The 'renewable' energy thread -

 
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

Don't shoot the messenger - Frydenberg, in Morrison's absence, has declared support for reaching net zero by 2050. The penny has finally dropped that it would be far more expensive to not commit; something that most intelligent people have known for years.

Treasurer Josh Frydenberg publicly backs net zero by 2050 target, as government inches towards commitment - ABC News
DirtyBallast
The LNP have stumbled through 19 energy policies and chopped two prime ministers since coming to power in 2013.
They struggle to meet near term commitments, 2050, is off in the notional never never.

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  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Don't shoot the messenger - Frydenberg, in Morrison's absence, has declared support for reaching net zero by 2050. The penny has finally dropped that it would be far more expensive to not commit; something that most intelligent people have known for years.

Treasurer Josh Frydenberg publicly backs net zero by 2050 target, as government inches towards commitment - ABC News
DirtyBallast
I feel that the commitments now are coming on the back of available technology coming on line identifying a viable pathway and yes increasing acceptance of the support base to go that direction. To do so in say 2015 would be on the basis of vision or ideology rather than science and would be in the same boat as the visionaries who want HSR.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
We're dooming ourselves to energy shortages and blackouts if we follow that path - just like England is at the moment - Open Democracy;



The article that's attached blames the current energy crisis in the UK on several things including:
  • Too much reliance on gas as an energy source
  • Fragmentation of the energy sector due to privatisation of natural monopolies
  • Increasing use of imported energy sources including LNG from overseas and French nuclear electricity
But one fact that they gloss over rather quickly is the fact that Britain's wind energy supplies have been failing miserably over the last six months - Bloomberg;

Electricity prices soared to a record in Britain as a period of still weather is curbing wind power, exposing the U.K.’s reliance on intermittent renewables.

U.K. power for next day exceed 400 pounds ($553) a megawatt-hour at an auction on Monday, an all-time high. Wind generation is currently below normal, accounting for about 11% of all the electricity entering the grid. That’s leaving the market exposed to swings at a time five nuclear units are offline.

The U.K.’s ability to meet peak demand was already set to shrink this winter as coal and nuclear power stations close early. The outlook has worsened as low wind speeds have forced Britain to rely more on fossil fuels to produce power at a time Europe is facing a shortage of gas and coal prices are surging.

People - especially the elderly and the poor - are going to freeze to death in their homes in the UK this winter and the cause will be renewable energy.
don_dunstan
GAs was always the intermediate towards CO2 free, its more efficient than coal and burns a cleaner emission overall.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

The big solar array at Elliott in the NT looks like it'll be bigger than originally planned:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-23/nt-sun-cable-project-solar-farm-cost-size-increase/100487452

And that's just to supply Darwin and 15% of Singapore's power needs.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
The big solar array at Elliott in the NT looks like it'll be bigger than originally planned:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-23/nt-sun-cable-project-solar-farm-cost-size-increase/100487452

And that's just to supply Darwin and 15% of Singapore's power needs.
Carnot
12,000 hectares, an environmental nightmare. Works on the presumption that there's nothing there - in reality thousands of animals will lose their habitat.

  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Frydenburg has said net zero by 2050 because there's an election not far away. As soon as that's over, he can cheerfully forget he ever said it. For the last few months he's been blathering about everything under the sun, whether it concerns his own portfolio or not. He is big noting himself, whilst being very careful to be Morrison's pet yes-man. (Does it show that I can't stand him?)
  Carnot Minister for Railways

The Elliott site is basically a wasteland and heavily degraded. No big deal.

The bigger issue might be recycling the panels in 30 years time.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Frydenburg has said net zero by 2050 because there's an election not far away. As soon as that's over, he can cheerfully forget he ever said it. For the last few months he's been blathering about everything under the sun, whether it concerns his own portfolio or not. He is big noting himself, whilst being very careful to be Morrison's pet yes-man. (Does it show that I can't stand him?)
Valvegear
We should just agree to it and then do nothing like the Chinese and Indians are doing.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Frydenburg has said net zero by 2050 because there's an election not far away. As soon as that's over, he can cheerfully forget he ever said it. For the last few months he's been blathering about everything under the sun, whether it concerns his own portfolio or not. He is big noting himself, whilst being very careful to be Morrison's pet yes-man. (Does it show that I can't stand him?)
Valvegear
Yes and no, its only in the last few years the technology and pathway to RE is starting to stand out and prove itself as a realistic alternative to traditional sources.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The Elliott site is basically a wasteland and heavily degraded. No big deal.

The bigger issue might be recycling the panels in 30 years time.
Carnot
As solar panels age in large enough numbers, investment in recycling options will continue to grow.

I think there is one factory in Adelaide now recycling solar panels.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
The big solar array at Elliott in the NT looks like it'll be bigger than

And that's just to supply Darwin and 15% of Singapore's power needs.
12,000 hectares, an environmental nightmare. Works on the presumption that there's nothing there - in reality thousands of animals will lose their habitat.
don_dunstan
Maybe not so.

There are already studies underway, that elevating the panels gives good shade underneath to promote grass growth and sheep protection.
Use those ideas suitable grazing, or wow maybe even native.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2020-08-25/parkes-solar-panel-sheep-trial-early-positive-results/12581756

cheers
John
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
The price of gas in the UK went up 18% today and the price of electricity in Italy went up a whopping 30%. Nothing at all to do with over-reliance on renewables so we're told...

People will freeze to death in the UK this winter because they're unable to afford to heat their homes - and again, unreliable renewables won't be to blame, it'll be someone else's fault.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

The UK energy crisis is largely due to China hogging Russian gas because of issues with coal (and exacerbated by the CCP diplomatic spat with Australia):
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1500278/China-news-UK-energy-crisis-petrol-shortage-UK-gas-supplies-latest-Beijing-news-vn

Add to that Germany's weird obsession to abandon nuclear power (which is a solution, not a problem).
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The UK energy crisis is largely due to China hogging Russian gas because of issues with coal (and exacerbated by the CCP diplomatic spat with Australia):
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1500278/China-news-UK-energy-crisis-petrol-shortage-UK-gas-supplies-latest-Beijing-news-vn

Add to that Germany's weird obsession to abandon nuclear power (which is a solution, not a problem).
Carnot
Seems China has caused a global knock on effect in energy prices because of their spat with Australia. Also looking at Italy's power mix, RE is still minor. Coal is around 15%, some geo and gas to a total of around 50%. Gas (imported) has been the main source for years. Wind and solar are less than 15% and nearly 20% hydro.


Soaring prices in Italy are part of a rally across Europe, where German and French electricity costs for next year have surged to records. Italian year-ahead power futures traded at 116.85 euros a megawatt-hour on Tuesday, more than double the rates at the start of the year on the European Energy Exchange.
The price gains follow an increase in global demand after the pandemic, while stubbornly low European gas inventories and low coal stockpiles have pushed up fuel costs. The impact is set to grow during the looming cold season.
Italy is particularly vulnerable as it relies on imports to meet over 70% of its energy needs, with almost 40% coming from natural gas.
https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/soaring-italian-power-prices-add-urgency-to-plans-to-curb-bills-1.1655209
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Record natural gas prices in the UK - up another 40% again today to a new all time high - Energy Voice;

Global fuel shortages are disrupting natural gas markets from the UK to China, as economies emerge from the pandemic.

Surging costs are threatening to raise inflation and starting to weigh on industrial production, with some companies in Europe forced to cut output. Concerns over gas storage levels in Europe are building as winter approaches, helping drive prices ever higher.

“The fiercely nervous sentiment on the market continues due to fears of reduced supply during the winter,” trader Energi Danmark said Tuesday.

Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Tuesday there’s “hysteria and some confusion” on European energy markets amid reduced investments into fossil-fuel extraction, according to Interfax news agency.

Europe’s gas stockpiles are at their lowest seasonal level in more than a decade, with domestic production lagging behind demand, while supplies from top seller Russia are limited and global competition for liquefied natural gas continues to intensify.

The wind didn't blow this summer in the UK causing them to use all their supplies of natural gas - now they have almost none left. That's the fundamental cause of this crisis.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Record natural gas prices in the UK - up another 40% again today to a new all time high - Energy Voice;

Global fuel shortages are disrupting natural gas markets from the UK to China, as economies emerge from the pandemic.

Surging costs are threatening to raise inflation and starting to weigh on industrial production, with some companies in Europe forced to cut output. Concerns over gas storage levels in Europe are building as winter approaches, helping drive prices ever higher.

“The fiercely nervous sentiment on the market continues due to fears of reduced supply during the winter,” trader Energi Danmark said Tuesday.

Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Tuesday there’s “hysteria and some confusion” on European energy markets amid reduced investments into fossil-fuel extraction, according to Interfax news agency.

Europe’s gas stockpiles are at their lowest seasonal level in more than a decade, with domestic production lagging behind demand, while supplies from top seller Russia are limited and global competition for liquefied natural gas continues to intensify.

The wind didn't blow this summer in the UK causing them to use all their supplies of natural gas - now they have almost none left. That's the fundamental cause of this crisis.
don_dunstan
Reduced wind is a minor impact and only recently Minor impact.

Even Sky news doesn't label reduced wind to be the main cause, just another yet small straw.

https://news.sky.com/story/energy-crisis-why-gas-prices-have-soared-and-left-uk-facing-prospect-of-food-shortages-12412951
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
Is this the reason the representative from SA was in Perth recently... comparing notes with Billionaire Rinehart on the 'propaganda' of climate change.

https://www.theage.com.au/business/companies/gina-rinehart-warns-of-propaganda-in-climate-denial-video-to-students-20211006-p58xry.html

Mrs Rinehart said the (school) girls should consider influences such as the sun’s orbit, volcanoes and “other scientific facts that I had the benefit of learning when I was at school.

Her comments contrast with moves by the nation’s biggest listed mining companies to adopt climate-friendly positions and strict carbon reduction targets.
Climate-focused non-profit organisation Climate Analytics’ chief executive Bill Hare said Mrs Rinehart’s speech was "shockingly wrong on every single issue she mentions".


Typical greedy Billionaire, in the same mould as Murdoch...it's all about personal wealth and the rest of the planet can go get stuffed.

Mike.
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

Is this the reason the representative from SA was in Perth recently... comparing notes with Billionaire Rinehart on the 'propaganda' of climate change.

https://www.theage.com.au/business/companies/gina-rinehart-warns-of-propaganda-in-climate-denial-video-to-students-20211006-p58xry.html

Mrs Rinehart said the (school) girls should consider influences such as the sun’s orbit, volcanoes and “other scientific facts that I had the benefit of learning when I was at school.

Her comments contrast with moves by the nation’s biggest listed mining companies to adopt climate-friendly positions and strict carbon reduction targets.
Climate-focused non-profit organisation Climate Analytics’ chief executive Bill Hare said Mrs Rinehart’s speech was "shockingly wrong on every single issue she mentions".


Typical greedy Billionaire, in the same mould as Murdoch...it's all about personal wealth and the rest of the planet can go get stuffed.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Have read the article and speech.
Climate change propaganda bad.
Capitalist propaganda good.

There is no middle ground.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Reduced wind is a minor impact and only recently Minor impact.

Even Sky news doesn't label reduced wind to be the main cause, just another yet small straw.

https://news.sky.com/story/energy-crisis-why-gas-prices-have-soared-and-left-uk-facing-prospect-of-food-shortages-12412951
RTT_Rules
Who said Sky News was right about everything? Fortune Magazine 21/9/2021 -

Just as Europe needs energy the most, the wind in the North Sea has stopped blowing, forcing regional energy markets to scramble for gas reserves to heat homes and power businesses...

...The situation is especially acute in the U.K., where wind is currently providing only 7% of the country’s energy makeup—a steep drop from the 25% it generated on average across 2020.

The U.K.’s offshore wind sector had been a success story of the energy transition, drastically cutting emissions by rolling out 24GW of wind power over the past decade—enough to power 7.2 million homes. But as wind slowed and the price of carbon credits rose to record highs, the electricity market has experienced extreme volatility.

“We have very steep targets for increased renewable energy penetration, and the growing problem alongside of that is this fluctuation in prices that we’re seeing,” says Finlay Clark, an offshore wind analyst from Wood Mackenzie.

As a result, gas- and coal-fired electricity plants have been brought online to fill the gap. Gas now makes up more than half of the electricity in the U.K., and while the U.K.’s offshore wind is covered by subsidies and operating at zero marginal cost, gas is not.

See, there's an actual direct line between the fact that the wind didn't blow on the North Sea wind turbines all summer and the current price of gas in the UK - because they were forced to crank up the gas power plants when there were too many high pressure systems and the wind didn't blow on them.

Isn't it wonderful? Living life dependent on the wind blowing or sun shining - there was another problem too apparently in that one of the two undersea HV cables used to supply the UK with relatively cheap French nuclear electricity had failed due to a fire only recently - so that wasn't an option either. The fact that the real issues behind the huge increases in gas and electricity is purposely being obscured by the mainstream media is criminal.

And amazingly really educated people are recommending that we should do even more of the same as the answer - New Civil Engineer -

Energy & Climate Intelligence Unit analyst Jess Ralston told NCE that the price surge is a “wake up call”.

“It does make the case for getting our transition underway and planning for the future energy system because it’s clear we can’t keep relying on fossil fuels – not just for environmental reasons but for economic ones now,” she said.

“In the short term it’s obviously a shock for many families but long term, with the correct planning, it might help speed up the transition.”

Ralston emphasised that the crisis “helps make the case for renewables and this cheap source of energy”.

How dumb is that single statement - the UK needs more of the exact same thing that caused the problem to begin with. But I bet you whole-heartedly agree with that ironic ideological stupid, right RTT_Rules?
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Typical greedy Billionaire, in the same as Murdoch...it's all about personal wealth and the rest of the planet can go get stuffed.
The Vinelander
Yeah but see the real irony here is that you don't even want to freeze people to death because of money, you want to freeze them to death because of some lunatic fringe idea that the planet might warm one or two degrees long after both of us are dead sometime later this century. If you were killing them for money as you accuse Gina Rinehart of doing I'd at least understand that - but instead its like you're just a sadistic nut job who wants the old and poor in the UK to die in order to satisfy your twisted sicko climate change belief that has contaminated your poor little brain.

Poor you, the eternal Jehovah's Witness of this board constantly telling us the world will end.
  Graham4405 The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dalby Qld
Isn't it wonderful? Living life dependent on the wind blowing or sun shining
don_dunstan
Whether you like it or not, all our lives are dependent on the sun shining. We'd freeze to death without it...

That aside, I do understand the point you're attempting to make, and am somewhat in agreement with it!
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
Typical greedy Billionaire, in the same as Murdoch...it's all about personal wealth and the rest of the planet can go get stuffed.
Yeah but see the real irony here is that you don't even want to freeze people to death because of money, you want to freeze them to death because of some lunatic fringe idea that the planet might warm one or two degrees long after both of us are dead sometime later this century. If you were killing them for money as you accuse Gina Rinehart of doing I'd at least understand that - but instead its like you're just a sadistic nut job who wants the old and poor in the UK to die in order to satisfy your twisted sicko climate change belief that has contaminated your poor little brain.

Poor you, the eternal Jehovah's Witness of this board constantly telling us the world will end.
don_dunstan

Idiot...and selfish to the nth degree as well Exclamation

M.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

The French are meanwhile making a fortune with their clean nuclear power plants doing the heavy lifting:


Deutschland was mad to kill its nuclear power industry.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Typical greedy Billionaire, in the same as Murdoch...it's all about personal wealth and the rest of the planet can go get stuffed.
Yeah but see the real irony here is that you don't even want to freeze people to death because of money, you want to freeze them to death because of some lunatic fringe idea that the planet might warm one or two degrees long after both of us are dead sometime later this century. If you were killing them for money as you accuse Gina Rinehart of doing I'd at least understand that - but instead its like you're just a sadistic nut job who wants the old and poor in the UK to die in order to satisfy your twisted sicko climate change belief that has contaminated your poor little brain.

Poor you, the eternal Jehovah's Witness of this board constantly telling us the world will end.

Idiot...and selfish to the nth degree as well Exclamation

M.
The Vinelander
These insane climate change adherents - they're quite happy to witness the suffering and death of the poor for their cause aren't they despite the fact that no model put forward has ever actually been right (ie its a religion).

And that's not stupid and/or selfish?
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Isn't it wonderful? Living life dependent on the wind blowing or sun shining
Whether you like it or not, all our lives are dependent on the sun shining. We'd freeze to death without it...

That aside, I do understand the point you're attempting to make, and am somewhat in agreement with it!
Graham4405
It's the people on the very bottom rung on society who are the ones suffering the most from the determination to switch to expensive, unreliable sources of energy - they're usually totally captive to the grid and have to take whatever price is set.

Its a war on the poor - as usual.

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