Table Top Crossing Loop - Removal

 
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
'Inland Rail trains will be up to 1800m long, and simple crossing loops should be a little bit longer, say 1850m.'
One loco length (~) each end is not enough?

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  Jack Le Lievre Assistant Commissioner

Location: Moolap Station, Vic
Standing room is standing room; usually between STARTING (?) signals in signalled territory otherwise between fouling points. We have been over this before.
If the distance is between STARTING signals, then this is much longer than a "simple" 1800m IR loop. But 3400m is much less than for a PASSING LANE. It is UNHELPFUL to quote the Signals without saying exactly which signals are involved. This matter has yet to be resolved. There is no "unhelpful" button. Sad

Eventually the new diagram for Ettamogah will be issued and more will be made clear.
WimbledonW
I think that if there was an "Unhelpful" button then most of your post would be constantly marked "Unhelpful".

You have been picking at people's post complaining that they need to explain things better, then when they do you complain that they are not using the correct terminology, these people are people who currently work in the Rail Industry, and have even proven that you are wrong by providing you with copies of the Glossary of Terms, and you continue to complain, then go and make up your own terms such as "1800m IR loop" which is not correct terminology.

I think that you might need to settle down and actually listen to what these people say and learn from them instead of constantly criticising them.
  Fatty Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Standing room is standing room; usually between STARTING (?) signals in signalled territory otherwise between fouling points. We have been over this before.
If the distance is between STARTING signals, then this is much longer than a "simple" 1800m IR loop. But 3400m is much less than for a PASSING LANE. It is UNHELPFUL to quote the Signals without saying exactly which signals are involved. This matter has yet to be resolved. There is no "unhelpful" button. Sad

Eventually the new diagram for Ettamogah will be issued and more will be made clear.
WimbledonW

You asked the standing room in the new Ettamogah loop. I then gave you an estimate and measured it on site. I answered your question directly, twice. Not sure how you deem that unhelpful but I'll be sure to never answer a question from you again.
  WimbledonW Chief Train Controller

Location: Sydney
What is an IR loop (as distinct from any other loop)?
I am at a loss to see the point of this thread.
A crossing loop may be a long as a 'piece of string'. A so called passing lane is only a long crossing loop.

Inland Rail trains will be up to 1800m long, and simple crossing loops should be a little bit longer, say 1850m.

An extra long loop, say 3400m, may allow "simultaneous arrivals". It may also put the turnouts on straight track.
WimbledonW
A diagram of the work at Ettamogah / Tabletop clarifies most things, pictures being worth 1000 words.

The new loop at Ettamogah is actually an "Arrival Road" 3420m long, between Starting signals EH6/EH8 at the north end and EH21/EH23 at the south end.

There are non-interlocked turnouts connected to this Arrival Road, and  the Home signals EH5 and EH24 display Shunt aspect for trains arriving in the Arrival Road. Turnouts 101A and 105A onto the Arrival Road have catchpoints (and Auto Normalising) to protect the mainline from runaway vehicles.

There is no mention of turnout speeds. At Goobang one siding is connected to the main line by what looks like in a picture by a medium speed turnout. This is next to the Brolgan Road West level crossing. This could mean departure at 80km/h but arrivals at only 25km/h. Ettamogah might follow this precedent.

Ettamogah has a Hardstand Road 2 which is 790m long but the length of the hardstand itself is not mentioned.

It is not explained how Ettamogah Hub will be shunted, or whether there is a dedicated shunting engine.
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

What is an IR loop (as distinct from any other loop)?
I am at a loss to see the point of this thread.
A crossing loop may be a long as a 'piece of string'. A so called passing lane is only a long crossing loop.
YM-Mundrabilla
When does a passing lane become a short section of double track?
  WimbledonW Chief Train Controller

Location: Sydney
When does a passing lane become a short section of double track?
duttonbay
When both trains making the running cross can travel at line speed, say
* 115km/h on the Main
* 80km/h on the loop, because of the X80 turnouts.

When there are intermediate auto signals that allow two trains to be held in the main or loop..
* such as VIC
* but not like NSW where the intermediate signals are distant signals (except Yerong Creek in one direction).
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
There is no mention of turnout speeds. At Goobang one siding is connected to the main line by what looks like in a picture by a medium speed turnout. This is next to the Brolgan Road West level crossing. This could mean departure at 80km/h but arrivals at only 25km/h. Ettamogah might follow this precedent.
WimbledonW
UUhh, why would there need to be a turnout speed sign?

From the Up Home, EH24, you only have a couple hundred metres to a 25km/h speed board for the Arrival Road. The same applies for the Down Home, EH5, both of which authorise movements into the Arrival Road with Dead End signals, which, being a Shunt Signal, require you to operate at Restricted Speed. And as you have to maintain compliance with ANSG604, you are limited to 25kph until the last vehicle on your train clears those speed boards when departing.

EH8 also has a 25kph permanent speed restriction on passing it due to the level crossing timing for Tynan Road. This is all clearly documented in the relevant SAFE notice.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
When does a passing lane become a short section of double track?
When both trains making the running cross can travel at line speed, say
* 115km/h on the Main
* 80km/h on the loop, because of the X80 turnouts.

When there are intermediate auto signals that allow two trains to be held in the main or loop..
* such as VIC
* but not like NSW where the intermediate signals are distant signals (except Yerong Creek in one direction).
WimbledonW
'... When both trains making the running cross can travel at line speed, say
* 115km/h on the Main* 80km/h on the loop, because of the X80 turnouts. ...'

Living dangerously aren't we? Question
  WimbledonW Chief Train Controller

Location: Sydney
When does a passing lane become a short section of double track?
When both trains making the running cross can travel at line speed, say
* 115km/h on the Main
* 80km/h on the loop, because of the X80 turnouts.

When there are intermediate auto signals that allow two trains to be held in the main or loop..
* such as VIC
* but not like NSW where the intermediate signals are distant signals (except Yerong Creek in one direction).
'... When both trains making the running cross can travel at line speed, say
* 115km/h on the Main* 80km/h on the loop, because of the X80 turnouts. ...'

Living dangerously aren't we? Question
YM-Mundrabilla

Fatal accidents have indeed occurred at crossing loops where the loop is barely longer than the trains, or where there is no safety margin called an "overlap" past the starting signal. Five accidents come to mind:

* Hines Hill, WA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hines_Hill_train_collision)
* Exeter, NSW, 1914 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exeter_crossing_loop_collision)
* Geurie, NSW, 1963 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geurie_crossing_loop_collision)
*** (garratt engine in loop stopped past clearance post and was standing foul of main line)
* Picton, NSW, (Up Refuge points restored while refuged train still foul of main line).
* Casey Jones's accident at Vaughn, USA. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casey_Jones)
*** Yard at Vaughn chok-a-block with trains, including some vehicles on the main lines.
*** Compare this with new Ettamogah which has a 3420m arrival road with, it seems, plenty of room to handle/shunt 1800m trains clear of main lines.

* Violet Town like accidents can of course happen anywhere if Signals Passed At Danger (SPAD) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violet_Town_rail_accident) No AWS (NIH) and poor Vigilance control.

Passing lanes are
* considerably longer than the 1800m long trains that will operate there particularly if you consider than half their length from the intermediate auto/distant signal to the Starting Signal is relevant (6km/2 = 3km)
* have 300m long overlaps past the Starting Signals.

So what's the problem? Are there any Passing Lane accidents to report?

BTW, edited at least 7 times.
  Fatty Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
When there are intermediate auto signals that allow two trains to be held in the main or loop..
* such as VIC
WimbledonW

Where they don't put two trains in a loop and most of the intermediate signals are home signals not autos.


* but not like NSW where the intermediate signals are distant signals (except Yerong Creek in one direction).
WimbledonW

Where they do put two trains in a loop.
  WimbledonW Chief Train Controller

Location: Sydney

VIC: Where they don't put two trains in a loop and most of the intermediate signals are home signals not autos.

NSW: Where they do put two trains in a loop.
Fatty
Firstly Fatty is right about the length of Arrival Road at Ettamogah being 3420m; the diagram just received calls it thus; it is not a "Crossing Loop."

The intermediate signals in the Vic Passing Lanes at have straight posts and show red lights, and so must be home signals rather than autos, though they are numbered like autos.

The intermediate signals in the NSW PL at, say Gerogery, have staggered posts, and show only yellow lights (no reds), and so must be distant signals. They are named "Distant for XYZ".
  Fatty Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Fatty, I was wondering if you could do one more video (if possible). I was rather interested in what (if anything) remains at Kinloss Loop that was located on the southern side of the Thurgoona Road overpass.
Campaspe 2

I took a couple of videos (very Wink) recently which may be of interest.

The first is running past Ettamogah showing the work that's been completed so far. It's about 3' 30" long: Ettamogah

The second is a run all the way through Albury to the Murray. It's about 9' 20": Albury

Hosted on what should be an antivirus friendly server this time. Once again apologies for the shakiness.
  CPH8 Locomotive Driver

You can still see the patch on the silo where the Garratt hit it
  7334 Chief Commissioner

Location: In the workshop wondering why I started 7334 in the first place
Fatty, I was wondering if you could do one more video (if possible). I was rather interested in what (if anything) remains at Kinloss Loop that was located on the southern side of the Thurgoona Road overpass.

I took a couple of videos (very Wink) recently which may be of interest.

The first is running past Ettamogah showing the work that's been completed so far. It's about 3' 30" long: Ettamogah

The second is a run all the way through Albury to the Murray. It's about 9' 20": Albury

Hosted on what should be an antivirus friendly server this time. Once again apologies for the shakiness.
Fatty
Thank you for taking and posting the two videos, very interesting.

Regards,

7334
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
You can see that the whole line is going to need to be redone when it is duplicated - the alignment shifts all over the place, in Victoria and to Albury the second track would be on the western side, between Albury and Ettamogah, based on the road overpasses, probably on the east (with a fair bit of earthworks required) and in some places the track runs right throguh the middle of where a double track would go.  

Not going to be a cheap duplication that is for sure.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
You can still see the patch on the silo where the Garratt hit it
CPH8
whats the story here?  and where's the silo?
  WimbledonW Chief Train Controller

Location: Sydney

I took a couple of videos (very Wink) recently which may be of interest.

The first is running past Ettamogah showing the work that's been completed so far. It's about 3' 30" long: Ettamogah

.
7334
The video shows a loco (T-class? Y-class) which would be the Ettamogah shunter ?. It is liveried "Regional Connect" in green. Cannot read the loco number.

Another video is needed when the trackwork is complete, please.


See: https://www.railpage.com.au/locos/y-class/y151
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Pleasing to see so much freight in the terminal looks like a healthy operation.
  Campaspe 2 Junior Train Controller

Hello Fatty,

Thanks for going to the trouble of taking and then posting the two videos - they are fantastic !!

Also, for people like myself who are IT challenged, thanks for putting up a version that is easy to use.

Fascinating having a look at the progress on the new siding at the Ettamogah Rail Hub. Equally, its great having a look at the site of Kinloss Loop (You were right Fatty, there's nothing left that is obvious) and all the bridges between Thurgoona Drive and Albury that were built in 2006 (I believe) as part of the Hume Freeway project.

Other interesting things were:

(1) The remains of the former Albury Stockyards platform face.
(2) The way the aerial wires cross from one side of the line to the other for no obvious reason in the second video (maybe due to the location of former sidings?). Are these aerial wires still in use and for what purpose? They seem to start near the Billy Hughes Bridge (The one located at the Albury end of the Ettamogah sidings).
(3) The remains of the broad gauge track on the bridge over the Murray River.

Just to answer one of the questions that was posted.

The loco at the Ettamogah Rail Hub is Y 151. It is the main shunter at Ettamogah. It was bought by Col Rees (the owner of the Ettamogah terminal) in around 2013 from Pacific National and was overhauled and repainted in the green and grey "Regional Connect" livery at Seymour. It has been in use at Ettamogah since 2015. Prior to its arrival, the hub used a CargoSprinter to shunt wagons around the terminal (The CargoSprinter originally entered service with CRT in 2002). I am not sure where the CargoSprinter is at present. It might be stored on site at Ettamogah in the main shed.

I believe that all the signals and trackwork at Ettamogah will be commissioned this coming weekend. This will also see the official end of Table Top Loop - which has been out of service since 2010.

Kind Regards

Campaspe
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
What traffic goes in and out of Ettamogah these days, please?
My last experience at Ettamogah/Albury/Wodonga was 100 years ago Rolling Eyes when there was still newsprint in vans out of Ettamogah, vans of dog food from the 'Dog Factory' at Wodonga and slab transfer SG-BG in the Albury Yard.
  NSWGR8022 Chief Commissioner

Location: From the lands of Journalism and Free Speech
Albury looks a wasteland when it had so much traffic available.    So sad to see it fail like that.

Wodonga had oil, intermodal and the uncle bens loading from their siding.  Was cement also sent to Wodonga?

Love the videos they are really good and show much detail.  I can also see there is room for expansion at Tabletop with 3 sidings?
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
Other interesting things were:

(1) The remains of the former Albury Stockyards platform face.
(2) The way the aerial wires cross from one side of the line to the other for no obvious reason in the second video (maybe due to the location of former sidings?). Are these aerial wires still in use and for what purpose? They seem to start near the Billy Hughes Bridge (The one located at the Albury end of the Ettamogah sidings).
(3) The remains of the broad gauge track on the bridge over the Murray River.
Campaspe 2
timestamps for the above

1 - I think about 4.40
2 - Example at 3.35
3 - About 8.20

I dont know where Kinloss loop was so cant do that one sorry.
  Fatty Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
I am not sure where the CargoSprinter is at present. It might be stored on site at Ettamogah in the main shed.
Campaspe 2
I'm pretty sure it's stored in the sidings down towards the paper mill with quite a few locos.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Australia and especially Victoria does like to rationalise into oblivion.
  WimbledonW Chief Train Controller

Location: Sydney

I don't know where Kinloss loop was so can't do that one sorry.
james.au
Kinloss loop at 639.794km according to http://www.nswrail.net

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