X’Trapolis 2.0 announcement

 
  Upven Train Controller

IMO doesn't count for much.

MM1 Business case includes a fleet cascade plan, with "next gen suburban trains" going to Cross City Group and Craigieburn/Upfield. Semiens get moved to Sandringham, allowing for the retirement of the remaining Comengs. With some older units marked for retirement next year once the HCMTs are operating.

However, with nothing in the budget for new trains it will be a couple of years before we see any of this come into effect.

Lockie
Yep. Victoria has kind of lost the plot when it comes to Rolling Stock. That's why this state we are installing state of the art Information systems in Comengs and giving old H type carriages the new PTV livery. What a joke.

Incidentally, after 2025 the Cross City Group will be Werribee/Laverton/Williamstown and Sandringham. The Frankston services will move back to the City loop.

Michael
I don't see the point of quoting a December 1 2019 post that talks about no funding, in a previous budget, immediately after a subsequent budget announcement funding the purchase of new trains. Trying to make a point using a post that has just been made redundant is pretty pointless IMHO

Neil
Neil, for the record, I do believe that they will fund new trains. But I am arguing that it is such a scatter gun approach. In addition to 25 new XTraps 2.0, we are in this state installing advanced Info systems in old trains and refurbishing very old carriages. Everything seems to be done in an ad-hoc fashion when it comes to rolling stock.

Michael
mejhammers1
The weird rolling stock model loyalty aside, the purchase of Xtraps signals low confidence by VLP in purchasing more HCMTs. Instead we've gone for essentially X'trapolis Mega. Wonder why we didn't go for X'trapolis Cityduplex's with an even greater seating capacity more designed for a city like Melbourne's journey times.

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  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

IMO doesn't count for much.

MM1 Business case includes a fleet cascade plan, with "next gen suburban trains" going to Cross City Group and Craigieburn/Upfield. Semiens get moved to Sandringham, allowing for the retirement of the remaining Comengs. With some older units marked for retirement next year once the HCMTs are operating.

However, with nothing in the budget for new trains it will be a couple of years before we see any of this come into effect.

Lockie
Yep. Victoria has kind of lost the plot when it comes to Rolling Stock. That's why this state we are installing state of the art Information systems in Comengs and giving old H type carriages the new PTV livery. What a joke.

Incidentally, after 2025 the Cross City Group will be Werribee/Laverton/Williamstown and Sandringham. The Frankston services will move back to the City loop.

Michael
I don't see the point of quoting a December 1 2019 post that talks about no funding, in a previous budget, immediately after a subsequent budget announcement funding the purchase of new trains. Trying to make a point using a post that has just been made redundant is pretty pointless IMHO

Neil
Neil, for the record, I do believe that they will fund new trains. But I am arguing that it is such a scatter gun approach. In addition to 25 new XTraps 2.0, we are in this state installing advanced Info systems in old trains and refurbishing very old carriages. Everything seems to be done in an ad-hoc fashion when it comes to rolling stock.

Michael
The weird rolling stock model loyalty aside, the purchase of Xtraps signals low confidence by VLP in purchasing more HCMTs. Instead we've gone for essentially X'trapolis Mega. Wonder why we didn't go for X'trapolis Cityduplex's with an even greater seating capacity more designed for a city like Melbourne's journey times.
Upven
The newport workshops will be busy churning out HCMTs and then extending them until at least 2027/2028, where as the Alstom factory in Ballarat is now sitting empty and near-abandoned. It makes sense to spread the load around. The Dandenong factory once the E-Class trams number 100 will also need a new project, so expect Alstom "Bombardier" to get the next tram order.
  Upven Train Controller

IMO doesn't count for much.

MM1 Business case includes a fleet cascade plan, with "next gen suburban trains" going to Cross City Group and Craigieburn/Upfield. Semiens get moved to Sandringham, allowing for the retirement of the remaining Comengs. With some older units marked for retirement next year once the HCMTs are operating.

However, with nothing in the budget for new trains it will be a couple of years before we see any of this come into effect.

Lockie
Yep. Victoria has kind of lost the plot when it comes to Rolling Stock. That's why this state we are installing state of the art Information systems in Comengs and giving old H type carriages the new PTV livery. What a joke.

Incidentally, after 2025 the Cross City Group will be Werribee/Laverton/Williamstown and Sandringham. The Frankston services will move back to the City loop.

Michael
I don't see the point of quoting a December 1 2019 post that talks about no funding, in a previous budget, immediately after a subsequent budget announcement funding the purchase of new trains. Trying to make a point using a post that has just been made redundant is pretty pointless IMHO

Neil
Neil, for the record, I do believe that they will fund new trains. But I am arguing that it is such a scatter gun approach. In addition to 25 new XTraps 2.0, we are in this state installing advanced Info systems in old trains and refurbishing very old carriages. Everything seems to be done in an ad-hoc fashion when it comes to rolling stock.

Michael
The weird rolling stock model loyalty aside, the purchase of Xtraps signals low confidence by VLP in purchasing more HCMTs. Instead we've gone for essentially X'trapolis Mega. Wonder why we didn't go for X'trapolis Cityduplex's with an even greater seating capacity more designed for a city like Melbourne's journey times.
The newport workshops will be busy churning out HCMTs and then extending them until at least 2027/2028, where as the Alstom factory in Ballarat is now sitting empty and near-abandoned. It makes sense to spread the load around. The Dandenong factory once the E-Class trams number 100 will also need a new project, so expect Alstom "Bombardier" to get the next tram order.
John.Z
I forgot we choose trains based on which assembly facility is most in need.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
I forgot we choose trains based on which assembly facility is most in need.
Upven
ABSOLUTELY !

Stated ALP policy to support local manufacturing.
Whether they achieve it as much as they could is debatable, but they are doing it sometimes.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Can I ask how many actual carriages will be constructed for that price.  I am assuming 6 car sets and not 8?

There are 25 trains being built which if they are 6 cars is 150 cars to be constructed at a cost of $6m per carriage.  That does sound excessive!
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Can I ask how many actual carriages will be constructed for that price.  I am assuming 6 car sets and not 8?

There are 25 trains being built which if they are 6 cars is 150 cars to be constructed at a cost of $6m per carriage.  That does sound excessive!
bevans
https://www.alstom.com/press-releases-news/2018/7/alstom-supply-5-additional-xtrapolis-trains-victoria

60 million euros for 5 trains -> $95m dollars for 5 trains -> $3m per carriage.

Edit: I miscalculated sorry.

The high capacity trains comes at a cost for 2.3 billion dollars -> $35m dollars per train -> $5m per carriage.
If the new x-trapolis design is coming about the same cost as the HCMTs then it's in the ball-park.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

Can I ask how many actual carriages will be constructed for that price.  I am assuming 6 car sets and not 8?

There are 25 trains being built which if they are 6 cars is 150 cars to be constructed at a cost of $6m per carriage.  That does sound excessive!
Actually that's not that excessive. Look at the final order of xtrapolis trains. This is excessive!
https://www.alstom.com/press-releases-news/2018/7/alstom-supply-5-additional-xtrapolis-trains-victoria
60 million euros for 5 trains -> $95m dollars for 5 trains -> $16m per carriage.

The high capacity trains comes at a cost for 2.3 billion dollars -> $35m dollars per train -> $5m per carriage.
If the new x-trapolis design is coming about the same cost as the HCMTs then it's in the ball-park.
True Believers
I know that reporting is bad, but the most recent Xtrap orders have been that 1 train = 6 carriages, not 3, because they pretty much all run in 6 car consists now except for the odd shuttle.

$95m = $6m per carriage (5x3 cars) or $3m per carriage (5x6 cars)
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Can I ask how many actual carriages will be constructed for that price.  I am assuming 6 car sets and not 8?

There are 25 trains being built which if they are 6 cars is 150 cars to be constructed at a cost of $6m per carriage.  That does sound excessive!
Actually that's not that excessive. Look at the final order of xtrapolis trains. This is excessive!
https://www.alstom.com/press-releases-news/2018/7/alstom-supply-5-additional-xtrapolis-trains-victoria
60 million euros for 5 trains -> $95m dollars for 5 trains -> $16m per carriage.

The high capacity trains comes at a cost for 2.3 billion dollars -> $35m dollars per train -> $5m per carriage.
If the new x-trapolis design is coming about the same cost as the HCMTs then it's in the ball-park.
I know that reporting is bad, but the most recent Xtrap orders have been that 1 train = 6 carriages, not 3, because they pretty much all run in 6 car consists now except for the odd shuttle.

$95m = $6m per carriage (5x3 cars) or $3m per carriage (5x6 cars)
John.Z
You're right, my bad. But yeah each carriage of the older xtraps come in at 3m per carriage, the HCMTs come at 5m per carriage, these new xtraps come in 6m per carriage. It's not a substantial difference tbh if this is the first rollout of these trains, normally a newer design comes at a higher price and further orders would be cheaper right?
  Upven Train Controller

Can I ask how many actual carriages will be constructed for that price.  I am assuming 6 car sets and not 8?

There are 25 trains being built which if they are 6 cars is 150 cars to be constructed at a cost of $6m per carriage.  That does sound excessive!
Actually that's not that excessive. Look at the final order of xtrapolis trains. This is excessive!
https://www.alstom.com/press-releases-news/2018/7/alstom-supply-5-additional-xtrapolis-trains-victoria
60 million euros for 5 trains -> $95m dollars for 5 trains -> $16m per carriage.

The high capacity trains comes at a cost for 2.3 billion dollars -> $35m dollars per train -> $5m per carriage.
If the new x-trapolis design is coming about the same cost as the HCMTs then it's in the ball-park.
I know that reporting is bad, but the most recent Xtrap orders have been that 1 train = 6 carriages, not 3, because they pretty much all run in 6 car consists now except for the odd shuttle.

$95m = $6m per carriage (5x3 cars) or $3m per carriage (5x6 cars)
You're right, my bad. But yeah each carriage of the older xtraps come in at 3m per carriage, the HCMTs come at 5m per carriage, these new xtraps come in 6m per carriage. It's not a substantial difference tbh if this is the first rollout of these trains, normally a newer design comes at a higher price and further orders would be cheaper right?
€True Believers
Hmm let's compare this X'trapolis 2.0 with X'trapolis CityDuplex with hybrid single and double-deck version which costs €3.75b Euros aka $5.91b AUD for 1655 carriages in sets of 130x six-car-sets and 125 seven-car-sets. If my maths is correct that's around $3.57m each right?
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
IMO doesn't count for much.

MM1 Business case includes a fleet cascade plan, with "next gen suburban trains" going to Cross City Group and Craigieburn/Upfield. Semiens get moved to Sandringham, allowing for the retirement of the remaining Comengs. With some older units marked for retirement next year once the HCMTs are operating.

However, with nothing in the budget for new trains it will be a couple of years before we see any of this come into effect.

Lockie
Yep. Victoria has kind of lost the plot when it comes to Rolling Stock. That's why this state we are installing state of the art Information systems in Comengs and giving old H type carriages the new PTV livery. What a joke.

Incidentally, after 2025 the Cross City Group will be Werribee/Laverton/Williamstown and Sandringham. The Frankston services will move back to the City loop.

Michael
I don't see the point of quoting a December 1 2019 post that talks about no funding, in a previous budget, immediately after a subsequent budget announcement funding the purchase of new trains. Trying to make a point using a post that has just been made redundant is pretty pointless IMHO

Neil
Neil, for the record, I do believe that they will fund new trains. But I am arguing that it is such a scatter gun approach. In addition to 25 new XTraps 2.0, we are in this state installing advanced Info systems in old trains and refurbishing very old carriages. Everything seems to be done in an ad-hoc fashion when it comes to rolling stock.

Michael
mejhammers1
Fair enough. I may have mis-interpreted what you were meaning. With a better understanding of where you're coming from, I agree with you.

Neil
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
As much as I have supported this administration I see they have gone back to their really annoying method of announcing Rolling Stock. Grandstanding about a relatively small order of 25 trains, providing jobs for this state. 25 Trains, what is that going to do? There are 65 HCMT's. How many will be left after the allocation to the Sunbury, Cranbourne and Pakenham lines. There are only 36 6 Car Siemens trains and all the First Gen xTraps are taken by the Burnley and Clifton Hill Groups and some for the Cross City Group. So there will be 61 and change for the Craigieburn, Upfield, Frankston and some Cross City Services. Is that enough? By this analysis there will need to be some Comengs to be retained. Yeah, trains that are 40 years old.

There seems to be no plan when it comes to Rollingstock. We are in this state installing advanced Information systems in old Comengs and as part of the Rolling Stock announcement they are actually going to spend as much as $36 Million on refurbishing and maintaining the "Classic Fleet". That is almost as bad as spending $250 Million on refurbishing old trams many of which should have been binned by now. I mean really? really? Refurbishing and repainting into PTV Livery, old H and Z type carriages entering their 7th decade in operation? If Victoria had a coherent and serious rolling stock policy and had replaced them all with modern trains we would not need to refurbish old tin wormed riddled rubbish. NSW Trainlink are retiring trains far newer than our classic fleet. Hell even the V Sets are newer than the H and Z types. I mean what the actual!. Rolling stock policy in this state is an absolute farce.



Michael
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

The $95m probably includes extras at Craigieburn, although I don't doubt these sets will be more expensive because all engineering work will be charged to these first 25 sets (they're not exactly off the shelf)
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
In fairness regarding the retention of the elderly H and Z type carriages, This is mostly due to growth in passenger numbers more than anything else. V/Line have added 88 3 car Vlocities over the past 15 years and only retired one carriage set in that time. V/Line continue to add Vlocities and the state government continue to add new services to the roster.

Electrify Melton and Wyndham Vale taking them off V/Line and introduce the new SG Vlos for Albury and re-distribute the SG N type cars back on to Broad gauge and the H & Z cars could be retired immediately.

Of course, that requires the elephant in the room to be addressed.

Still waiting.
  Djebel Junior Train Controller

Which elephant is that?  There's so many to choose from.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

Are the Z cars ex. West Coast Railway?  They are not bad from impression.
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

As much as I have supported this administration I see they have gone back to their really annoying method of announcing Rolling Stock. Grandstanding about a relatively small order of 25 trains, providing jobs for this state. 25 Trains, what is that going to do? There are 65 HCMT's. How many will be left after the allocation to the Sunbury, Cranbourne and Pakenham lines. There are only 36 6 Car Siemens trains and all the First Gen xTraps are taken by the Burnley and Clifton Hill Groups and some for the Cross City Group. So there will be 61 and change for the Craigieburn, Upfield, Frankston and some Cross City Services. Is that enough? By this analysis there will need to be some Comengs to be retained. Yeah, trains that are 40 years old.

There seems to be no plan when it comes to Rollingstock. We are in this state installing advanced Information systems in old Comengs and as part of the Rolling Stock announcement they are actually going to spend as much as $36 Million on refurbishing and maintaining the "Classic Fleet". That is almost as bad as spending $250 Million on refurbishing old trams many of which should have been binned by now. I mean really? really? Refurbishing and repainting into PTV Livery, old H and Z type carriages entering their 7th decade in operation? If Victoria had a coherent and serious rolling stock policy and had replaced them all with modern trains we would not need to refurbish old tin wormed riddled rubbish. NSW Trainlink are retiring trains far newer than our classic fleet. Hell even the V Sets are newer than the H and Z types. I mean what the actual!. Rolling stock policy in this state is an absolute farce.



Michael
mejhammers1
25 units is enough to retire the oldest of the Comengs, the limited units that were refurbished were always planned to run on the network for the next 5 - 10 years. These are the units that have been equiped with the new PIDS. On a side note, this project was less about the fancy PID you see in the salon and more about the Backhaul infrastructure that runs the system. It wouldn't surprise me if we see something similar introduced to the Xtraps which are pushing 20 years old now.

Metro has 90 Comengs in service as of 2021, this will drop to 75 next year as the HCMTS are introduced.
2023 another 10 are retired
2024 only 48 are in service, hopefully by now all the HCMTS are in service.
2025 Metro tunnel opens and Xtrap 2.0 starts to roll off the line. Only 32 Comengs remain in service.
2028 the last 4 comengs are retired.

In metro's fleet plan, they expect all 64 HCMTS to be in service by 2024. As this plan is dated 2019, they were at the time expecting a further order of HCMTS to take the total to 77 by 2027. This is obviously not going to happen with the issues that have been had with the trains and the geopolitical climate.

EMUB06 (Guessing this is the Xtrap2.0) are planned to enter service rom 2024, with Metro expecting 8, then 18 by 2025 and 41 by 2026.

Also of note in EMUW10 (possible High Capacity Train that was mentioned for Melton & WV) to begin entering service from 2025 with only 13 units.

The numbers above are likely to change as one order is bulked up to replace the shortfall left by the HCMTS.

There is a loose plan and it is being followed (Rolling Stock Strategy 2018 -2030). You also need to look at the political climate, The Victorian Government ran a deficit this year and will most likely do so for the next 2 years. Announcing 50+ trains at a Muti billion dollar cost is only giving the opposition ammunition at the next election. We have an election coming up in 2022, with the next being 2026, expect an additional order before then. Once the budget is back in black and the HCMTs are no longer giving the government a headache.

Of course, that requires the elephant in the room to be addressed.
Gman_86

With more 'prep' works announced for Melton & WV (9 car Vlos, platform lengthening and the mention of 'High Capacity') sparking is no doubt going to be a 2022 election commitment. They have basically done everything except string up wires. By 2022 we should also have a better idea of what MARL looks like and where all that cash is going.

Lockie
  CraigieburnLineUser Locomotive Fireman

As much as I have supported this administration I see they have gone back to their really annoying method of announcing Rolling Stock. Grandstanding about a relatively small order of 25 trains, providing jobs for this state. 25 Trains, what is that going to do? There are 65 HCMT's. How many will be left after the allocation to the Sunbury, Cranbourne and Pakenham lines. There are only 36 6 Car Siemens trains and all the First Gen xTraps are taken by the Burnley and Clifton Hill Groups and some for the Cross City Group. So there will be 61 and change for the Craigieburn, Upfield, Frankston and some Cross City Services. Is that enough? By this analysis there will need to be some Comengs to be retained. Yeah, trains that are 40 years old.

There seems to be no plan when it comes to Rollingstock. We are in this state installing advanced Information systems in old Comengs and as part of the Rolling Stock announcement they are actually going to spend as much as $36 Million on refurbishing and maintaining the "Classic Fleet". That is almost as bad as spending $250 Million on refurbishing old trams many of which should have been binned by now. I mean really? really? Refurbishing and repainting into PTV Livery, old H and Z type carriages entering their 7th decade in operation? If Victoria had a coherent and serious rolling stock policy and had replaced them all with modern trains we would not need to refurbish old tin wormed riddled rubbish. NSW Trainlink are retiring trains far newer than our classic fleet. Hell even the V Sets are newer than the H and Z types. I mean what the actual!. Rolling stock policy in this state is an absolute farce.



Michael
25 units is enough to retire the oldest of the Comengs, the limited units that were refurbished were always planned to run on the network for the next 5 - 10 years. These are the units that have been equiped with the new PIDS. On a side note, this project was less about the fancy PID you see in the salon and more about the Backhaul infrastructure that runs the system. It wouldn't surprise me if we see something similar introduced to the Xtraps which are pushing 20 years old now.

Metro has 90 Comengs in service as of 2021, this will drop to 75 next year as the HCMTS are introduced.
2023 another 10 are retired
2024 only 48 are in service, hopefully by now all the HCMTS are in service.
2025 Metro tunnel opens and Xtrap 2.0 starts to roll off the line. Only 32 Comengs remain in service.
2028 the last 4 comengs are retired.

In metro's fleet plan, they expect all 64 HCMTS to be in service by 2024. As this plan is dated 2019, they were at the time expecting a further order of HCMTS to take the total to 77 by 2027. This is obviously not going to happen with the issues that have been had with the trains and the geopolitical climate.

EMUB06 (Guessing this is the Xtrap2.0) are planned to enter service rom 2024, with Metro expecting 8, then 18 by 2025 and 41 by 2026.

Also of note in EMUW10 (possible High Capacity Train that was mentioned for Melton & WV) to begin entering service from 2025 with only 13 units.

The numbers above are likely to change as one order is bulked up to replace the shortfall left by the HCMTS.

There is a loose plan and it is being followed (Rolling Stock Strategy 2018 -2030). You also need to look at the political climate, The Victorian Government ran a deficit this year and will most likely do so for the next 2 years. Announcing 50+ trains at a Muti billion dollar cost is only giving the opposition ammunition at the next election. We have an election coming up in 2022, with the next being 2026, expect an additional order before then. Once the budget is back in black and the HCMTs are no longer giving the government a headache.

Of course, that requires the elephant in the room to be addressed.

With more 'prep' works announced for Melton & WV (9 car Vlos, platform lengthening and the mention of 'High Capacity') sparking is no doubt going to be a 2022 election commitment. They have basically done everything except string up wires. By 2022 we should also have a better idea of what MARL looks like and where all that cash is going.

Lockie
Lockie91
Is the fleet plan in the public domain? Would love to take a look if so.
  tayser Deputy Commissioner
  CraigieburnLineUser Locomotive Fireman

Rolling stock strategy, see links on this page: https://transport.vic.gov.au/our-transport-future/our-projects/new-and-upgraded-trains-and-trams/victorian-rolling-stock-strategy
tayser
Thanks Tayser, I had seen that one and can see that with the next gen tram they're on track announcing it but some look like they should already be online. So I'm assuming the Metro one mentioned in the previous post is behind an intranet?
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

?
  Upven Train Controller

It's an interesting design choice, especially considering what it's average speed will be.
  loopy Junior Train Controller

I'm grateful for these new X'Trap 2.0 trains but am curious as to why it's only 25 trains being ordered for the Frankston, Craigieburn, Upfield lines - will they need another type of train to fill up the rest of those lines? I know it would be easy to move Siemens trains to Werribee, Williamstown, Sandringham. Also keep the X'Trap 1.0 to Werribee and Williamstown, but would X'Trap 1.0 trains be cleared to operate to Sandringham?
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
It's an interesting design choice, especially considering what it's average speed will be.
Upven
The nose cone is the same idea as per HCMT.

It's not just speed/efficiency, it's to  keep the idiot train surfers off.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
I'm grateful for these new X'Trap 2.0 trains but am curious as to why it's only 25 trains being ordered for the Frankston, Craigieburn, Upfield lines - will they need another type of train to fill up the rest of those lines? I know it would be easy to move Siemens trains to Werribee, Williamstown, Sandringham. Also keep the X'Trap 1.0 to Werribee and Williamstown, but would X'Trap 1.0 trains be cleared to operate to Sandringham?
loopy
At the moment, 25 is just keeping the eggs in more than one basket.

IF the new HCMT proves to be a better unit, then Alstrom will have to work extra hard to compete for any future orders.
       Of course that was when China was our 2nd best friend.

cheers
John
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Perhaps the Sandringham line would be served exclusively by Siemens trains?

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