High Capacity Metro Trains (HCMT) Order

 
  route14 Chief Commissioner

What are the rectifications?  Door authorization improvements?

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  Op Kronos Locomotive Fireman

What are the rectifications?  Door authorization improvements?
route14
The doors work fine. It appears that the initial issues were a mixture of software related and people holding them down instead of waiting for the light to turn green before pressing them.
Most of the (in my opinion) over exaggerated claims of the doors not working properly were made by rail enthusiasts who made the reports rather than the general public.

From this thread - https://Railpage.com.au/f-t11403099-s25.htm:

CABLEX were given the wrong wiring diagram, built the wiring board and made and delivered the first 5 completed looms. It wasn't until NO1 was on it's first test run that the problem was discovered. I imagine that NO1 and any of the other first 5 completed will need to be dismantled and new looms fitted. I suspect that will occur once the assembly of MCMT's is complete as it will take time to strip them and remove the old looms.
aussie48
CABLEX being a company based in Oakleigh who apparently are (were?) responsible for making the wiring board/looms for the HCMTs.

According to the quoted post above, the diagram given by I assume Downer Rail(?) was apparently incorrect and supposedly the first 5 HCMTs completed have the incorrect design. This is despite sets 2, 3 and 4 doing plenty of mainline testing without any apparent issues.
Set 1 from what I have been told (inside source) did complete everything required of it but did have some problems.
I have no information on set 5 other than it has done testing at the Pakenham East depot.

This makes me think the affected wiring board/looms are not built according to specification rather than being outright faulty.

Note: @aussie48 whom I quoted has not logged in since September so I am not sure if they are still active here anymore. Also, I am saying apparently as we only have their word to go off on.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

Thanks.
  Op Kronos Locomotive Fireman

Latest update:
03/12/21: Set 3 entered service marking a change from previous where the newest completed sets were entering service within a few months after their transfer from Newport Workshops and is now the earliest delivered set to be accepted for revenue service (previously was set 8)
14/12/21: Set 36 was transferred from Newport Workshops to Pakenham East Depot in the early hours of the morning

~ 17/12/21: Set 12 entered service after doing testing in late November (information from Vicsig which despite updating its' HCMT page recently is still not fully up to date so to speak)
Sets 14 and set 20 have been delegated for high capacity signalling (or communication based train control to be more technical) testing at the Pakenham East Depot and possibly on the Cranbourne/Pakenham Line as well
Sets 17 and 18 are still doing testing on the Mernda line on certain nights between Epping and South Morang (as far as I know).
Set 1 is still getting worked on/patched up at Newport Workshops while work on set 37 has likely commenced now that set 36 is complete.
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
An update, based on what I have been able to glean from various sources.
Sets #3, 12, 13 and 32 all entered service in December
OpKronos' linked webpage has sets #36 and 37, both now in PTV livery. Apparently, according to an earlier post of OpKronos, #36 is at Pakenham, but I haven't seen anything else to verify this - although his/her information is usually spot on.
#33 entered service in January with #34 and #35 both joining it, in service, in February.
On that note, I saw a Youtube clip recently of an SSR P and T hauling a set from Newport towards Pakenham, going through Footscray station, dated within the last two weeks. Unfortunately, the camera used was a mobile phone that had very low resolution so identifying the set was virtually impossible, and the photographer didn't post which set it was, with the footage. Does anyone know what set this might have been? Options include #37, possibly #36 or even #1, after its conversion to 'production'. It's vaguely possible it was #2, although as far as I know, #1 hasn't had its conversion completed.

Neil
  Upven Train Controller

What are the rectifications?  Door authorization improvements?
The doors work fine. It appears that the initial issues were a mixture of software related and people holding them down instead of waiting for the light to turn green before pressing them.
Most of the (in my opinion) over exaggerated claims of the doors not working properly were made by rail enthusiasts who made the reports rather than the general public.

From this thread - https://Railpage.com.au/f-t11403099-s25.htm:

CABLEX were given the wrong wiring diagram, built the wiring board and made and delivered the first 5 completed looms. It wasn't until NO1 was on it's first test run that the problem was discovered. I imagine that NO1 and any of the other first 5 completed will need to be dismantled and new looms fitted. I suspect that will occur once the assembly of MCMT's is complete as it will take time to strip them and remove the old looms.
CABLEX being a company based in Oakleigh who apparently are (were?) responsible for making the wiring board/looms for the HCMTs.

According to the quoted post above, the diagram given by I assume Downer Rail(?) was apparently incorrect and supposedly the first 5 HCMTs completed have the incorrect design. This is despite sets 2, 3 and 4 doing plenty of mainline testing without any apparent issues.
Set 1 from what I have been told (inside source) did complete everything required of it but did have some problems.
I have no information on set 5 other than it has done testing at the Pakenham East depot.

This makes me think the affected wiring board/looms are not built according to specification rather than being outright faulty.

Note: @aussie48 whom I quoted has not logged in since September so I am not sure if they are still active here anymore. Also, I am saying apparently as we only have their word to go off on.
Op Kronos
Doors don't work fine. Hence all the warnings on them saying how you can't press the button until it's green, can't rest on the door, can't push on the door, etc. Good luck seeing that work when they're packed with people again.

If you happen to push the button just before it goes green in that split second, it might just turn red and freeze up and you'll be forced to dart to the next door in the hopes of getting out of the carriage before the train departs. But sure they work fine.
  kapow Junior Train Controller

Location: Melmac
You don’t need to dart to the next door to make sure you get off the train in time, the lockout is a couple of seconds maximum and enough time to press again and walk out the door.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
What would be the next line for these trains ?

Running to Geelong would be a good start via sunshine and Newport with 10 minute frequency via the rrl which should be renamed metro service.
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
Probably none, with the door debacle and the proposed 10-car operation they'll probably be stuck on the Metro Tunnel line for eternity.

Seriously though, how hard is it to program a door to open regardless of whether the button is tapped or held? If door is locked, ignore button; if door is released open door.

Actually, why do Melbourne trains even use non-automatic doors this side of 1990 anyway? The doors should open automatically when released, the button should exist only to reopen a closed (but not locked) door when they have timed out e.g. a train that has been idle at a station with the doors open for >1 minute.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

The Chinese are taking the credit:
  Mickeyb91 Station Staff

Didn’t get a snap because I was on a Werribee service but can confirm set 35 is in the northern siding closest to the Werribee line.
  Mickeyb91 Station Staff

*at Newport.

Sorry can’t find edit button on iPhone
  Upven Train Controller

You don’t need to dart to the next door to make sure you get off the train in time, the lockout is a couple of seconds maximum and enough time to press again and walk out the door.
kapow
Not true, but if you want to risk missing your stop and being stuffed around for a good 30 minutes by having to get off at the next stop, go right ahead.

I'd rather dart to the next door on the trains with terrible doors.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Actually, why do Melbourne trains even use non-automatic doors this side of 1990 anyway? The doors should open automatically when released, the button should exist only to reopen a closed (but not locked) door when they have timed out e.g. a train that has been idle at a station with the doors open for >1 minute.
Heihachi_73
I am of the opposite view, with Melbourne's hot Summers and freezing Winters the last thing I want is for every door to open at every stop just in case someone wants to get on or off

I have often wondered why doors on modern Melbourne trams open automatically when they were clearly designed to be opened at request by pax, they have the same illuminating buttons as some trains do

As to this issue about doors failing to open when people lean on the buttons, I and MANY others who travel on V/Locities lean into the button as soon as the train comes to a stand waiting for the doors which then open once the driver unlocks them

Every door would be a fail on some V/Line trips I reckon if this happened on the Velosettes Laughing
  historian Chief Commissioner

What are the rectifications?  Door authorization improvements?
The doors work fine. It appears that the initial issues were a mixture of software related and people holding them down instead of waiting for the light to turn green before pressing them.
Most of the (in my opinion) over exaggerated claims of the doors not working properly were made by rail enthusiasts who made the reports rather than the general public.
Op Kronos

Smile

On my trip last week from Dandenong to Caulfield on an HCMT I saw two passengers in my carriage, at two separate stations, give up on trying to make the doors open and bolt for the next door. And this is after how many months of revenue operation?

The doors work fine technically, but the design fails from a UX perspective. Particularly when Melbourne passengers have years of experience of doors that open irrespective of whether the passenger pushes the button before or after the driver and computerised control releases them. I'd bet most passengers don't even notice whether the doors have released when they push the button; they just push the button and keep pushing until it releases. And it's especially poor design given that the design change is a belt and braces change to cover a theoretical failure that may never occur.

The timeout after it fails to open is a particularly stupid UX idea as it has no safety benefit and it just encourages passengers to keep pushing the button. It's such a stupid idea that I've wondered if it is actually a timeout rather than the polling delay of a computerised system.

Of course, eventually, this problem will solve itself as passengers gradually learn the trick of waiting for the light to turn green. Don't hold your breath, though.

As to the relative complaints of the public vs railfans, why would you expect to see many complaints from the public? The public would have NFI who to complain to or how to complain; they certainly wouldn't post to Railpage. The public'd take it as just part and parcel of life's sucky UX design that we're all subjected to.
  YM-Mundrabilla The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
If it's stinking hot outside and stifling inside a Comeng; passengers will religiously close the doors having boarded or alighted (as distinct from 'deboarded or debarked') whilst if it's freezing cold, blowing a gale and persisting with rain they will inevitably leave them to close automatically in the 'fullness of time' ............
  Madjikthise Deputy Commissioner

Probably none, with the door debacle and the proposed 10-car operation they'll probably be stuck on the Metro Tunnel line for eternity.

Seriously though, how hard is it to program a door to open regardless of whether the button is tapped or held? If door is locked, ignore button; if door is released open door.

Actually, why do Melbourne trains even use non-automatic doors this side of 1990 anyway? The doors should open automatically when released, the button should exist only to reopen a closed (but not locked) door when they have timed out e.g. a train that has been idle at a station with the doors open for >1 minute.
Heihachi_73
Xtrapolis trains have done this for many years, just hold the button then they open after the driver releases them, although it's fun to watch some impatient passengers press it repeatedly almost in a panic to get out. Just another step backwards as usual for a government contract where the overall picture seems good but the detail is lacking.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Seems the government will double down on the new trains not yet fully delivered. http://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/order-for-highcapacity-trains-shows-airport-rail-link-on-track
Is this wise or should we all wait to see what they are like in 2 years time considering how many issues experienced with the trains.

Does suggest there will be electrification thankfully to the airport.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Is this wise or should we all wait to see what they are like in 2 years time considering how many issues experienced with the trains.
freightgate

The order for more HCMT's could be a little premature since the design might change with further use.  Only a small number have been delivered thus far considering the total amount outstanding could be a good idea. My guess is they are thinking about lead times for the trains.

5 sets, will that be sufficient and where are the HCMT airport line trains to be stabled?

Finally I think it is worrying they are pinning a train order on the airport line works being on track.
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
Is this wise or should we all wait to see what they are like in 2 years time considering how many issues experienced with the trains.

The order for more HCMT's could be a little premature since the design might change with further use.  Only a small number have been delivered thus far considering the total amount outstanding could be a good idea. My guess is they are thinking about lead times for the trains.

5 sets, will that be sufficient and where are the HCMT airport line trains to be stabled?

Finally I think it is worrying they are pinning a train order on the airport line works being on track.
bevans
40 built with at least 20 sets in revenue service that I saw in one day while working at Caulfield (7am-5pm) last week.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Is this wise or should we all wait to see what they are like in 2 years time considering how many issues experienced with the trains.

The order for more HCMT's could be a little premature since the design might change with further use.  Only a small number have been delivered thus far considering the total amount outstanding could be a good idea. My guess is they are thinking about lead times for the trains.

5 sets, will that be sufficient and where are the HCMT airport line trains to be stabled?

Finally I think it is worrying they are pinning a train order on the airport line works being on track.
40 built with at least 20 sets in revenue service that I saw in one day while working at Caulfield (7am-5pm) last week.
speedemon08
Laughing according to VicSig, 40 delivered and the 25th went into revenue service 30thApril.

62% delivered  is not a "small number".
The extra 5 would be after the initial order being ready for MM1 in 2025, and possibly after the increase size to 10 car.
Certainly timed for MARL. 2029 might even be brought forward when the reduced scope Business Case is revealed.

cheers
John
  Carnot Minister for Railways

I was on HCMT Set 35 last week.  Must be quite a few earlier ones getting major repairs still?
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
I was on HCMT Set 35 last week.  Must be quite a few earlier ones getting major repairs still?
Carnot

That's encouraging.
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
I was on HCMT Set 35 last week.  Must be quite a few earlier ones getting major repairs still?
Carnot
As per my other post, seen set numbers were weighted more towards the newer ones: 03, 08, 09, 10, 12, 13 15, 16, 19, 22, 23, 25, 28, 29, 30, 32, 33, 34 and 35.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
I was on HCMT Set 35 last week.  Must be quite a few earlier ones getting major repairs still?
Carnot
6 of the early ones still waiting some sort of fix.

Although E002 can be forgiven, it was chock full of test equipment from the early days, not much room left for real seating..

5 others are on the High Capacity Signals project. You'll see them late at night out Dandenong way.

VIicSig updates every month or so.
https://vicsig.net/suburban/train/HCMT

cheers
John

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