Mildura passenger service

 
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Could an Xplorer do the job and could Victoria get access to several for a good price ?

What would the explorers be doing if they remained in NSW ?
freightgate

They probably could get them for cheap and if I'm Gladys I would take whatever Vic wants for them. There are only going to be a few endeavours held for backup purposes on the hunter rail line. Aside from that all the Xplorers will be available if Victoria want them for such services. They have dining built in to them already and much more comfortable seats then anything else in Victoria.

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  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia

They probably could get them for cheap and if I'm Gladys I would take whatever Vic wants for them. There are only going to be a few endeavours held for backup purposes on the hunter rail line. Aside from that all the Xplorers will be available if Victoria want them for such services. They have dining built in to them already and much more comfortable seats then anything else in Victoria.
simstrain

I am sure @freightgate would love the idea of dinning but that seems like a good idea.  Makes a lot of sense or if Vic does not want these units then maybe SA could grab some for services to the east and also Port Augusta?
  Djebel Junior Train Controller

Same problem as a Velocity, too many level crossings without lights & bells.  You need loco powered service.
Is it the speed of the Vlocity that restricts it's use at these crossings? Why is a loco better for those lines? Just asking as it's often mentioned but I never understand why.
Tii
DMUs in Victoria are speed restricted when approaching/crossing uncontrolled level crossings, for driver safety.  Locomotives do not face these restrictions, because a 130 ton N class will act as a battering ram and smash any obstruction out of the way.

That's the reasoning, anyway.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Same problem as a Velocity, too many level crossings without lights & bells.  You need loco powered service.

I think this is more of a Vline laziness reason then a reason with any factual relevance. It's not like the Mildura line is of high quality and at 80 km/h an Xplorer would be no more dangerous then a loco hauled fleet and in fact it might be safer since it will have better braking capabilities. How hard is it to put up some LED crossing lights with a solar panel and battery for power at some of these crossings anyway.
simstrain
Just "thinking" doesn't make it so.

How hard is a bunch of solar pannels and LED.?  
Try adding the detectors and signalling required. We're heading towards $200k a pop.
Now muliply that by 125, the number of un-protected crossings.

The track is class 3, that is 100kph for passenger. The speed needed for a respectable journey time.

DMU of any description vs big trucks, are unsafe for drivers at any speed above 60 , especially when confronted with an un-protected crossing.

Now do you get why XPT and Explorer are non-starters.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Could the journey not be done at 80km/h?

The Explorers would still be useful for Victoria and could be used on other routes potentially.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
The track is class 3, that is 100kph for passenger. The speed needed for a respectable journey time.
justarider
Would a N-class plus carriages be able to make a reasonable time Mildura-Maryborough though -
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
Could an Xplorer do the job and could Victoria get access to several for a good price ?

What would the explorers be doing if they remained in NSW ?
freightgate

They probably could get them for cheap and if I'm Gladys I would take whatever Vic wants for them. There are only going to be a few endeavours held for backup purposes on the hunter rail line. Aside from that all the Xplorers will be available if Victoria want them for such services. They have dining built in to them already and much more comfortable seats then anything else in Victoria.
"simstrain"



I once travelled on and gave a report on the Bathurst bullet Xplorer.

Hard seats, like cloth over metal seats, with virtually no padding. Take Melbourne's crappiest hard seats on its worst metropolitan trains, then add a three hour journey. Dining...there's no 'dining' as you plonk your sanger and instant coffee on the drop down table for it all to fly off on the next curve.

Then add NOISE...plenty of it, far more than sitting in a V'Locity by the return air duct and you have the  experience of travelling in an Xplorer.

Is it any wonder they are off to the recyclers in a few years...and it is a few years. NSW isn't even introducing its new country fleet until 2025.

Mike.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Don't mention noise and trains around @freightgate
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
Could the journey not be done at 80km/h?

The Explorers would still be useful for Victoria and could be used on other routes potentially.
bevans

What 'other routes' Question

What did these unfortunate Victorian's do to deserve these NSW cast-offs. The last time we took NSW reject rolling stock we ended up with 2 lemons, one of which is now at Daylesford.

Mike.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
Could the journey not be done at 80km/h?

The Explorers would still be useful for Victoria and could be used on other routes potentially.
bevans
Why not just build a few more velocities for the Seymour Line and cascade the surplus Sprinters for Mildura Services?


Michael
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
The track is class 3, that is 100kph for passenger. The speed needed for a respectable journey time.
Would a N-class plus carriages be able to make a reasonable time Mildura-Maryborough though -
don_dunstan
The fruity does Mildura/Maryborough in 8:08 hrs. That includes 45 min layover at Donald, and  a couple of other 5min rests.

So @ 80kph, regular run time about 7:15 hrs. Does that answer your question @bevans.?

However, @ 100kph, looking at shaving 1:30 hrs off that. Getting into the realm of acceptable for pax.

For comparative purposes, the v/line bus does the same run in 6:19 hrs
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Could the journey not be done at 80km/h?

The Explorers would still be useful for Victoria and could be used on other routes potentially.
Why not just build a few more velocities for the Seymour Line and cascade the surplus Sprinters for Mildura Services?


Michael
mejhammers1
1. Sprinters are a DMU with the same driver safety issues.
2. Not convertable to SG without humungous cost. A new SG v/lo would be easier.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
Lets get this straight:

Any form of DMU - Sprinter, Xplorer, Vlocity etc will be limited to 80km/h for the entire 386km journey. An N Class and N Set will be permitted to run at 100km/h. The difference in time will be well in excess of an hour rendering the whole thing pointless as it will be much slower than the current bus trip.

To remedy this would be prohibitively expensive. So DMU's are out. Understand? Not going to happen. Forget about it.

On the plus side, 4x N Class + N sets + PCJ are currently on Standard Gauge and come late next year, they will be looking for a job.

To provide a service by the end of 2022, all that will be required is a new run-around track and yard access at Mildura, remedial work to stations at St Arnaud, Donald, Birchip, Ouyen and Mildura (to begin with) and appropriately trained staff. Oh, and the requisite amount of political grand-standing.

It is achievable, so long as the powers-that-be decide that they want it to happen.




Whether or not it would be a success is another argument entirely.
  Bonzel Junior Train Controller

And what happens to all the trailable point crossing loops between Maryborough and Mildura. Because three trailable points loops were removed between Ballarat and Maryborough so as passenger services could resume and that has created problems.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Vinelander you rode on an Endeavour. The Xplorer's have the same seats as the XPT. The bathurst bullet is an Endeavour and does have hard seats.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Lets get this straight:

Any form of DMU - Sprinter, Xplorer, Vlocity etc will be limited to 80km/h for the entire 386km journey. An N Class and N Set will be permitted to run at 100km/h. The difference in time will be well in excess of an hour rendering the whole thing pointless as it will be much slower than the current bus trip.

To remedy this would be prohibitively expensive. So DMU's are out. Understand? Not going to happen. Forget about it.

On the plus side, 4x N Class + N sets + PCJ are currently on Standard Gauge and come late next year, they will be looking for a job.

To provide a service by the end of 2022, all that will be required is a new run-around track and yard access at Mildura, remedial work to stations at St Arnaud, Donald, Birchip, Ouyen and Mildura (to begin with) and appropriately trained staff. Oh, and the requisite amount of political grand-standing.

It is achievable, so long as the powers-that-be decide that they want it to happen.




Whether or not it would be a success is another argument entirely.
Gman_86
Come late next year they will be looking for a scrap yard. Fix the line and don't put a third class service on. If we can run Xplorers to broken hill at up to 145km/h then Victoria should have no issues running them or vlo's at 100km/h on this level 3 track other then for incompetance. Fix the track like it was supposed to have been done in the first place when it was re-gauged and run a dmu service and forget loco hauled crap.

Also having seen the quality of that track on videos and the fact that there is still a 80km/h speed limit on the line your argument falls on deaf ears anyway since even the n class loco's won't be doing 100km/h.

Oh and the Xplorer has run in to a semi and survived beforehand. The truck not so much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rks9W0VEyfo
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
The track is class 3, that is 100kph for passenger. The speed needed for a respectable journey time.
Would a N-class plus carriages be able to make a reasonable time Mildura-Maryborough though -
The fruity does Mildura/Maryborough in 8:08 hrs. That includes 45 min layover at Donald, and  a couple of other 5min rests.

So @ 80kph, regular run time about 7:15 hrs. Does that answer your question @bevans.?

However, @ 100kph, looking at shaving 1:30 hrs off that. Getting into the realm of acceptable for pax.

For comparative purposes, the v/line bus does the same run in 6:19 hrs
justarider
And just how much of the Mildura - Maryborough track would be cleared for 100 km/h running ?

Summer heat restrictions !
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

The track is class 3, that is 100kph for passenger. The speed needed for a respectable journey time.
Would a N-class plus carriages be able to make a reasonable time Mildura-Maryborough though -
The fruity does Mildura/Maryborough in 8:08 hrs. That includes 45 min layover at Donald, and  a couple of other 5min rests.

So @ 80kph, regular run time about 7:15 hrs. Does that answer your question @bevans.?

However, @ 100kph, looking at shaving 1:30 hrs off that. Getting into the realm of acceptable for pax.

For comparative purposes, the v/line bus does the same run in 6:19 hrs
And just how much of the Mildura - Maryborough track would be cleared for 100 km/h running ?

Summer heat restrictions !
Nightfire
The reality is that with this track maintaining line and top for safe passenger operation is very expensive both in getting the track up to higher track standard and also on an on-going maintenance basis. So realistically 80 kmh loco hauled operation is it medium term, with 65kmh between St Arnaud & Birchip where there is clay belt and both the railway and road wobble around like an ocean swell . NO  DMU operations account the outrageous number of level crossings requiring boom barriers.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
And just how much of the Mildura - Maryborough track would be cleared for 100 km/h running ?

Summer heat restrictions !
The reality is that with this track maintaining line and top for safe passenger operation is very expensive both in getting the track up to higher track standard and also on an on-going maintenance basis. So realistically 80 kmh loco hauled operation is it medium term, with 65kmh between St Arnaud & Birchip where there is clay belt and both the railway and road wobble around like an ocean swell . NO  DMU operations account the outrageous number of level crossings requiring boom barriers.
kuldalai
Thanks @kuldalai for explaining why it takes 2hr+ to do that 100km stretch. My experience is on the road, and yep a bit wobbly.

Can you confirm/refute the quality of the rest vis 100kph.? And whether the latest works are making a difference.

Heat running is always an issue, hence the fruity likes to run in the night/morning.
Shouldnt be much of a problem for passenger.
  • Up train departing 8am would avoid the heat.
  • Down train sheduled to arrive 5pm(ish) could expect an hour or so delay . Inconvenient but not so bad - on such days I would always prefer the air-con comfort.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??

Oh and the Xplorer has run in to a semi and survived beforehand. The truck not so much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rks9W0VEyfo
simstrain
The thoughts on safety have moved along a lot in the past 25 years. Apparently not so for @simstrain.

I wonder how the dozen passengers taken to hospital thought about their survival.

And WTF was the train driver thinking, approaching an un-protected crossing, at normal speed in thick fog, 150m visability.
Nanny state Vic would now have had his balls, yet according to Northerners it's all OK
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
Could the journey not be done at 80km/h?

The Explorers would still be useful for Victoria and could be used on other routes potentially.
Why not just build a few more velocities for the Seymour Line and cascade the surplus Sprinters for Mildura Services?


Michael
1. Sprinters are a DMU with the same driver safety issues.
2. Not convertable to SG without humungous cost. A new SG v/lo would be easier.
justarider
Yes, you are right. I am having a senior moment (no disrespect to seniors) and Im only 57!

Michael
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

The main route to Mildura and money better spent upgrade Bendigo - Swan Hill to Class- 2M then V/Locity Intercity 160 to Bendigo and 130 kmh beyond to Swan Hill.  Then accellerated coach connections. 3 times each way on weekdays. Then Kerang, Swan Hill and Mildura all benefit and get faster trip times.

For the other route loco hauled 3 car sg N set 3 days a week each way 80kmh Mildura to Maryborough then bg V/Locity connection to  Ballarat and Melbourne. as per Rail revival Alliance proposal.

No best speed one will get as now 80kmh as very sandy unstable base North of Ouyen .

No one drives to Mildura via Ballarat and Maryborough, they go via Ravenswood, Marong and North.  The reality the pax voted with their backsides years ago and majority travel train/ciach via Swan Hill as hours faster than old train via Donald.  That is on the rare occasion these days that VLP can get its act together and actually run a Swan Hill train, and with catering at the moment VLP seem to be incapable of staffing any Inter City buffets .
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

The main route to Mildura and money better spent upgrade Bendigo - Swan Hill to Class- 2M then V/Locity Intercity 160 to Bendigo and 130 kmh beyond to Swan Hill.  Then accellerated coach connections. 3 times each way on weekdays. Then Kerang, Swan Hill and Mildura all benefit and get faster trip times.

For the other route loco hauled 3 car sg N set 3 days a week each way 80kmh Mildura to Maryborough then bg V/Locity connection to  Ballarat and Melbourne. as per Rail revival Alliance proposal.

No best speed one will get as now 80kmh as very sandy unstable base North of Ouyen .

No one drives to Mildura via Ballarat and Maryborough, they go via Ravenswood, Marong and North.  The reality the pax voted with their backsides years ago and majority travel train/ciach via Swan Hill as hours faster than old train via Donald.  That is on the rare occasion these days that VLP can get its act together and actually run a Swan Hill train, and with catering at the moment VLP seem to be incapable of staffing any Inter City buffets .
kuldalai
I think that is a very sensible approach. So the faster transit service via Swan Hill to Mildura and the slower tourist service via Maryborough.

An upgrade to 130 kph for a V liocity will reduce the time from Bendigo to Swan Hill to 1 hour and 40 minutes. So if you have a semi express from SCS to Bendigo, a 5 minute stop over, and then 1H 40 M to Swan Hill, so a total trip of 3.5 hours. You save an hour so the total journey time to Mildura of 7.5 hours drops to 6.5 hours. Which is now competitive with driving. An overdue upgrade on the road from Swan Hill to Mildura and a more modern and spacious design of coach, with low floor disability access, can help here as well.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The thoughts on safety have moved along a lot in the past 25 years. Apparently not so for @simstrain.

I wonder how the dozen passengers taken to hospital thought about their survival.

And WTF was the train driver thinking, approaching an un-protected crossing, at normal speed in thick fog, 150m visability.
Nanny state Vic would now have had his balls, yet according to Northerners it's all OK
justarider

Then you are mistaking what I am getting at. I was not suggesting anything as such and my theory has always been to get rid of all level crossings where possible.

My first point from a previous post was that vline should fix the level crossings up instead of being lazy and doing nothing even for the freight trains that use the line currently. Whether that means some grade separation or protected crossings of which Victoria would seem to have a whole stack of with all those level crossing removals in Melbourne happening. Vline should get off it's butt and get it fixed.

My second point was that the Xplorer was strong enough to protect those inside who were injured from dying. Could you say the same about the old carriages that are behind an N class. What makes you think that the loco wouldn't derail and cause the carriages to twist and flip because of the older design. If the trains were hit from the side what makes you think a loco hauled service would be any safer then a vlo or xplorer.

My third point is that it is complete bulldust that you or vline think it might be safer behind a loco hauled service going through these crossings at 115km/h. If it ain't safe enough with an Xplorer or Vlo then it most certainly isn't safer with a loco hauled service. A loco hauled service has a significantly longer stopping distance then a DMU does and this is another consideration this rule doesn't seem to take in to account.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
The thoughts on safety have moved along a lot in the past 25 years. Apparently not so for @simstrain.

I wonder how the dozen passengers taken to hospital thought about their survival.

And WTF was the train driver thinking, approaching an un-protected crossing, at normal speed in thick fog, 150m visability.
Nanny state Vic would now have had his balls, yet according to Northerners it's all OK

Then you are mistaking what I am getting at. I was not suggesting anything as such and my theory has always been to get rid of all level crossings where possible.

My first point from a previous post was that vline should fix the level crossings up instead of being lazy and doing nothing even for the freight trains that use the line currently. Whether that means some grade separation or protected crossings of which Victoria would seem to have a whole stack of with all those level crossing removals in Melbourne happening. Vline should get off it's butt and get it fixed.

My second point was that the Xplorer was strong enough to protect those inside who were injured from dying. Could you say the same about the old carriages that are behind an N class. What makes you think that the loco wouldn't derail and cause the carriages to twist and flip because of the older design. If the trains were hit from the side what makes you think a loco hauled service would be any safer then a vlo or xplorer.

My third point is that it is complete bulldust that you or vline think it might be safer behind a loco hauled service going through these crossings at 115km/h. If it ain't safe enough with an Xplorer or Vlo then it most certainly isn't safer with a loco hauled service. A loco hauled service has a significantly longer stopping distance then a DMU does and this is another consideration this rule doesn't seem to take in to account.
simstrain
I appologise for suggesting you dont care about safety.
Just dont get how you support higher speed DMU in an environment where unprotected crossings are a fact(bane) of Australin rail.

First point.
Vline are off their but and ARE protecting LX so that v/lo can run. Warrnambool, Shepparton, Bairnsdale. Lines that actually have passengers.
125 ununprotected LX on the Mildura line, that does not have passengers.
Simple matter of priority for what is not a bottomless pit of money.

2nd point. With one horrific exception, N class have a good record of not crashing. Can't say the same for Explorer.
Kerang 2007, carriage derailed from sideways truck hit but didnt flip. N cars are very sturdy.
Many lessons learned from Kerang, including protecting the train and occupants must be the highest priority.
Never suggested either type is safer from a sideways whack, especially if it happens to be the buffet car, but staying upright helped.

3rd point. And those unproteced crossings that permit 115kph would be ???
There were a dozen on the Warrnabool line that were speed restricted, but as mentioned above they are now fixed. Same story on other lines.
IF passenger returns to Mildura, the point has been made many times that it won't be fast.

Final point, using loco haul is for some degree of protection for the train driver.
The unlucky sod in a car/ truck that is in the way, is dead unless he/she jumps out.

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