Suburban Rail Loop (Election promise)

 
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

I don't mind some of this guys videos, but looking at a map and reading a few articles docent not make you an expert on a cities local transport network, its pressures and how its commuters use it.

As has been said before, this isn't a transport project, and he is right in saying that there is currently no demand. Of course there isn't, we don't have any orbital transport network. One only has to look to the Western Ring Road and inner suburban major roads to see that there are hundreds of thousands of cars traveling across the city.
Lockie91
Great post, and you hit on a lot of the same points that I would make. His videos aren't bad per se, but you can quickly make yourself look a fool if you proclaim to be an expert on every city in the world. What might work in Canada, or North America more broadly doens't always extend to Europe or Australia, and the same vice versa.

I wouldn't ever try to tell London or New York how to improve their city or PT network, but then again I don't have to pump out a new 20min video everyday for the algorithm, I only care about my city because I'm a daily user and a recipient of its best and worst (train, tram and bus).

On the SRL, having briefly read the business case they're going all in on making those station precincts into hubs for both jobs and housing. So I would expect lots of medium rise buildings, similar in scale to what's already in box hill and glen waverley. And Monash, well that's about to become the next parramatta if what they forecast is right. From ~40k jobs to ~160k jobs in the precinct. To read the graph below, ignore the colour gradients, blue is 2018 and green is 2056.

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  Djebel Junior Train Controller

Thanks John. The documents could be clearer about that, otherwise it looks like the connectivity is woefully inadequate!
"clarity". .???

Just like 10,000 words to say, "door is here, here and here" and "the cost will be $xxxx"  ( I still can't work that out)
justarider
Not having read it myself: is the business case worthy of Sir Humphrey Appleby?
  TheMeddlingMonk Deputy Commissioner

Location: The Time Vortex near Melbourne, Australia
I don't think the Bus Loop at Monash will move, nor does it need to.

We still don't know anything about the Rowville Tram, but my guess would be that it goes along FTG rd to the SRL station, then through the uni to Wellington Rd, connecting both sides of the campus. Yes you can walk from the SRL to the Menzies building, but not everyone is able to, a tram would be a great way of linking the two.
John.Z
An interesting idea. I had been wondering how they might address the Wellington Rd/Princes Hwy intersection, since the tram route would be down the central median strip of the Princes Hwy. If it diverges at FTG Rd (which is a much neater point to do it), then I can see how this would work.

I still think they will either need to move or add bus stops at the SRL station to improve connectivity. It's a long way between the SRL station and the bus loop otherwise.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Lastly, RE Monash. The station as has been said by planners is located for the future. Warehouses are cheaper to buy and redevelopment that prime uni land that I'm sure Monash will charge a bomb for. The uni just needs to relocate its bus interchange and problem is solved.

Now, time to read a business case.

Lockie
I agree. The moment I saw the proposed station location I thought that all Monash will do is shift the bus interchange. They're already redeveloping towards that corner of the university anyway, so it gives them a chance to factor the SRL into one of the less-developed sections of the campus.
TheMeddlingMonk
And of course there are already 4 bus routes passing the "new" site, including 2 that come from the current bus inter.
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

I don't think the Bus Loop at Monash will move, nor does it need to.

We still don't know anything about the Rowville Tram, but my guess would be that it goes along FTG rd to the SRL station, then through the uni to Wellington Rd, connecting both sides of the campus. Yes you can walk from the SRL to the Menzies building, but not everyone is able to, a tram would be a great way of linking the two.
An interesting idea. I had been wondering how they might address the Wellington Rd/Princes Hwy intersection, since the tram route would be down the central median strip of the Princes Hwy. If it diverges at FTG Rd (which is a much neater point to do it), then I can see how this would work.

I still think they will either need to move or add bus stops at the SRL station to improve connectivity. It's a long way between the SRL station and the bus loop otherwise.
TheMeddlingMonk
It is more likely that tram link will run down Blackburn Road, unless Monash is willing to chip in for its construction.

Speaking of light rail, SRL presents a few opportunities. Line 70 to the new Burwood Station and for heavens sake we might even see Line 48 extended to Doncaster, you could get real wild and extended it to Doncaster East to increase the capture of the new SRL station.
Line 11 to Reservoir, and if Batman (Coburg) is chosen for the new station location in 20.... Line 58 could connect into it.
Jeez, we might even seen Line 57 up Melrose Drive by 2052.

Lockie
  Dissonance Station Master

As has been mentioned, all the rail-rail interchanges are terrible. And the “ranking” of station locations all looks incredibly biased to fit what is wanted anyway.

The Southland/Cheltenham SRL station appears to be nearly 200 metres away from the Frankston line station, and across Bay Road from the shopping centre.

The Clayton Station appears to require crossing Clayton Road to also reach the Metro/VLine station and the Monash hospital precinct.

The Burwood Station appears to be the worst placed, requiring crossing the busy Burwood Rd to reach the Deakin Campus and lacking in consideration for interchange with the 75 tram.

It’s also notable the document keeps referencing SRL “East” and “North” - are these planned to be two seperate operating lines?

Also, while the Eastern suburbs may have the most activity centres, it’s disappointing that it’s being prioritised at the expense of the North and West. Feels like yet again transport links in the West are an afterthought. It’s an outrageously expensive project and while perhaps beneficial I feel cheaper upgrades should be prioritised first (eg duplication of all remaining suburban rail lines, lines to Doncaster/Rowville, V/Line electrification etc) especially if this is the lion’s share of transport funding for the next 40 years.

$70 billion is just asking for embezzlement to happen.
  Jordy33 Locomotive Fireman

All transfer stations will have paid area interchange. That means upgrades to the existing metro stations. Maximum platform - platform time will be 5 minutes. I believe for most people it would be more like 2-3 minutes. Very reasonable.
  Jordy33 Locomotive Fireman

To not have a pedestrian overpass or underpass on Burwood highway would be stupid and ridiculous. It’s 6 lanes of traffic and a tram line. I’ll expect at the minimum a grade separated pedestrian crossing, but even better would be a new island tram stop with access from the overpass / underpass. No one would sign off on letting hundreds or thousands cross that highway everyday.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Latest from the business case the system will be SANS Drivers https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/belated-business-case-reveals-rail-loop-will-feature-driverless-trains
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
They'll run out of money before it gets completed anyway - and he had an incredibly valid point in that video about cut and cover being ignored. Should have ran the route directly under major roads using cut and cover, would have reduced the cost to a fraction of the (very under-costed) $50 billion.

Victoria has been on a prosperity tear due to exploding stamp duty receipts for the last two decades - the money will run out soon.
don_dunstan

Nothing much a'happenin' in Adelaide so thought you'd add your two penneth worth here, hey Question

You've been forecasting gloom and doom for Victoria's economy since you left here. We are actually managing quite well over here without you.

Please...feel free to spew more bile.

Mike.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
They'll run out of money before it gets completed anyway - and he had an incredibly valid point in that video about cut and cover being ignored. Should have ran the route directly under major roads using cut and cover, would have reduced the cost to a fraction of the (very under-costed) $50 billion.

Victoria has been on a prosperity tear due to exploding stamp duty receipts for the last two decades - the money will run out soon.

Nothing much a'happenin' in Adelaide so thought you'd add your two penneth worth here, hey Question

You've been forecasting gloom and doom for Victoria's economy since you left here. We are actually managing quite well over here without you.

Please...feel free to spew more bile.

Mike.
The Vinelander
There's no need for a deeply personal attack against me just because I'm putting my two cents in on this very, very expensive project. But then there's a pretty thin line between hatred and infatuation - right Mike?

You are definitely drinking during the day - the above lines are more obvious than Barnaby Joyce's recent displays during question time. Another daytime lushy if there was ever one. And like all daytime lushies you think that else nobody notices and you're getting away with it.

And you're a public servant, you have no clue where the money comes from to pay for stuff - from payroll is all you know. You're the last person on this board who would have a clue about money.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Ok I collected some key points quickly:

-> SRL East cost range: $30B-34.5B
Jordy33
Update this is incorrect information because the way the government has published in media is actually the lower bound of SRL East and SRL north!!!

Yes it's a little confusing but let me clarify the figures listed in the cost analysis section (important bit in the business case)

They have two different program cases (They included East and North together):
A) SRL East built first and then SRL north built second (takes longer but more cheaper)
B) Both SRL East and SRL north will be constructed concurrently (finishes quicker but more expensive)

They use a discount rate of 4% as a base in the analysis as standard.

Using the discounted figures you get:
A) 30b-50b
B) 35b-57b

The government reported the lower bound cost of stages 1 (East) and 2 (North) together!
Realistically SRL East would approximate to 14b-23b. Around the same price as Sydney Metro West.

I hope I'm bringing out the best most accurate information out there instead of relying on what the media and government says, you have to look at the details lol.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
They'll run out of money before it gets completed anyway - and he had an incredibly valid point in that video about cut and cover being ignored. Should have ran the route directly under major roads using cut and cover, would have reduced the cost to a fraction of the (very under-costed) $50 billion.

Victoria has been on a prosperity tear due to exploding stamp duty receipts for the last two decades - the money will run out soon.

Nothing much a'happenin' in Adelaide so thought you'd add your two penneth worth here, hey Question

You've been forecasting gloom and doom for Victoria's economy since you left here. We are actually managing quite well over here without you.

Please...feel free to spew more bile.

Mike.
There's no need for a deeply personal attack against me just because I'm putting my two cents in on this very, very expensive project. But then there's a pretty thin line between hatred and infatuation - right Mike?

You are definitely drinking during the day - the above lines are more obvious than Barnaby Joyce's recent displays during question time. Another daytime lushy if there was ever one. And like all daytime lushies you think that else nobody notices and you're getting away with it.

And you're a public servant, you have no clue where the money comes from to pay for stuff - from payroll is all you know. You're the last person on this board who would have a clue about money.
don_dunstan

Sorry... not sorry for the 'deeply personal attack'. Then you go on to accuse me of having a drinking problem. Smile

I'm unlikely to be infatuated by the great pretender with the identity crisis who covets the name of the former LEFT wing hero Premier of SA...then writes and quotes RIGHT wing loony garbage and conspiracy theories from Murdoch, Sky, Fox et al.

If he knew, the true great Don Dunstan would turn over in his grave.

Mike.
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

Latest from the business case the system will be SANS Drivers https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/belated-business-case-reveals-rail-loop-will-feature-driverless-trains
bevans
About time, the RTBU is already foaming at the mouth and the project is a decade away. They are already choking that the HCMTS are semi autonomous around the yards.

They'll run out of money before it gets completed anyway - and he had an incredibly valid point in that video about cut and cover being ignored. Should have ran the route directly under major roads using cut and cover, would have reduced the cost to a fraction of the (very under-costed) $50 billion. Victoria has been on a prosperity tear due to exploding stamp duty receipts for the last two decades - the money will run out soon.
Nameless

If one had bothered to read the business case or even just the glossy highlights you'll notice they are planning on introducing development levies around the station zones. Land values are expected to dramatically increase, the government quite rightly is going to take a slice to help pay for the project. You could even add a dollar to every SRL ticket to help fund it at 400,000 daily passengers at a dollar each is $14B over the year. Give or take a dollar.

50 billion over a ten year construction phase is $5 billion a year, very doable if the government plans to claw someone of the billions property developers will make.

Not to even mention the economic benefits and the increased taxes the state and feds will make from improving access to employment for half a million people.

Lockie
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Sorry... not sorry for the 'deeply personal attack'. Then you go on to accuse me of having a drinking problem. Smile
The Vinelander
Well here we are having an actual discussion about railways on Railpage on thread devoted to the construction of a new railway - and you wander through speaking jibberish like a park-drinker telling me "nuthin' much 'a happening in Adelaide so thought you'd add your two penneth worth here, hey" and  "we're getting along just fine without you".

Just reflecting back to you that dragging your dislike of me onto this thread about something railway related (in particular) in the middle of the day was a bit weird. I've worked with lots of secret daytime drinkers before and it was that kind of bizarre behaviour that used to give them away - so you did have me wondering out loud if you'd been drinking.

But then you're locked in at the moment aren't you maybe in that sense its excusable given its been 200+ days of lock-down in Victoria now since the start of this thing.

Anyway, more than happy to keep chatting with you, Mike, but maybe not on a thread devoted to actual railway news.
so thought you'd add your two penneth worth here, hey
The Vinelander
That's going to be my new Poochie style catch-phrase - thanks Queen Victoria. What will yours be? Let me guess:

"We are not amused".
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
so thought you'd add your two penneth worth here, hey
That's going to be my new Poochie style catch-phrase - thanks Queen Victoria. What will yours be? Let me guess:

"We are not amused".
don_dunstan

I'll wrap up my 'off thread' comments by saying I obviously pinched a nerve and the agree's, agree.


Back to matters at hand and what hasn't been discussed very much in this thread is the States funding for the Suburban Rail Loop works out to be around $4Billion a year and in Victoria's still booming economy that is a not a big percentage of the overall transport budget.
Money is made round to go around and investment in infrastructure in particular, not just PT, but also schools, hospitals, public housing etc keeps tradies and engineers in jobs and they spend their income on goods and services thus creating more jobs...all very good for the states economy.

The other thing is... you, I and many others will be pushing up daisies by the time this mega project is completed AND furthermore nobody can claim in this case in particular that politicians never look past the next election cycle.

More than likely, knowing the history of conservative governments, Gladys' in NSW perhaps being the exception as Simstrain attests to, is this project will likely be starved of funds if the likes of Michael O'Brien and his conservative, private car supporting ilk are elected in Victoria which is inevitable as the electorate will one day, perhaps in 2026 look beyond Dan Andrews and Labor for their governance.

Mike.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Victoria at least $150 billion in debt by 2030 but that was just the May 2021 Budget and you've had THREE (count 'em) lock-downs since then - so you might already be there given how Dan has been spending over the last few months. That's five times the debt that Cain/Kirner left Kennett - and this time around there's literally nothing left to privatise unless you place Crown Land roads into a corporate holding company and start charging people to access public roads like they're thinking of doing in equally-broke NSW.

You seriously think this is going to have a happy ending? I'm guessing that they're going to have to start garnisheeing people's superannuation with a 'financial sustainability levy' amongst a raft of new taxes and charges they'll have to implement in order to keep state governments going. They were sliding into obscurity before this thing - it gave them a revitalised purpose to manage COVID19 - now they're all broke from it and will have to turn to the Commonwealth - but they can't save the states either because their credit card is maxed out too.

GST will have to rise, as will income tax. And that'll just be the start.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

GST will have to rise, as will income tax. And that'll just be the start.
don_dunstan
GST to 20% is a no brainer

10% (50% of total) from state receipts to stay in state
5% (25% of total) from state receipts goes via the current redistribution process from state to state where needed
5% (25% of total) goes to the federal government

Income tax won't be increased, you want money circulating in the economy so it makes more sense to put the taxes on the consumption side rather than before it reaches peoples hands.

A land tax at both state and federal level could be looked at. Probably with an exemption for the PPOR (even if only up to a certain value)
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

GST to 20% is a no brainer
John.Z

Raising the GST would be downright stupid. We don't need to punish the poor even more than we do already. Do away with regressive taxes and focus on implementing proper progressive taxes.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

GST to 20% is a no brainer

Raising the GST would be downright stupid. We don't need to punish the poor even more than we do already. Do away with regressive taxes and focus on implementing proper progressive taxes.
reubstar6
A regressive tax is stamp duty or forcing people to drive just because the government can't be arsed giving them a decent bus or train nearby.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
GST to 20% is a no brainer

Raising the GST would be downright stupid. We don't need to punish the poor even more than we do already. Do away with regressive taxes and focus on implementing proper progressive taxes.
reubstar6
We need to grow a pair and start taxing capital and capital gains much harder but unfortunately the very rich are basically in charge of this country and they won't allow it. Raising GST is very bad, I agree - you're punishing people who consume but can't earn (ie retirees and families). But the alternative - to tax capital - is impossible to implement because said rich people derail any meaningful reform before it gets anywhere near parliament.

The poor already have it very bad in Australia - we have almost the highest cost housing in the world (bar Hong Kong), the highest cost electricity and gas and there's no plan to change any of those settings any time soon.
  ballhammer475 Beginner

Does anyone think they should put emergency platforms between stations that can be converted into a station in the future? Tunnels with such a large span need them anyways, and if the demand increases in the future these platforms can convert to a station in just a few years without disruption to the line.

Examples:

SRL East:
Moorabbin, Clayton South (Between Cheltenham and Clayton)
Mount Waverly North (Between Glen Waverly and Burwood)

SRL North:
Bulleen (Between Doncaster and Heidelberg)
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

GST to 20% is a no brainer

Raising the GST would be downright stupid. We don't need to punish the poor even more than we do already. Do away with regressive taxes and focus on implementing proper progressive taxes.
We need to grow a pair and start taxing capital and capital gains much harder but unfortunately the very rich are basically in charge of this country and they won't allow it. Raising GST is very bad, I agree - you're punishing people who consume but can't earn (ie retirees and families). But the alternative - to tax capital - is impossible to implement because said rich people derail any meaningful reform before it gets anywhere near parliament.

The poor already have it very bad in Australia - we have almost the highest cost housing in the world (bar Hong Kong), the highest cost electricity and gas and there's no plan to change any of those settings any time soon.
don_dunstan
Stupid Taxes like stamp duty are contributing to the high cost of housing, needs to be replaced with a flat land tax.

GST is the way to go as it is equitable and scalable. A study floating around a few years ago worked out increasing it by 2.5% would cover Medicare and the NDIS.

Conversely, 'poor people' don't tend to by expensive goods and pay less GST. Fresh food for example is GST Free. Middle Class and 'rich wankers' pay the most GST as they spend more, but more goods and consume more services. Their is a fair whack of GST on your 5th $5,000 Gucci handbag or your new Merc.

As for the SRL a levy on developers is the way to go, as they stand to make billions of profit with all the development planned around the station locations. Even putting a dollar surcharge on SRL trips will rake in a fair bit of cash if the 400,000 commuters use it as forecast.

Even then, the government makes money as soon as they start spending it. All those planners and consultants have to live and work in Melbourne.

Lockie
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

Does anyone think they should put emergency platforms between stations that can be converted into a station in the future? Tunnels with such a large span need them anyways, and if the demand increases in the future these platforms can convert to a station in just a few years without disruption to the line.

Examples:

SRL East:
Moorabbin, Clayton South (Between Cheltenham and Clayton)
Mount Waverly North (Between Glen Waverly and Burwood)

SRL North:
Bulleen (Between Doncaster and Heidelberg)
ballhammer475
Short Answer no and I don't intend to come of harsh.

It is not a commuter transport project. SRL is high standard, high frequency metro project linking key destinations and trip generators.

SRL East, Station provisions for Heatherton. Clayton east and the area of Morrabin SRL skirts is industrial land, former quarry so no major redevelopment going on here.

Mount Waverley north and Bulleen are both low density residential areas, with no major trip generators. Both these areas will be covered by feed busses linking into the precincts that SRL stations create.

As for the idea of being able to 'just build some platforms' the tunnel will be bored and contracted in a similar fashion to MM1. You cant just add in some platforms and come back at a later date. There is a TONE, like Massive amounts of mechanical equipment that goes into building and underground station. Take MM1 for example, tunnelling is complete but project is still years aways. Takes a long time to turn those concrete station boxes into shiny metro stations. Unless they are going to be 100% mined, surface level properties will need to go.

They only way to achieve this would be to construct full station boxes with all the provisions needed and then come back at a later date. Add $2-3 billion for each station, then the fit out costs.

Just like other modern tunnels it will be fitted with a passenger gangway to one side, cross passages into the adjoining tunnel and ventilation stacks/emergency egress.

Lockie
  Dissonance Station Master

Article in The Age questioning the cost-benefits of the projects and the atypical methodology used for calculations
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/deep-drill-into-rail-loop-costs-raises-questions-on-methods-and-value-20210820-p58km5.html

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