Murray Basin standardisation

 
  Carnot Minister for Railways

I don't think VLine have approved recycled plastic sleepers yet. They have a few under test.

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  Carnot Minister for Railways

I don't think VLine have approved recycled plastic sleepers yet. They have a few under test.
  emmastreet Chief Train Controller

Location: Goulburn Valley
It's a few years ago now but some treated pine sleepers were put in on the Tocumwal line as a trial. Just north of Congupna I think. I don't know what the results were or if they are still there.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

What if any of the price difference between plastic and concrete sleepers and why are more not being used on the V/line network ?

Seems the right thing to do install recycled plastic sleepers.

Are there operational issues in their use ?
freightgate
Yes the trial installations indicate their hardness has a tendency for them not to dig into the ballast underneath, rather move about a bit under load. Also concrete are a proven product with 50 year lif, with recycled plastic after prolonged exposure to sunlight how will they stand up ? onlt time will tell . UYes something to be trialled by VLP in due course but not for wholesale adoption as yet .   MTM have trial stretch betweem Richmond and Burnley.
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

What if any of the price difference between plastic and concrete sleepers and why are more not being used on the V/line network ?

Seems the right thing to do install recycled plastic sleepers.

Are there operational issues in their use ?
Yes the trial installations indicate their hardness has a tendency for them not to dig into the ballast underneath, rather move about a bit under load. Also concrete are a proven product with 50 year lif, with recycled plastic after prolonged exposure to sunlight how will they stand up ? onlt time will tell . UYes something to be trialled by VLP in due course but not for wholesale adoption as yet .   MTM have trial stretch betweem Richmond and Burnley.
kuldalai
The hardness factor was something I had not considered. It might explain why they are used these types of sleepers on bridge decks (where they can be secured to the bridge so no lateral movement) and station track pits (eg. Richmond). Otherwise they are also being used for stabling yards. So in all these cases the loading pressure from a slow moving or stationary train is not going to be a problem.

On mainline track (with trains at speed) the issue of lateral movement can become a problem. I suggest that the compound used for the sleeper may need to be tweaked so that is loses some of its hardness and can dig into the ballast. Otherwise timber is still going to be an option where concrete is not used.
  emmastreet Chief Train Controller

Location: Goulburn Valley
It's a few years ago now but some treated pine sleepers were put in on the Tocumwal line as a trial. Just north of Congupna I think. I don't know what the results were or if they are still there.
emmastreet
Yes Lockspike I  see it's funny now that I've written it. Probably should have said treated timber and left it at that.
  Lockspike Chief Commissioner

Yes the trial installations indicate their hardness has a tendency for them not to dig into the ballast underneath, rather move about a bit under load. Also concrete are a proven product with 50 year lif, with recycled plastic after prolonged exposure to sunlight how will they stand up ? onlt time will tell . UYes something to be trialled by VLP in due course but not for wholesale adoption as yet .   MTM have trial stretch betweem Richmond and Burnley.
The hardness factor was something I had not considered. It might explain why they are used these types of sleepers on bridge decks (where they can be secured to the bridge so no lateral movement) and station track pits (eg. Richmond). Otherwise they are also being used for stabling yards. So in all these cases the loading pressure from a slow moving or stationary train is not going to be a problem.

On mainline track (with trains at speed) the issue of lateral movement can become a problem. I suggest that the compound used for the sleeper may need to be tweaked so that is loses some of its hardness and can dig into the ballast. Otherwise timber is still going to be an option where concrete is not used.
Duncs
Lateral movement is a significant issue. While it is exacerbated with weight and speed, even unused track can go out of line.
Maybe a pattern could be designed into the underside of the compound sleeper; a concave indented pattern designed to aggressively hang onto the ballast.
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

Yes the trial installations indicate their hardness has a tendency for them not to dig into the ballast underneath, rather move about a bit under load. Also concrete are a proven product with 50 year lif, with recycled plastic after prolonged exposure to sunlight how will they stand up ? onlt time will tell . UYes something to be trialled by VLP in due course but not for wholesale adoption as yet .   MTM have trial stretch betweem Richmond and Burnley.
The hardness factor was something I had not considered. It might explain why they are used these types of sleepers on bridge decks (where they can be secured to the bridge so no lateral movement) and station track pits (eg. Richmond). Otherwise they are also being used for stabling yards. So in all these cases the loading pressure from a slow moving or stationary train is not going to be a problem.

On mainline track (with trains at speed) the issue of lateral movement can become a problem. I suggest that the compound used for the sleeper may need to be tweaked so that is loses some of its hardness and can dig into the ballast. Otherwise timber is still going to be an option where concrete is not used.
Lateral movement is a significant issue. While it is exacerbated with weight and speed, even unused track can go out of line.
Maybe a pattern could be designed into the underside of the compound sleeper; a concave indented pattern designed to aggressively hang onto the ballast.
Lockspike
That is a very clever idea. Worth further investigation.
  Lockspike Chief Commissioner

It's a few years ago now but some treated pine sleepers were put in on the Tocumwal line as a trial. Just north of Congupna I think. I don't know what the results were or if they are still there.
Yes Lockspike I  see it's funny now that I've written it. Probably should have said treated timber and left it at that.
emmastreet
Hi Emma St,
Funny(?), bordering on the absurd I think.
When we had jurisdiction based railway systems, those railway systems put quite a bit of effort into research and development, in all aspects of railway engineering.
There have been many, many trials of sleepers and/or fastenings, and if there have been trials of treated pine in the past, they have not made the grade.

Particularly since the 70s, inability of the sleeper to retain the fastenings has been the primary cause of sleeper failure, not timber decay. No amount of timber treatment can address that. Sleeper life has been reduced by about 50% compared to what the 'old hands' knew. The advent of resilient fastenings slowed the demise of timber as the 'go to' sleeper material, but did not allay it.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
Yes the trial installations indicate their hardness has a tendency for them not to dig into the ballast underneath, rather move about a bit under load. Also concrete are a proven product with 50 year lif, with recycled plastic after prolonged exposure to sunlight how will they stand up ? onlt time will tell . UYes something to be trialled by VLP in due course but not for wholesale adoption as yet .   MTM have trial stretch betweem Richmond and Burnley.
The hardness factor was something I had not considered. It might explain why they are used these types of sleepers on bridge decks (where they can be secured to the bridge so no lateral movement) and station track pits (eg. Richmond). Otherwise they are also being used for stabling yards. So in all these cases the loading pressure from a slow moving or stationary train is not going to be a problem.

On mainline track (with trains at speed) the issue of lateral movement can become a problem. I suggest that the compound used for the sleeper may need to be tweaked so that is loses some of its hardness and can dig into the ballast. Otherwise timber is still going to be an option where concrete is not used.
Lateral movement is a significant issue. While it is exacerbated with weight and speed, even unused track can go out of line.
Maybe a pattern could be designed into the underside of the compound sleeper; a concave indented pattern designed to aggressively hang onto the ballast.
Lockspike
I wonder if a sawtooth underside might be the aggressive connection required?

Though the steel ones in NSW are just convex and the ballast is tamped up underneath them so that is perhaps all that is needed.

Or just steel sleepers...
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

Lets no go to steel sleepers for main lines. Been there before..
  Inland_Sailor Junior Train Controller

Yes the trial installations indicate their hardness has a tendency for them not to dig into the ballast underneath, rather move about a bit under load. Also concrete are a proven product with 50 year lif, with recycled plastic after prolonged exposure to sunlight how will they stand up ? onlt time will tell . UYes something to be trialled by VLP in due course but not for wholesale adoption as yet .   MTM have trial stretch betweem Richmond and Burnley.
The hardness factor was something I had not considered. It might explain why they are used these types of sleepers on bridge decks (where they can be secured to the bridge so no lateral movement) and station track pits (eg. Richmond). Otherwise they are also being used for stabling yards. So in all these cases the loading pressure from a slow moving or stationary train is not going to be a problem.

On mainline track (with trains at speed) the issue of lateral movement can become a problem. I suggest that the compound used for the sleeper may need to be tweaked so that is loses some of its hardness and can dig into the ballast. Otherwise timber is still going to be an option where concrete is not used.
Lateral movement is a significant issue. While it is exacerbated with weight and speed, even unused track can go out of line.
Maybe a pattern could be designed into the underside of the compound sleeper; a concave indented pattern designed to aggressively hang onto the ballast.
Lockspike
It would be a real win/win if a successful design for recycled plastic sleepers could be found. Is there any research into or the use of them anywhere else in Australia? Overseas? If not, the IP could be a real income earner for whoever develops them successfully to replace all the other sleeper options!
  skitz Chief Commissioner

Yes the trial installations indicate their hardness has a tendency for them not to dig into the ballast underneath, rather move about a bit under load. Also concrete are a proven product with 50 year lif, with recycled plastic after prolonged exposure to sunlight how will they stand up ? onlt time will tell . UYes something to be trialled by VLP in due course but not for wholesale adoption as yet .   MTM have trial stretch betweem Richmond and Burnley.
The hardness factor was something I had not considered. It might explain why they are used these types of sleepers on bridge decks (where they can be secured to the bridge so no lateral movement) and station track pits (eg. Richmond). Otherwise they are also being used for stabling yards. So in all these cases the loading pressure from a slow moving or stationary train is not going to be a problem.

On mainline track (with trains at speed) the issue of lateral movement can become a problem. I suggest that the compound used for the sleeper may need to be tweaked so that is loses some of its hardness and can dig into the ballast. Otherwise timber is still going to be an option where concrete is not used.
Lateral movement is a significant issue. While it is exacerbated with weight and speed, even unused track can go out of line.
Maybe a pattern could be designed into the underside of the compound sleeper; a concave indented pattern designed to aggressively hang onto the ballast.
I wonder if a sawtooth underside might be the aggressive connection required?

Though the steel ones in NSW are just convex and the ballast is tamped up underneath them so that is perhaps all that is needed.

Or just steel sleepers...
james.au
Steel works well in arid environments where line speed is not so high.   WA use a lot of steel in a pattern with timber.  1:4 and then later 1:2.   The use is helped by proper tamping procedures to ensure its done properly.    Its also fair to comment that steel success is also tied to these aspects too:
- use larger and harder ballast that has good locking capacity to bite inside the void.
- must, absolutely must, ensure that the ballast is PH neutral.
- the rail surface must be of high quality.   No joints, no dipped welds and no wheel burns. (which is true for ALL sleepers and rail)

The effort placed into these aspects at construction/reconstruction is a sound return on investment.  

Don't forget steel sleepers and tract circuits don't mix too well.   For sure insulated rail feet is common but hardly what I would call constructible or maintainable with high use.

Regarding plastic sleepers, I wonder how well they resist fire.  Don't think I would like to be rail grinding and set them on fire and try and put them out.  Toxic mess, ouch.  

I wonder if using a steel sleeper filled with a softer plastic would improve the dynamics of the structure.  Flip the sleeper over, fill it up.
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
-  Thousands of serviceable wooden sleepers and all the required rail (107lb) readily available for nothing from the now closed North Line at Bungaree, along with five (5) sets of boom barriers.

- So on all counts its an absolute NO BRAINER not to re-activate this line and restore a valuable cross country link, and get more freight on rail and off roads, plus extend passenger services to Marong.
- talk about decison makers - ASLEEP at THE WHEEL  !!!!
kuldalai
Would any of this rail be used on the A'rat - M'brh that needs to be re-railed ? Is there a schedule or vague time frame for this, yet or still in the too hard basket.

BigShunter.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

-  Thousands of serviceable wooden sleepers and all the required rail (107lb) readily available for nothing from the now closed North Line at Bungaree, along with five (5) sets of boom barriers.

- So on all counts its an absolute NO BRAINER not to re-activate this line and restore a valuable cross country link, and get more freight on rail and off roads, plus extend passenger services to Marong.
- talk about decison makers - ASLEEP at THE WHEEL  !!!!
Would any of this rail be used on the A'rat - M'brh that needs to be re-railed ? Is there a schedule or vague time frame for this, yet or still in the too hard basket.

BigShunter.
BigShunter
Maryborough to Ararat needs up to 150km worth of rail replaced (2x75km).  Rail ex-Bungaree would only be 24km worth of secondhand rail.

I think they'll need to replace the rail in sections during quieter times (before fruit or grain harvests).  Or hit it in one go while running some Manangatang fruities down the Broad gauge like they did in 2017.  Probably won't be all done until late-2022.
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
Maryborough to Ararat needs up to 150km worth of rail replaced (2x75km).  Rail ex-Bungaree would only be 24km worth of secondhand rail.

I think they'll need to replace the rail in sections during quieter times (before fruit or grain harvests).  Or hit it in one go while running some Manangatang fruities down the Broad gauge like they did in 2017.  Probably won't be all done until late-2022.
Carnot
Of course, brain not engaged when I wrote that..Rolling Eyes

Size or Length does matter  Razz

BigShunter.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Maryborough to Ararat needs up to 150km worth of rail replaced (2x75km).  Rail ex-Bungaree would only be 24km worth of secondhand rail.

Carnot
Maryborough - Ararat line Is 87 km's long
  cbinyon Chief Train Controller

Location: London, England
-  Thousands of serviceable wooden sleepers and all the required rail (107lb) readily available for nothing from the now closed North Line at Bungaree, along with five (5) sets of boom barriers.

- So on all counts its an absolute NO BRAINER not to re-activate this line and restore a valuable cross country link, and get more freight on rail and off roads, plus extend passenger services to Marong.
- talk about decison makers - ASLEEP at THE WHEEL  !!!!
Would any of this rail be used on the A'rat - M'brh that needs to be re-railed ? Is there a schedule or vague time frame for this, yet or still in the too hard basket.

BigShunter.
Maryborough to Ararat needs up to 150km worth of rail replaced (2x75km).  Rail ex-Bungaree would only be 24km worth of secondhand rail.

I think they'll need to replace the rail in sections during quieter times (before fruit or grain harvests).  Or hit it in one go while running some Manangatang fruities down the Broad gauge like they did in 2017.  Probably won't be all done until late-2022.
Carnot
That's if trains can actually run to Manangatang and at more the 20 KM/H?
  Carnot Minister for Railways

-  Thousands of serviceable wooden sleepers and all the required rail (107lb) readily available for nothing from the now closed North Line at Bungaree, along with five (5) sets of boom barriers.

- So on all counts its an absolute NO BRAINER not to re-activate this line and restore a valuable cross country link, and get more freight on rail and off roads, plus extend passenger services to Marong.
- talk about decison makers - ASLEEP at THE WHEEL  !!!!
Would any of this rail be used on the A'rat - M'brh that needs to be re-railed ? Is there a schedule or vague time frame for this, yet or still in the too hard basket.

BigShunter.
Maryborough to Ararat needs up to 150km worth of rail replaced (2x75km).  Rail ex-Bungaree would only be 24km worth of secondhand rail.

I think they'll need to replace the rail in sections during quieter times (before fruit or grain harvests).  Or hit it in one go while running some Manangatang fruities down the Broad gauge like they did in 2017.  Probably won't be all done until late-2022.
That's if trains can actually run to Manangatang and at more the 20 KM/H?
cbinyon
The slow sections should have higher speeds later this year.  i.e. 40-60km/h the whole way North of Dunolly.
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

Another article on this in The Age today.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/obsolete-19th-century-rail-farmers-fume-over-gaps-in-freight-rail-upgrade-20210225-p575sx.html

What I would like to know is how did this project blow out so badly and so quickly?
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Another article on this in The Age today.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/obsolete-19th-century-rail-farmers-fume-over-gaps-in-freight-rail-upgrade-20210225-p575sx.html

What I would like to know is how did this project blow out so badly and so quickly?
Duncs
Poor scoping in the original business plan that wildly underestimated costs (and how badly degraded the lines were), and mistakes/shortcuts by the contractor IIRC.

Meanwhile, NSW is upgrading Junee to Griffith to 25 tonne axle load (for the bargain basement cost of $60 million), while many of our lines are 20-40 km/h goat tracks that are slower than they were in the steam era.
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

Another article on this in The Age today.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/obsolete-19th-century-rail-farmers-fume-over-gaps-in-freight-rail-upgrade-20210225-p575sx.html

What I would like to know is how did this project blow out so badly and so quickly?
Poor scoping in the original business plan that wildly underestimated costs (and how badly degraded the lines were), and mistakes/shortcuts by the contractor IIRC.

Meanwhile, NSW is upgrading Junee to Griffith to 25 tonne axle load (for the bargain basement cost of $60 million), while many of our lines are 20-40 km/h goat tracks that are slower than they were in the steam era.
Carnot
Time to bring in the NSW contractors I would say.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
Another article on this in The Age today.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/obsolete-19th-century-rail-farmers-fume-over-gaps-in-freight-rail-upgrade-20210225-p575sx.html

What I would like to know is how did this project blow out so badly and so quickly?
Poor scoping in the original business plan that wildly underestimated costs (and how badly degraded the lines were), and mistakes/shortcuts by the contractor IIRC.

Meanwhile, NSW is upgrading Junee to Griffith to 25 tonne axle load (for the bargain basement cost of $60 million), while many of our lines are 20-40 km/h goat tracks that are slower than they were in the steam era.
Time to bring in the NSW contractors I would say.
Duncs
NSW bureaucrats would be better.  Theyre the ones that make the decisions and pick the contractors....
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
Meanwhile, NSW is upgrading Junee to Griffith to 25 tonne axle load (for the bargain basement cost of $60 million), while many of our lines are 20-40 km/h goat tracks that are slower than they were in the steam era.
Carnot
Now that is a serious section of decent modern day line !

About 15yrs ago while developing my foaming skills, each month feverishly studying my monthly copy of the Railway Digest, it seemed the Tasmanian Rail system was on it's knees and the NSW regional freight system falling into a similar state of disrepair.

However the Tassy rail network with a systematic overhaul has dug it's self out of a hole and as far as I'm aware is running quite well.

The NSW network over the last few years has rebounded very well, with a structured reworking, throughout as the example above points out.

How is it, with every 2 steps forward, we seem to end 3 steps backward with the Vic regional lines.

Why are we are missing out on the personal that other states have been able to obtain to rejuvenate their rail lines and we still have bloody 19th century goat tracks.

The lines that have been converted to standard gauge are an improvement but hardly setting the world on fire.

BigShunter.

i don't get the railway digest anymore, RP has whirlpool of indepth info Idea, appearing right in front of our eyes Laughing
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
The UP Mildura is well and truly delayed today via Gheirnghap.

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