The corona virus COVID-19

 
  Mr. Lane Chief Commissioner

The rule is that those Victorians who are interstate may choose to get vaccinated or not but may only come home if vaccinated. They are not required to come home.
Disallowing people to return to their home state based on vaccination status is taking things too far. Anti-vaxxers may be stupid, but they should still be allowed to be stupid.
Yep, disallowing people to return home because they MUST get vaccinated, that is going down a very dangerous path! sure, mandate it for clubs/pubs/supermarkets/cinemas etc.... but not coming home.
There are "Refugee" camps springing up on the southern and northern borders of NSW filling with Vics and Qlders waiting to be allowed to get back home. Some Qlders have been waiting for over 8 weeks to return to their homes, and despite spending this time in "Border Community" LGAs have not been recognised as local residents and qualifying for the 14 days out of a hotspot, and have been told to abandon their caravans and pets where they are, return to Sydney (where cases are still high), then fly to Brisbane and enter 14 days hotel Q at their own expense before they can go to their homes by public transport. How does this seem fair or make sense? Some Qlders (many are Grey Nomads who have been double vaxxed) have been waiting indefinitely in camps since BEFORE Anastacia Palaszczuk went to Tokyo and because they are not allowed to enter Qld in private vehicles!

Sure, allow Anti-Vaxxers to be stupid by all means, but call out Politicians and Health Officials for their stupid, draconian and illogical policies.
303gunner

Seriously though, why is anyone travelling out of state in a pandemic unless they really, really have to? People know that borders can close any time...

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  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
o ohh




Raf Epstein


@Raf_Epstein






· 19h

@VicGovDH preparing hospitals on the basis there are 18,000 covid cases by mid Oct We have just under 2000 active cases right now They're prepping for 800 Covid patients in hospital by then.. there are about 120 covid patients right now Projection, not modelling
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Disallowing people to return to their home state based on vaccination status is taking things too far. Anti-vaxxers may be stupid, but they should still be allowed to be stupid.
Yep, disallowing people to return home because they MUST get vaccinated, that is going down a very dangerous path! sure, mandate it for clubs/pubs/supermarkets/cinemas etc.... but not coming home.
lsrailfan
Mandating vaccination to access food (ie. Supermarket) is also overreach. Look, for some high risk occupations it makes sense, but to deny people access to food, medicine, shelter, care, church etc because of their vaccination status is a form of Apartheid or worse.
Carnot
This is exactly the path that we're headed down though. I've been holding out for as long as I can but I'll probably have to relent soon if only because they're threatening to not let you board aircraft or go interstate unless you show your 'freedom of movement' papers - Qantas head Alan Joyce is saying that's what he wants to happen, various Premiers are also saying the same thing (especially Colin Barnett) and if I can't get on a plane or go interstate then I'm probably going to have to give in and get the injection.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
The states were always held accountable for quarentine, some assistance was offered via use of the army to operate it, some took it up, some refused.
RTT_Rules
At least one refused for political reasons, and that's the one the had private security and the front line and nothing but private security, a botched programme and, combined with contact tracing problems, caused a second wave in that state.

A Quaratine facility is by any other name, a hotel. Hotels exist and have all the facilities required including staff. Quaratine facilities didn't and cost $100m's of dollars to buid. The ones in Qld, QA and Vic which are very limited in capacity and in the case of Qld smaller than what they take now are unlikely to see even one guest provided their Premiers stick to the NC plan of open at 80%. WA Premier has already set a goal no country in the world has a achieved of 90% and Qld is struggling on the back of confusing advice issued by the Qld CHO among other things.
RTT_Rules
A quarantine facility may be a hotel or some other accommodation. I'm not sure the Premiers will stick to it, why was 80% even decided when the herd immunity threshold is not yet known? No country in the world has yet achieved a 90% uptake, let alone at least 90% per age group in all areas of a country, but that's because it's still been less than a year since there has been a vaccine. Furthermore, all vaccines except the Johnson & Johnson one, approved only in the U.S, are two dose vaccines. Hotel may have staff and many facilities required but often not adequate ventilation.

Howard Springs is not purpose built, its a modified mine camp. The purpsoe built illegal immigrant detention centres are not suited for virus control for obvious reasons. Howard Springs works by operating mostly in batch mode, which is why its rarely used as once everyone arrives, no one leaves until 14 days has passed and no one tests positive. Howard Springs was transfered to NT Govt a few months back.
RTT_Rules
According to biosecurity experts, these are better suited to virus control than hotels in big cities. More on that later.

The outbreaks have been due to mismanagement and at times bad luck. As almost every state has had their own outbreak at one point of time or another with Vic the most and NSW obviously the most severe. Some states even bragged they had the "Gold Standard", until they didn't. While no doubt it can be improved, everything is also an evolving situation and the general comments from various "expert" sources last year was 2021 was supposed to be the year we get vaxed and open up, globally this has only been a partial sucess as variants go against past trends of other similar bugs. So is it worth changing ownership at this time? Yes it is a political issue and along the lines of the other political issue of calls to sack Gladys or Dan, such calls are more likely to be nothing more than politically motivated and likewise with Quarratine equally pointless.
RTT_Rules
The first one is what caused the second wave and was due to the behaviour of the security guards at the hotels. They did not use sanitiser, they were paid in cash, did not wear masks (let alone N95), went into guests rooms with no training, often hit and hugged each other, etc. The number of new cases a day in Victoria began to rise after an infected security guard (Muslim) hung out with his big family group, that group violating all the restrictions.
There may also have been failures of hotel quarantine in Sydney (where the police are used) and if so, that's perhaps one reason why New South Wales made slower progress than all but one other state.
At first, quarantine workers were hardly tested at all, but then there was a leak out of quarantine in Adelaide in November 2020 after which weekly testing was adopted.
As far as I know, there were no leaks out of hotel quarantine in Queensland until January the following year when someone tested positive for a variant of concern now called the Alpha variant. Their response was authoritarian.
Western Australia had 10 months free of community transmission coming to an end right at the end of that month, followed by 5 days of draconian measures after a security guard tested positive for some variant of concern. At no point in that 10 month streak was daily testing of quarantine workers done in Perth even though adopted in Melbourne back in December 2020 when Melbourne hotel quarantine started again.

Howard Springs works better because of separate units spaced further apart from each other than rooms of hotels. Purpose built quarantine facilities would do even better than Howard Springs in other ways. See this article.

EDIT:
Seriously though, why is anyone travelling out of state in a pandemic unless they really, really have to? People know that borders can close any time...
Mr. Lane
Then again, why have people even been travelling out of the Trans-Tasman bubble to COVID-laden countries like India if not under the most exceptional circumstances? The same Liberal government that decided states and territories would be quarantining international arrivals and has been criticised regarding the vaccine rollout has not been tough enough on people leaving the Trans-Tasman bubble.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Interesting announcement in today's Vic Presser - all freight and health workers on multiple entry permits to have at least one vax shot by Sept 23 to be able to enter Victoria.
  Mr. Lane Chief Commissioner

Then again, why have people even been travelling out of the Trans-Tasman bubble to COVID-laden countries like India if not under the most exceptional circumstances? The same Liberal government that decided states and territories would be quarantining international arrivals and has been criticised regarding the vaccine rollout has not been tough enough on people leaving the Trans-Tasman bubble.
Myrdrone

Australia has pretty harsh restrictions when it comes to allowing people to leave and arrive, so much so the UN has said not allowing citizens to return is a breach of human rights and international law.

Not even New Zealand disallows citizens from leaving.

And who says the Government hasn't been tough enough? Have you reviewed all of the cases? Generally people who have been allowed to leave are dual citizens or foreign citizens with a permanent residence.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

Citizens and residents may arrive, but there is no air ticket.
  doyle Chief Commissioner
  303gunner Train Controller

Seriously though, why is anyone travelling out of state in a pandemic unless they really, really have to? People know that borders can close any time...
Mr. Lane
Well, they sold their house after getting advice from both the NSW and Qld Govt. Selling one house and buying another are long drawn out processes, and once you start, you can't really stop halfway. The Qld Govt doesn't telegraph these closures with much notice, they just lock up and leave both residents, cross-border workers and tourists in limbo:

https://au.news.yahoo.com/woman-devastated-confusion-qld-border-permit-changes-045623527.html

There are plenty of other stories of people who have travelled for medical treatment, or of kids going to grandparents for school holidays, all before any hint of a lockdown or border closure, now trapped and unable to return home.
  Graham4405 The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dalby Qld
why is anyone travelling out of state in a pandemic unless they really, really have to?
Mr. Lane
I don't leave my house unless I really have to...
  • Shopping (once a week)
  • Medical appointments
  • Exercise (5km walk every now and then)
  • An occasional visit to a friend's home
Now before "the representative from SA" tells me I'm scared, that is far from the truth. There has never been a COVID case here. I'm just being careful and sensible. If I don't need to go anywhere, I don't.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Then again, why have people even been travelling out of the Trans-Tasman bubble to COVID-laden countries like India if not under the most exceptional circumstances? The same Liberal government that decided states and territories would be quarantining international arrivals and has been criticised regarding the vaccine rollout has not been tough enough on people leaving the Trans-Tasman bubble.

Australia has pretty harsh restrictions when it comes to allowing people to leave and arrive, so much so the UN has said not allowing citizens to return is a breach of human rights and international law.

Not even New Zealand disallows citizens from leaving.

And who says the Government hasn't been tough enough? Have you reviewed all of the cases? Generally people who have been allowed to leave are dual citizens or foreign citizens with a permanent residence.
Mr. Lane
Yes the restriction is a bit of a WTF but it was also to stop additional load on hotel and to prevent the exact same situation that happened in India where alot of people left using the loop hole via Auckland and then got stuck trying to get back due to travel bans from India and hotel quarentine limitations for which the WA, Qld and Vic Premiers said was never intended to be used by those leaving and coming back for "tourist" purposes, only for bringing people back.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Me being multiple dosed even with multiple vaccines doesn't guarantee I won't get it if someone like yourself is successful in passing it to me. Having EVERYONE vaccinated (or temporarily immunity enhanced if you prefer) gives YOU and ME and EVERYONE the best possible chance of avoiding it in the first place.

ADDITIONALLY, if the vaccine does entirely prevent me from contracting the virus from you, I still have the privilege of paying for your two weeks (plus) on life support in a hospital, plus associated costs of your on going future treatment and potential lifetime of organ damage and subsequent losses of productivity - presuming you're not already unproductively on welfare.

I pay enough tax already.
I have about a two percent chance of going to hospital if I get COVID19 without vaccination - that's what the statistics tell me for my age group and health status. And that's not factoring in the new antiviral treatments that have just been approved last month.
don_dunstan
So let me get this straight, you're worried about the safety of an 'untested' (your words, not mine) vaccine that now has a solid many months of safe, international use associated with it, whilst championing antivirals that have less than a month's approval time and negligible use behind them? Forget not playing with a full deck, you're currently holding the card most people without a full deck have lost.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
So, Don's been slapped down by Professor's, high ranking epidemiologists, and other's who say that the Vaccines are more than effective, but nope, according to his backward way of thinking the vaccine's are "no good", do you know something the other's don't, Don?
lsrailfan
Know something others don't? Come on, it's pretty clear he doesn't even know what most others do.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

At least one refused for political reasons, and that's the one the had private security and the front line and nothing but private security, a botched programme and, combined with contact tracing problems, caused a second wave in that state.
Mytone
Yep.

I'd love to know how this is the Fed govt fault?

A quarantine facility may be a hotel or some other accommodation. I'm not sure the Premiers will stick to it, why was 80% even decided when the herd immunity threshold is not yet known? No country in the world has yet achieved a 90% uptake, let alone at least 90% per age group in all areas of a country, but that's because it's still been less than a year since there has been a vaccine. Furthermore, all vaccines except the Johnson & Johnson one, approved only in the U.S, are two dose vaccines. Hotel may have staff and many facilities required but often not adequate ventilation.
Mytone
80% is a global bench mark of sorts with actual science behind it as well as a poitical compromise. Your 99.99% reference is illogical and impractical.

Ventiliation is a very minor issue that has proven to a problem once, now managed. They are learning more every day, you don't spend $1B because of once glitch that has since been controlled.

According to biosecurity experts, these are better suited to virus control than hotels in big cities. More on that later.
Mytone
its even better to put them on the moon, but its equally cost prohibitative.

The three redneck states are building facilities that unlike Howard Springs is designed for 500 people to come and go, not batch mode. They therefore cost more and still will only process 500 people per state per week. Thats $100m's per state spent to process less than now. Almost all of the risks and breeches of the Hotel system remains.

Howard Springs is designed to take 2 plane loads and then wait for 2 weeks to see if anyone gets sick. Isolate them and start the two weeks again. Its hopeless approach for air crew as locks them up and makes international flights including freighters impossible to operate. Howard Spings was used for repat flight only because thats all its good for and hence why its actually rarely used, not regular flights.

The first one is what caused the second wave and was due to the behaviour of the security guards at the hotels. They did not use sanitiser, they were paid in cash, did not wear masks (let alone N95), went into guests rooms with no training, often hit and hugged each other, etc.
The number of new cases a day in Victoria began to rise after an infected security guard (Muslim) hung out with his big family group, that group violating all the restrictions. There may also have been failures of hotel quarantine in Sydney (where the police are used) and if so, that's perhaps one reason why New South Wales made slower progress than all but one other state.
At first, quarantine workers were hardly tested at all, but then there was a leak out of quarantine in Adelaide in November 2020 after which weekly testing was adopted. As far as I know, there were no leaks out of hotel quarantine in Queensland until January the following year when someone tested positive for a variant of concern now called the Alpha variant.

Their response was authoritarian. Western Australia had 10 months free of community transmission coming to an end right at the end of that month, followed by 5 days of draconian measures after a security guard tested positive for some variant of concern. At no point in that 10 month streak was daily testing of quarantine workers done in Perth even though adopted in Melbourne back in December 2020 when Melbourne hotel quarantine started again.

Howard Springs works better because of separate units spaced further apart from each other than rooms of hotels. Purpose built quarantine facilities would do even better than Howard Springs in other ways. See this article.
Mytone
All those issues you mention were poor management and/or lack of understanding of what was required at the time and wasn't unqie to Australia.

Howard Springs, see above why its not to be used as a bench mark for sucess and in actual fact has only been used for a small number of people. Remember, Howard Springs is nothing more than a upgraded miners camp at the southern edge of the Greater Darwin sprawl. Hell there is even a Darwin city bus stop outside. The spacing of the rooms is not the issue, people still come in contact when outside. The issues in the main hotels regarding ventilation would have been better solved by providing people with balaconies. I've had friends stay in rooms where they cannot even open a window. You don't need to spend billions to fix this issue, just use a better designed hotel.

We are within 2-3 months of the end of this. Unless we think it will come back or continue then any suggestions about spending billions on wasted facilities is really moot.

Mytone The same Liberal government that decided states and territories would be quarantining international arrivals and has been criticised regarding the vaccine rollout has not been tough enough on people leaving the Trans-Tasman bubble.




Correction, the states decided they would quarantining international and domestic arrivals because they have the exc authority to do so.

If people have been told not to leave and they escape by using a loop hole in NZ, then they get what they deserve. Cannot blame the govt State or Feds for peoples poor choices. We had the same happen here, one of my employees wanted my company to pay for his airfare after I had advised him not to book. He booked a non refundable ticket 3h later, then next day company applied a travel ban. We have also had people leave to go home, then locked out and then ask why their salary stopped. We didn't do this during March last year and paid people up to 3mths before they could come back, but more recently during the same event as those Australian's who snuck out via Auckland.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Mandating vaccination to access food (ie. Supermarket) is also overreach.

Look, for some high risk occupations it makes sense, but to deny people access to food, medicine, shelter, care, church etc because of their vaccination status is a form of Apartheid or worse.
Carnot
Corporate mandates for employee vaccination has started for mining and other sectors not connected with these, expect more to follow.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Australia has pretty harsh restrictions when it comes to allowing people to leave and arrive, so much so the UN has said not allowing citizens to return is a breach of human rights and international law.
Mr. Lane
What? The federal government has allowed people to go to such countries to attend funerals, weddings and even conferences.

Not even New Zealand disallows citizens from leaving.
Mr. Lane
I have no idea about about New Zealand, whether a lot were leaving for the reasons like those mentioned above or only in exceptional circumstances.

And who says the Government hasn't been tough enough? Have you reviewed all of the cases? Generally people who have been allowed to leave are dual citizens or foreign citizens with a permanent residence.
Mr. Lane
One of the ones who has said this is the premier of Western Australia. He said:

Many of the people who are COVID positive are people who left Australia recently and went to COVID-laden countries, I’m just not copping that, hat people recently went to India and come back COVID positive, and then we have incidents like this occur, and then somehow the Commonwealth says that’s OK. It’s not OK. If you want to go overseas, it should be for only the most extraordinary of reasons at this point in time. Not to go overseas for a wedding. Even to go overseas for a funeral. We have to be a lot tougher in relation to letting people out of Australia.

Remember, his state had 10 months free of community transmission and is the envy of this country. He also an approval rating of 88%, a record high for an Australian premier. Not only do many Western Australian love him but wish he were prime minister.

If you can't see home quarantine working, you certainly shouldn't cop this either. Citizens and permanent residents do not have a right to re-import this virus and especially not a right to import variants of concern. The delta variant only came here because of people recently going to India and then coming back Delta positive.

Earlier this year, we had no community transmission anywhere in the Trans-Tasman bubble and if we weren't taking international arrivals, we could have lived life really normally, as normally as not having to maintain social distancing, hardly having to wear masks at all, and maybe even going out to dinner without giving the restaurant or pub or bar our contact details, and we would not have seen the resurgence we started to see in June this year.
This gives us a starting point. And when working from that starting point, Mark McGowan, that premier, is absolutely right.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

This will get the tinfoil hat/conspiracy mob all excited:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MXXU_zuU6w
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Me being multiple dosed even with multiple vaccines doesn't guarantee I won't get it if someone like yourself is successful in passing it to me. Having EVERYONE vaccinated (or temporarily immunity enhanced if you prefer) gives YOU and ME and EVERYONE the best possible chance of avoiding it in the first place.

ADDITIONALLY, if the vaccine does entirely prevent me from contracting the virus from you, I still have the privilege of paying for your two weeks (plus) on life support in a hospital, plus associated costs of your on going future treatment and potential lifetime of organ damage and subsequent losses of productivity - presuming you're not already unproductively on welfare.

I pay enough tax already.
I have about a two percent chance of going to hospital if I get COVID19 without vaccination - that's what the statistics tell me for my age group and health status. And that's not factoring in the new antiviral treatments that have just been approved last month.
So let me get this straight, you're worried about the safety of an 'untested' (your words, not mine) vaccine that now has a solid many months of safe, international use associated with it, whilst championing antivirals that have less than a month's approval time and negligible use behind them? Forget not playing with a full deck, you're currently holding the card most people without a full deck have lost.
Aaron
He dislikes the Pfizer vaccine which has being given to what 1B+ people for nearly 12mth and actually based on previous research, so really not that new. Many other vaccines are using 50 year old tried and trusted technology of simply injecting a non-activating piece of the virus.

But puts faith in a new antiviral drug thats been on the market for less than what 4 months and tested on a fraction of the people and those who it was tested on were probably not in a position to argue risk to longivity as theirs was probably estimated in days or hours without the drug.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Pretty sure they're more expensive than that, I can't be bothered trawling for the link but I read somewhere that Pfizer's margin on each injection in Australia is $30.
don_dunstan
It's not even close to that, I am not going to tell you what it is, because I refuse to do work for you. The cost of the vaccine is largely irrelevant, even at two injections per person, if you don't think $60 to keep a person out hospital even for a single day isn't cheap, you smeg up your economics course.

Ivermectin is incredibly cheap and safer than Paracetemol if you're a cow with worms.
don_dunstan
Fixed it for you.
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
If this is true

https://www.wfla.com/community/health/coronavirus/ivermectin-causes-sterilization-in-85-percent-of-men-study-finds/


Free bucket loads of Ivermectin for all morons and rednecks.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Mandating vaccination to access food (ie. Supermarket) is also overreach.

Look, for some high risk occupations it makes sense, but to deny people access to food, medicine, shelter, care, church etc because of their vaccination status is a form of Apartheid or worse.
Carnot
I have no problem denying people access to a church.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Mandating vaccination to access food (ie. Supermarket) is also overreach.

Look, for some high risk occupations it makes sense, but to deny people access to food, medicine, shelter, care, church etc because of their vaccination status is a form of Apartheid or worse.
I have no problem denying people access to a church.
Aaron
Are we North Korea?  Communist China?
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Mandating vaccination to access food (ie. Supermarket) is also overreach.

Look, for some high risk occupations it makes sense, but to deny people access to food, medicine, shelter, care, church etc because of their vaccination status is a form of Apartheid or worse.
I have no problem denying people access to a church.
Are we North Korea?  Communist China?
Carnot
Are we in need of fairy tales from the Bronze Age? Are we okay with celebrating the impregnation without consent of a young jewish girl? I'm quite confident in saying I am not to any of those things...
  Mr. Lane Chief Commissioner

Australia has pretty harsh restrictions when it comes to allowing people to leave and arrive, so much so the UN has said not allowing citizens to return is a breach of human rights and international law.
What? The federal government has allowed people to go to such countries to attend funerals, weddings and even conferences.

Not even New Zealand disallows citizens from leaving.
I have no idea about about New Zealand, whether a lot were leaving for the reasons like those mentioned above or only in exceptional circumstances.

And who says the Government hasn't been tough enough? Have you reviewed all of the cases? Generally people who have been allowed to leave are dual citizens or foreign citizens with a permanent residence.
If you want to go overseas, it should be for only the most extraordinary of reasons at this point in time. Not to go overseas for a wedding. Even to go overseas for a funeral. We have to be a lot tougher in relation to letting people out of Australia.

If you can't see home quarantine working, you certainly shouldn't cop this either. Citizens and permanent residents do not have a right to re-import this virus and especially not a right to import variants of concern. The delta variant only came here because of people recently going to India and then coming back Delta positive.
Myrtone
You may think the rules are too relaxed, but the fact is they are amongst the most harsh anywhere in the world at least amongst democracies.

Not only do we prevent citizens leaving without an exemption we don't allow citizens who are permanent residents in other countries to return to those countries once they are here...effectively they don't even want Australians who have PR overseas to return at all...

I am not arguing one way or the other, only pointing out that Australia most certainly doesn't have relaxed travel restrictions.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
If you can't see home quarantine working,
Mytone
Home quarantine didn't work because it had more leaks in it that the Titanic.  People given orders to stay home early on were caught out and and about, it was a night mare to police and consuming huge resources.

In Abu Dhabi they had a better system for home quarantine. Each adult was fitted with a watch type tracker that is not to be removed by law, its linked to your phone and provides live feedback of your location. $15,000 fine for removal or interfering and even removing the app from your phone. PCR tests are provided on scheduled days at your door.

On day (I think) 12 if PCR is clear, you get an sms saying you are free to leave your house and remove the watch and delete the app.

While I support this, I don't think Australia was about to go down this path. Also it doesn't prevent people from visiting you, where is in the UAE the law still says no visitors but the consequences for doing so is more severe and hence taken more seriously so people tend to be more compliant.

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