Geelong line 2025, end state?

 
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

The Waurn Ponds overpass is being installed next months, and the rails have arrived for the 2nd platform so that should be finished maybe by the end of the year. Should I expect a new timetable as a result? The 2nd track looks pretty long, will they stable a train there overnight? Will the little siding last WP still be used?
Riain
1. Whole thing is supposed to be finished and commissioned along with Boorcan Loop by 12.2021.
2. On completion Warrnambool gets a fifth train each way on Weekdays. (VLP cannot run 4 reliably now, so going to five tempts just more amexes and short terminations - unless VLP can get their act together and start MANAGING .)
3. The new loop is something like 850m in clear and deisgned to allow crosses of both freight & passes.
4. The Waurn Ponds holding siding just beyond the Anglesea Road Overpass stays as is and allows for several sets to be held clear of the mainline allowing successive closely space services in both am and PM peaks.

Another damning failure at low cost to get a decent section of double track in that for the sake of 1km of track between Waurn Ponds station Loop and Waurn Ponds Holding Siding we could have realized double track from the Up end of Waurn Ponds station to the junction into the new Waurn ponds stabling facility just beyond the former Cemet Works sidings

Just like we have a silly 1 km single track bottlekneck between the Down end of the duplication through Bacchus Marsh and the Up end of Rowsley Loop.(rendering Rowsley Loop in its current form as a "white elephant."

In both cases no-one cares, silo mentalities, no one sitting at the top seeing that such low cost opportunities are  exploited.  Does not happen with roads projects or in removing "dangerous and congested level crossings" - so why does it happen with rail projects that potentially improve the capacity and operational reliability of the system ?

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  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Also note some further details on the Geelong to WP section https://www.railpage.com.au/f-p2219160.htm#2219160
  Riain Locomotive Fireman

Also note some further details on the Geelong to WP section https://www.railpage.com.au/f-p2219160.htm#2219160
bevans

There was a story on Geelong Fast Rail behind the Herald Sun and Geelong Addy paywall yesterday. Any idea what it was?

Interesting about the phased duplication between the Tunnel and WP, but given the seeming inability for governments all both stripes to do a nice, big-picture upgrade I'll take what they'll do rather than hope for a better solution that never arrives. In any case picking this piece of low hanging fruit puts other low hanging fruit like the bridges over the Barwon River and WP creek into view.

Does South Geelong still have 2 sidings in the yard? The long one on the north side of the rack and the short one on the south side of the track? If so will this get more use with the duplication?
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
Just like we have a silly 1 km single track bottlekneck between the Down end of the duplication through Bacchus Marsh and the Up end of Rowsley Loop.(rendering Rowsley Loop in its current form as a "white elephant."
kuldalai

It's time I said something about the white elephant Rowsley Loop.

On the UP, drivers hate it, especially when the rails are wet and therefore slippery as they have to commence reducing speed half way down the escarpment and ride the brakes all the way to the bottom of the hill and using the engines to brake as well as I've heard this whenever we used to use the loop.

From the drivers point of view the money would have been better spent elsewhere.

On the DOWN is almost as bad because it's basically a standing start at the bottom of that long climb. It's no wonder the Rowsley loop is quietly rusting.

Mike.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Just like we have a silly 1 km single track bottlekneck between the Down end of the duplication through Bacchus Marsh and the Up end of Rowsley Loop.(rendering Rowsley Loop in its current form as a "white elephant."

It's time I said something about the white elephant Rowsley Loop.

On the UP, drivers hate it, especially when the rails are wet and therefore slippery as they have to commence reducing speed half way down the escarpment and ride the brakes all the way to the bottom of the hill and using the engines to brake as well as I've heard this whenever we used to use the loop.

From the drivers point of view the money would have been better spent elsewhere.

On the DOWN is almost as bad because it's basically a standing start at the bottom of that long climb. It's no wonder the Rowsley loop is quietly rusting.

Mike.
The Vinelander
On a positive note.
If the UP train sliding down the hill must be put away in the loop:roll:
at least the rust on the rails will give some grip for the brakes.

John.
  jakar Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Just like we have a silly 1 km single track bottlekneck between the Down end of the duplication through Bacchus Marsh and the Up end of Rowsley Loop.(rendering Rowsley Loop in its current form as a "white elephant."

It's time I said something about the white elephant Rowsley Loop.

On the UP, drivers hate it, especially when the rails are wet and therefore slippery as they have to commence reducing speed half way down the escarpment and ride the brakes all the way to the bottom of the hill and using the engines to brake as well as I've heard this whenever we used to use the loop.

From the drivers point of view the money would have been better spent elsewhere.

On the DOWN is almost as bad because it's basically a standing start at the bottom of that long climb. It's no wonder the Rowsley loop is quietly rusting.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Well said Mike, continuing the duplication out to Rowsley might look good on paper to some but is not ideal in practice. The current arrangement of ending the duplication at Maddingley allows for faster runs up and down the hill.

I haven't checked if there's any rostered crosses anymore at Rowsley but it still gets used particularly when things have gone a little pear shaped. I had a cross there a couple of weeks ago due to late running during the morning peak. I believe one or two late night down services are scheduled to run through Rowsley loop to try and keep the rust away.
  8502 Chief Train Controller

There was a story on Geelong Fast Rail behind the Herald Sun and Geelong Addy paywall yesterday. Any idea what it was?
Riain

I think it related to this article which is online

https://Railpage.com.au/news/s/geelong-residents-warned-to-expect-lengthy-wait-for-faster-train-to-melbourne
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Also note some further details on the Geelong to WP section https://www.railpage.com.au/f-p2219160.htm#2219160

There was a story on Geelong Fast Rail behind the Herald Sun and Geelong Addy paywall yesterday. Any idea what it was?

Interesting about the phased duplication between the Tunnel and WP, but given the seeming inability for governments all both stripes to do a nice, big-picture upgrade I'll take what they'll do rather than hope for a better solution that never arrives. In any case picking this piece of low hanging fruit puts other low hanging fruit like the bridges over the Barwon River and WP creek into view.

Does South Geelong still have 2 sidings in the yard? The long one on the north side of the rack and the short one on the south side of the track? If so will this get more use with the duplication?
Riain
South Geelong has a siding on the North side the remnant of the former Queenscliff line extending as far East as Garden Street.  Will hold 3 cars on the Up side of Swanston St & a 6 and a 3 on the Down side.  Access to and from the platform by crossover and fixed signals operated from the South Geelong frame.  Just off the platform on the South side is an Annett locked siding around 22om long which ends at Swanston St lx and will hold up to a 6 VL set in clear. Annett key is electrically released from the interlocking frame.  That siding is rarely used.    With the duplication would expect with 2 platforms that the existing platform will retain two way operation, and that the new North Side platform Down direction only.  Existing Queenscliff line will be extended as the new Down Line and the existing mainline will become the new Up line. Existing crossover at Down end station stays,  Existing 40kmh LH turnout on the Up side of  Yarra Street hopefully replaced with 65kmh  LH turnout to the new second platform. Whether the 220m siding on the South side is retained who knows.  Word is the whole thing will be done with TPWS and 3 position signalling right through to Waurn Ponds, as the current mix of 3 and 2 position light signalling is too confusing, also the falling gradient into Marshall and a history of several SPADS there.
Currently the Queenscliff line is used in the regulat Weekday 20 minute Off Peak cycle with alternate trains terminating at South Geelong and the Ponds  thus  :  Terminated Down Sth Geelong on Queenscliff line, then comes Up Ponds, followed immediately by Down Ponds, the the set in the Queenscliff Line comes out and forms an Up Sgr which crosses the next Dn Sgr between North Geelong and geelong , on arrival Sth Geelong gets put away on the Queenscliff line then the whole cycle repeats itself . At peak times some South Geelong shorts do an immediate turnaround at the platform, and at other times they are put away on the Queenscliff line and returnedto Geelong Ety Cars as the flow of Down passess tp The Ponds and Marshall permits.
  Riain Locomotive Fireman

There was a story on Geelong Fast Rail behind the Herald Sun and Geelong Addy paywall yesterday. Any idea what it was?

I think it related to this article which is online

https://Railpage.com.au/news/s/geelong-residents-warned-to-expect-lengthy-wait-for-faster-train-to-melbourne
8502

That looks like it, but why is GFR linked to Airport rail?
  Riain Locomotive Fireman

Also note some further details on the Geelong to WP section https://www.railpage.com.au/f-p2219160.htm#2219160

There was a story on Geelong Fast Rail behind the Herald Sun and Geelong Addy paywall yesterday. Any idea what it was?

Interesting about the phased duplication between the Tunnel and WP, but given the seeming inability for governments all both stripes to do a nice, big-picture upgrade I'll take what they'll do rather than hope for a better solution that never arrives. In any case picking this piece of low hanging fruit puts other low hanging fruit like the bridges over the Barwon River and WP creek into view.

Does South Geelong still have 2 sidings in the yard? The long one on the north side of the rack and the short one on the south side of the track? If so will this get more use with the duplication?
South Geelong has a siding on the North side the remnant of the former Queenscliff line extending as far East as Garden Street.  Will hold 3 cars on the Up side of Swanston St & a 6 and a 3 on the Down side.  Access to and from the platform by crossover and fixed signals operated from the South Geelong frame.  Just off the platform on the South side is an Annett locked siding around 22om long which ends at Swanston St lx and will hold up to a 6 VL set in clear. Annett key is electrically released from the interlocking frame.  That siding is rarely used.    With the duplication would expect with 2 platforms that the existing platform will retain two way operation, and that the new North Side platform Down direction only.  Existing Queenscliff line will be extended as the new Down Line and the existing mainline will become the new Up line. Existing crossover at Down end station stays,  Existing 40kmh LH turnout on the Up side of  Yarra Street hopefully replaced with 65kmh  LH turnout to the new second platform. Whether the 220m siding on the South side is retained who knows.  Word is the whole thing will be done with TPWS and 3 position signalling right through to Waurn Ponds, as the current mix of 3 and 2 position light signalling is too confusing, also the falling gradient into Marshall and a history of several SPADS there.
Currently the Queenscliff line is used in the regulat Weekday 20 minute Off Peak cycle with alternate trains terminating at South Geelong and the Ponds  thus  :  Terminated Down Sth Geelong on Queenscliff line, then comes Up Ponds, followed immediately by Down Ponds, the the set in the Queenscliff Line comes out and forms an Up Sgr which crosses the next Dn Sgr between North Geelong and geelong , on arrival Sth Geelong gets put away on the Queenscliff line then the whole cycle repeats itself . At peak times some South Geelong shorts do an immediate turnaround at the platform, and at other times they are put away on the Queenscliff line and returnedto Geelong Ety Cars as the flow of Down passess tp The Ponds and Marshall permits.
kuldalai

The north siding is pretty ratty looking, but it exists which is always a handy thing. When Marshall station first opened I asked the dude in the office why it was there and not somewhere closer to my place (all rail projects are about me, of course) in Grovedale. He said that it was flat so trains didn't need brakes (or something like that) and apparently there was a station there back in the day so wasn't considered to be a greenfields project or something along those lines.

With the 2nd platform at SthG and the line duplicated to the breakwater Bridge and then again on the other side of Waurn Ponds Creek what it the justification for keeping and even improving that siding on the south side? I can only recall seeing it used once or twice over the years, but with duplication taking the north siding out of action for parking it might be required in the future.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
'.... it might be required in the future  ....'
Quick, pull it up ............
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Also note some further details on the Geelong to WP section https://www.railpage.com.au/f-p2219160.htm#2219160

There was a story on Geelong Fast Rail behind the Herald Sun and Geelong Addy paywall yesterday. Any idea what it was?

Interesting about the phased duplication between the Tunnel and WP, but given the seeming inability for governments all both stripes to do a nice, big-picture upgrade I'll take what they'll do rather than hope for a better solution that never arrives. In any case picking this piece of low hanging fruit puts other low hanging fruit like the bridges over the Barwon River and WP creek into view.

Does South Geelong still have 2 sidings in the yard? The long one on the north side of the rack and the short one on the south side of the track? If so will this get more use with the duplication?
South Geelong has a siding on the North side the remnant of the former Queenscliff line extending as far East as Garden Street.  Will hold 3 cars on the Up side of Swanston St & a 6 and a 3 on the Down side.  Access to and from the platform by crossover and fixed signals operated from the South Geelong frame.  Just off the platform on the South side is an Annett locked siding around 22om long which ends at Swanston St lx and will hold up to a 6 VL set in clear. Annett key is electrically released from the interlocking frame.  That siding is rarely used.    With the duplication would expect with 2 platforms that the existing platform will retain two way operation, and that the new North Side platform Down direction only.  Existing Queenscliff line will be extended as the new Down Line and the existing mainline will become the new Up line. Existing crossover at Down end station stays,  Existing 40kmh LH turnout on the Up side of  Yarra Street hopefully replaced with 65kmh  LH turnout to the new second platform. Whether the 220m siding on the South side is retained who knows.  Word is the whole thing will be done with TPWS and 3 position signalling right through to Waurn Ponds, as the current mix of 3 and 2 position light signalling is too confusing, also the falling gradient into Marshall and a history of several SPADS there.
Currently the Queenscliff line is used in the regulat Weekday 20 minute Off Peak cycle with alternate trains terminating at South Geelong and the Ponds  thus  :  Terminated Down Sth Geelong on Queenscliff line, then comes Up Ponds, followed immediately by Down Ponds, the the set in the Queenscliff Line comes out and forms an Up Sgr which crosses the next Dn Sgr between North Geelong and geelong , on arrival Sth Geelong gets put away on the Queenscliff line then the whole cycle repeats itself . At peak times some South Geelong shorts do an immediate turnaround at the platform, and at other times they are put away on the Queenscliff line and returnedto Geelong Ety Cars as the flow of Down passess tp The Ponds and Marshall permits.

The north siding is pretty ratty looking, but it exists which is always a handy thing. When Marshall station first opened I asked the dude in the office why it was there and not somewhere closer to my place (all rail projects are about me, of course) in Grovedale. He said that it was flat so trains didn't need brakes (or something like that) and apparently there was a station there back in the day so wasn't considered to be a greenfields project or something along those lines.

With the 2nd platform at SthG and the line duplicated to the breakwater Bridge and then again on the other side of Waurn Ponds Creek what it the justification for keeping and even improving that siding on the south side? I can only recall seeing it used once or twice over the years, but with duplication taking the north siding out of action for parking it might be required in the future.
Riain
The only reason to keep the 220m long Annett locked siding on the South side at South Geelong is so that you can put a footy train there on AFL match days. Then  immediately after a match you have a train originate each of The Ponds, Marshall and South Geelong in quick succession clears say 1500 people within 10 mins on the Up.  Siding would be motorized and fully signalled as the existing mechanical frame at South Geelong will go with the duplication project.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
What would be the scope of works for a future project to duplicate the Geelong - South Geelong section ?

A second tunnel bore or enlarged existing bore.

Would the opportunity be taken to grade separate McKillop Street (Bellarine Highway) and maybe Kilgour Street while their at It.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

What would be the scope of works for a future project to duplicate the Geelong - South Geelong section ?

A second tunnel bore or enlarged existing bore.

Would the opportunity be taken to grade separate McKillop Street (Bellarine Highway) and maybe Kilgour Street while their at It.
Nightfire
The existing tunnel is near life expired with restricted internal clearance and reason for current severe speed limits 40kmh for Pass and 25kmh for Goods.

Most likely two new bores by tunneling machines short cutting andf coming out on the Down side of Kilgour Street , eliminating  elimiating existing level crossings at Mc Killop Street and Kilgour Street, and also allowing the former level crossing at Maude Street to be re-opened as the rail reserve between the existing tunnel mouth and Kilgour Street can then become a sealed bicycle path.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
The existing tunnel is near life expired with restricted internal clearance and reason for current severe speed limits 40kmh for Pass and 25kmh for Goods.

Most likely two new bores by tunneling machines short cutting andf coming out on the Down side of Kilgour Street , eliminating  elimiating existing level crossings at Mc Killop Street and Kilgour Street, and also allowing the former level crossing at Maude Street to be re-opened as the rail reserve between the existing tunnel mouth and Kilgour Street can then become a sealed bicycle path.
kuldalai
Sounds extensive !

Level crossing removal would have to be used as one of the main bargaining chips, to justify the potential cost.
  jakar Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
It appears people are using different ways to describe the sidings at South Geelong. The official siding names are as follows:

No.1 Rd - The track through the platform, otherwise known as the mainline

Siding A - This is the siding directly opposite the platform on the North side between Yarra St LX and the points at the down end of the platform leading to siding B (see below). Standing room of 238m. Rarely used as regular loco run arounds are no longer performed here. It cannot be accessed in the down direction.

Siding B - Again this is located on the North side of the mainline between siding A and the Swanston St LX (think of the points as the divider between sidings A and B). It is accessed via the points on the down side of South Geelong platform and has a standing room of 115m. Vehicles use siding B to access siding A. Regularly used to hold a terminating 3 car Vlocity to clear No.1 Rd for through services.

Queenscliff Siding - This is the extension of siding B but on the down side of the Swanston St LX. Regularly used for anything larger than a 3 car Vlocity as per siding B. It has a standing room of 438m.

Goods Siding - Located on the South side on the mainline at the down end of the platform. The siding is not signaled and is accessed via Annett Locked points. It has a standing room of 206m. Rarely used except in emergency or when siding B or the Queenscliff Siding is booked out.
  Riain Locomotive Fireman

Interestingly enough because of the track work next week Vline is running a couple of trains to Werribee to allow commuters to get Metros into Southern Cross. The timetable looks to be less than 1h25m despite the considerable time at Werribee for the changeover.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Interestingly enough because of the track work next week Vline is running a couple of trains to Werribee to allow commuters to get Metros into Southern Cross. The timetable looks to be less than 1h25m despite the considerable time at Werribee for the changeover.
Riain
Please  link to  VLP   Altered timetable for that period, cant find on their website  ?
  Riain Locomotive Fireman

Interestingly enough because of the track work next week Vline is running a couple of trains to Werribee to allow commuters to get Metros into Southern Cross. The timetable looks to be less than 1h25m despite the considerable time at Werribee for the changeover.
Please  link to  VLP   Altered timetable for that period, cant find on their website  ?
kuldalai

https://www.vline.com.au/getattachment/d8b49ba8-8cde-4f49-a026-758958064d62/Geelong-WBL-temporary-timetable-17-to-25-July

I Ctrl-F'd "metro" to find these services.

They're not much longer in total journey times to a lot of RRL services.
  Tony M. Locomotive Driver

The "coaches will not stop at Footscray" is a bit of a surprise - often Footscray is the only suburban pick-up point for Geelong bustitution. Some of those evening times blowing out to close to two hours won't be popular when the regular all-bus replacements run at just over an hour.
  Riain Locomotive Fireman

I received a notification that test bores are being drilled along the route between Werribee and Laverton in preparation for the Geelong fast rail project, compete with pictures of the drill with the rail line in the background.  Can test bores dug now be used as data in ~8 years time, or does the data go stale in a year or two indicating the intention to begin construction work sooner rather than later?
  Riain Locomotive Fireman

I asked and they told me the intention is to start construction in 2023.

So it looks like I will be able to ride it before i retire! Very Happy
  Gauntlet Chief Commissioner

Location:
Since the lockdown is over I decided to have a look at Waurn Ponds and take some photos.

https://flic.kr/p/2me1iW7


https://flic.kr/p/2mdVsi6


https://flic.kr/p/2mdZ9hN

[url=https://flic.kr/p/2mdZ9hN][img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51342775126_1d27173e5b_k.jpg[/img][/url]

https://flic.kr/p/2me5nnu[url=https://flic.kr/p/2mdVsj3]

https://flic.kr/p/2mdVsj3
  Tii Junior Train Controller

I asked and they told me the intention is to start construction in 2023.

So it looks like I will be able to ride it before i retire! Very Happy
Riain
Well that's hopeful- you'd think with bore holes now, planning into 2022- that they could start work late 2022 once money is allocated in the budgets. Things seem to move slowly in Victoria times. Hopefully I get to ride it to one day.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
I asked and they told me the intention is to start construction in 2023.

So it looks like I will be able to ride it before i retire! Very Happy
Well that's hopeful- you'd think with bore holes now, planning into 2022- that they could start work late 2022 once money is allocated in the budgets. Things seem to move slowly in Victoria times. Hopefully I get to ride it to one day.
Tii
Its the old "project manager" vs "management" argument.

WHY AREN'T YOU BUILDING YET?

Planning takes a lot of time and money. If you don't do it right, the result is a dogs breakfast that has to be re-done at double the cost.

A lesson that Victoria Big Build have taken to heart.

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