Channel nine just ran a special investigation most revealing.  From Pakenham travelling to Melbourne each workday by driving and paying tolls costs $234.00 per week.  By train the cost is $48 per week.

The cheapest cost to drive was from Werribee which does not involve tolls at that was $92 per week.

So why are we continuing to build more lanes on the freeways?

There are plenty of people for whom the Public transport network doesn't fit.

I'm not talking about people who look down at public transport, but people who's trip between home and work just isn't available via public transport.

I offer myself as an example.

I live in Melton and I work in Brooklyn. There is a bus stop right outside my workplace, the 903 bus goes past fairly frequently and runs directly between that stop and Sunshine station. These days, trains run fairly frequently between Melton and Sunshine too.

Due to the nature of my job, I don't have a set finishing time but most days I can expect to knock off at any time between 3pm and 4:30pm, and the drive home from work most days can take anywhere from 40 minutes to well over an hour. If I took public transport it would take at most 50 minutes (of course, that is on the assumption that it were actually running to schedule).

However, I start work at 4am, and the first train to Sunshine doesn't depart Melton until 5:07am, getting into Sunshine at 5:32am, at this stage I'm already over 90 minutes late for work, and I still have a bus to catch.

Until that changes, I will continue to drive to work.

Obviously that is just my reason for driving to and from work everyday, but I bet most of the people on the roads offer varying different stories that all end in the same problem, public transport just doesn't work for them.


And yes, If there were a train departing Melton at 3:17 arriving into Sunshine at 3:42  with a waiting 903 to take me to work in Brooklyn, then I probably would take it more often than not, but I'm not holding my breath.

Before car ownership became general people were restricted to living near their work, commuting by bicycle, or living and working near to where public transport could carry them.

Once most family units had access to at least one personal motor vehicle, the scope for commuting widened considerably.

Commensurate with this, governments of all persuasions decided they no longer needed to facilitate public transport into the new residential areas.
Governments and developers would build/fund the bare minimum amount of roads they could get away with, which was considered sufficient for the newly mobile populace. Although allowance had to be made for traffic from the greatly increased trade that motor vehicles facilitated (i.e. the motor lorry lobby).

The result is, instead of people moving along select corridors, the journey patterns (in time, as well as space) have become an intricate chaotic intermeshing maze, which public transport cannot hope to replicate.

Instead of building ever bigger in size and number of roads, the answer is to return to living and working in (urban) villages, and/or depending on the public transport that does exist*.

The change will be expensive and painful, which is why politicians will not embrace it.

* Exceptions: commute via bicycle, or for those in a position to do so, make a tree change.
** Further exception: Stop increasing the size of the existing coastal cities. Expand/build new regional cities with fast physical interconnectivity.

As above, PT isn't viable.  Driving to work takes 20 minutes each way.  Public transport takes two hours to get me to work, and it's a seven hour walk home because there is nothing running by the time I finish.  Treadly is a couple of hours each way.

I drove to work once in 22 years because I wanted to show my then new MINI to my colleagues in my office, otherwise in my 22 years of working in Victoria's Treasury precinct I would never have driven to work.

These days my seniors return fare to Melbourne, during the peak is around $13.00 a day and at present I travel to work twice a week and work from home the other three days. I also live only 3 blocks walk from my station.

It's all about planning where you live and work.

Mike.

Living in Geelong, I have to travel to inner Melbourne for work events a couple of times a week. If an event is a): outside of the CBD (or possibly Footscray, though it's extremely rare for anything to be on the western side of the city), and b): starts at 9am, I almost certainly can't get there in time on public transport, as the first buses in my area don't depart until around 7am and it's a (meandering) 25 minutes or so until the bus passes the nearest station.

This kind of situation doesn't really bode well for Geelong's future as a commuter city - but of course, if you live in Geelong you already have a car because the public transport system is rubbish, and if you already have a car who needs public transport?

There are plenty of people for whom the Public transport network doesn't fit.

I'm not talking about people who look down at public transport, but people who's trip between home and work just isn't available via public transport.

I offer myself as an example.

I live in Melton and I work in Brooklyn. There is a bus stop right outside my workplace, the 903 bus goes past fairly frequently and runs directly between that stop and Sunshine station. These days, trains run fairly frequently between Melton and Sunshine too.

Due to the nature of my job, I don't have a set finishing time but most days I can expect to knock off at any time between 3pm and 4:30pm, and the drive home from work most days can take anywhere from 40 minutes to well over an hour. If I took public transport it would take at most 50 minutes (of course, that is on the assumption that it were actually running to schedule).

However, I start work at 4am, and the first train to Sunshine doesn't depart Melton until 5:07am, getting into Sunshine at 5:32am, at this stage I'm already over 90 minutes late for work, and I still have a bus to catch.

Until that changes, I will continue to drive to work.

Obviously that is just my reason for driving to and from work everyday, but I bet most of the people on the roads offer varying different stories that all end in the same problem, public transport just doesn't work for them.


And yes, If there were a train departing Melton at 3:17 arriving into Sunshine at 3:42  with a waiting 903 to take me to work in Brooklyn, then I probably would take it more often than not, but I'm not holding my breath.

It is just a pity that Public Transport in Melbourne is so Mediocre. I am sorry that it appeared that I was having a go at the Andrews Government but it was not intentional. I am just so frustrated with the lack of Investment from both Labor and Liberal governments. (Yes the Bracks and Brumby Govts, weren't much chop either). And how Melbourne in Particular is so far behind Sydney. Thank god Melbourne did not get rid of its trams, or we would be right in the $hite.

Good luck Dan Andrews with trying to put right the absolute poor excuses for Bus and Heavy Rail networks in this state.

And voting in a Coalition Government who has no real understanding or care for Public Transport is not the answer.


Mannie

There are plenty of people for whom the Public transport network doesn't fit.

I'm not talking about people who look down at public transport, but people who's trip between home and work just isn't available via public transport.

I offer myself as an example.

I live in Melton and I work in Brooklyn. There is a bus stop right outside my workplace, the 903 bus goes past fairly frequently and runs directly between that stop and Sunshine station. These days, trains run fairly frequently between Melton and Sunshine too.

Due to the nature of my job, I don't have a set finishing time but most days I can expect to knock off at any time between 3pm and 4:30pm, and the drive home from work most days can take anywhere from 40 minutes to well over an hour. If I took public transport it would take at most 50 minutes (of course, that is on the assumption that it were actually running to schedule).

However, I start work at 4am, and the first train to Sunshine doesn't depart Melton until 5:07am, getting into Sunshine at 5:32am, at this stage I'm already over 90 minutes late for work, and I still have a bus to catch.

Until that changes, I will continue to drive to work.

Obviously that is just my reason for driving to and from work everyday, but I bet most of the people on the roads offer varying different stories that all end in the same problem, public transport just doesn't work for them.


And yes, If there were a train departing Melton at 3:17 arriving into Sunshine at 3:42  with a waiting 903 to take me to work in Brooklyn, then I probably would take it more often than not, but I'm not holding my breath.

It is just a pity that Public Transport in Melbourne is so Mediocre. I am sorry that it appeared that I was having a go at the Andrews Government but it was not intentional. I am just so frustrated with the lack of Investment from both Labor and Liberal governments. (Yes the Bracks and Brumby Govts, weren't much chop either). And how Melbourne in Particular is so far behind Sydney. Thank god Melbourne did not get rid of its trams, or we would be right in the $hite.

Good luck Dan Andrews with trying to put right the absolute poor excuses for Bus and Heavy Rail networks in this state.

And voting in a Coalition Government who has no real understanding or care for Public Transport is not the answer.


Mannie

What percentage of Melbourne is within walking distance of a tram, versus being within walking distance of a train station?  They're just as useless as each other if they're not near where you live.

These days my seniors return fare to Melbourne, during the peak is around $13.00 a day and at present I travel to work twice a week and work from home the other three days. I also live only 3 blocks walk from my station.

It's all about planning where you live and work.

Mike.

100% this.  Living within walking distance of a VLine station makes a huge difference.  It was one of the deciding factors in buying the house where we live.

Peak return full-fare Bendigo to Melb is pretty steep ($66 return per day) which turns off a lot of people.  Concession and Off-peak is very economic though.

People usually only compare the V/Line fare with the cost of petrol.  But petrol is surprisingly a small % of total cost in relation to the other more hidden costs of car travel...

All really good points in my view but flipping the argument I think the news piece was about understanding how expensive it has become to drive to work and how hard it actually is.  Tolls are a killer and I for one cannot see a treasurer who has owned Transurban shares ticking off any project that takes traffic off Transurban, it is called state capture.

Pakenham was the major focus but what about clyde?

Not everyone has the luxury of planning where they live and work...

Not everyone has the luxury of planning where they live and work...

That is certainly true but in my case I never take work unless it is CBD based or I can work from my home office.

Not everyone has the luxury of planning where they live and work...

That is certainly true but in my case I never take work unless it is CBD based or I can work from my home office.

Great if you can do that. My nephew has just started his first job out of uni. He has to travel from Huntingdale to Bayswater. Technically he could use PT, but it would take over 1 1/2 hours vs. 30 min in a car. PT is much cheaper though.

And seeming this is on the Vic forum, consider yourself lucky to have PT options over most of Melbourne. After trying for five years to get any sort of job in Portland, my wife finally cracked a position. In Hamilton. A 200 km round trip each day.

Not everyone has the luxury of planning where they live and work...

It's one of the major decisions of your life.

Seriously it's up there with buying a house. Even today, particularly in the west it's possible to live near a V/Line station and commute. If your job is on a different line or located in a PT desert, then that to me for several reasons would be a game changer.

I'm astonished at the cars lining up at the Hopkins Road level crossing (between Melton and Werribee) as we sail through at near 160Km/h. I definitely look down on the car drivers, but not the tradies because that's the nature of their work and think is that the best they can manage

To me I think what a dreadful situation these people are in.

Mike.

Not everyone has the luxury of planning where they live and work...

It's one of the major decisions of your life.

Seriously it's up there with buying a house. Even today, particularly in the west it's possible to live near a V/Line station and commute. If your job is on a different line or located in a PT desert, then that to me for several reasons would be a game changer.

I'm astonished at the cars lining up at the Hopkins Road level crossing (between Melton and Werribee) as we sail through at near 160Km/h. I definitely look down on the car drivers, but not the tradies because that's the nature of their work and think is that the best they can manage

To me I think what a dreadful situation these people are in.

Mike.

The abject failure of urban planning in Victoria is textbook material.

Not everyone has the luxury of planning where they live and work...

It's one of the major decisions of your life.

Seriously it's up there with buying a house. Even today, particularly in the west it's possible to live near a V/Line station and commute. If your job is on a different line or located in a PT desert, then that to me for several reasons would be a game changer.

I'm astonished at the cars lining up at the Hopkins Road level crossing (between Melton and Werribee) as we sail through at near 160Km/h. I definitely look down on the car drivers, but not the tradies because that's the nature of their work and think is that the best they can manage

To me I think what a dreadful situation these people are in.

Mike.

Not everyone has the means to be so discriminating when choosing where they live. For most people these days, it is as simple as what is available to them at their price point. To look down at people just because the best option they find themselves with is to drive too and from work as the PT option is just out of the question, well that says a lot more about you than it says about them I'm afraid.

Not everyone can work in the CBD.

Not everyone has the luxury of planning where they live and work...

It's one of the major decisions of your life.

Seriously it's up there with buying a house. Even today, particularly in the west it's possible to live near a V/Line station and commute. If your job is on a different line or located in a PT desert, then that to me for several reasons would be a game changer.

I'm astonished at the cars lining up at the Hopkins Road level crossing (between Melton and Werribee) as we sail through at near 160Km/h. I definitely look down on the car drivers, but not the tradies because that's the nature of their work and think is that the best they can manage

To me I think what a dreadful situation these people are in.

Mike.

Even if you plan everything out, things change.  One of my neighbours could walk to work, walk to the shops, and either walk or catch a bus to the train station.  Life was good.

Then his office moved to another site, and suddenly he was stuck with a 90 minute commute involving multiple trains and a bus to get to work (he can't drive for medical reasons).

Not everyone has the luxury of planning where they live and work...

It's one of the major decisions of your life.

Seriously it's up there with buying a house. Even today, particularly in the west it's possible to live near a V/Line station and commute. If your job is on a different line or located in a PT desert, then that to me for several reasons would be a game changer.

I'm astonished at the cars lining up at the Hopkins Road level crossing (between Melton and Werribee) as we sail through at near 160Km/h. I definitely look down on the car drivers, but not the tradies because that's the nature of their work and think is that the best they can manage

To me I think what a dreadful situation these people are in.

Mike.

Not everyone has the means to be so discriminating when choosing where they live. For most people these days, it is as simple as what is available to them at their price point. To look down at people just because the best option they find themselves with is to drive too and from work as the PT option is just out of the question, well that says a lot more about you than it says about them I'm afraid.

Not everyone can work in the CBD.

My point, attempted without causing offence is that some car drivers, apparently, look down on PT travellers, But they are so ignorant of the facts that they remain in their situation.

Also apparently many people would rather sit in traffic, at great monetary expense to themselves than to actually re-assess their situation.

Anyway, with a degree of smugness and if you accuse me of this, then so be it...happy to wear it. In my whole working life, I've never lived more than walking distance from a railway station either at Castlemaine, Laverton or Ballan when I'll likely retire this year.

Mike.

Not everyone has the luxury of planning where they live and work...

It's one of the major decisions of your life.

Seriously it's up there with buying a house. Even today, particularly in the west it's possible to live near a V/Line station and commute. If your job is on a different line or located in a PT desert, then that to me for several reasons would be a game changer.

I'm astonished at the cars lining up at the Hopkins Road level crossing (between Melton and Werribee) as we sail through at near 160Km/h. I definitely look down on the car drivers, but not the tradies because that's the nature of their work and think is that the best they can manage

To me I think what a dreadful situation these people are in.

Mike.

Not everyone has the means to be so discriminating when choosing where they live. For most people these days, it is as simple as what is available to them at their price point. To look down at people just because the best option they find themselves with is to drive too and from work as the PT option is just out of the question, well that says a lot more about you than it says about them I'm afraid.

Not everyone can work in the CBD.

My point, attempted without causing offence is that some car drivers, apparently, look down on PT travellers, But they are so ignorant of the facts that they remain in their situation.

Also apparently many people would rather sit in traffic, at great monetary expense to themselves than to actually re-assess their situation.

Anyway, with a degree of smugness and if you accuse me of this, then so be it...happy to wear it. In my whole working life, I've never lived more than walking distance from a railway station either at Castlemaine, Laverton or Ballan when I'll likely retire this year.

Mike.

Working in a 24/7 industry with varying shifts, precludes use of PT much of the time, as one of the trips is possible but the reverse is simply not with the poor scheduling of the different modes sand lack of buses late evening. It might be OK for some workers but I feel it just doesn't cut it for all. Lucky for those that have homes-schools-work linked up by great PT services. I agree that some people should reconsider their options from time to time- I do and I try them out from time to time but it's tricky if you don't have forgiving bosses.

There is a fair bit of classism to this I must say.

More and more blue collar businesses are setting up their operations in areas poorly served with public transport. Just take a look around Laverton North, Truganina & Derrimut for one example. There are bus routes along the major roads, but even then they run at poor intervals.

Then consider Melbourne Airport. It has been open for over 50 years, but only now are the various responsible governments seriously planning for a decent rail option to the Airport and even then, the focus is all about providing a travel option for the people going to the airport to fly in or out, but not a mention is made of the 14,000 odd people that commute to Melbourne Airport daily to work there.

I used to work at the Airport, the building I worked in was easily within walking distance to Terminal 1 (Qantas domestic) and not one of the 750 staff that worked in that building ever caught public transport to work. When I started working there, I was 17 so obviously I didn't have a license. Public transport still never came into my planning as it just wasn't an option. I looked at it, it just wasn't reasonable.

Meanwhile, newer and more affordable suburbs like Tarneit & Caroline Springs are not being designed to be easily serviced by bus routes. They aren't designed in a grid format like the old days, instead it is winding and worming through a maze of small streets that don't necessarily go where you might expect. Sending buses in there does nothing more than make them slow, inefficient and even worse - unappealing.

Then when the powers that be finally get around to providing a heavy rail station to these suburbs, it isn't within walking distance of anybody, so a suburb sized carpark is required, which (before March 2020 at least) fills up by 7am.



Maybe if Public Transport was given a fighting chance at the planning stage, then it might actually appeal to the majority of people, rather than just those commuting in to the inner city.

There is a fair bit of classism to this I must say.

More and more blue collar businesses are setting up their operations in areas poorly served with public transport. Just take a look around Laverton North, Truganina & Derrimut for one example. There are bus routes along the major roads, but even then they run at poor intervals.

There is a bike path that follows the eastern side of the Ring Road, so that's an option from Ardeer station to Boundary Road, Laverton North. The bike path joins the Federation bike path that follows the old Trunk sewer route right through Laverton Nth.

Perhaps it's not pleasant riding along Boundary Rd these days but it is an option for an alternative means of getting there. OR perhaps the bus.

https://www.ptv.vic.gov.au/route/timetable/12767/400-sunshine-station-laverton-station-via-robinsons-road/#RoutePage:::datetime=2022-04-06T19%3A49%3A06.067Z&direction_id=60&stop_id=-1&_auth=a1c6c0416cd62a0757870aa18632a84d6c88f55c3b267add23308f8e3ceea7bd

Combined with the bike. but my feeling is many of the people working in that area wouldn't like to be seen arriving at work on foot or by bus or bike due to the 'blokey' nature of the environment.

Gotta have a 4x4 or an SUV...and to hell with the expense.

If that's classism...I'll wear it.

Mike.

Boundary Rd, Dohertys Rd, Leakes Rd, Fitzgerald Rd, Palmers Rd.

None of these roads (some of them recently receiving major upgrades) are suited to cyclists. They are heavily trafficked by heavy vehicles of all sizes up to and including road trains. Personally I think you would have to be a bit mad to cycle on road in that whole area.

Regarding my comment about classism, that wasn't pointed directly at you Mike. More a comment on the apparent classism involved in planning in these blue collar areas.

Just take a look at these major roads that have had major upgrades in the last few years. A lot of time and money went into planning and upgrading those roads, but not a lot of time or money went into adding cycling infrastructure to go with it. Nor a lot of money going into improving public transport capacity and flexibility in these areas.

Incidently, still waiting to here some detail on this supposed Western Rail Plan.

Boundary Rd, Dohertys Rd, Leakes Rd, Fitzgerald Rd, Palmers Rd.

None of these roads (some of them recently receiving major upgrades) are suited to cyclists. They are heavily trafficked by heavy vehicles of all sizes up to and including road trains. Personally I think you would have to be a bit mad to cycle on road in that whole area.

Regarding my comment about classism, that wasn't pointed directly at you Mike. More a comment on the apparent classism involved in planning in these blue collar areas.

Just take a look at these major roads that have had major upgrades in the last few years. A lot of time and money went into planning and upgrading those roads, but not a lot of time or money went into adding cycling infrastructure to go with it. Nor a lot of money going into improving public transport capacity and flexibility in these areas.

Incidently, still waiting to here some detail on this supposed Western Rail Plan.

Agree totally! As for the Western Rail Plan - it's a bits and pieces job of sparks, new track pairs and Airport Rail along with where that SRL will fit into it. Seems we all know what's needed and the WRP is well overdue to be released. It's a multi step plan, but it's well overdue to be shown, even if it just lists the various jobs and an order of works to be rolled out over the next  election cycle. I just hope it doesn't end up another farce like the MBRP

I lived in Sunbury since I was a teenager some 20 years ago. I remember then having a part-time job in Broadmeadows, back then it was a bus hourly via the Airport with a combined route having some services end at Airport West. Travel time was about 40 minutes, while a little longer than a car trip, not that I could drive, it was the hourly service that ended at 6 pm being the killer. I still live in Sunbury now, and that bus route, while being cut short to the Airport still has its first service at 06.01, with just two services on the weekend. Untouched for 20 plus years.

As was pointed out when SRL came about, frequent bus services connecting suburbs and employment zones would do the same job now while SRL is under construction.

A good proportion of Airport workers live in the surrounding suburbs like Sunbury, Broadmeadows and Craigieburn. Yet the 901 is the only change to PT at the Airport. It doesn't take much to have a 20-minute all-day service from 5 am through to midnight running from Sunbury through to Craigieburn via the airport to give thousands of Airport workers an option besides driving. The 901 is the case in point, when I've caught this service there are always 20 to 30 people getting off or on at the Airport to connect with Broadmeadows.

These days I persist with PT and work in South Yarra. Monday to Friday sans a delay I can travel door to door in an hour with a few minutes  connection time a Flinders Street. If I'm working late this can near double with a 30 minute wait time once the sun goes down, while South Yarra always has good frequency thanks to the Dandenong Group, Sunbury is not so lucky. Come a weekend it gets worse with an hourly early morning service and a 40-minute service during the day.

It's not the price of PT that puts people off, it's the lack of services. For those in new areas, it's even dire, with a bus nowhere to be found.

I moved a few years ago into a new estate, they duplicated a section of road and built new bus stops with shelters, tactiles and line-markings. The only thing still missing three years on is an actual bus.

Lockie