The corona virus COVID-19

 
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Thousands of protesters in Melbourne CBD today. Flares, jostling of police, spitting, few masks, outside the 5 km from home and outside the reasons to be away from home no doubt.
Massive number of arrests - SIX.
The remaining squillion must have been either Labor voters or furniture removalists.
Only mugs obey the law here in Wictoria.

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  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Today's Sydney protesters might be getting a visit/summons soon...
Carnot
A lot of them appeared to be doing the H****r salute, which could be enough to establish it meets the legal definition of terrorism and therefore allow the police to put them away for 6 weeks with no right of appeal.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

And preferably send them off to an offshore detention facility too.  Finally some taxpayer value-for-money from those super-expensive facilities.

Won't happen though.
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
A similar swarm of Morons were planning the same here in Adelaide but the coppers put a Stop to that, quick smart and good on em.

https://www.facebook.com/7NEWSAdelaide/videos/1335761920151124/

One of those high pressure water canon trucks like they have over sea's would not be out of the question to help control these type of public menaces.

BigShunter.
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
A lot of them appeared to be doing the H****r salute, which could be enough to establish it meets the legal definition of terrorism and therefore allow the police to put them away for 6 weeks with no right of appeal.
justapassenger
Do you actually take a moment to think about what the hell you're posting?

Using anti-terrorism legislation, in a manner in which it was never intended, as judge-jury-executioner punishment against someone whose only crime is to disobey a lockdown order by attending a protest about that very lockdown order. Strewth, I'd hate to see your response to something serious like, maybe stealing your car. I reckon you'd be calling for the perp to be disemboweled and dismembered! You sound like Mark McGowan and his "This G2G pass is great, we're gonna keep it after Covid's over. We will decide who comes in to our state and the manner in which they come!" *

The fact the rozzers, et al are so up in arms over these protests show just how important they are...No matter the environment, a person should always have the right to protest against a Government decision they disagree with. If you've been arrested/convicted, that measure is through the court of appeal and eventually through to the High Court. If you disagree with legislation, you can lobby your MP and protest on the steps of parliament so long as you are not causing a hinderance or nuisance.

My question is "What is the lawful means to protest against this lockdown?!" And by that I refer you to the Victorian Police arresting a pregnant woman whose only crime was...."incitement"...meaning she was planning a protest against Victoria's lockdown. When you cannot even plan a protest without it being declared illegal, being arrested etc, we have a serious problem with Governance in this country...

*Paraphrased slightly, but the point is still the same
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: Standing at the limit of an endless ocean
No, it's pure alarmism.
Wot, just like some twit saying that we'll all be living in grass yurts soon?
Nah that's the Greens that want to do that.
Nah it's YOU saying that it will happen.
Please, this is for the discussion of one particular type of fascist authoritarianism from our various state-based little Hitlers disguised as 'public health' - if you want to talk about the type of little Hitler that wants to deprive ordinary people of access to gas and electricity then there's another thread entirely for those people.
don_dunstan
No, I want to talk about YOUR double standards.

For the uninitiated, don_dunstan is our resident Master of Inadequacy. After being called out, he then tries to deflect in a typically weak manner, but cannot hide from his ineptitude.

don, the subject matter is irrelevant. Dismissing someone's words as alarmist simply because you don't agree with them, while maintaining a strong track record of more frivolous claims, exposes your double standards as well as your incapacity to carry out critical analysis.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
No, I want to talk about YOUR double standards.

For the uninitiated, don_dunstan is our resident Master of Inadequacy. After being called out, he then tries to deflect in a typically weak manner, but cannot hide from his ineptitude.

don, the subject matter is irrelevant. Dismissing someone's words as alarmist simply because you don't agree with them, while maintaining a strong track record of more frivolous claims, exposes your double standards as well as your incapacity to carry out critical analysis.
DirtyBallast
So you don't actually have a counter-propositional argument to address my contention that health systems won't collapse under the weight of COVID19 patients; you're just here to complain.

Got it.
  Divine3801 Station Master

A lot of them appeared to be doing the H****r salute, which could be enough to establish it meets the legal definition of terrorism and therefore allow the police to put them away for 6 weeks with no right of appeal.
Do you actually take a moment to think about what the hell you're posting?

Using anti-terrorism legislation, in a manner in which it was never intended, as judge-jury-executioner punishment against someone whose only crime is to disobey a lockdown order by attending a protest about that very lockdown order. Strewth, I'd hate to see your response to something serious like, maybe stealing your car. I reckon you'd be calling for the perp to be disemboweled and dismembered! You sound like Mark McGowan and his "This G2G pass is great, we're gonna keep it after Covid's over. We will decide who comes in to our state and the manner in which they come!" *

The fact the rozzers, et al are so up in arms over these protests show just how important they are...No matter the environment, a person should always have the right to protest against a Government decision they disagree with. If you've been arrested/convicted, that measure is through the court of appeal and eventually through to the High Court. If you disagree with legislation, you can lobby your MP and protest on the steps of parliament so long as you are not causing a hinderance or nuisance.

My question is "What is the lawful means to protest against this lockdown?!" And by that I refer you to the Victorian Police arresting a pregnant woman whose only crime was...."incitement"...meaning she was planning a protest against Victoria's lockdown. When you cannot even plan a protest without it being declared illegal, being arrested etc, we have a serious problem with Governance in this country...

*Paraphrased slightly, but the point is still the same
KRviator


KRviator is definitely correct on this.

Despite all my previous posts of alarm and doing all that is necessary to stop the outbreak from getting worse, including these anti lockdown protests that should not happen, when it comes to the scope of necessary public health orders to stop COVID from spreading, unfortunately, the reality of our democratic society still carries a huge risk where Governments do go too far with powers they are given sometimes and protesting is one of the most effective ways for people to speak up against it.

There are multiple views and opinions to form from it, I know for sure it will be difficult, if it leads to a significant cluster of positive cases, especially if they aren't vaccinated. Worst of all, is that even if symptomatic, they are very unlikely to go get tested.

However, amongst the loud, illogical and incoherent shouting, there are plenty of people in there that have undeniably, undeniably have had their lives altered in a path that is very uncertain and frightening, lockdown means they have lost their jobs, then it means no income to support paying bills, food, rent etc.

That doesn't mean we should completely blame the State Governments who enacted these public health orders, it shows that society continues to have a major struggle because despite what we proclaim, whether it's those in the protests, those who dont' or those in charge of looking after the wellbeing of society, there still continues to be the major issue where not only people are left in poverty, they aren't being represented, and despite correcting all those mistakes to ensure they are well supported, there will still be those who aren't satisfied with a fair and reasonable solution that is offered to them.

Remember, we are all in this mess from the start because the Federal Government refused to take any responsibility to protect our national borders and providing facilities, resources and/or even land to safely keep it contained which has culminated into multiple failures, due to political influence, to which has ultimately led us to these needless scenarios, necessitating lockdown.

In reference to comments to justapassenger, please look into the situation with a youtube commentator friendlyjordies.

Friendlyjordies is a regular youtube commentator who frequently criticizes and comments on NSW political subjects. Recently the NSW police Counter terrorism fixated persons unit arrested his associate/colleague Kristo Langker, claiming he committed offenses of “stalk or intimidate intending to cause fear of physical or mental harm”.

They were sued for defamation by the Deputy Premier over comments they made about his conduct, but in their claims and what they filmed, the party of friendlyjordies state that they were denied requests of document contents outlining the lawsuit against them and continued to have errors in the documents they received that affected the lawsuit e.g. (incorrect address)

The incident of Kristo Langker being arrested was over the alleged incident as mentioned above that he attempted to approach the Deputy Premier with the documents in an attempt to hand them over for correction and Mr. Barilaro simply just ignored him and left in his car.

That same day, detectives from NSW police’s fixated persons unit arrested Kristo and stormed his home while detaining him claiming he was concealing evidence.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXtq4a8829g

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/jun/14/friendlyjordies-jordan-shanks-producer-charged-allegedly-stalking-john-barilaro



In the past I have had to deal with situations where I photographed stations from pedestrian walkways and have been confronted by Protective Services Officers who refused to explain to me why it is against the law to take pictures of stations and trains. They have claimed "I dont need to explain", "It's the station staff's view" and even "terrorism"

What is worse of their demands is their intimidation and pressure to delete pictures I take. The pictures contain railway stations and rollingstock, photographed from public areas where any citizen can walk through.

I have had two encounters of this aggressive and intimidating nature, I haven't encountered this with police as of yet, only those with guarding stations at night but that does not mean it doesn't happen. In fact abuse of power does happen, and it needs to be exposed which in many cases always continues to be a struggle.


In regards to the public health orders, they are definitely in the direction of protecting society's well being. The protests are wrong, of the individuals, but they highlight the issues in society. Also, they are important to remind the Government of their accountability to the citizens.

The best outcome is that they dont protest and there will be no risk of setting off another cluster. But if they don't, power that is given to the politicians holding majority government runs a major risk of being abused and overreached if they are emboldened that nobody questions their approach.
( Such as will they continue to enact them at anytime or use it to silence people after the pandemic is well and truly past us )

It may not be current governments who will abuse and misuse their power, which starts with deliberately re-interpreting legislation to their political agendas, but they dont last forever, politicians retire or end their tenure when other candidates convince more of the voters to vote for them, and we all know how difficult it is to find someone who is consistent with promises and to be reasonable with what they do.


The charge of incitement is a major problem, when they call for protests, not violence, not vandalism, but to march and speak out they insist on being able to rally for their voices to be heard and keep the balance of power between citizen and government. That is the citizens entrust you, the government with the power that we vote you in to administer the functions of government for the benefit and wellbeing of the society to which you have the privilege to lead. Once those in power are able to arrest, charge and imprison with re-interpretations that are not legislated for that purpose we end up in a situation where inevitably, governments are able to dictate as they decide.

This is why we have courts independent of government influence, where appeals can be heard, and interpret the charges and penalties imposed based on the legislation that is punished or applied on the one appealing.

Early on in the pandemic, legal professionals had spoken about the matter, when it comes to restricting people's freedom of movement. They summarized that the governments decision to enact lockdown was correct to prevent loss of life and that is true to this day, as it is a state of emergency

Simply being able to redefine the interpretation to which it is not intended, I would say is very significant in nullifying the role and purpose of the legal system and the courts in it's function to continue to struggle to protect and maintain a democratic and free society. This is why every little thing law enforcement charge you with always remind you that you have the option to appeal in court.

Charging people with terrorism in an anti lockdown protest will have a chilling effect on democratic society, most notably, imposing penalties upon them equivalent to those that would be against someone who was planning a terrorist attack using weapons designed to maim, kill and commit mass murder.

Then, when society witnesses this approach, and even if courts deem it a charge that cannot be held against defendant. The Public Health Response by Government will be in deep trouble. Because suddenly, everyone forms the view that COVID Pandemic Response is being used as a cover, to in fact, impose through the directions of the Chief Health Officers a dictatorship on society.

So when you look at it from this view, from where I see on this perspective, the first thing it will do is provoke even more protests fearing their society is being dismantled for a dictator.

Do not make the statements to immediately charge people protesting lockdown with terrorism, that is definitely worse than the pandemic and is a threat to the democratic functions of our society. While it may work to drive common sense and eliminate the risk, in the long term the precedent it sets will bear the terrible cost of what we can freely do, or, even speak about.
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

Can’t improve on this gem.

  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
I've been around long enough to know that a large section of the protesters are 'rent a crowd' who turn up at any opportunity to stick it up to law enforcement and any other authority figure or agency.

Quite often, genuine planned protests are hijacked by rent a crowd and therefore lose their purpose as being seen as a typical anti-authority event. We've all seen them. People who resemble Neanderthals, covered in tatts with a weird and threatening appearance who seem to only join the protest due to not wishing to control their anger, testosterone and/or adrenaline.

Besides the gathering, particularly in Sydney, which due to Gladys' hubris about not locking down weeks ago and her early statement about only wearing face masks on PT was doomed to fail...was definitely a potential super spreader event, which in all likelihood will extend the Sydney lockdown anyway.

The Melbourne protest was completely pointless as restrictions will likely ease this week.

Mike.
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
Definately no value protesting in Melbourne.   Dan doesn't listen to anyone who isn't in a union.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
Definately no value protesting in Melbourne.   Dan doesn't listen to anyone who isn't in a union.
Donald

Load of cr@p.

Another fan of the Murdoch media Question

M.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Definately no value protesting in Melbourne.   Dan doesn't listen to anyone who isn't in a union.

Load of cr@p.

Another fan of the Murdoch media Question

M.
The Vinelander
Anyone who doesn't agree with me = fan of the Murdoch media.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
Definately no value protesting in Melbourne.   Dan doesn't listen to anyone who isn't in a union.

Load of cr@p.

Another fan of the Murdoch media Question

M.
Anyone who doesn't agree with me = fan of the Murdoch media.
don_dunstan


Agreed, for once...as I'm well known and stated many times as not being a fan in any way of the Murdoch media.

M.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
NSW has recorded 141 new local cases of coronavirus and two deaths overnight, including a woman in her 30s with no pre-existing medical conditions.
The other death was a woman in her 70s from Sydney’s south west.
The daily infection number is a slight drop from 163 cases yesterday.
NSW also broke a testing record, with more than 100,000 swabs taken yesterday.
Of the 141 new cases, 38 were infectious in the community.
  lsrailfan Minister for Railways

Location: Somewhere you're not
No, I want to talk about YOUR double standards.

For the uninitiated, don_dunstan is our resident Master of Inadequacy. After being called out, he then tries to deflect in a typically weak manner, but cannot hide from his ineptitude.

don, the subject matter is irrelevant. Dismissing someone's words as alarmist simply because you don't agree with them, while maintaining a strong track record of more frivolous claims, exposes your double standards as well as your incapacity to carry out critical analysis.
So you don't actually have a counter-propositional argument to address my contention that health systems won't collapse under the weight of COVID19 patients; you're just here to complain.

Got it.
If the lockdowns were not in place, the Health System would collapse yes, currently there are 141 being treated in hospital with the virus, 43 in ICU, 18 of those require ventilation, believe it or not, this virus outbreak is still relatively small, we do have harsh lockdowns up here now, had there been no lockdowns, the health system would collapse

Got it??
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
If the lockdowns were not in place, the Health System would collapse yes, currently there are 141 being treated in hospital with the virus, 43 in ICU, 18 of those require ventilation, believe it or not, this virus outbreak is still relatively small, we do have harsh lockdowns up here now, had there been no lockdowns, the health system would collapse

Got it??
lsrailfan
So the NSW hospital system must regularly collapse every flu season then?

2017 Flu Season NSW
9330 hospitalised
593 children aged 0-4 hospitalised
360 ICU admissions
653 deaths
5 deaths in children aged 0-14

So over nine thousand people were hospitalised in that unremarkable flu season - yet the hospital system did not collapse. If you're going to make those extraordinary claims you need to at least have a shred of evidence to back it up, not just presumption or opinion.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Agreed, for once...as I'm well known and stated many times as not being a fan in any way of the Murdoch media.

M.
The Vinelander
I have an ability to read information from a variety of sources including Murdoch, Fairfax/Nine and the ABC and then I make up my mind myself as to whether or not its correct. You should try it sometime.
  lsrailfan Minister for Railways

Location: Somewhere you're not
If the lockdowns were not in place, the Health System would collapse yes, currently there are 141 being treated in hospital with the virus, 43 in ICU, 18 of those require ventilation, believe it or not, this virus outbreak is still relatively small, we do have harsh lockdowns up here now, had there been no lockdowns, the health system would collapse

Got it??
So the NSW hospital system must regularly collapse every flu season then?

2017 Flu Season NSW
9330 hospitalised
593 children aged 0-4 hospitalised
360 ICU admissions
653 deaths
5 deaths in children aged 0-14

So over nine thousand people were hospitalised in that unremarkable flu season - yet the hospital system did not collapse. If you're going to make those extraordinary claims you need to at least have a shred of evidence to back it up, not just presumption or opinion.
don_dunstan
Nope, had the exact same thing occurred with this Delta strain, the above would have been exacerbated by a lot worse,

care to come back at me with a response?
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: Standing at the limit of an endless ocean
One of the deaths today was a woman in her 30's with NO PRE-EXISTING CONDITIONS:

COVID live updates: Gladys Berejiklian gives NSW coronavirus update; dozens charged over Sydney anti-lockdown protest - ABC News

There's a dagger in the heart of don the denier...but he'll deny it.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
One of the deaths today was a woman in her 30's with NO PRE-EXISTING CONDITIONS:

COVID live updates: Gladys Berejiklian gives NSW coronavirus update; dozens charged over Sydney anti-lockdown protest - ABC News

There's a dagger in the heart of don the denier...but he'll deny it.
DirtyBallast
She died with a positive PCR test is the only established fact. Unless an autopsy is conducted AND made public then there's no way to verify that she had no pre-existing condition that killed her.

"Don the denier" - LOL. Hysterical much?
Nope, had the exact same thing occurred with this Delta strain, the above would have been exacerbated by a lot worse, care to come back at me with a response?
Israilfan
You're not an epidemiologist (neither am I for that matter) - so you don't know. It's just your opinion.
  lsrailfan Minister for Railways

Location: Somewhere you're not
One of the deaths today was a woman in her 30's with NO PRE-EXISTING CONDITIONS:

COVID live updates: Gladys Berejiklian gives NSW coronavirus update; dozens charged over Sydney anti-lockdown protest - ABC News

There's a dagger in the heart of don the denier...but he'll deny it.
She died with a positive PCR test is the only established fact. Unless an autopsy is conducted AND made public then there's no way to verify that she had no pre-existing condition that killed her.

"Don the denier" - LOL. Hysterical much?
Nope, had the exact same thing occurred with this Delta strain, the above would have been exacerbated by a lot worse, care to come back at me with a response?
You're not an epidemiologist (neither am I for that matter) - so you don't know. It's just your opinion.
don_dunstan
Again nope, it is FACT, COVID-19 is not the Flu, it is 5% more deadly than the Flu, if there were no lockdown's, it would make the 2017 season look like a picnic.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Do you actually take a moment to think about what the hell you're posting?

Using anti-terrorism legislation, in a manner in which it was never intended, as judge-jury-executioner punishment against someone whose only crime is to disobey a lockdown order by attending a protest about that very lockdown order. Strewth, I'd hate to see your response to something serious like, maybe stealing your car. I reckon you'd be calling for the perp to be disemboweled and dismembered! You sound like Mark McGowan and his "This G2G pass is great, we're gonna keep it after Covid's over. We will decide who comes in to our state and the manner in which they come!" *

The fact the rozzers, et al are so up in arms over these protests show just how important they are...No matter the environment, a person should always have the right to protest against a Government decision they disagree with. If you've been arrested/convicted, that measure is through the court of appeal and eventually through to the High Court. If you disagree with legislation, you can lobby your MP and protest on the steps of parliament so long as you are not causing a hinderance or nuisance.

My question is "What is the lawful means to protest against this lockdown?!" And by that I refer you to the Victorian Police arresting a pregnant woman whose only crime was...."incitement"...meaning she was planning a protest against Victoria's lockdown. When you cannot even plan a protest without it being declared illegal, being arrested etc, we have a serious problem with Governance in this country...

*Paraphrased slightly, but the point is still the same
KRviator
Thank-you for possibly one of the best posts that I've ever read on this board - it really surmised the issues well.

The sheer amount of fear being generated by this thing is really extraordinary, I've never seen anything like it in my life. That fear has been utilised really well by those in charge to get compliance and 'right-thinking' with people - to the point where a protest that I think really is quite legitimate (or just as legitimate as the Black Lives Matter ones anyway) attracts the wrath of people on this board whom I'm guessing would normally classify themselves as 'progressive' or 'humanist'. I mean, using anti-terror legislation against protesters - really? Why? Because you don't agree with them? They were marching around city centers that were mostly closed down due to COVID19 lock-downs anyway - who were they hurting?

And the police trawling Facebook in order to arrest someone who was sympathetic to the idea of a protest against lock-down was a real low point - harks back to the days of Joh Bjelke-Petersen declaring the union movement illegal and making any legitimate protests about his government illegal. We really are on the slippery slope to totalitarian government once you start removing the right of people to speak out.

As Ben Franklin said, people who want to trade their liberties for security deserve neither.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Again nope, it is FACT, COVID-19 is not the Flu, it is 5% more deadly than the Flu, if there were no lockdown's, it would make the 2017 season look like a picnic.
lsrailfan
Okay, let me bring in some FACTS at this point (note the all-caps!). They've let most restrictions in the UK relax in the last week so this is probably a similar per-existing situation to our one here in Australia.

As of 24/7/2021 (yesterday) the UK is running at 45,000 new cases and 55 deaths per day with a positive PCR test.

That's a case fatality rate of 0.12% (similar to influenza) and as with those findings in the United States the vast majority of deaths in the UK are with people over 85, morbidly obese, respiratory or immunological compromised.

This case figure of 45,000 doesn't include the potentially tens of thousands of Britons who are asymptomatic or only mildly displaying symptoms who don't bother getting tested and hence aren't counted as a 'case'.

The actual mortality rate for young healthy people is about 0.02%.

All this adds up to a public health system that is in no way being 'over-run' with COVID19 cases - at least for the moment (this could change in the future I'll admit).
  lsrailfan Minister for Railways

Location: Somewhere you're not
I will be getting my A-Z Vaccine on Tuesday up at my local medical centre, I originally was going to get Pfizer because of the shorter gap between jabs, but after looking around and making some enquiries, Pfizer wasn't readily available, I am looking forward to it actually.

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