The 'renewable' energy thread -

 
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
H2 will never be widely used in cars or light commerical because EV's are inhertiantly simpler and cheaper. The exception maybe vehciles constantly 24h use.

As for full life cycle energy efficency, I would like to see that compared against petrol or gas.
Yes, for heavy vehicles H2 is the way to go.  As for efficiency:
Fuel cells are about 65%
Electrolysis is 80%
Hence around 50%, but that doesn't take into account fuel transport and so forth.

Cost is the other big issue for H2.  Scaling up and further efficiency gains should see that end up being closer to current diesel costs within a decade or so.
Carnot
The argument I hear for H2 in cars in reference to Australia is long distance travel. ie driving to Bourke. Where are the fast chargers?

The argument I have for H2 in cars is that for accessing places like Bourke, you need to replicate the entire petrol/diesel distribution chain. When will a fuel station in Bourke have a H2 bowser?

Meanwhile Mrs Average living and working in Bourke can charge her EV at home. As for long distance driving, yes Fast Chargers will be needed and majorty roll out will take another 5 - 10 years before its comes close to replicating the fuel industry, but are also relatively cheap to install and can be done at any locaton where there is access to sufficent electrical supply with far less regulation and costs than fuel stations. Opens the doors for other businesses to attract customers. For remote areas this may mean diesel generators, but who cares, its an exception, not a rule.

As for 4x4, off the beaten track stuff (something I do), EV's are many years away on this one, but again as exception, not a rule, who cares. No one ever said the world should be rid of ALL ICE vehicles or even coal power stations, just reduce most of the Head Count when and where practical to do so.

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  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
WA managed to look after its domestic requirements, Qld should have done the same as projects approved by Qld govt. I wouldn't put Gillard on the chopping block for this alone.

EDIT

Boral exited the Brick business and sold out to Brickworks for which the owner repeatitly said it was cheaper to import from USA but I cannot find a reference to say it was done on a large scale.

In WA which didn't suffer from high gas prices theys till closed local manufactiring and import tiles and bricks from Spain, claiming it was cheaper to import tiles from Spain than export excess production to the East Coast. No references to gas prices.

Other issues for local brick manufacturers is similar to the car industry. Gone are the days when everyone has the same car, just different colour, same with bricks. Also the tonnes of bricks per house has been in decline for two decades as other materials are being used in partial or fully. Gone are the days of a full brick house, often double briocked down stairs, bricks are now more used for decorative purposes.
So house bricks are only cosmetic? Wow, didn't know that interesting fact.

I keep returning to this pearler on this very thread on July 18th:
I'm out of this thread and lounge permanently. Enjoy life in the south Don.
I correctly predicted at the time that it wouldn't last... and I was right.

Is there anything I don't know? Wink
Yes, why is the most common house design in Australia from the 60's through to the 2000's was called, wait for it, "Brick Veneer". The brick provides no structural support to the house rather tied to the timber or steel frame to stop it falling over. Hell now they have half and even smaller brick thicknesses to reduce cost. If you want structual loading brick walls they need to be double bricked.

Don, how many times have you said you were leaving or not talking to me again? Mmm Don, Mmm.......

What you don't know wouldn't even fit into French Submarine.
RTT_Rules
Yeah I just find you quite annoying at times but I don't think I've ever said I'm leaving this board, don't think I'm that impulsive or silly.

My issue is that you never acknowledge when someone else is right, do you RTT_Rules, like when I proved that there was a hundred billion dollar price tag attached to upgrading our HV network to accommodate rubbish green energy. Didn't have the good grace to give me that, instead continued to complain like a petulant child.

THAT'S why I generally avoid talking to you.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
hydrogen can … extremely explosive.
don_dunstan
Hydrogen’s propensity for detonation is about the only thing in chemistry that is truly terrifying to me. Maybe as an industrial fuel source, but there are quite some meat head truckies and even rail operators that I would not allow within large distance of a hydrogen fuelling station. It would certainly not be wise to allow soccer mums to absent mindedly fill up at a station.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
The cybertruck is almost certainly a joke, as is most of what Musk says.

His biggest joke though was the electric vtol ‘jet’ and his semi.

Even if the subject of Carnot’s article is viable, 1000 cycles for the battery!!! Yay, so every Tesla semi is going need a battery change every three years - no trucker used to replacing little more than tires, fluids and filters in the first decade of their new truck is going to accept that.
Cybertruck I would say not, the development time was always going to be around 5 years and needed a factory to be built which is I think nearing completion. Musk himself admitts he has an issue in predicting time frames and really needs to let other speak on his behalf with this.

Cybertruck intentionally moves away from convential "light truck" design and uses new materials not normally used in car manufacture, pretty much like Starship and many ways Falcon 9. Hence innovation takes time and also battery manfufacturing rates needs to catch up as even Powerwall 3 has been delayed and production rates of Powerwall 2  have limited due to limited battery supply caused by the boom in EV's and utililty battery storage. There will never be a Cyber truck parked in my driveway, that shape and look isn't my thing, but others do like it and it will sell as shown by the upfront orders.

Tesla semi, its down on the priorty list, not held back by technology but again by batteries and will start production late this year or early next year. There are over 2000 on order with some very high profile brands part of them, it would be a PR disastor for Tesla to F-this up. However again I don't think the semi is a one size fits all by any means and certainly not intended for the high daily distance trucking operations. For example in Iceland (just came back from) a semi is limited by speed, distance and roads to about 400 - 600 km per day

The plane, yeah well this is obviously a long-term plan. Interestingly the first electric plane in commerical service (not Tesla) starts this or next year.

Again personal view is that regarding EV's, its not about CO2 reduction as we can argue this isn't or is real over the lifetime, but they do and will dramatically increase air quality and noise levels at the street level, which for me is a major win. The ability to not pay someone else for your energy is also obviously attractive to those who feel ripped off by the oil industry, which is almost national past-time in Australian media and many parts of the community.
RTT_Rules
2000 Tesla semis on order? Wow, it was announced four years ago and 2000 people want them - Elon will be rich! (Scania BUILT 93,000 vehicles - mostly trucks, last year).

400-600km per day limitation in Iceland? Maybe, I won’t disagree, but it doesn’t matter which country you live in, if you buy a Tesla semi that’ll be about your daily limit too. Unless you want to stop and charge your truck twice a day and hence replace the battery in 18 months.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Nuclear power is on the way folks!

This is the most awesome news I have read in two years.

https://amp.abc.net.au/article/100465628
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
2000 Tesla semis on order? Wow, it was announced four years ago and 2000 people want them - Elon will be rich! (Scania BUILT 93,000 vehicles - mostly trucks, last year).

400-600km per day limitation in Iceland? Maybe, I won’t disagree, but it doesn’t matter which country you live in, if you buy a Tesla semi that’ll be about your daily limit too. Unless you want to stop and charge your truck twice a day and hence replace the battery in 18 months.
Aaron
You expect a brand new technology prime mover to sell as big as others in their first year of sales when not even one has been delivered before?

As I stated before, the technology isn't for everyone, yet. In should be obvious the EV market for all classes cars and trucks will take over a 20 years to fully develop simply because of limitations in designers, tooling changes etc. Tesla themselves can only release a new model every 3 years. Then there's the issue of battery production which within a decade had the likes of Tesla require more Li batteries just for them than the world made in 2015.

Studies of EV used in Taxi and other similar services being charged on Fast Chargers every day would indicate longer life batteries than your worst case senario's.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Nuclear power is on the way folks!

This is the most awesome news I have read in two years.

https://amp.abc.net.au/article/100465628
Aaron
Could be the start of a new nuclear industry in Australia. This 'net zero' thing will be technically impossible without nuclear power.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Nuclear power is on the way folks!

This is the most awesome news I have read in two years.

https://amp.abc.net.au/article/100465628
Could be the start of a new nuclear industry in Australia. This 'net zero' thing will be technically impossible without nuclear power.
don_dunstan
Could be but I doubt very much a decision or requirement to make a decision for nuclear power will happen this side of 2030 as there are other solutions in plan / under construction to manage the closure of the next 3 coal fired power stations.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
hydrogen can … extremely explosive.
Hydrogen’s propensity for detonation is about the only thing in chemistry that is truly terrifying to me. Maybe as an industrial fuel source, but there are quite some meat head truckies and even rail operators that I would not allow within large distance of a hydrogen fuelling station. It would certainly not be wise to allow soccer mums to absent mindedly fill up at a station.
Aaron
I once saw a demonstration of the power of hydrogen at a university lecture when a party balloon with hydrogen in it was blown up with a candle - the explosion was huge, not at all what anyone (but the lecturer) was expecting. That stuff is potent.

The extremely corrosive nature of the gas is one of the main problems so I've been reading, nothing can insulate that well against it and you have to replace pipes and containers on a regular basis or risk a leak and a huge explosion. We can't pin our hopes on a technical breakthrough that may or may not occur in the future - if we seriously aren't allowed to use coal or gas then there's got to be a large scale nuclear plant (preferably three or four nationally) to power the NEM, otherwise there'll be regular blackouts.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
hydrogen can … extremely explosive.
Hydrogen’s propensity for detonation is about the only thing in chemistry that is truly terrifying to me. Maybe as an industrial fuel source, but there are quite some meat head truckies and even rail operators that I would not allow within large distance of a hydrogen fuelling station. It would certainly not be wise to allow soccer mums to absent mindedly fill up at a station.
I once saw a demonstration of the power of hydrogen at a university lecture when a party balloon with hydrogen in it was blown up with a candle - the explosion was huge, not at all what anyone (but the lecturer) was expecting. That stuff is potent.

The extremely corrosive nature of the gas is one of the main problems so I've been reading, nothing can insulate that well against it and you have to replace pipes and containers on a regular basis or risk a leak and a huge explosion. We can't pin our hopes on a technical breakthrough that may or may not occur in the future - if we seriously aren't allowed to use coal or gas then there's got to be a large scale nuclear plant (preferably three or four nationally) to power the NEM, otherwise there'll be regular blackouts.
don_dunstan
Ever sent balloon of acetylene over a camp fire?

For the car sector, hydrogen embrittlement/corrision wouldn't be a huge drama as the number of parts exposed to the high pressure H2 is very small and easy to set replacement requirements that are checked as part of annual registration or other regulation.

For heavy industry, well you'd be surprised what uses large amounts of H2 now including coal and natural gas power stations. Near the centre of our two largest cities are two plants that produce and then consume large amounts of H2 and have done for decades.

Some rockets use H2 in the first stage as as Delta IV Heavy and manage not to go bang.

Yes its highly flamable and explosive, but not much worse than many other things in our daily lives and in some regards actually safer than heavyier than air combustion gases as it doesn't pool in low points. Having worked with both H2 and Chlorine plants, give me H2 any day of the week.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Ever sent balloon of acetylene over a camp fire?

For the car sector, hydrogen embrittlement/corrision wouldn't be a huge drama as the number of parts exposed to the high pressure H2 is very small and easy to set replacement requirements that are checked as part of annual registration or other regulation.

For heavy industry, well you'd be surprised what uses large amounts of H2 now including coal and natural gas power stations. Near the centre of our two largest cities are two plants that produce and then consume large amounts of H2 and have done for decades.

Some rockets use H2 in the first stage as as Delta IV Heavy and manage not to go bang.

Yes its highly flamable and explosive, but not much worse than many other things in our daily lives and in some regards actually safer than heavyier than air combustion gases as it doesn't pool in low points. Having worked with both H2 and Chlorine plants, give me H2 any day of the week.
RTT_Rules
We had a Chemistry teacher at high school who every year enjoyed igniting an Acetylene balloon on the school oval as a class demonstration.  It sent a nice shockwave through the school grounds to rattle the windows, make everyone jump, and the girls scream.

Worth mentioning too that Ammonia has been touted as a storage medium for H2.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
We had a Chemistry teacher at high school who every year enjoyed igniting an Acetylene balloon on the school oval as a class demonstration.  It sent a nice shockwave through the school grounds to rattle the windows, make everyone jump, and the girls scream.

Worth mentioning too that Ammonia has been touted as a storage medium for H2.
Carnot
Not sure if they were use ammonia for fuel stations, but a tank of H2 at a petrol station out in the open like LPG is now isn't a major drama, any leaks quickly rise away where as LPG disperses at ground level.

Working on hydrogen systems however does require special tools to avoid sparking.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
A big breakthrough in Lithium-Sulphur batteries at Monash University:

https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2021/09/sugar-batteries-could-soon-power-electronics-evs/
Carnot

Yes, the female, former Iranian immigrant scientist was on Virginia Trioli's show on 774 (3LO) this morning. Astonishing news from this wonder scientist. Sugar and carbon, something like that...just amazing.

Mike.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Alkynes are not even close to the detonation power of hydrogen. 4% alkyne in air, probably not a problem, 4% hydrogen in air? You have a problem.

Every ‘experiment’ ever in igniting acetylene uses a lit splint, get yourself a high concentration of H2 and oxygen/air in a balloon and you can detonate the gas by simply busting the balloon. The energy required for ignition to detonation is just not even close.

I think I have mentioned before, I am not at all risk adverse in science or what I undertake ‘in the lab’, but when I have hydrogen around it’s 100% focus and no smeg around.

Sure, the Delta IV was LH2 propelled, but it was also never an average idiot within a mile or two of it whilst fuelling or fuelled.

If you want to drive your H2 car miles out of suburbia to park, walk a mile or two away, have it professionally fuelled then walk back to collect it be my guest. If you’re comparing a car to a DIVH then this is basically what you’re talking about.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Alkynes are not even close to the detonation power of hydrogen. 4% alkyne in air, probably not a problem, 4% hydrogen in air? You have a problem.

Every ‘experiment’ ever in igniting acetylene uses a lit splint, get yourself a high concentration of H2 and oxygen/air in a balloon and you can detonate the gas by simply busting the balloon. The energy required for ignition to detonation is just not even close.

I think I have mentioned before, I am not at all risk adverse in science or what I undertake ‘in the lab’, but when I have hydrogen around it’s 100% focus and no smeg around.

Sure, the Delta IV was LH2 propelled, but it was also never an average idiot within a mile or two of it whilst fuelling or fuelled.

If you want to drive your H2 car miles out of suburbia to park, walk a mile or two away, have it professionally fuelled then walk back to collect it be my guest. If you’re comparing a car to a DIVH then this is basically what you’re talking about.
Aaron
YEs, however there are now self served H2 refueling stations in USA and UK and no doubt others and yes in small numbers. Not sure of the incidents that have occured.

I agree the the energy required to ignite H2 is much lower, hence the need for I think its bronze or brass tools. But its also doesn't pool and disperses quickly due to its significanly lower desnity. In a lab, you don't have such benefits of dispersion. At a fuel station, you do. Note the Delta IV ignites the leaking and purged H2 prior to maine engine ignition and the flame most certainly always straight up, which is a nice demonstration where even cryo hydrogen goes once it escapes.

Personally I wouldn't own a H2 vehicle. I don't see the need, EV and PHEV for me offers a practical alternative to diesel and petrol and where they don't, H2 doesn't always fill the gaps either and driving around with a 10 Mpa or what ever fuel tank is not my thing and I suspect most feel the same. However for industrial applications such a electricty generation,a gain we are in a controlled environment and rules are different there. Also for heavy vehilce operation, I think there has been enough testing of H2 buses to show its fine.
  303gunner Train Controller

Nuclear power is on the way folks!

This is the most awesome news I have read in two years.

https://amp.abc.net.au/article/100465628
Aaron
Well, if that's what it takes to get inside the WA Border, so be it!
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Nuclear power is on the way folks!

This is the most awesome news I have read in two years.

https://amp.abc.net.au/article/100465628
Well, if that's what it takes to get inside the WA Border, so be it!
303gunner
I'm in Perth at the moment so it's not that hard to get here....
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Actually that's not true, you had to fill out a form saying you definitely weren't from Melbourne or Sydney... for some reason they don't want those people here at the moment. Not sure why?
  303gunner Train Controller

Actually that's not true, you had to fill out a form saying you definitely weren't from Melbourne or Sydney... for some reason they don't want those people here at the moment. Not sure why?
don_dunstan
Why don't you Google it?
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Actually that's not true, you had to fill out a form saying you definitely weren't from Melbourne or Sydney... for some reason they don't want those people here at the moment. Not sure why?
Why don't you Google it?
303gunner
I plead the Railpage defense of 'can't use Google'.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
Nuclear power is on the way folks!

This is the most awesome news I have read in two years.

https://amp.abc.net.au/article/100465628
Well, if that's what it takes to get inside the WA Border, so be it!
I'm in Perth at the moment so it's not that hard to get here....
don_dunstan

Had enough of you in Adelaide hey...peoples patience wears thin with imposters after a while and in your case, a very short while.

M.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Nuclear power is on the way folks!

This is the most awesome news I have read in two years.

https://amp.abc.net.au/article/100465628
Well, if that's what it takes to get inside the WA Border, so be it!
I'm in Perth at the moment so it's not that hard to get here....

Had enough of you in Adelaide hey...peoples patience wears thin with imposters after a while and in your case, a very short while.

M.
The Vinelander
It's called FRIENDS, Mike. i wouldn't expect you to understand since you don't have any.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Fortescue finished down 12% yesterday and the iron ore price hovering around AU$100 - seems pretty likely that it will end up around the $60 mark in which case the Aussie dollar is going to be in serious trouble. Everyone's imported fancies are going to go up in price...
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: Standing at the limit of an endless ocean
Don't shoot the messenger - Frydenberg, in Morrison's absence, has declared support for reaching net zero by 2050. The penny has finally dropped that it would be far more expensive to not commit; something that most intelligent people have known for years.

Treasurer Josh Frydenberg publicly backs net zero by 2050 target, as government inches towards commitment - ABC News
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
We're dooming ourselves to energy shortages and blackouts if we follow that path - just like England is at the moment - Open Democracy;



The article that's attached blames the current energy crisis in the UK on several things including:
  • Too much reliance on gas as an energy source
  • Fragmentation of the energy sector due to privatisation of natural monopolies
  • Increasing use of imported energy sources including LNG from overseas and French nuclear electricity
But one fact that they gloss over rather quickly is the fact that Britain's wind energy supplies have been failing miserably over the last six months - Bloomberg;

Electricity prices soared to a record in Britain as a period of still weather is curbing wind power, exposing the U.K.’s reliance on intermittent renewables.

U.K. power for next day exceed 400 pounds ($553) a megawatt-hour at an auction on Monday, an all-time high. Wind generation is currently below normal, accounting for about 11% of all the electricity entering the grid. That’s leaving the market exposed to swings at a time five nuclear units are offline.

The U.K.’s ability to meet peak demand was already set to shrink this winter as coal and nuclear power stations close early. The outlook has worsened as low wind speeds have forced Britain to rely more on fossil fuels to produce power at a time Europe is facing a shortage of gas and coal prices are surging.

People - especially the elderly and the poor - are going to freeze to death in their homes in the UK this winter and the cause will be renewable energy.

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