The 'renewable' energy thread -

 
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
Two stories in todays sensible media about climate change:

1. The UN is saying Australia should drop coal within 10 years. Surely with such bad press, seemingly on a weekly basis, coals days are surely numbered.

"The United Nations’ top climate official has urged Australia to have a ‘‘more honest and rational conversation’’ about urgently abandoning coal power, which he said was in the nation’s and the world’s best interests."

https://todayspaper.smedia.com.au/theage/shared/ShowArticle.aspx?doc=AGE%2F2021%2F09%2F06&entity=Ar00300&sk=A8C0BE87&mode=text

2. And finally, the right wing media has decided after all these years it's time to abandon their previously ongoing advocacy of myths about climate change's non existence. Suddenly they've had a back flip and now, under Murdoch's directive they are now advised to be climate change believers.

"News Corp Australia, an influential player in Australia’s decade-long climate wars, will end its long-standing editorial hostility towards carbon reduction policies and will advocate for the world’s leading economies to hit net zero emissions by 2050"

https://todayspaper.smedia.com.au/theage/shared/ShowArticle.aspx?doc=AGE%2F2021%2F09%2F06&entity=Ar01401&sk=5319981A&mode=text

Looks like the representative from SA's disbelieving climate rhetoric is up for a serious root and branch review as his sage news leaders' decided there's money in now believing the climate science.

You've got a few weeks to start changing your narrative.

"From October 17, the company will run a two-week campaign that will advocate for a carbon net zero target to be reached by 2050, and which is expected to focus heavily on jobs in a decarbonised economy, particularly blue-collar industries such as mining and agriculture."

What a petard you have hoisted your banner to, or are you going to keep banging on...all on your own...a bitter, sole voice in the wilderness of climate change deniers and flat earthers.



Mike.

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  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Murdoch's motto (with apologies to Grouch Marx) "These are my principles; if you don't like them, I have others"
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
If we stop using coal there will be national blackouts - end of story. I've published stats on Australia's reliance on coal, on a typical night 80% of the nation is being powered by coal. You seriously think a battery (which lasts less than an hour) can make up for days of no wind or overcast weather? They made the exact same mistake in Alice Springs with no backup and there were constant blackouts - they had to repurchase diesel generators to keep the town going.

In the second place, China and India are not going to sign the Glasgow Agreement - China is saying at this point that they won't even show up. So you have the world's largest carbon emitter (by far) and the up-and-coming developing nation around fourth both saying they will not commit to containing their carbon emissions - they will not go net zero. Not now, not any time in the future. Because they don't want to lose their competitive advantage over the west is the reason why - COAL IS CHEAP. The average price in China for electricity is about a quarter of what it is in Australia - you seriously think the Chinese are going to give up that advantage?

They're not as stupid as we are.

And we can't stop exporting the stuff either - it brings in $54,000,000,000 in foreign revenues (count the zeros, Mike) - money that pays for all your imported fancies that you love to buy just the same as me. Without that money the AU$ would collapse and we wouldn't be able to afford our imported cars, imported solar panels, imported wind turbines - none of that stuff. Ironic isn't it that coal actually enables us to import this stuff - but it does.

So forget it about it, Mike, we might be rushing down the path to blackouts and ever-more expensive electricity but the Chinese are not joining us. And if they don't join us it makes all our efforts in little old Australia (less than half a percent of all emissions globally) just a joke - a joke at the expense of jobs and the poor.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

If we stop using coal there will be national blackouts - end of story. I've published stats on Australia's reliance on coal, on a typical night 80% of the nation is being powered by coal. You seriously think a battery (which lasts less than an hour) can make up for days of no wind or overcast weather? They made the exact same mistake in Alice Springs with no backup and there were constant blackouts - they had to repurchase diesel generators to keep the town going.

In the second place, China and India are not going to sign the Glasgow Agreement - China is saying at this point that they won't even show up. So you have the world's largest carbon emitter (by far) and the up-and-coming developing nation around fourth both saying they will not commit to containing their carbon emissions - they will not go net zero. Not now, not any time in the future. Because they don't want to lose their competitive advantage over the west is the reason why - COAL IS CHEAP. The average price in China for electricity is about a quarter of what it is in Australia - you seriously think the Chinese are going to give up that advantage?

They're not as stupid as we are.

And we can't stop exporting the stuff either - it brings in $54,000,000,000 in foreign revenues (count the zeros, Mike) - money that pays for all your imported fancies that you love to buy just the same as me. Without that money the AU$ would collapse and we wouldn't be able to afford our imported cars, imported solar panels, imported wind turbines - none of that stuff. Ironic isn't it that coal actually enables us to import this stuff - but it does.

So forget it about it, Mike, we might be rushing down the path to blackouts and ever-more expensive electricity but the Chinese are not joining us. And if they don't join us it makes all our efforts in little old Australia (less than half a percent of all emissions globally) just a joke - a joke at the expense of jobs and the poor.
don_dunstan
We can't simply rely on coal forever Don.  Green hydrogen will become a big part of the scene before too long to fill the gaps.  i.e. Use excess solar and wind during the day to produce it during the day, and then run it through fuel cells in evening peak/night.

Maybe Nuclear down the track too if they can get the cost down.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
We can't simply rely on coal forever Don.  Green hydrogen will become a big part of the scene before too long to fill the gaps.  i.e. Use excess solar and wind during the day to produce it during the day, and then run it through fuel cells in evening peak/night.

Maybe Nuclear down the track too if they can get the cost down.
Carnot
The Japanese tried doing hydrogen for years and they quietly gave up not long ago - it's quite dangerous to store and transport is the problem, very corrosive and containers/pipes need to be replaced often.

Why can't we keep using coal forever - India and China are.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line

So forget it about it, Mike, we might be rushing down the path to blackouts and ever-more expensive electricity but the Chinese are not joining us. And if they don't join us it makes all our efforts in little old Australia (less than half a percent of all emissions globally) just a joke - a joke at the expense of jobs and the poor.
don_dunstan

So, in your opinion, the actual experts have no idea what they are talking about and the other elephant in the room that was just insurmountable for you to comment on.

Murdoch has instructed his media to be pro the environment...IE anti-coal from 17 October. Looks like you're off to a very lonely space.

Mike.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
We still have the elephant in the room saying that life without coal is impossible.

He may yet be bracketed together with Lord Kelvin (1824 - 1907), President of that august scientific body, the Royal Society. Some of his more famous statements are:-
“ Heavier than air flying machines are impossible”
“There is nothing new to be discovered in physics now.”
“Radio has no future; X Rays are a hoax.”
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Two stories in todays sensible media about climate change:

1. The UN is saying Australia should drop coal within 10 years. Surely with such bad press, seemingly on a weekly basis, coals days are surely numbered.

"The United Nations’ top climate official has urged Australia to have a ‘‘more honest and rational conversation’’ about urgently abandoning coal power, which he said was in the nation’s and the world’s best interests."

https://todayspaper.smedia.com.au/theage/shared/ShowArticle.aspx?doc=AGE%2F2021%2F09%2F06&entity=Ar00300&sk=A8C0BE87&mode=text

2. And finally, the right wing media has decided after all these years it's time to abandon their previously ongoing advocacy of myths about climate change's non existence. Suddenly they've had a back flip and now, under Murdoch's directive they are now advised to be climate change believers.

"News Corp Australia, an influential player in Australia’s decade-long climate wars, will end its long-standing editorial hostility towards carbon reduction policies and will advocate for the world’s leading economies to hit net zero emissions by 2050"

https://todayspaper.smedia.com.au/theage/shared/ShowArticle.aspx?doc=AGE%2F2021%2F09%2F06&entity=Ar01401&sk=5319981A&mode=text

Looks like the representative from SA's disbelieving climate rhetoric is up for a serious root and branch review as his sage news leaders' decided there's money in now believing the climate science.

You've got a few weeks to start changing your narrative.

"From October 17, the company will run a two-week campaign that will advocate for a carbon net zero target to be reached by 2050, and which is expected to focus heavily on jobs in a decarbonised economy, particularly blue-collar industries such as mining and agriculture."

What a petard you have hoisted your banner to, or are you going to keep banging on...all on your own...a bitter, sole voice in the wilderness of climate change deniers and flat earthers.



Mike.
The Vinelander
Australia is not in a position to abandon coal sourced power for around 15-20 years as the alternatives do not exist today.

The good news is that by 2030, at least 4 maybe 5 and potentially 6 of the coal power stations that are in operation today will be closed. This is all based on new RE etc that will come on line over the next decade.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud

So forget it about it, Mike, we might be rushing down the path to blackouts and ever-more expensive electricity but the Chinese are not joining us. And if they don't join us it makes all our efforts in little old Australia (less than half a percent of all emissions globally) just a joke - a joke at the expense of jobs and the poor.
So, in your opinion, the actual experts have no idea what they are talking about and the other elephant in the room that was just insurmountable for you to comment on.

Murdoch has instructed his media to be pro the environment...IE anti-coal from 17 October. Looks like you're off to a very lonely space.

Mike.
The Vinelander
We still have the elephant in the room saying that life without coal is impossible. He may yet be bracketed together with Lord Kelvin (1824 - 1907), President of that august scientific body, the Royal Society. Some of his more famous statements are:- “ Heavier than air flying machines are impossible” “There is nothing new to be discovered in physics now.” “Radio has no future; X Rays are a hoax.”
Valvegear
Australia is not in a position to abandon coal sourced power for around 15-20 years as the alternatives do not exist today.
RTT_Rules
Mike, just because Murdoch has APPARENTLY agreed to give in to the likes of Malcolm Turnbull and Kevin Rudd - who have been publicly pressuring him to do that - doesn't mean what I've always said is any less true. We are not in a position to either stop burning coal OR to stop exporting it for very clear reasons. Coal is getting the best prices its got in years at the moment - like I said fifty-four billion so you and I can buy our tasty imported treats (pretty much everything we consume). Are you ready for rapid inflation if we're forced to stop selling it?

Malcolm Turnbull never discloses his huge direct financial interest in wind-farms by the way -

And at least RTT_Rules and Aaron have enough brains to understand that particularly in this instance what I'm saying is a hundred percent right - we can't have reliable power and a transition to even 50% NEM renewables without huge cap ex and even then we still risk blackouts when there's a slow moving high pressure system in winter as I've explained before. Batteries and pumped hydro just won't cut the mustard if there's no wind or sun for a few days.

The technology AND infrastructure to support what they're proposing simply isn't there - it's like Elon Musk's electric truck, too ambitious and the tech isn't there. If I have to I guess I'll have to buy a stand-alone thing to by-pass the grid entirely but mark my words unfavorable weather nationally equals blackouts without coal. Bridge too far.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

So forget it about it, Mike, we might be rushing down the path to blackouts and ever-more expensive electricity but the Chinese are not joining us. And if they don't join us it makes all our efforts in little old Australia (less than half a percent of all emissions globally) just a joke - a joke at the expense of jobs and the poor.
So, in your opinion, the actual experts have no idea what they are talking about and the other elephant in the room that was just insurmountable for you to comment on.

Murdoch has instructed his media to be pro the environment...IE anti-coal from 17 October. Looks like you're off to a very lonely space.

Mike.
We still have the elephant in the room saying that life without coal is impossible. He may yet be bracketed together with Lord Kelvin (1824 - 1907), President of that august scientific body, the Royal Society. Some of his more famous statements are:- “ Heavier than air flying machines are impossible” “There is nothing new to be discovered in physics now.” “Radio has no future; X Rays are a hoax.”
Australia is not in a position to abandon coal sourced power for around 15-20 years as the alternatives do not exist today.
Mike, just because Murdoch has APPARENTLY agreed to give in to the likes of Malcolm Turnbull and Kevin Rudd - who have been publicly pressuring him to do that - doesn't mean what I've always said is any less true. We are not in a position to either stop burning coal OR to stop exporting it for very clear reasons. Coal is getting the best prices its got in years at the moment - like I said fifty-four billion so you and I can buy our tasty imported treats (pretty much everything we consume). Are you ready for rapid inflation if we're forced to stop selling it?

Malcolm Turnbull never discloses his huge direct financial interest in wind-farms by the way -

And at least RTT_Rules and Aaron have enough brains to understand that particularly in this instance what I'm saying is a hundred percent right - we can't have reliable power and a transition to even 50% NEM renewables without huge cap ex and even then we still risk blackouts when there's a slow moving high pressure system in winter as I've explained before. Batteries and pumped hydro just won't cut the mustard if there's no wind or sun for a few days.

The technology AND infrastructure to support what they're proposing simply isn't there - it's like Elon Musk's electric truck, too ambitious and the tech isn't there. If I have to I guess I'll have to buy a stand-alone thing to by-pass the grid entirely but mark my words unfavorable weather nationally equals blackouts without coal. Bridge too far.
don_dunstan
The Power Geeration component of the required CAPEX to transition to RE is part of the cost of replacement of the aging coal fleet. A coal power station is rated to operate between 40 - 50 years at which time its deemed end of life and needs capital investment, regardless of the coal - anti coal sedement at the time.

A coal power station costs around US $2B / GW. So 5 x coal power stations averaging 1.5GW each = A$20B +/- 30%. So between now and 2030-35 you have around $20B of CAPEX that needs to be spent anyway in generational capacity.

In each case the replacemet power station will more than likely be placed in a new location as nearly all the current generation were for a number of reasons. So new HV lines will also be required. Even if not, the existing lines will also likely be end of life and/or need considerable upgrades.

HV lines in general have a finite life of around 80 years, depeding on location. But more often not need upgrades in capacity mid life which is not cheap as often done live. Think helicopters beig used as platforms to change each insulator and often new cables being pulled through. Regardless a new 1000 MW line costs around $1-2 m/km.

The transition to 50% RE in the NEM is actually not that far away.
Coal is 65% and decreasing by about 2% yoy, although this will accelerate over the coming 10 years.
Gas is around 7%, but will be entrenched in our supply and likely expand to 10% for another 20 years or more.

However to push harder for a faster reduction is more than likely just wasting money sunk into the existing coal fleet and supportig infrastructure. The youngest coal power station is barely 15 years old.

Lots of mistakes made in the past by various govts thinking short term and TBH a number of state govt's including Vic and SA and to a lesser degree NSW (with Qld rubbing its hands at the extra revenue selling more coal power to SE corner) leaving the longer term problem for the feds to solve. However  the pathway to 50% (40% coal) by 2030 I think is well established and to some point irreversable and the current fed govt has made huge headway over the last 4 years using technology available today to work towards closing Liddel and others in the late 2020's without a crisis in the grid as happened in the past.


Cyber truck has alot of issues, I actually think the least of their worries is he EV techology, rather than the non convential design to build a large 4x4. Its a bit like SpaceX Starship, they didn't just have to invent the Metholox engine, rather invent new ways to weld and different alloys to use. However unlike Cyber truck, each test Starship is only required to be used once and then its redundent technology. Musk even said its better blow them up as its quicker and cheaper than pulling them apart for scrapping. Not sure the average Redneck is ready to drive their car just once.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
More grist for the mill. The representative from SA lampoons the Fairfax/Nine media and suggests that all media be given an opportunity to express their 'opinions' on renewables and carbon emissions reductions. Despite the rest of the world leaving us behind as we glacially transition to doing the right thing by the planet and future generations.

https://todayspaper.smedia.com.au/theage/shared/ShowArticle.aspx?doc=AGE%2F2021%2F09%2F10&entity=Ar02403&sk=CBF08C32&mode=text

Fridays Fairfax editorial sums up perfectly the dinosaur that's News Ltd and in particular the following excerpt by News Corp poster boy, Andrew Blot.

"Only a month ago, in response to the latest report by the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, News Corp commentator Andrew Bolt repeatedly chose to mock it with arguments that would not stand up in a high school science class, including the bizarre claim that ‘‘if a warming world is better for plants, why not for humans?’’ It’s hard to imagine him changing."

The representative from SA accuses me of being self centred, but in all seriousness the representative from SA is far more self centred in supporting News Corp and its economic bottom line better late than never conversion to climate change believers.

This is another reason I take with a grain of salt what's written by the representative from SA.

Mike.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
For someone who claims to dislike me you sure spend a lot of time directly addressing me, trying desperately to get my attention like the neighbour's unloved Pomeranian.

Who cares if Rupert has changed his mind or not? It doesn't alter the truth of the very poorest Australians being the ones who have to pay with higher power prices - and ultimately their jobs when they're off-shored - every time there's another push for the rubbish known as 'green energy'. And they won't stop coal mining by 2030 - how could they do that when on a typical evening 80% of our national needs are STILL COMING FROM COAL. It can't be done no matter what you or anyone else says - and what will replace the loss of $54,000,000,000 of export revenues, Mike? (count those zeros).

In the meantime Telsa's latest update to its self-driving package - the update that Elon Musk promised Tesla drivers would actually result in true self-driving capabilities - has turned out to be dud (shock! horror!). From Zero Hedge;

Despite consistent promises of each iteration of Full Self Driving becoming more and more "mind blowing", as Elon Musk once said on Twitter, videos of the company's latest beta are starting to surface online and - surprise - it still doesn't look like the company is anywhere near mastering any type of "full self driving", no matter how you want to capitalize the name.

Ergo, the world's largest bait and switch - collecting $10,000 deposits for a feature that isn't anywhere near being close to what Elon Musk has repeatedly promised - continues.

Yes that's right, Tesla drivers paid $10,000 each to subscribe to the auto-drive feature and were promised only recently by Musk that they'd have full autonomous driving by now.

The latest auto-drive faults include footage of the cars trying to drive into oncoming traffic, ignoring 'road closed' signs, trying to run red lights... the list goes on. The Google package is apparently slightly better but we're still a long way from safe, fully autonomous driving.
  303gunner Train Controller

I don't know what the price of natural gas is in Dalby/Qld Graham, but I built my solar passive, energy efficient, extremely well insulated Vinelander Towers in Ballan 35 years ago which is a much colder climate you'd have to agree.

Yes natural gas was cheap in the mid 1980's and that's why I had and still have gas hot water, heating and cooking and my last bill in Winter was $120.00 for 2 months with two of us at home. So depending on the cost of gas, I'd never get back my investment in solar and converting everything to electric etc. So I'm unlikely to ever go solar due to my comparatively low bills.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Mike, I can draw an analogy between your experience that having installed Gas in your home when it was cheap and remains economically viable to continue using it rules out converting to PV as uneconomic and unnecessary, with the situation that Australia is in where it has relied on Coal because it was cheap and plentiful enough to last decades (if not Centuries) at our current rates of Domestic consumption, and economically damaging to convert to renewables.

In the 80's, Natural Gas was touted as being cheap, clean and reliable because we were told we had reserves to last 500 years. Then some greedy Multinational got the idea that energy fetched higher prices overseas and exported vast quantities to foreign markets. This led to a shortage in Domestic supplies, requiring the introduction of fracking and developing new fields in prime agricultural districts. Without Exports sucking out our gas reserves, we could comfortably supply the Domestic Gas Market for centuries with our existing reserves.

Likewise, we should restrict exports of Coal (and therefore our contributions to Global CO2 emissions), giving us years and years of Domestic energy security while reducing the net CO2 created by Australian Coal to negligible Global levels. Coal reserves in Australia, if not exported, will be sufficient to provide over a Century of 24/7 reliable power.

Covid has demonstrated a strong desire for self-sufficiency and less dependence on foreign supply chains. Australia is well placed to be domestically self-sufficient in energy for decades.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

A big breakthrough in Lithium-Sulphur batteries at Monash University:

https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2021/09/sugar-batteries-could-soon-power-electronics-evs/
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
In the 80's, Natural Gas was touted as being cheap, clean and reliable because we were told we had reserves to last 500 years. Then some greedy Multinational got the idea that energy fetched higher prices overseas and exported vast quantities to foreign markets. This led to a shortage in Domestic supplies, requiring the introduction of fracking and developing new fields in prime agricultural districts. Without Exports sucking out our gas reserves, we could comfortably supply the Domestic Gas Market for centuries with our existing reserves.
303gunner

That was squarely the fault of the Gillard government for approving the construction of way too many LNG export plants - three in Gladstone QLD alone. By the time they were all opened in 2017 it was becoming obvious that it was a huge mistake - in 2020 all those plants combined were using more gas in the process of liquefaction than the whole of Australia's domestic consumption - that gives you an idea of how much gas is being sucked out of our country. In addition the companies that actually constructed these things were entitled to write down the value of construction of those plants so there wasn't even any royalties for taxpayers to reward us for the huge spike in domestic gas prices.

We've squarely been ripped off by a cartel of robber baron gas companies aided and abetted by our own politicians - the situation has become so ridiculous with gas prices that Boral decided to stop making domestic house bricks in NSW because gas in Australia was too expensive and instead imports bricks from the USA because it's cheaper, how ridiculous is that. And yet we're the largest gas exporter in the world.

It's a shame about coal - we have enough stuff to last us centuries but we aren't allowed to burn it for our own benefit (or the benefit of Australian industry and jobs) but we're still shoveling it off-shore at break-neck speed - probably because we have to. Along with iron ore and gas these commodity exports constitute around 60% of the export revenue we need to get by - so without them we'd truly have no capacity to buy the stuff that we consume every day. It's a terrible position to be in because we're quite vulnerable to trade shocks having one of the least diversified economies in the world - only in the last few weeks the iron ore price has been in free-fall because of economic problems in China lessening the demand for steel.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I don't know what the price of natural gas is in Dalby/Qld Graham, but I built my solar passive, energy efficient, extremely well insulated Vinelander Towers in Ballan 35 years ago which is a much colder climate you'd have to agree.

Yes natural gas was cheap in the mid 1980's and that's why I had and still have gas hot water, heating and cooking and my last bill in Winter was $120.00 for 2 months with two of us at home. So depending on the cost of gas, I'd never get back my investment in solar and converting everything to electric etc. So I'm unlikely to ever go solar due to my comparatively low bills.

Mike.
Mike, I can draw an analogy between your experience that having installed Gas in your home when it was cheap and remains economically viable to continue using it rules out converting to PV as uneconomic and unnecessary, with the situation that Australia is in where it has relied on Coal because it was cheap and plentiful enough to last decades (if not Centuries) at our current rates of Domestic consumption, and economically damaging to convert to renewables.

In the 80's, Natural Gas was touted as being cheap, clean and reliable because we were told we had reserves to last 500 years. Then some greedy Multinational got the idea that energy fetched higher prices overseas and exported vast quantities to foreign markets. This led to a shortage in Domestic supplies, requiring the introduction of fracking and developing new fields in prime agricultural districts. Without Exports sucking out our gas reserves, we could comfortably supply the Domestic Gas Market for centuries with our existing reserves.

Likewise, we should restrict exports of Coal (and therefore our contributions to Global CO2 emissions), giving us years and years of Domestic energy security while reducing the net CO2 created by Australian Coal to negligible Global levels. Coal reserves in Australia, if not exported, will be sufficient to provide over a Century of 24/7 reliable power.

Covid has demonstrated a strong desire for self-sufficiency and less dependence on foreign supply chains. Australia is well placed to be domestically self-sufficient in energy for decades.
303gunner
There is actually enough coal in Australia to see Australia out for around 4,000 years with no exporting and 125 years of known reserves with exporting. As for the known reserves, they have barely touched the surface as miners normally only look for enough reserves to keep their operations running for next 10 years or so, maybe longer if justfiing a major capital project.

Gas, the reference in 80's was traditional Natural Gas. Australia's proven reserves of gas was small until the massive NW shelf discovery and more recent coal seam methane technology. The gas exported from Gladstone is Coal Seam Methane for which the reserves are almost bottomless, however therewere significant teething issues in the first 1-2 years which coincided with power sector issues with closure of two coal power stations thus driving up the demand for gas generated power at a time that wasn't ideal.

All three major export terminals, NW WA, Darwin and Gladstone ONLY exist due to export. Had there been no export market they would never have been developed. NT's gas grid is not even connected with the East coast network cannot blame the exporters for the issues in the SE.

WA put in place a domestic gas reservation policy very early on which protects WA from international prices and demand. ie domestic demand must come first. This never happened in the east coast because Qld failed to do so and NSW and Vic didn't move to protect themselves early enough, however the situation has since improved.

Nationally prior to about 2 decades ago, residential use of gas was limited to major centeres, especially Melbourne & vic and inner Sydney. Not sure about Adelaide or Perth. Since leaving home in 1989, I've lived in a flat in Tas that had mains gas for cooking (which is now closed) and later a house with bottle gas for heating only. All other houses I've lived and nearly all our relatives do not have gas to their house at all outside the BBQ.

The export of both coal and gas is a major reason for the standard of living in Australia today, so we need to becareful we don't throw the baby out with the bathway.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
In the 80's, Natural Gas was touted as being cheap, clean and reliable because we were told we had reserves to last 500 years. Then some greedy Multinational got the idea that energy fetched higher prices overseas and exported vast quantities to foreign markets. This led to a shortage in Domestic supplies, requiring the introduction of fracking and developing new fields in prime agricultural districts. Without Exports sucking out our gas reserves, we could comfortably supply the Domestic Gas Market for centuries with our existing reserves.

That was squarely the fault of the Gillard government for approving the construction of way too many LNG export plants - three in Gladstone QLD alone. By the time they were all opened in 2017 it was becoming obvious that it was a huge mistake - in 2020 all those plants combined were using more gas in the process of liquefaction than the whole of Australia's domestic consumption - that gives you an idea of how much gas is being sucked out of our country. In addition the companies that actually constructed these things were entitled to write down the value of construction of those plants so there wasn't even any royalties for taxpayers to reward us for the huge spike in domestic gas prices.

We've squarely been ripped off by a cartel of robber baron gas companies aided and abetted by our own politicians - the situation has become so ridiculous with gas prices that Boral decided to stop making domestic house bricks in NSW because gas in Australia was too expensive and instead imports bricks from the USA because it's cheaper, how ridiculous is that. And yet we're the largest gas exporter in the world.

It's a shame about coal - we have enough stuff to last us centuries but we aren't allowed to burn it for our own benefit (or the benefit of Australian industry and jobs) but we're still shoveling it off-shore at break-neck speed - probably because we have to. Along with iron ore and gas these commodity exports constitute around 60% of the export revenue we need to get by - so without them we'd truly have no capacity to buy the stuff that we consume every day. It's a terrible position to be in because we're quite vulnerable to trade shocks having one of the least diversified economies in the world - only in the last few weeks the iron ore price has been in free-fall because of economic problems in China lessening the demand for steel.
don_dunstan
WA managed to look after its domestic requirements, Qld should have done the same as projects approved by Qld govt. I wouldn't put Gillard on the chopping block for this alone.

EDIT

Boral exited the Brick business and sold out to Brickworks for which the owner repeatitly said it was cheaper to import from USA but I cannot find a reference to say it was done on a large scale.

In WA which didn't suffer from high gas prices theys till closed local manufactiring and import tiles and bricks from Spain, claiming it was cheaper to import tiles from Spain than export excess production to the East Coast. No references to gas prices.

Other issues for local brick manufacturers is similar to the car industry. Gone are the days when everyone has the same car, just different colour, same with bricks. Also the tonnes of bricks per house has been in decline for two decades as other materials are being used in partial or fully. Gone are the days of a full brick house, often double briocked down stairs, bricks are now more used for decorative purposes.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
The cybertruck is almost certainly a joke, as is most of what Musk says.

His biggest joke though was the electric vtol ‘jet’ and his semi.

Even if the subject of Carnot’s article is viable, 1000 cycles for the battery!!! Yay, so every Tesla semi is going need a battery change every three years - no trucker used to replacing little more than tires, fluids and filters in the first decade of their new truck is going to accept that.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

The cybertruck is almost certainly a joke, as is most of what Musk says.

His biggest joke though was the electric vtol ‘jet’ and his semi.

Even if the subject of Carnot’s article is viable, 1000 cycles for the battery!!! Yay, so every Tesla semi is going need a battery change every three years - no trucker used to replacing little more than tires, fluids and filters in the first decade of their new truck is going to accept that.
Aaron
The Tesla Cybertruck/Semi/VTOL are definitely jokes.  Years in development and nothing to show for it.

Green H2 fuel cells will be the way to go for trucks, trains, and ships in the future.  Hyundai are already putting big $$$ into this.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
The cybertruck is almost certainly a joke, as is most of what Musk says.

His biggest joke though was the electric vtol ‘jet’ and his semi.

Even if the subject of Carnot’s article is viable, 1000 cycles for the battery!!! Yay, so every Tesla semi is going need a battery change every three years - no trucker used to replacing little more than tires, fluids and filters in the first decade of their new truck is going to accept that.
The Tesla Cybertruck/Semi/VTOL are definitely jokes.  Years in development and nothing to show for it.

Green H2 fuel cells will be the way to go for trucks, trains, and ships in the future.  Hyundai are already putting big $$$ into this.
Carnot
Why hydrogen can never work as a fuel source: Forbes Magazine "Why are we still talking about hydrogen?"

Incredibly energy inefficient to produce, insufficient when used for things like cars (batteries are actually way better), very difficult to store and transport, highly corrosive so containers and pipes need to be replaced on a regular basis and to top it all off extremely explosive.

Its been explored as a fuel source for decades but nobody has ever managed to get it operate at scale; that should tell you all you need to know.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
WA managed to look after its domestic requirements, Qld should have done the same as projects approved by Qld govt. I wouldn't put Gillard on the chopping block for this alone.

EDIT

Boral exited the Brick business and sold out to Brickworks for which the owner repeatitly said it was cheaper to import from USA but I cannot find a reference to say it was done on a large scale.

In WA which didn't suffer from high gas prices theys till closed local manufactiring and import tiles and bricks from Spain, claiming it was cheaper to import tiles from Spain than export excess production to the East Coast. No references to gas prices.

Other issues for local brick manufacturers is similar to the car industry. Gone are the days when everyone has the same car, just different colour, same with bricks. Also the tonnes of bricks per house has been in decline for two decades as other materials are being used in partial or fully. Gone are the days of a full brick house, often double briocked down stairs, bricks are now more used for decorative purposes.
RTT_Rules
So house bricks are only cosmetic? Wow, didn't know that interesting fact.

I keep returning to this pearler on this very thread on July 18th:
I'm out of this thread and lounge permanently. Enjoy life in the south Don.
RTT_Rules
I correctly predicted at the time that it wouldn't last... and I was right.

Is there anything I don't know? Wink
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
WA managed to look after its domestic requirements, Qld should have done the same as projects approved by Qld govt. I wouldn't put Gillard on the chopping block for this alone.

EDIT

Boral exited the Brick business and sold out to Brickworks for which the owner repeatitly said it was cheaper to import from USA but I cannot find a reference to say it was done on a large scale.

In WA which didn't suffer from high gas prices theys till closed local manufactiring and import tiles and bricks from Spain, claiming it was cheaper to import tiles from Spain than export excess production to the East Coast. No references to gas prices.

Other issues for local brick manufacturers is similar to the car industry. Gone are the days when everyone has the same car, just different colour, same with bricks. Also the tonnes of bricks per house has been in decline for two decades as other materials are being used in partial or fully. Gone are the days of a full brick house, often double briocked down stairs, bricks are now more used for decorative purposes.
So house bricks are only cosmetic? Wow, didn't know that interesting fact.

I keep returning to this pearler on this very thread on July 18th:
I'm out of this thread and lounge permanently. Enjoy life in the south Don.
I correctly predicted at the time that it wouldn't last... and I was right.

Is there anything I don't know? Wink
don_dunstan
Yes, why is the most common house design in Australia from the 60's through to the 2000's was called, wait for it, "Brick Veneer". The brick provides no structural support to the house rather tied to the timber or steel frame to stop it falling over. Hell now they have half and even smaller brick thicknesses to reduce cost. If you want structual loading brick walls they need to be double bricked.

Don, how many times have you said you were leaving or not talking to me again? Mmm Don, Mmm.......

What you don't know wouldn't even fit into French Submarine.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The cybertruck is almost certainly a joke, as is most of what Musk says.

His biggest joke though was the electric vtol ‘jet’ and his semi.

Even if the subject of Carnot’s article is viable, 1000 cycles for the battery!!! Yay, so every Tesla semi is going need a battery change every three years - no trucker used to replacing little more than tires, fluids and filters in the first decade of their new truck is going to accept that.
The Tesla Cybertruck/Semi/VTOL are definitely jokes.  Years in development and nothing to show for it.

Green H2 fuel cells will be the way to go for trucks, trains, and ships in the future.  Hyundai are already putting big $$$ into this.
Why hydrogen can never work as a fuel source: Forbes Magazine "Why are we still talking about hydrogen?"

Incredibly energy inefficient to produce, insufficient when used for things like cars (batteries are actually way better), very difficult to store and transport, highly corrosive so containers and pipes need to be replaced on a regular basis and to top it all off extremely explosive.

Its been explored as a fuel source for decades but nobody has ever managed to get it operate at scale; that should tell you all you need to know.
don_dunstan
H2 will never be widely used in cars or light commerical because EV's are inhertiantly simpler and cheaper. The exception maybe vehciles constantly 24h use.

As for full life cycle energy efficency, I would like to see that compared against petrol or gas.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

H2 will never be widely used in cars or light commerical because EV's are inhertiantly simpler and cheaper. The exception maybe vehciles constantly 24h use.

As for full life cycle energy efficency, I would like to see that compared against petrol or gas.
RTT_Rules
Yes, for heavy vehicles H2 is the way to go.  As for efficiency:
Fuel cells are about 65%
Electrolysis is 80%
Hence around 50%, but that doesn't take into account fuel transport and so forth.

Cost is the other big issue for H2.  Scaling up and further efficiency gains should see that end up being closer to current diesel costs within a decade or so.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The cybertruck is almost certainly a joke, as is most of what Musk says.

His biggest joke though was the electric vtol ‘jet’ and his semi.

Even if the subject of Carnot’s article is viable, 1000 cycles for the battery!!! Yay, so every Tesla semi is going need a battery change every three years - no trucker used to replacing little more than tires, fluids and filters in the first decade of their new truck is going to accept that.
Aaron
Cybertruck I would say not, the development time was always going to be around 5 years and needed a factory to be built which is I think nearing completion. Musk himself admitts he has an issue in predicting time frames and really needs to let other speak on his behalf with this.

Cybertruck intentionally moves away from convential "light truck" design and uses new materials not normally used in car manufacture, pretty much like Starship and many ways Falcon 9. Hence innovation takes time and also battery manfufacturing rates needs to catch up as even Powerwall 3 has been delayed and production rates of Powerwall 2  have limited due to limited battery supply caused by the boom in EV's and utililty battery storage. There will never be a Cyber truck parked in my driveway, that shape and look isn't my thing, but others do like it and it will sell as shown by the upfront orders.

Tesla semi, its down on the priorty list, not held back by technology but again by batteries and will start production late this year or early next year. There are over 2000 on order with some very high profile brands part of them, it would be a PR disastor for Tesla to F-this up. However again I don't think the semi is a one size fits all by any means and certainly not intended for the high daily distance trucking operations. For example in Iceland (just came back from) a semi is limited by speed, distance and roads to about 400 - 600 km per day

The plane, yeah well this is obviously a long-term plan. Interestingly the first electric plane in commerical service (not Tesla) starts this or next year.

Again personal view is that regarding EV's, its not about CO2 reduction as we can argue this isn't or is real over the lifetime, but they do and will dramatically increase air quality and noise levels at the street level, which for me is a major win. The ability to not pay someone else for your energy is also obviously attractive to those who feel ripped off by the oil industry, which is almost national past-time in Australian media and many parts of the community.

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