!

I have seen this confusing misuse of the correct abbreviations most commonly used in railway circles (pun intended).

For all to note there is a correct nomenclature for minutes and seconds, has been for a very, very long time and always should be.  Three sources to demonstrate are -
What are the symbols for hours, minutes, and seconds? - Quora
Seconds, Minutes, and Hours: Abbreviations & Conversions (yourdictionary.com)
Prime (symbol) - Wikipedia

As noted in these articles the single prime and double prime should only be used for durations up to 60 minutes.  Using these abbreviations for times of one hour or more can lead to ambiguity, as seen above.  Example - 45min 30sec can be written 45' 30".  The use of the degree symbol (°) for hours can also be misleading or confusing.  

Better shorthand can be used, as for the examples above 05:45:00, and 07:29:00, or 5h 45m, 7h 29m, or as I have used in the first line.  No confusion at all.

As they say on TV "Simples".

Happy abbreviating,

John

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  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE


I'm talking service FREQUENCY Shane.

Regional service frequency over the distance covered...Victoria Vs NSW.

Your average punter rolls up at Southern Cross station and wants to travel to our least populated regional city, Swan Hill...population a shade under 10,000.

https://www.google.com/search?q=swan+hill+population&oq=swan+Hill+pop&aqs=chrome.0.0j69i57j0j46i175i199j0i22i30l3j0i22i30i457j0i390l2.6320j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

At around 350Km from Melbourne, your average punter wants to travel to Swan Hill TODAY, FRIDAY.

They don't care if the train is loco-hauled or not, they just want to travel. How many services are there TODAY to Swan Hill you ask.

Let's see:
https://www.vline.com.au/getattachment/f15a7ca1-7acf-40ba-a43f-713716321b6b/Swan-Hill-Melbourne

Well look here, FIVE services are on offer from V/Line TODAY to travel to Swan Hill.

Now to compare, I'm providing a NSWGR timetable for the BUSIEST regional line in NSW, the north coast line to Grafton. So your average punter rolls up to Sydney Central station and wants to travel to say Port Macquarie, population a shade under 48,000, only 5 times the size of Swan Hill, but a similar distance from Sydney as Swan Hill is from Melbourne.

How many SERVICES are there TODAY to Port Macquarie you ask.

Let's see:

Once you scroll through the blurb and get to page 27.

https://transportnsw.info/documents/timetables/94-35-North-Coast-NSW-20200524.pdf

Well look here, THREE services are on offer from NSWGR TODAY to travel to Wauchope. But, Port Macquarie has a sole ONE service a day connecting at Wauchope, see page 27 of the above link.

AND, because apparently Victoria's diesel hauled services are slow, antiquated, last century,...fill in the gaps here about why they are so bad, notwithstanding the fact they are being phased out in Victoria, but I digress. Let's look at the travel times from Melbourne to Swan Hill compared with Sydney to Port Macquarie.

I'll give NSW a fighting chance because Port Macquarie is off the main line therefore a bus connection is required. Imagine a bus connection to a city of 45,000, but again I digress.

V/Line's slowest journey time, Melbourne to Swan Hill with a bus connection at Bendigo - 5' 5"

NSWGR's only journey time, Sydney to Port Macquarie with bus connection at Wauchope - 7' 29"

I rest my case.

On any criteria, Victoria is STREETS ahead of NSW in regional SERVICE provision.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Mike,
First, I congratulate you on making a post without using your failed politics.

2nd, Time is referenced as X h : YY min, not 5 feet 5 inches.

3rd, now time for you to actually do some thinking, not ranting. The North coast line gets 3 rail services a day as far as Grafton, there are at least 10 buses a day that connect Port Mac to those 3 trains. If there are additional buses headed to Newcastle / Sydney, even better, but no idea and don't really care.

As you said the city is 5 x that of Swan Hill, so more than likely Port Mac far more self sufficient. Also the NSW Nth Coast is far more heavily populated overall and as a large number of retirees likely has the services that Swan Hill can only dream of and if not in your town/city, you certainly don't need to travel 350km across flat un populated country side to the likes of Melbourne to get a basic medical procedure or other service, hence the Vic Govt needs to fund more into a complex PT network to feed those people in regional Vic to Mel. Which as you will know is basic mostly flat terrain and in a radial pattern from a far more centralised central point of Melbourne.

Where as NSW, Sydney while centralised on the coast, has been historically slow to get to because you are basically following a mountain ridge if on the coast or you need to cross. Its much greater distances to the Capital, much larger regional population and more complex terrain forced the state to de-centralise govt and private services such as health a longtime ago. Further north up the NSW coast, you have GC and Brisbane just across the border, thus avoiding a need to head to Sydney.

NSW's much greater distances and more complex terrain also means that while Vic has some intra-state small size aircraft regional air services, mostly Mildura and Albury (which is actually NSW) and a few others I cannot be bothered to look up. Some of NSW regional air services are actually jets.

Once again if we focus on population, distances and terrain we will commonality with Southern Qld. Gympie which is 3h  170km from Brisbane is despite using arguably the best train technology in Australia but still 3h by rail due to terrain despote billions of investment and still billions to go.

Further North Bundaberg which is similar to Port Mac and Swan Hill in distance from their respective capitals gets 2.5 trains a day but still around 4-5h away, again using the most advanced trains in Australia on track that has had billions spent on it, all due to terrain.

EDIT, do I agree with the current level of services, no. I've stated in the past that the whole BS HSR project should be forgotten and invest in the current interstate lines for what isn't a huge sum of money to enable.

Syd- Mel : 5 x day, travel time ~ 7h

Syd - Bris : 3 x day, travel time ~ 8h. (more intermediate services)

Mel - Adel : 1 x day, travel time ~7h

Syd - Can : 5 x day, travel time ~ 3h
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line

Where as NSW, Sydney while centralised on the coast, has been historically slow to get to because you are basically following a mountain ridge if on the coast or you need to cross. Its much greater distances to the Capital, much larger regional population and more complex terrain forced the state to de-centralise govt and private services such as health a longtime ago. Further north up the NSW coast, you have GC and Brisbane just across the border, thus avoiding a need to head to Sydney.

NSW's much greater distances and more complex terrain also means that while Vic has some intra-state small size aircraft regional air services, mostly Mildura and Albury (which is actually NSW) and a few others I cannot be bothered to look up. Some of NSW regional air services are actually jets.
RTT_Rules

Which goes back to why I posted in here at all. According to Simstrain, these new XPT replacements will apparently, due to their power to weight ratio's, straighten out NSW many curves, all whilst ignoring the laws of physics and ascend mountains without any effort at all because of the apparently... powerfully superior, whisper smooth diesel technology these new trains are meant to incorporate.

Jets Exclamation
Nothing to do with NSWGR and only if you can afford them.

Funny thing is aeroplanes were tried at Swan Hill and the faded signage is still in-situ at the Swan Hill aerodrome and can be seen from the train...but no more. V/Line service was apparently too frequent, economical...or both and killed the airline service from Swan Hill to Melbourne.

Mike.
  NSWRcars Assistant Commissioner

What goes on in other states is irrelevant. NSW's country train fleet is getting long in the tooth, and regardless of what flavour government was in power in NSW, they would have faced the same options, i.e. whether to continue with regional train services, or not. The current government has committed to, and funded, replacing old trains with new, and to maintaining them for another 15 years. Despite the spin, Regional Rail Project was never about improving, expanding, or speeding up services - it is a renewal program, to provide essentially the same service for the foreseeable future. Of course there will be some new features in the trains but they won't be any faster, and the Regional Rail FAQ says as much.
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
To add to NSWRcars point - the replacement is to provide an equal (except sleeper) service with lower operational overhead.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

Where as NSW, Sydney while centralised on the coast, has been historically slow to get to because you are basically following a mountain ridge if on the coast or you need to cross. Its much greater distances to the Capital, much larger regional population and more complex terrain forced the state to de-centralise govt and private services such as health a longtime ago. Further north up the NSW coast, you have GC and Brisbane just across the border, thus avoiding a need to head to Sydney.

NSW's much greater distances and more complex terrain also means that while Vic has some intra-state small size aircraft regional air services, mostly Mildura and Albury (which is actually NSW) and a few others I cannot be bothered to look up. Some of NSW regional air services are actually jets.
Which goes back to why I posted in here at all. According to Simstrain, these new XPT replacements will apparently, due to their power to weight ratio's, straighten out NSW many curves, all whilst ignoring the laws of physics and ascend mountains without any effort at all because of the apparently... powerfully superior, whisper smooth diesel technology these new trains are meant to incorporate.

Jets Exclamation
Nothing to do with NSWGR and only if you can afford them.

Funny thing is aeroplanes were tried at Swan Hill and the faded signage is still in-situ at the Swan Hill aerodrome and can be seen from the train...but no more. V/Line service was apparently too frequent, economical...or both and killed the airline service from Swan Hill to Melbourne.

Mike.
The Vinelander
I'm not sure what the NSW govt has promised, nor particularly care. However from what I understand the power to weight ratio is higher on the new trains, which for the XPL's would not be hard and as such I would expect marginally improves sectional times on curvaceous and hilly track. Similar was observed in Qld with replacement of Loco hauled with ICE, then ICE with RTT. You can see that the CTT despite lessor stops south of Rocky, has a longer travel time due to its reduced performance compared to the RTT.

Swan Hill would not be viable for flights of any description due to small population and only marginal for flights full stop due to its proximity to Melbourne. 350km is normally not the most economic distance for flying and the country is riddled with failed attempts to do so over similar and sometime more distance to small population centres and really nothing to do with V/line although this wouldn't help. A few examples of ones that I'm aware of.

Basically any intrastate air travel in Tas not involving island to island.

Bris - Bundy has been a mixed bag over the years

A few other intrastate Qld services not subisidised by the govt

Perth to Hopetoun

etc

As for affordability, remember V'line is subsidised to around 25 to 30c in the dollar.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I like the new trains although it would be nice if they were made in Australia. From the video I saw of the mockup the interiors look really nice. The seats comfortable especially those first class seats and the technology to be used is going to make train travel more economical for the NSW government and Tax Payer.

My issue and the points I bring up with vinelander is only with debunking his theory that vline is light years ahead of NSW trainlink. Vline doesn't have anywhere near the same distances to travel vs nsw trainlink and swan hill only has 2 rail services and port has 3 and the train doesn't stop at Port but continues on to Grafton, Casino and Brisbane. We know how much Vinelander likes rail over the coach / bus and so that one extra rail service is magnitudes better then the 3 bus connections he talks about to Swan Hill. Even still a private operator like Greyhound can provide a 2 hour faster service for only $20 extra.

My uncle who lives in Port Macquarie has recently had a slew of operations and he was transferred to Sydney by air to have this done. Other then that these towns are self contained and decentralised from Sydney. Milk, bread and other daily items are made locally. They don't rely on being linked to Sydney as all these towns in Victoria are linked to Melbourne. So again it is a different type of way of living to Victoria.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I like the new trains although it would be nice if they were made in Australia. From the video I saw of the mockup the interiors look really nice. The seats comfortable especially those first class seats and the technology to be used is going to make train travel more economical for the NSW government and Tax Payer.

My issue and the points I bring up with vinelander is only with debunking his theory that vline is light years ahead of NSW trainlink. Vline doesn't have anywhere near the same distances to travel vs nsw trainlink and swan hill only has 2 rail services and port has 3 and the train doesn't stop at Port but continues on to Grafton, Casino and Brisbane. We know how much Vinelander likes rail over the coach / bus and so that one extra rail service is magnitudes better then the 3 bus connections he talks about to Swan Hill. Even still a private operator like Greyhound can provide a 2 hour faster service for only $20 extra.

My uncle who lives in Port Macquarie has recently had a slew of operations and he was transferred to Sydney by air to have this done. Other then that these towns are self contained and decentralised from Sydney. Milk, bread and other daily items are made locally. They don't rely on being linked to Sydney as all these towns in Victoria are linked to Melbourne. So again it is a different type of way of living to Victoria.
simstrain
The two states regional/rural areas are very different for numerous reasons and trying to compare for political point scoring is pointless. Yes Vic has its strengths over NSW as does NSW over Vic.

It such debates are to continue, then it would be better to focus on the suburban areas as these are more apples for apples.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The two states regional/rural areas are very different for numerous reasons and trying to compare for political point scoring is pointless. Yes Vic has its strengths over NSW as does NSW over Vic.

It such debates are to continue, then it would be better to focus on the suburban areas as these are more apples for apples.
RTT_Rules

I agree but Victorian's have always been like this. They like to say they do things better then NSW because it is a mental block. An inferiority complex where they need to have the best this and the biggest that and god forbid if NSW or Sydney has such a thing. This mentality was clearly seen when they stole the grand prix from Adelaide and so it isn't specific to NSW. You can see when they claim things like the sporting or coffee capital of Australia or the world.

These new trains are a game changer for transport in Australia bringing new technology and better utilsing existing assets to improve amenity. Using the overhead was a masterstroke to reduce to amount of fuel needed and to help reduce costs.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The two states regional/rural areas are very different for numerous reasons and trying to compare for political point scoring is pointless. Yes Vic has its strengths over NSW as does NSW over Vic.

It such debates are to continue, then it would be better to focus on the suburban areas as these are more apples for apples.

I agree but Victorian's have always been like this. They like to say they do things better then NSW because it is a mental block. An inferiority complex where they need to have the best this and the biggest that and god forbid if NSW or Sydney has such a thing. This mentality was clearly seen when they stole the grand prix from Adelaide and so it isn't specific to NSW. You can see when they claim things like the sporting or coffee capital of Australia or the world.

These new trains are a game changer for transport in Australia bringing new technology and better utilsing existing assets to improve amenity. Using the overhead was a masterstroke to reduce to amount of fuel needed and to help reduce costs.
simstrain
I wouldn't call it a game changer, they are buying a new train off the shelf, not reinventing the wheel.

Now that NSW will soon have fancy new trains, the next thing that should follow is upgrades to the track. Due to NSW's predominant Nth-Sth operation, you can target just two sections of track, less than 300km in total length to have a significant in improvement in all but two Regional services and 60% of all interurban services.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I wouldn't call it a game changer, they are buying a new train off the shelf, not reinventing the wheel.

Now that NSW will soon have fancy new trains, the next thing that should follow is upgrades to the track. Due to NSW's predominant Nth-Sth operation, you can target just two sections of track, less than 300km in total length to have a significant in improvement in all but two Regional services and 60% of all interurban services.
RTT_Rules

They will be in terms of cost efficiency. These new trains are going to be using over 30% less fuel meaning less subsidies will be needed. We all know that we need new track alignments but these will provide a small travel time reduction in the meantime. They can also be upgraded to use less or no fuel if there are more battery packs installed in them. A future upgrade could allow a hunter line or bomaderry version to run mostly on battery power reducing fuel cost even further.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I wouldn't call it a game changer, they are buying a new train off the shelf, not reinventing the wheel.

Now that NSW will soon have fancy new trains, the next thing that should follow is upgrades to the track. Due to NSW's predominant Nth-Sth operation, you can target just two sections of track, less than 300km in total length to have a significant in improvement in all but two Regional services and 60% of all interurban services.

They will be in terms of cost efficiency. These new trains are going to be using over 30% less fuel meaning less subsidies will be needed. We all know that we need new track alignments but these will provide a small travel time reduction in the meantime. They can also be upgraded to use less or no fuel if there are more battery packs installed in them. A future upgrade could allow a hunter line or bomaderry version to run mostly on battery power reducing fuel cost even further.
simstrain
Yeah well the less fuel is as a result of newer engines. No surprises there.

Under the wire its energy source just changes, still required but its a good idea, its a pity the Qld govt didn't enforce the same, they looked at it but didn't proceed. Likewise the QR 2800 class should have been hybrid as well.

Batteries would need to be very large to get the distance. For the trains overnighting in a yard, no issue on the recharge, but no good for those terminating and returning 1h later. A Tesla 100kW battery is around 630 kg and requires 0.4m3 of space (Google), so think about that for a trip of even 280km out from the wire to Canberra.  

However high cycle Batteries (Prius style, not Tesla) would be ideal for catching the braking energy and then reinjecting as needed. This is where the common bus along the train approach can really work wonders reducing fuel. Train is basically an EMU with Prius style battery. The train then has a set of diesel gensets that operate on demand, thus operate in their most efficient rpm range or even fixed rpm feeding into the battery with acceleration controlled by battery discharge. Engines only operate as needed, but as routes are well known and limited the sequence when the engines come on and off can be controlled to align with expected terrain for a period of time to limit cycling. Overall you need less diesel engines per train.

Think about the XPT run to Brisbane, 14.5h 3000kW of power in both locos, but what is the average output for the entire trip? Lets say its 1000kW, plus you will have regen from braking, lets say that saves 20% more, so average output is now 800 kW. So two 500 kW gensets for a total of 1000kW. One basically runs continuously at fixed RPM, most efficient mode of operating just feeding into the battery after leaving Broadmeadow and the 2nd is activated for short periods when going uphill, might run for an hour here or there. Should one engine fail, the train can still return home, just at a slower pace. Save alot in weight and fuel, but yes you need to carry a complex battery and its cooling system.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Not really an issue on the battery since the 2 and 5 cars are actually just trailer carriages with no engine / power unit. There is a single 22 litre power unit on carriages 1,3,4 and 6 that produces 900hp. These feed the batteries and there is nothing stopping the train having an extra power pack or 2 in the trailer carriages to get the distance required to go shortish distances like to bombaderry on battery power.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Not really an issue on the battery since the 2 and 5 cars are actually just trailer carriages with no engine / power unit. There is a single 22 litre power unit on carriages 1,3,4 and 6 that produces 900hp. These feed the batteries and there is nothing stopping the train having an extra power pack or 2 in the trailer carriages to get the distance required to go shortish distances like to bombaderry on battery power.
simstrain
Don't know much about these new ones and cannot find a fact sheet with details
New Trains - 670 kW x 4/6 = 450 kW / car seems low.

Current trains

XPL - 383 kW Prime Mover + 182 kW Aux, 57 tonnes = 6.7kW / t, basically pretty gutless
With an average fuel consumption of 1L/car/km, so assume a fuel tank of at least 700L / car

WA Prospector - 386 x 2 = 772 kW for both prime mover and aux, so say around 600 kW traction / car, @ 65 t = 9.2 kW /car, nearly 50% more power for much greater acceleration. I think if this was designed now, the Aux load would come from a battery charged by the prime mover when not under full throttle enabling a smaller pair of prime movers.

So back to what I was saying before. Each car would retain one prime mover gen set of around 300 kW feeding a large battery that is also connected to a common bus that runs the train. For a 2 car set one engine would run permanently, the 2nd would cycle on/off for durations of around 30-60min to boost the battery and if required deal with long up hill grades.

For 3 car sets you would have likely 2 engines running permanently.


Bombaderry to Kiama and return is just under 80km which with 80min return would need around 150 - 175 kW per car including running the aux. This would need 3 x Tesla style 100 kW batteries (300 kW because of the high current draw on acceleration and prevent full and rapid discharge).

At both terminus stations you would need say OH for charging, not an issue at Kiama, so just a small section at Bombaderry including the over night storage yard, 250m would cover both in one stretch.

The problem is recharge time in peak isn't long enough to get much charge so you need a much bigger battery, probably 600 kW or more. 600 kW battery is around 4t, probably not a big deal after removing the prime mover and most of the fuel tank. I would keep at least one Aux diesel with 3-4h of fuel for emergency use for safety reasons and yes this could even be used to move the train at around 10 - 20 km/h if needed. I'd also be surprised if the trains a standing room capacity so extra weight of battery would be not require suspension upgrades. The 1500 VDC is a perfect supply for battery charging, no heavy transformers.

Would make an interesting project for the govt to test the water using the displaced XPL's, however it won't be cheap to modify these hydraulic drive cars to electric traction and then modify the roof for a pano. This is where the Adelaide 3000/31000 class might be cheaper to modify, if not too wide, but probably more politically friendly to use the XPL/END fleet.

I'm sure the green tinge voters down that way would support. Would also solve the longterm issues of sparking a very uneconomic route to spark at a cost of $1-2m/km + specialised trains plus issues of dealing with the tunnels.
  Alphatron Station Staff

Location: Wellington
“Would make an interesting project for the govt to test the water using the displaced XPL's, however it won't be cheap to modify these hydraulic drive cars to electric traction and then modify the roof for a pano. This is where the Adelaide [color=#0066cc][size=2][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI, "Segoe UI", Segoe, "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]3000/31000[/font][/size][/color] class might be cheaper to modify, if not too wide, but probably more politically friendly to use the XPL/END fleet. “
Vivarail in the UK, which is supplying a range of diesel and battery powered regional trains converted from former London Underground EMUs, is developing plans for converting diesel hydraulic powered DMUs into battery powered vehicles - there are apparently over 3000 such DMUs operating in the UK. Adrian Shooter, MD of Vivarail talks about this proposal at about 8 minutes in this recent Modern Railways video : https://www.keymodernrailways.com/article/vivarail-zero-emission-trains-video
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
“Would make an interesting project for the govt to test the water using the displaced XPL's, however it won't be cheap to modify these hydraulic drive cars to electric traction and then modify the roof for a pano. This is where the Adelaide [color=#0066cc][size=2][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI, ]3000/31000[/font][/size][/color] class might be cheaper to modify, if not too wide, but probably more politically friendly to use the XPL/END fleet. “
Vivarail in the UK, which is supplying a range of diesel and battery powered regional trains converted from former London Underground EMUs, is developing plans for converting diesel hydraulic powered DMUs into battery powered vehicles - there are apparently over 3000 such DMUs operating in the UK. Adrian Shooter, MD of Vivarail talks about this proposal at about 8 minutes in this recent Modern Railways video : https://www.keymodernrailways.com/article/vivarail-zero-emission-trains-video
Alphatron
Thanks

Its one of these projects that I think you present to the govt as a complete package. Give them the trains and franchise the service under say a 10 + 5 year contract which includes running both the trains and stations on 100% RE/RE off-set. .
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

RTT the new unit is to be powered by the mtu hybrid powerpack 1600 and will either be the 660kw or the 700kw version. These trains aren't pushing a hydraulic transmission and will have a battery pack and regenerattive braking. The electric motors will make these trains so much more efficient then the hydraulic transmission and it will not need a generator for mains as the 22 litre donk will provide this. The pdf below gives you more detail of the new power unit.

https://www.mtu-solutions.com/content/dam/mtu/products/rail/3234421_MTU_spec_Rail_PowerPack1600.pdf/_jcr_content/renditions/original./3234421_MTU_spec_Rail_PowerPack1600.pdf

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