Time for some green power and electrification for Victoria

 
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
With all the talk about green power for Yarra trams and now metro trains what plans does the government have for electrification to Geelong and Bendigo etc. ?

Must be time to get moving on the RRL and to Geelong and maybe sale ?

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  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
I'd still like to know the source of Yarra Trams' green power and how they filter the green supply out from the naughty ones.
  Upven Train Controller

I'd still like to know the source of Yarra Trams' green power and how they filter the green supply out from the naughty ones.
Valvegear
Semantics of their press release aside, you know it's not what they mean. It's that they're only paying for an electricity retailer that pays for green power to be supplied to the grid. & it's the Numurkah Solar Farm.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Fixed!
Paint the pantographs and master controller knobs green. Rolling Eyes
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Only regional line likely to justify electrification pax wise is Geelong and still years away.  Electrification requires capex on new trains and new electrical infrastructure, plus maintenance costs are then higher as you have to maintain not only the track but also the electric overhead and substations.

Other regional lines eventually will go green hydrogen using a train like the Coradia Lint hydrogen train already in use in Austria and soon to be introduced IIRC in  France and possibly Italia.
  RustyRick Chief Commissioner

Location: South West Vic
Biodiesel in the short - medium term would make sense. If Vline could source enough.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

VLine really needs to be buying bi-mode trains, should've been since the 2010s. That way, you don't get locked into not electrifying due to your rollingstock and can electrify as frequency demands without needing to change consists. Once new rolling stock is required you can re-assess if you still need bi-mode or can do with overhead only.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Only regional line likely to justify electrification pax wise is Geelong and still years away.  Electrification requires capex on new trains and new electrical infrastructure, plus maintenance costs are then higher as you have to maintain not only the track but also the electric overhead and substations.
kuldalai

I cannot agree with this statement, there are almost 10m passenger journeys on the Geelong Line per annum making it perfect for electrification and more importantly to reduce carbon emissions and noise and also the pollution at Southern Cross.

Years away if it is only highlights the mess this state is in when we can find $20b+ for a road project about not $150m for electrification for the busiest regional line in the state.  I have to agree with Bill it is time.
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
Biodiesel in the short - medium term would make sense. If Vline could source enough.
RustyRick
Too busy buying BP premium diesel in the short term
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Only regional line likely to justify electrification pax wise is Geelong and still years away.  Electrification requires capex on new trains and new electrical infrastructure, plus maintenance costs are then higher as you have to maintain not only the track but also the electric overhead and substations.

I cannot agree with this statement, there are almost 10m passenger journeys on the Geelong Line per annum making it perfect for electrification and more importantly to reduce carbon emissions and noise and also the pollution at Southern Cross.

Years away if it is only highlights the mess this state is in when we can find $20b+ for a road project about not $150m for electrification for the busiest regional line in the state.  I have to agree with Bill it is time.
bevans
Maybe a new calculator Brian. $150M ??

15km to Sunbury cost $270M, and that was 10 years ago. Plus 35km being re-done for $1.4B to cater for more trains.

What does that cost for 80km to Waurn Ponds?
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
The Gawler line in Adelaide is shorter than Melbourne Geelong and that was costed at $500+M.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Maybe a new calculator Brian. $150M ??

15km to Sunbury cost $270M, and that was 10 years ago. Plus 35km being re-done for $1.4B to cater for more trains.

What does that cost for 80km to Waurn Ponds?
justarider

I was thinking from Sunshine to Geelong but I guess it could be longer?
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

Maybe a new calculator Brian. $150M ??

15km to Sunbury cost $270M, and that was 10 years ago. Plus 35km being re-done for $1.4B to cater for more trains.

What does that cost for 80km to Waurn Ponds?

I was thinking from Sunshine to Geelong but I guess it could be longer?
bevans
So geelong goes into the Metro tunnel? Or does a diesel engine tow the train from sunshine to the city?

Either option is absurd given the constraints.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Maybe a new calculator Brian. $150M ??

15km to Sunbury cost $270M, and that was 10 years ago. Plus 35km being re-done for $1.4B to cater for more trains.

What does that cost for 80km to Waurn Ponds?

I was thinking from Sunshine to Geelong but I guess it could be longer?
So geelong goes into the Metro tunnel? Or does a diesel engine tow the train from sunshine to the city?

Either option is absurd given the constraints.
John.Z

John Z that is of course the benefit of electrifying Geelong.  You could also have through trains via the loop.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
You can't do half the job, you do it all. This means from Southern Cross to Waurn Ponds. Whether that is via Sunshine, or through Newport & Footscray or via a future Metro 2, it doesn't matter, it needs to be done end to end.

To me, it would seem really stupid to put Geelong trains back on to suburban tracks after spending Millions (or was it Billions?) in separating them less than 10 years ago.


In a perfect world, the Geelong and Ballarat lines at the very least would both be fully sparked, but just as with everything else transport related in this state, it is in the long queue of things to do, I'm sure it will happen eventually, but money doesn't grow on trees and all that.
  Tii Junior Train Controller

Early days yet but hydrogen powered hybrids are used in Europe for just a handful of medium routes- Geelong would be in the realms of that. Rather then money on OLE to Geelong and Ballarat- maybe diesel can continue a few more years until the next generation fleet is purchased on hybrid hydrogen/electric traction for medium distance to Geelong/Ballarat. The Velocity fleet has more than a decade in it- so why not wait and see how it develops over 5 years before starting an electrification program.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Only regional line likely to justify electrification pax wise is Geelong and still years away.  Electrification requires capex on new trains and new electrical infrastructure, plus maintenance costs are then higher as you have to maintain not only the track but also the electric overhead and substations.

I cannot agree with this statement, there are almost 10m passenger journeys on the Geelong Line per annum making it perfect for electrification and more importantly to reduce carbon emissions and noise and also the pollution at Southern Cross.

Years away if it is only highlights the mess this state is in when we can find $20b+ for a road project about not $150m for electrification for the busiest regional line in the state.  I have to agree with Bill it is time.
bevans

I agree that it is time for Geelong to get electrified. It is time for the Ballarat line to also get electrified. If Lithgow and Kiama on  the Sydney network is electrified then sparking to these 2 should be a no brainer. These are the 2 busiest regional lines and they share the tracks out to Deer Park station. Atleast this wouldn't cost $100 billion like the sydney melbourne high speed rail and it would be ferrying more passengers after this pandemic is over then that system would.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Only regional line likely to justify electrification pax wise is Geelong and still years away.  Electrification requires capex on new trains and new electrical infrastructure, plus maintenance costs are then higher as you have to maintain not only the track but also the electric overhead and substations.

I cannot agree with this statement, there are almost 10m passenger journeys on the Geelong Line per annum making it perfect for electrification and more importantly to reduce carbon emissions and noise and also the pollution at Southern Cross.

Years away if it is only highlights the mess this state is in when we can find $20b+ for a road project about not $150m for electrification for the busiest regional line in the state.  I have to agree with Bill it is time.

I agree that it is time for Geelong to get electrified. It is time for the Ballarat line to also get electrified. If Lithgow and Kiama on  the Sydney network is electrified then sparking to these 2 should be a no brainer. These are the 2 busiest regional lines and they share the tracks out to Deer Park station. Atleast this wouldn't cost $100 billion like the sydney melbourne high speed rail and it would be ferrying more passengers after this pandemic is over then that system would.
simstrain
Err yer nah.

That's the trouble with jumping into solution , before analyzing the problem.

Electrification of NSW regional is so 1970s. High speed Europe so 2000s.

Absolutely no doubt deisel trains are past their "use by".
OLE are really expensiive, especially for relatively low volume services..

But smarter methods are around. Hydrogen, Battery,  Hybrid, lacker bands, who knows?

cheers
John
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

Err yer nah.

That's the trouble with jumping into solution , before analyzing the problem.

Electrification of NSW regional is so 1970s. High speed Europe so 2000s.

Absolutely no doubt deisel trains are past their "use by".
OLE are really expensiive, especially for relatively low volume services..

But smarter methods are around. Hydrogen, Battery,  Hybrid, lacker bands, who knows?

cheers
John
justarider
Lacker bands probably the most likely of the 3 options you presented there.

OLE is only expensive in Victoria because we insist on using 750V DC and 1500V DC. If we used 20kV AC or something similar you could get away with one sub station between Werribee and North Geelong at Lara.

Pollies won't electrify because that means having to buy new rollingstock and as we know, VLine would prefer to hang onto those H cars till they turn 100.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Err yer nah.

That's the trouble with jumping into solution , before analyzing the problem.

Electrification of NSW regional is so 1970s. High speed Europe so 2000s.

Absolutely no doubt deisel trains are past their "use by".
OLE are really expensiive, especially for relatively low volume services..

But smarter methods are around. Hydrogen, Battery,  Hybrid, lacker bands, who knows?

cheers
John
Lacker bands probably the most likely of the 3 options you presented there.

OLE is only expensive in Victoria because we insist on using 750V DC and 1500V DC. If we used 20kV AC or something similar you could get away with one sub station between Werribee and North Geelong at Lara.

Pollies won't electrify because that means having to buy new rollingstock and as we know, VLine would prefer to hang onto those H cars till they turn 100.
John.Z
so... the other 3 options being operational and growing throughout Europe isn't real?

Bombardier (the builders of V/Locity) are rolling out the Talent 3 battery/OLE hybrid.
Range of 100km and 10 minute recharge. A doddle for Waurn Ponds, Ballarat, Bendigo.

yes OLE is expensive. Based upon Sunbury, probably $2B to $3B. Plus the regular upkeep.

Generally 25K is the better option, with about 1/3 the number of substations, but what to do once you're inside the existing Metro boundary overlapping the existing 1500.

Whether it's 25Kv AC or 1500V DC is a minor difference to build.
More smaller substation (1500) or fewer large substation (25K).
Both need to be supplied by a full length HIGH voltage network(66Kv ?) which is a big additional cost.

Only 1 substation at Lara is dreamland. Try maybe 6. Each 15km -note that SRL has 2 for 25km.
Not forgetting the actual finish point is Waurn Ponds , 80km from Melbourne.

I just don't get why you are bagging pollies .
Many $BILLIONS are going into the network, not necessarily on your favorites - tough.

cheers
John
  8502 Chief Train Controller


I agree that it is time for Geelong to get electrified. It is time for the Ballarat line to also get electrified. If Lithgow and Kiama on  the Sydney network is electrified then sparking to these 2 should be a no brainer. These are the 2 busiest regional lines and they share the tracks out to Deer Park station. At least this wouldn't cost $100 billion like the sydney melbourne high speed rail and it would be ferrying more passengers after this pandemic is over then that system would.
simstrain

My point too and would relieve two lines from Southern Cross Railway Station of pollution which is extreme and will as I have noted in another thread is a ticking time bomb.

The government needs to move now on Ballarat and Geelong (at the very least) but then how far into Geelong and Ballarat?

Would you do Wendouree?
  Tii Junior Train Controller

If we were replacing our current rolling stock tomorrow, then electrification on some routes would suit it. If the Velocity replacements are still a decade away, then other options might be more appropriate in 5-8 years to see what is affordable, practical and capable with the newer technologies coming online overseas. My 2 cents worth with no expertise.
  Dissonance Station Master

Why doesn’t V/Line electrify regional rail link at 25kV AC to at least Geelong, Ballarat & Bendigo. The trains sourced could be dual voltage which could be useful if electrification occurs to Seymour or Traralgon.

In many European countries including Sweden, Netherlands & Switzerland much of their rail networks are electrified, even infrequent branch lines. Travelling overseas makes me realise V/Line leaves much to be desired for a fast and comfortable regional rail service
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Why doesn’t V/Line electrify regional rail link at 25kV AC to at least Geelong, Ballarat & Bendigo. The trains sourced could be dual voltage which could be useful if electrification occurs to Seymour or Traralgon.

In many European countries including Sweden, Netherlands & Switzerland much of their rail networks are electrified, even infrequent branch lines. Travelling overseas makes me realise V/Line leaves much to be desired for a fast and comfortable regional rail service
Dissonance

Love that post as exactly how I feel.  I am embarrassed for V/Line.

Victorian regional routes are dense and shorter than most regional routes in other states so they are perfect for that to happen.

Take a look at what we could be using https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/pesa-unveils-first-of-seven-emus-destined-for-regiojet
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Why doesn’t V/Line electrify regional rail link at 25kV AC to at least Geelong, Ballarat & Bendigo. The trains sourced could be dual voltage which could be useful if electrification occurs to Seymour or Traralgon.

In many European countries including Sweden, Netherlands & Switzerland much of their rail networks are electrified, even infrequent branch lines. Travelling overseas makes me realise V/Line leaves much to be desired for a fast and comfortable regional rail service
Dissonance
Don't disagree, however there are some mitigating factors. Firstly it costs $1m/km per track as a starter as a guide. While the there is significant oppurtunity for improving the track alignment, quality and capacity sparking is not a priority on all but Geelong lines.

Also normally if the line is single track, the traffic volume doesn't justify sparking on its own right.

Those EU countries have long established traffic volumes into much high density populations with smaller and cultually less car use and and the current trains under the wire are rarely the first generation. For V/line prior to the Regional Rail upgrade, much of these three lines you mentioned were irregular loco hauled trains with generational old stock. The intial DMU services were just 2 car sets. Extra cars and services have been added with growth. Now the Geelong line is getting close to sparking, there will be a cascade of V/locities to the rest of the state as they are displaced from Geelong services which means no sparking is justfied for a few decades to come.

The energy source, ie diesel vs electric providing the traction to V/locities will not impact on "fast and comfortable regional rail service".

Looking to the future, I don't see sparking of Bendigo and Ballarat likely to ever occur as alt technologies may come to play.

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