Climate Train Travels to Glasgow COP26

 

News article: Climate Train Travels to Glasgow COP26

A special 'Climate Train' operated between the Netherlands and Scotland yesterday carrying passengers to COP26, the international climate change conference, which starts today in Glasgow.

  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
I cannot remember who it was but maybe 5-10 years ago companies and organisations (on reflection one of them might have been Toyota) were going on about planting trees to ‘offset’ their CO2 emissions.

I wrote them a letter and literally called them ‘Dumb Cants’ - but not the PC spelling, and outlined why such offsets were just a pile of - shall we say ‘self gratification’, and yes, I got no positive response.

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  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
Hope it derails Twisted Evil

Nasty piece of work Exclamation
Pot/kettle.
don_dunstan

Par for the course...supporting the derailment of a train.

Yeah good form, any wonder you are treated with utter contempt by most in these pages.

Mike.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I cannot remember who it was but maybe 5-10 years ago companies and organisations (on reflection one of them might have been Toyota) were going on about planting trees to ‘offset’ their CO2 emissions.

I wrote them a letter and literally called them ‘Dumb Cants’ - but not the PC spelling, and outlined why such offsets were just a pile of - shall we say ‘self gratification’, and yes, I got no positive response.
Aaron

Please explain why they don't offset CO2 emissions and how the heck do you get carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere if not for trees and other plant life?
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
@simstrain.
You'll never get a reply if you insult or blaspheme to the person or entity you contact. Why should they bother when you've established your bona-fides by the tone of your communication.

Mike.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Hope it derails Twisted Evil

Nasty piece of work Exclamation
Pot/kettle.

Par for the course...supporting the derailment of a train.

Yeah good form, any wonder you are treated with utter contempt by most in these pages.

Mike.
The Vinelander
I'm not here to make friends with people, I'm here to stir people into thinking for themselves - which is pretty much the antithesis of your comfortable Jason-recliner-and-a-hot-cup-of-tea existence isn't it Mike. Instead of trying to think up a valid response you just whinge about the fact that your little bubble has been burst and you might have to think for a change.

Boo hoo, Greta.

And 'derailing the train' is a metaphor - but again, wouldn't expect you to understand it. Time for your fluffy slippers and a valium.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
@simstrain.
You'll never get a reply if you insult or blaspheme to the person or entity you contact. Why should they bother when you've established your bona-fides by the tone of your communication.

Mike.
The Vinelander
And yet you've been trying that exact strategy for years, sooky-bub.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
@simstrain.
You'll never get a reply if you insult or blaspheme to the person or entity you contact. Why should they bother when you've established your bona-fides by the tone of your communication.

Mike.
And yet you've been trying that exact strategy for years, sooky-bub.
don_dunstan

Strangely I still get replies from the representative from SA even when my comments are not directed at that contributor...but keep going, I realise it's a form of therapy for you.

M.
  GoldenGirl Junior Train Controller


The europeans seem to have forgotten that we have a thing called trees that can offset that pollution that want to get rid off so quickly.

they have run out of coal and import the fuels,  but in some parts they replaced the coal with glue wood trash for the power/hot water stations ..  ie they burn trees in winter ...
viaprojects
Yeah, countries like Finland who like to appear Green, but actually derive most of their electrical power and all their distributed heating by burning their forests.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
I cannot remember who it was but maybe 5-10 years ago companies and organisations (on reflection one of them might have been Toyota) were going on about planting trees to ‘offset’ their CO2 emissions.

I wrote them a letter and literally called them ‘Dumb Cants’ - but not the PC spelling, and outlined why such offsets were just a pile of - shall we say ‘self gratification’, and yes, I got no positive response.

Please explain why they don't offset CO2 emissions and how the heck do you get carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere if not for trees and other plant life?
simstrain
I have already told you…

Trees are not a good way to sequester carbon.

For starters they don’t live forever and then in the best case slowly rot - in the worse case they combust, after intentional felling or in-situ due to forrest fire or similar. Decades of carbon sequestration quite literally up in smoke again.

We want carbon to be sequestered in mineral or elemental form if possible.
Aaron
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

@simstrain.
You'll never get a reply if you insult or blaspheme to the person or entity you contact. Why should they bother when you've established your bona-fides by the tone of your communication.

Mike.
The Vinelander

Who did I insult or blaspheme? I asked if he could explain his theory more.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I have already told you…

Trees are not a good way to sequester carbon.

For starters they don’t live forever and then in the best case slowly rot - in the worse case they combust, after intentional felling or in-situ due to forrest fire or similar. Decades of carbon sequestration quite literally up in smoke again.

We want carbon to be sequestered in mineral or elemental form if possible.
Aaron

Exactly how do you get the carbon into mineral or elemental form if not through trees?

Most of that coal is old rotten animal and plant life crushed into the mineral form you talk of. What other way is their to sequester that carbon if not through trees living or decaying? Trees may not live forever but neither do us humans. Just like us humans new ones come along after old ones have died. That old decaying tree turns in to compost to nurish that new tree or trees. Just look to the mountains around Sydney where the fires ravaged in 2019. All new grass, plant life and trees growing from the ashes just sucking that CO2 in and giving off breathable air.

If anything the 2019 fires showed how incapable our fire fighting capability is. Where our power lines run we should have water pipes also running to provide water to douse fires if say the wires or power poles fail. Instead of pumping our waste water out to sea we should be recycling and pumping it in to the national parks around our city and further west helping to prevent drought and water shortage in the first place.

I don't know of any other means of getting carbon dioxide out of the air except through trees. What other solution is there?
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
@simstrain.
You'll never get a reply if you insult or blaspheme to the person or entity you contact. Why should they bother when you've established your bona-fides by the tone of your communication.

Mike.
And yet you've been trying that exact strategy for years, sooky-bub.

Strangely I still get replies from the representative from SA even when my comments are not directed at that contributor...but keep going, I realise it's a form of therapy for you.

M.
The Vinelander
But see there you are lecturing people on the essential nature of manners - of which you have none. Irony isn't your strong point is it Mike...
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
The europeans seem to have forgotten that we have a thing called trees that can offset that pollution that want to get rid off so quickly.

they have run out of coal and import the fuels,  but in some parts they replaced the coal with glue wood trash for the power/hot water stations ..  ie they burn trees in winter ...
Yeah, countries like Finland who like to appear Green, but actually derive most of their electrical power and all their distributed heating by burning their forests.
GoldenGirl
Trees are not a good way to sequester carbon. For starters they don’t live forever and then in the best case slowly rot - in the worse case they combust, after intentional felling or in-situ due to forrest fire or similar. Decades of carbon sequestration quite literally up in smoke again. We want carbon to be sequestered in mineral or elemental form if possible.
Aaron
Unless you purposely bury the timber in an attempt for it to become coal for future generations of people hundreds of millennia away - then yes, that's right, the carbon stored in trees inevitably gets released again. Some idiot on Twitter said the other day 'the only acceptable level of carbon in the atmosphere is zero' - oblivious to the fact that carbon is essential for life on earth. In fact low levels of carbon (below 200ppm) are connected to ice age conditions where plants simply don't get enough carbon to be able to function properly.

Having said that I support the general idea of planting more trees to keep the carbon cycle moving - it's just that the sale of carbon credits for said trees and the long term harvesting/re-use of that space needs to be properly accounted for, not just disappearing into the ether...
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Simstrain, I am in no mood to supply you with a free chemistry lesson.

Coal (or 'compressed soot') is what I was more or less referring to when I suggested elemental carbon, as for minerals, a dictionary will tell you what a mineral is and a decent geology textbook will tell you what minerals contain carbon, and a chemistry text will tell you how they’re made.

You also need to do a little reading on what decay does to timber - be most assured that this is not the usual process why which coal is formed.

You know how during a fire many big/large trees burned down? Do you know how much of the new growth is smaller? Think about it, on average, across the nation we generally lost larger trees in the fires when compared to what is currently 'regrowing'. Take a guess at whether a small tree growing contains more  or less carbon than a large tree just before it burned to next to nothing. Don't get it? If you had $100 in your wallet and left it at the train station but found another wallet on the train containing $20 would you be in an improved financial position or a worse one? You're a person in an area with near zero decent clean water, dropping a large bucket of water, whilst celebrating because you managed to catch a cup full in your hands. It's nonsense to consider that regrowing trees post fire is beneficial in a meaningful amount.

Sure, plant life (and for the record, quite little animal life) caused most of the coal/oil we have today to form, but before you suggest that as a solution ponder living through the events that lead to all that plant life being locked up for the formation of coal/oil… It's not by 'decay' or 'rotting'. Do you really think you could, let alone consider that you’d want to if you could, live through those events? There's a good reason we do not have many species surviving today from ages older than the coal/oil we are burning up. Near all life at the time (including vegetation) simply didn't survive the event that triggered the processes enabling the coal/oil to form.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
@simstrain.
You'll never get a reply if you insult or blaspheme to the person or entity you contact. Why should they bother when you've established your bona-fides by the tone of your communication.

Mike.
And yet you've been trying that exact strategy for years, sooky-bub.

Strangely I still get replies from the representative from SA even when my comments are not directed at that contributor...but keep going, I realise it's a form of therapy for you.

M.
But see there you are lecturing people on the essential nature of manners ***SNIP***
don_dunstan

For the benefit of contributors in these pages, letters written to MP's, Ministers and in particular the Premier are automatically ruled out for a reply when the author blasphemes to make a point. Keep it civil and a response will be forthcoming.

It's actually easier for the addressee when the sender blasphemes as no work has to be undertaken to draft a reply, although the letter will be recorded. This is standard form across all governments in Victoria and I assume in other jurisdictions as well.

M.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
For the benefit of contributors in these pages, letters written to MP's, Ministers and in particular the Premier are automatically ruled out for a reply when the author blasphemes to make a point. Keep it civil and a response will be forthcoming.

It's actually easier for the addressee when the sender blasphemes as no work has to be undertaken to draft a reply, although the letter will be recorded. This is standard form across all governments in Victoria and I assume in other jurisdictions as well.

M.
The Vinelander
Newsflash, Mike: This is a chat board, not an official avenue of correspondence for the bureaucracy - you seem confused on this point.

Getting a touch of the Bidens there are you?
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Meanwhile, it seems Biden is pushing to spread more natural gas at COP26

https://apple.news/AmFvyHvPzS9S0F6WojJzlKA

I bet the old horse face who won’t get to become Queen wishes the event was a Skype meeting now…
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Very political answer Aaron but you still haven't answered my question which was if not for trees and plant life how else do we get carbon out of the atmosphere? I'm 30 years out of school and I don't have the want to go back to my high school chemistry but my basic memory tells me that trees take carbon dioxide and water in and through the process of photosynthesis they create oxygen and energy.

So I am asking is there some other new miraculous way we can get carbon dioxide out of the air and turn it in to Oxygen?
  viaprojects Chief Train Controller



So I am asking is there some other new miraculous way we can get carbon dioxide out of the air and turn it in to Oxygen?
simstrain

yes .. but old when you hit the NASA web site .. been doing on the space station for a time ..
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Very political answer Aaron but you still haven't answered my question which was if not for trees and plant life how else do we get carbon out of the atmosphere? I'm 30 years out of school and I don't have the want to go back to my high school chemistry but my basic memory tells me that trees take carbon dioxide and water in and through the process of photosynthesis they create oxygen and energy.

So I am asking is there some other new miraculous way we can get carbon dioxide out of the air and turn it in to Oxygen?
simstrain
Where was the politics in my answer? That was a purely science based answer.

As is this:

We don’t need the oxygen back, we’re not short of oxygen, we have excess carbon to remove.

There will likely always be enough vegetation to provide the planet with oxygen, everything will be dead from other causes before oxygen is the problem.

Even if the oxygen was important, we have more efficient means of regenerating that chemically anyway, the space programs been mentioned, (see the Apollo 13 movie, they literally discuss this very thing in decent detail and build a suitable device in the movie) but even more trivially, every nuclear submarine carries a plant to regenerate oxygen, and every submarine carries other even less technical solutions for use in an emergency preventing surfacing.

I have told you, we mineralise it, any very low (preferably non) soluble carbonate will do it, limestone is but one example, marble being marginally better generally on density, but higher mass metal carbonates with even lower solubility are better.

High carbon weight plastics would be the most ideal, they are insoluble, dense and inert, and could be simply stored, buried, or dumped into the ocean, take your pick it doesn’t matter, but we would need a LOT of excess energy before we go making those to consume atmospheric carbon.
  8502 Chief Train Controller

If you want to lower emissions then lowering transport emissions are an easy target when you have a performing rail system. Australia has a very big carbon footprint when it comes to transport and it should be addressed. Have any thoughts gone into the wiring of the inland rail system with renewable energy to lower emissions and allow for faster running of other train types?  This could make a serious sent in diesel emissions when you move more freight from road to rail.

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