Infrastructure Victoria - 30 Year Blueprint

 
  Carnot Minister for Railways

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  Carnot Minister for Railways

A bit more detail in this document:
https://www.infrastructurevictoria.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Major-Transport-Program-Capital-Cost-Report.pdf

Some standouts:
- HCMTs eventually to run to Waurn Ponds.
- Upfield to Roxburgh Park track rebuilt and electrified.
- OMR to be built as road only initially, although Feds might pitch in with rail line later.
- Electrification to Mt Atkinson (near Rockbank).
  Lachlan's Train Channel Junior Train Controller

Location: probably taking a photo of 7901V
- Electrification to Mt Atkinson (near Rockbank).
Carnot
Why in the blue hell wouldn't they just electrify to Melton?
  Carnot Minister for Railways

- Electrification to Mt Atkinson (near Rockbank).
Why in the blue hell wouldn't they just electrify to Melton?
Lachlan's Train Channel
Yeah, boggles the mind....
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Another large and expensive document which the cynic in me says will be dead and buried within five years.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Another large and expensive document which the cynic in me says will be dead and buried within five years.
Valvegear
The cynic in me says the place will be an economic basket-case unable to pay for any of it.
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
- Electrification to Mt Atkinson (near Rockbank).
Why in the blue hell wouldn't they just electrify to Melton?
Lachlan's Train Channel
This is only a recommendation to Government. They are suggesting electrifying to Beveridge, when the long-term plan is to go though to Wallan, similarly it suggests to somewhere in the Rockbank area when the Western Rail plan has always been to go through to Melton, as evidenced by the work done on the Ballarat regional revival to allow for another track pair as far as Melton.
IV don't appear to take any notice of what proposals or plans are already being looked into; e.g. WRP, Wallan, etc.
The building of the Outer ring road without rail is typical of Victoria. Roads foremost and stuff rail. We don't need more hugely expensive motorways, especially if IV is serious about the goal of reducing emissions. The rail lines would be built before the road if they really were committed to that goal.

Neil
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Electrification to Mt Atkinson (near Rockbank).
Why in the blue hell wouldn't they just electrify to Melton?
Lachlan's Train Channel

Why wouldn't you just do the right thing and take it through to Ballarat area.  Hell those EMU trains will be faster up the hills than the DMU's
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
- Electrification to Mt Atkinson (near Rockbank).
Why in the blue hell wouldn't they just electrify to Melton?

Why wouldn't you just do the right thing and take it through to Ballarat area.  Hell those EMU trains will be faster up the hills than the DMU's
bevans

Unlikely...so let's dispel this myth right here, COVID notwithstanding I've been travelling this section of track almost daily for over 30 years Exclamation

V'Locity's travelling on the DOWN, between Bacchus Marsh and Ballan, that is whilst travelling up the escarpment before the actual Ingliston bank usually have to brake in THREE places to slow to 115Km/h or thereabouts to negotiate three curves.

The big horseshow curve, the 'esses' before reaching Bank Box loop and the curve before crossing Ingliston Road.
Ingliston bank on the DOWN, that is travelling up hill is taken at around 120 to 130Km/h, before the transmission slips into top gear at 135 km/h in the vicinity of the 160 km/h sign near Gilletts Lane.

Point to point times, a V'Locity and a spark would be the same running times between Bacchus marsh and Ballan.


Not much in this report for the Mallee and Sunraysia apart from tinkering with Mildura's urban bus timetable and more use of community buses. Nothing specific to V/Line services.

At least in this report the ridiculous advocacy for the expensive to use airlines to Mildura has been dropped.

Mike.
  8502 Chief Train Controller

@bevans and Mike it is not the fact I think that it works now it is not green and clean and we need to change transport emissions as other countries are doing. Why not have green power feeding a nice fast service from Melbourne to Ballarat on a single platform (Like Sydney to Newcastle) which is better performing.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
@bevans and Mike it is not the fact I think that it works now it is not green and clean and we need to change transport emissions as other countries are doing. Why not have green power feeding a nice fast service from Melbourne to Ballarat on a single platform (Like Sydney to Newcastle) which is better performing.
8502

So, we spend how many $$ replacing V'Locity's with green EMU's Question

Then we electrify at huge expense to replicate the existing service with the same performing rolling stock. Moreover, the Newcastle line was electrified decades ago and the rolling stock also operated on the Blue Mountains line, which makes Ingliston Bank look like an ant hill.

Furthermore, even though Newcastle, electric, compared to Bendigo is the same distance, look below for comparable express running times.

Newcastle to Central - 2' 37".
Bendigo to Southern Cross - 1' 48".

Mike.
  8502 Chief Train Controller

I am not going to agree with you Mike it is an argument the world has moved on from.

We need green transport, green trains and deploy those other trains switch spew diesel fumes to other parts of the network.  Victoria is not getting it.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I am not going to agree with you Mike it is an argument the world has moved on from.

We need green transport, green trains and deploy those other trains switch spew diesel fumes to other parts of the network.  Victoria is not getting it.
8502
There are a million things to be addressed for greening before rail in any of its forms. All of these will have far greater benefits on carbon emissions but it seems that virtually everything that we do here in Victoria goes the other way.

Just look at country freight rail - everything we do in relation to rail is a balls up (or worse) which results inevitably in more trucks, B doubles (whatever).

Freight rail in Victoria can only be the result of two things:
  1. Criminal incompetence
  2. Corruption (assuming that 'they' are smart enough to be corrupt).
Sadly, it really is Yes Minister stuff.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

- Electrification to Mt Atkinson (near Rockbank).
Why in the blue hell wouldn't they just electrify to Melton?
Why wouldn't you just do the right thing and take it through to Ballarat area.  Hell those EMU trains will be faster up the hills than the DMU's
bevans
Easy answer, that's doing the irresponsible thing, wasting money on unnecessary projects, great job Bevans. The Fast rail to Geelong is already a waste of money and now this idea!!!

It's not a priority yet or have any viability right now, there are better ways to spend than the $$$ than splurging electrification to Ballarat, complete waste of money. If you had any economic sense you'd see how wasteful that would be.

Anyways unlike the other gunzels here, I see the electrification cuts are to make them happen sooner if they were done in sections, instead waiting for the whole section to be complete. Sunshine-Rockbank for the first section and Rockbank-Melton as the second section. When you got limited funds around, I can see why this is a superior option.
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

- Electrification to Mt Atkinson (near Rockbank).
Why in the blue hell wouldn't they just electrify to Melton?
Why wouldn't you just do the right thing and take it through to Ballarat area.  Hell those EMU trains will be faster up the hills than the DMU's
Easy answer, that's doing the irresponsible thing, wasting money on unnecessary projects, great job Bevans. The Fast rail to Geelong is already a waste of money and now this idea!!!

It's not a priority yet or have any viability right now, there are better ways to spend than the $$$ than splurging electrification to Ballarat, complete waste of money. If you had any economic sense you'd see how wasteful that would be.

Anyways unlike the other gunzels here, I see the electrification cuts are to make them happen sooner if they were done in sections, instead waiting for the whole section to be complete. Sunshine-Rockbank for the first section and Rockbank-Melton as the second section. When you got limited funds around, I can see why this is a superior option.
True Believers
IV has looked at staging projects to save money. Its IV doing there job, stretching the dollar and getting the most out of infrastructure.

Major housing development is happening now around Mt Akinson, this is where the greatest demand will be and therefore the biggest return on infrastructure dollars. This will also release capacity for more people to board at Melton. Once the project is complete planning could start to Melton, phased project over 5+ years.

As for Ballarat, It will need to double in size before EMU will even be thought of.

Lockie
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
I am not going to agree with you Mike it is an argument the world has moved on from.

We need green transport, green trains and deploy those other trains switch spew diesel fumes to other parts of the network.  Victoria is not getting it.
There are a million things to be addressed for greening before rail in any of its forms. All of these will have far greater benefits on carbon emissions but it seems that virtually everything that we do here in Victoria goes the other way.

Just look at country freight rail - everything we do in relation to rail is a balls up (or worse) which results inevitably in more trucks, B doubles (whatever).

Freight rail in Victoria can only be the result of two things:
  1. Criminal incompetence
  2. Corruption (assuming that 'they' are smart enough to be corrupt).
Sadly, it really is Yes Minister stuff.
YM-Mundrabilla
Your gonna love what recommendation 79 of this report is...
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I am not going to agree with you Mike it is an argument the world has moved on from.

We need green transport, green trains and deploy those other trains switch spew diesel fumes to other parts of the network.  Victoria is not getting it.
There are a million things to be addressed for greening before rail in any of its forms. All of these will have far greater benefits on carbon emissions but it seems that virtually everything that we do here in Victoria goes the other way.

Just look at country freight rail - everything we do in relation to rail is a balls up (or worse) which results inevitably in more trucks, B doubles (whatever).

Freight rail in Victoria can only be the result of two things:
  1. Criminal incompetence
  2. Corruption (assuming that 'they' are smart enough to be corrupt).
Sadly, it really is Yes Minister stuff.
Your gonna love what recommendation 79 of this report is...
Dangersdan707
Where in the hell do I find it?

OK - tell me that it is to convert Mildura to BG! Crying or Very sad
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
I am not going to agree with you Mike it is an argument the world has moved on from.

We need green transport, green trains and deploy those other trains switch spew diesel fumes to other parts of the network.  Victoria is not getting it.
There are a million things to be addressed for greening before rail in any of its forms. All of these will have far greater benefits on carbon emissions but it seems that virtually everything that we do here in Victoria goes the other way.

Just look at country freight rail - everything we do in relation to rail is a balls up (or worse) which results inevitably in more trucks, B doubles (whatever).

Freight rail in Victoria can only be the result of two things:
  1. Criminal incompetence
  2. Corruption (assuming that 'they' are smart enough to be corrupt).
Sadly, it really is Yes Minister stuff.
Your gonna love what recommendation 79 of this report is...
Where in the hell do I find it?

OK - tell me that it is to convert Mildura to BG! Crying or Very sad
YM-Mundrabilla
Easy! Spend 4 hours scrolling through the PDF till you get to it! Sadly its not recommending Enn mass gauge conversion to the correct gauge. I'll save you the hassle comrade. Pretty much proposes that the state government should guarantee funding for regional freight line maintenance.

In the next year, fund a 30-year periodic regional freight rail maintenance program, informed by a publicly available network development and asset management plan. Using the plan, thoroughly determine the feasibility of the next major regional freight upgrade within five years. Rail freight has a basic cost advantage over road freight,61 especially in transporting bulk commodities over long distances. A freight train can carry as much as 110 trucks.62 But rail’s share of Victorian freight is stagnant or in decline,63 meaning the freight rail network is underused, especially on freight-only regional lines. Compared with the regional passenger network, rail freight has significantly more assets in average, poor, or end-of-life condition.64 A badly maintained regional rail freight network has lower performance and reliability, reduces asset longevity, and increases catastrophic failure risk. Several Victorian freight trains have derailed in the last five years.65 Despite occasional funding boosts, routine and major periodic maintenance has historically not kept pace with the required investment.66 An asset management plan announced in 2018 is still underway, with no indication of its completion or publication date.67 The Victorian Government should fund a 30-year periodic maintenance program to improve rail freight’s competitiveness, akin to the four-year program begun in 2017.68 Rail freight benefits arise in the long-term and need sustained maintenance investment to materialise. An ongoing fund, at approximately $70 million each year, provides the funding stability to maximise efficient maintenance. The program should include assessing the rail freight network’s current state and fund immediate, high priority works. It will boost industry confidence in the Victorian Government’s long-term commitment to maintaining quality freight infrastructure. This supports the complementary industry investments required to grow the rail freight industry and means maintenance spending can be optimised in the long term. A long-term network development and asset management plan should inform the program. For the maximum benefit, the plan should consider incorporating the excluded parts of the revised Murray Basin Project, and consider a new rail freight line on the outer metropolitan road and rail corridor (see recommendation 66).69 The plan should Determine the long-term rail gauge in different network sections, the sequence of projects, and ways to prepare for cost-effective gauge conversion, Identify opportunities to realise efficiencies, particularly at ports Set maintenance standards and overcome constraints, such as critical track sections with lower loading limits  Inform rolling stock and locomotive investment decisions Consider options for new intermodal terminals, and support connections between rail terminals and the main rail line75 Consider the interactions and access arrangements with passenger services and network plans. Many stakeholders expressed major concerns about the reduced scope of the Murray Basin Rail Project, particularly for businesses. Publishing a plan can help address these concerns and should include a program of projects. The Victorian Government should then commence thorough feasibility and business case work on the next major rail freight project within five years. In doing so, it should improve governance, project and contract management, practices in project planning, scoping and cost estimation, and stakeholder engagement.78 The Victorian Government should develop and publish the plan to provide certainty and confidence to investors and producers.79
Recommendation 79
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
- Electrification to Mt Atkinson (near Rockbank).
Why in the blue hell wouldn't they just electrify to Melton?
Why wouldn't you just do the right thing and take it through to Ballarat area.  Hell those EMU trains will be faster up the hills than the DMU's
Easy answer, that's doing the irresponsible thing, wasting money on unnecessary projects, great job Bevans. The Fast rail to Geelong is already a waste of money and now this idea!!!

It's not a priority yet or have any viability right now, there are better ways to spend than the $$$ than splurging electrification to Ballarat, complete waste of money. If you had any economic sense you'd see how wasteful that would be.

Anyways unlike the other gunzels here, I see the electrification cuts are to make them happen sooner if they were done in sections, instead waiting for the whole section to be complete. Sunshine-Rockbank for the first section and Rockbank-Melton as the second section. When you got limited funds around, I can see why this is a superior option.
True Believers
Totally agree. Fast Rail to Geelong via Newport is stupid. Electrification to Ballarat, Really? Melton or Bacchus Marsh yes, but Ballarat.


Michael
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I am not going to agree with you Mike it is an argument the world has moved on from.

We need green transport, green trains and deploy those other trains switch spew diesel fumes to other parts of the network.  Victoria is not getting it.
There are a million things to be addressed for greening before rail in any of its forms. All of these will have far greater benefits on carbon emissions but it seems that virtually everything that we do here in Victoria goes the other way.

Just look at country freight rail - everything we do in relation to rail is a balls up (or worse) which results inevitably in more trucks, B doubles (whatever).

Freight rail in Victoria can only be the result of two things:
  1. Criminal incompetence
  2. Corruption (assuming that 'they' are smart enough to be corrupt).
Sadly, it really is Yes Minister stuff.
Your gonna love what recommendation 79 of this report is...
Where in the hell do I find it?

OK - tell me that it is to convert Mildura to BG! Crying or Very sad
Easy! Spend 4 hours scrolling through the PDF till you get to it! Sadly its not recommending Enn mass gauge conversion to the correct gauge. I'll save you the hassle comrade. Pretty much proposes that the state government should guarantee funding for regional freight line maintenance.

In the next year, fund a 30-year periodic regional freight rail maintenance program, informed by a publicly available network development and asset management plan. Using the plan, thoroughly determine the feasibility of the next major regional freight upgrade within five years. Rail freight has a basic cost advantage over road freight,61 especially in transporting bulk commodities over long distances. A freight train can carry as much as 110 trucks.62 But rail’s share of Victorian freight is stagnant or in decline,63 meaning the freight rail network is underused, especially on freight-only regional lines. Compared with the regional passenger network, rail freight has significantly more assets in average, poor, or end-of-life condition.64 A badly maintained regional rail freight network has lower performance and reliability, reduces asset longevity, and increases catastrophic failure risk. Several Victorian freight trains have derailed in the last five years.65 Despite occasional funding boosts, routine and major periodic maintenance has historically not kept pace with the required investment.66 An asset management plan announced in 2018 is still underway, with no indication of its completion or publication date.67 The Victorian Government should fund a 30-year periodic maintenance program to improve rail freight’s competitiveness, akin to the four-year program begun in 2017.68 Rail freight benefits arise in the long-term and need sustained maintenance investment to materialise. An ongoing fund, at approximately $70 million each year, provides the funding stability to maximise efficient maintenance. The program should include assessing the rail freight network’s current state and fund immediate, high priority works. It will boost industry confidence in the Victorian Government’s long-term commitment to maintaining quality freight infrastructure. This supports the complementary industry investments required to grow the rail freight industry and means maintenance spending can be optimised in the long term. A long-term network development and asset management plan should inform the program. For the maximum benefit, the plan should consider incorporating the excluded parts of the revised Murray Basin Project, and consider a new rail freight line on the outer metropolitan road and rail corridor (see recommendation 66).69 The plan should Determine the long-term rail gauge in different network sections, the sequence of projects, and ways to prepare for cost-effective gauge conversion, Identify opportunities to realise efficiencies, particularly at ports Set maintenance standards and overcome constraints, such as critical track sections with lower loading limits  Inform rolling stock and locomotive investment decisions Consider options for new intermodal terminals, and support connections between rail terminals and the main rail line75 Consider the interactions and access arrangements with passenger services and network plans. Many stakeholders expressed major concerns about the reduced scope of the Murray Basin Rail Project, particularly for businesses. Publishing a plan can help address these concerns and should include a program of projects. The Victorian Government should then commence thorough feasibility and business case work on the next major rail freight project within five years. In doing so, it should improve governance, project and contract management, practices in project planning, scoping and cost estimation, and stakeholder engagement.78 The Victorian Government should develop and publish the plan to provide certainty and confidence to investors and producers.79
Dangersdan707
Thanks DD.
Sadly, by the time anyone at Spring Street reads it (let alone understands Recommendation 79) it will be all over for freight rail in Victoria.
The only hope that I can see is sufficient irresistible external pressure over greenhouse emissions as to force any sort of change. For this to even happen, however, 'someone' will need to hit them head on with irrefutable, publicly understandable facts and figures to overcome the road lobby and votes.
In other words someone will need to publicly shame the bastards into doing something for the good of the community at large rather than themselves and their mates.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
I am not going to agree with you Mike it is an argument the world has moved on from.

We need green transport, green trains and deploy those other trains switch spew diesel fumes to other parts of the network.  Victoria is not getting it.
8502

What other parts of the network Question

In your wasteful $$ analogy are you asking V'Locity's to be deployed elsewhere in the V/Line network. In which case their greenhouse gases are still being sent into the atmosphere, therefore they may as well operate until they become life expired...yes Question

By then, long before their 30 years life expiry we will in all likelihood, through necessity being the mother of invention, have already invented a non carbon dioxide emitting method of propelling DMU's and other greenhouse emitting vehicles.

Mike.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
There has been almost no discussion or announcements from the government on Wallan desolate this being a key project why ?
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Despite wallan being a key project.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
There has been almost no discussion or announcements from the government on Wallan desolate this being a key project why ?
freightgate
Thats cause its a long term plan, they don't have to act on it.

Wallan's electrification and Upfield's rejoining to the north East line are proposed after the cityloop reconfiguration. Even then, compared to MM2 and SRL, sparks to Wallan are peanuts. Very minor compared to some of the other stuff in this report
  Riain Locomotive Fireman

- Electrification to Mt Atkinson (near Rockbank).
Why in the blue hell wouldn't they just electrify to Melton?
Why wouldn't you just do the right thing and take it through to Ballarat area.  Hell those EMU trains will be faster up the hills than the DMU's
Easy answer, that's doing the irresponsible thing, wasting money on unnecessary projects, great job Bevans. The Fast rail to Geelong is already a waste of money and now this idea!!!

It's not a priority yet or have any viability right now, there are better ways to spend than the $$$ than splurging electrification to Ballarat, complete waste of money. If you had any economic sense you'd see how wasteful that would be.

Anyways unlike the other gunzels here, I see the electrification cuts are to make them happen sooner if they were done in sections, instead waiting for the whole section to be complete. Sunshine-Rockbank for the first section and Rockbank-Melton as the second section. When you got limited funds around, I can see why this is a superior option.
True Believers

Why is Fast Rail Geelong a waste of money? It's only ~11km of single track on an existing easement. It will save Geelong commuters 2.5 hours a week. What other low hanging fruit will get such obvious and valuable gains?

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