Hydrogen should fuel Inland Rail, says Arcadis

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 03 Jun 2022 10:11
  8502 Assistant Commissioner

This is the first time I have read any commentary on making the east coast rail backbone carbon neutral with hydrogen locomotive investment what  great idea.  What would be required besides the locomotives and where would you need refueling states what is the distance a locomotives can travel between refueling?

Hydrogen should fuel Inland Rail, says Arcadis

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  Sulla1 Chief Commissioner

Aurizon is planning to be testing hydrogen fuelled locomotives on the Mt Isa and Moura lines by 2025. Depending on the power output, a hydrogen locomotive should be able to store enough hydrogen to travel up to 800km to 1,000km.
  YM-Mundrabilla The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Aurizon is planning to be testing hydrogen fuelled locomotives on the Mt Isa and Moura lines by 2025. Depending on the power output, a hydrogen locomotive should be able to store enough hydrogen to travel up to 800km to 1,000km.
Sulla1
Melbourne to Sydney is ~1,000 km.
ER* at Demondrille
On the Trans ER at Tarcoola and Rawlinna
Just like the steam days. Sad

* engine requirements.
  Sulla1 Chief Commissioner

It's very early days, and technology is always going to improve, but I'd say the initial prototypes will have to balance power with range. More power less range, more range less power. There'll be techniques like increasing storage pressure that will also help. That seems to be where hydrogen powered truck technology is heading at the moment.
  8502 Assistant Commissioner

Aurizon is planning to be testing hydrogen fuelled locomotives on the Mt Isa and Moura lines by 2025. Depending on the power output, a hydrogen locomotive should be able to store enough hydrogen to travel up to 800km to 1,000km.
Sulla1

The inland rail link is longer at 1727 kms in length meaning a central refueling area for locomotives will be required with storage for hydrogen.  This will be in addition to 1 in Melbourne and 1 in Brisbane.
  historian Chief Commissioner

This is the first time I have read any commentary on making the east coast rail backbone carbon neutral with hydrogen locomotive investment what  great idea.  What would be required besides the locomotives and where would you need refueling states what is the distance a locomotives can travel between refueling?

Hydrogen should fuel Inland Rail, says Arcadis
8502

Entertaining, but does raise some questions:

  1. In making judgements about CO2 savings, where are they assuming the Hydrogen is coming from? (Most current Hydrogen schemes are covers for the coal/gas industry where Hydrogen is stripped from hydrocarbons at a high cost in energy.)
  2. Exactly what are the investments we're making now that will be obsolete and wasted if diesel tech is replaced by Hydrogen in a few years? (There's a strong 'act now or it will be more expensive' vibe, reminiscant of dodgy late night commercials.)

Bear in mind that this is an engineering study funded by a company that thinks they may have a solution to the problem of *transporting* Hydrogen. First, this is only a small part of the problem. Second, the company has a strong vested interest in seeing Hydrogen power adopted. Third, it's not a proven technology, let alone at the scale necessary to power a major railway line.
  YM-Mundrabilla The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
This is the first time I have read any commentary on making the east coast rail backbone carbon neutral with hydrogen locomotive investment what  great idea.  What would be required besides the locomotives and where would you need refueling states what is the distance a locomotives can travel between refueling?

Hydrogen should fuel Inland Rail, says Arcadis

Entertaining, but does raise some questions:

  1. In making judgements about CO2 savings, where are they assuming the Hydrogen is coming from? (Most current Hydrogen schemes are covers for the coal/gas industry where Hydrogen is stripped from hydrocarbons at a high cost in energy.)
  2. Exactly what are the investments we're making now that will be obsolete and wasted if diesel tech is replaced by Hydrogen in a few years? (There's a strong 'act now or it will be more expensive' vibe, reminiscant of dodgy late night commercials.)

Bear in mind that this is an engineering study funded by a company that thinks they may have a solution to the problem of *transporting* Hydrogen. First, this is only a small part of the problem. Second, the company has a strong vested interest in seeing Hydrogen power adopted. Third, it's not a proven technology, let alone at the scale necessary to power a major railway line.
historian
Well said Historian.

So many of these wonderful earth saving news items are nothing more than free commercials. Is the hydrogen proposed green, blue, brown or one of the other multi colours designed to cover its dodgy manufacture.

As for the 'dodgy late night commercials' - they are often more blatant and now see the light of day.  Thank goodness the election is over. Smile
  historian Chief Commissioner

Aurizon is planning to be testing hydrogen fuelled locomotives on the Mt Isa and Moura lines by 2025. Depending on the power output, a hydrogen locomotive should be able to store enough hydrogen to travel up to 800km to 1,000km.
Sulla1

It'll be interesting to see whether this pans out.

An analysis of the alternatives to OLE presented in the 6th edition of 'Overhead Line Electrification' (*) and based on a UK railway rail industry study notes the following challenges to be addressed:
  1. Stored energy density on the locomotive is 14% of diesel, meaning the storage tanks have to be 7 times the size of those on a diesel with equivalent range & power. (And, of course, are major pressure vessels compared with the simple tanks of diesel trains.)
  2. The fuel cells used to convert the stored hydrogen to electricity are most efficient when worked at a steady load. Since the essence of a locomotive is continually variable power output, this requires the locomotives to carry a (very) large battery to flatten power demand.
  3. Current industrial scale hydrogen generation is steam reforming of gas, meaning that the whole process is as carbon intensive as running the train on diesel in the first place.

The base study concluded that hydrogen would be currently technically practical for small passenger trains, but not for high speed rail or freight.

(*) Can be downloaded from https://ocs4rail.com/ Yes, this book is all about overhead electrification and might be biased towards OLE solutions, but it references the underlying study.
  8502 Assistant Commissioner

Maybe electrification with renewable power is the better option as discussed in other threads?
  historian Chief Commissioner

Maybe electrification with renewable power is the better option as discussed in other threads?
8502

That was certainly the conclusion that the author of the book on OLE came to! Very Happy
  YM-Mundrabilla The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
We should OPTIMISE our current diesel electric operation NOW before launching into other FAR OFF alternatives that may well suit rail transport in countries that are totally unlike Australia.
  • Better track
  • Finish Inland Rail properly
  • Better and more convenient terminals including those at Ports
  • Double stack
  • Reliable 'set your watch* by it' operation. (* A Swiss watch, of course)
  • Full engine loads at fuel efficient speeds
  • Modify our 'just in time' mentality to suit
  • There are just too many excuses for non-performance
  • Have Humphrey Appleby in Canberra publish on-time statistics for interstate rail freight as he does for air traffic
  • Have a coordinated plan to increase long distance transport from road to efficient, reliable, punctual and customer focused rail
Sadly our Governments have sold (for a few pieces of silver) their right and ability to govern for the nation's overall good in this regard. We are completely beholden to privateers, bean counters and nay sayers.

Give Lindsay Fox, Andrew Forrest, Peter Smith (?) et al the task of making a start of a major mode shift for long distance rail linehaul.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
“The design of the rail link must therefore allow for ammonia and hydrogen fuel to be easily stored and accessed along the route. The time to do that is now, as fuel transfer and storage requirements are built into the initial design and construction stage of the project. It will be much more expensive to retrofit fuel infrastructure to accommodate future fuels once the project is up and running.”
Somebody


The crux of the matter. The private sector looking for government handouts as usual.
  YM-Mundrabilla The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Maybe electrification with renewable power is the better option as discussed in other threads?
8502
Yes, produced by gas that we don't have or coal that is politically unacceptable. Optimise what we have.
  YM-Mundrabilla The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
“The design of the rail link must therefore allow for ammonia and hydrogen fuel to be easily stored and accessed along the route. The time to do that is now, as fuel transfer and storage requirements are built into the initial design and construction stage of the project. It will be much more expensive to retrofit fuel infrastructure to accommodate future fuels once the project is up and running.”


The crux of the matter. The private sector looking for government handouts as usual.
bingley hall
Absolutely.
Nationalise the bastards I say.Rolling Eyes
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Really not sold on hydrogen for long distance freight services where electrification on renewable energy is a breed approach for the next 25 years making rail even more competitive against trucks over the same distances.

What renewable power is available in NSW other than snowy ?
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
“The design of the rail link must therefore allow for ammonia and hydrogen fuel to be easily stored and accessed along the route. The time to do that is now, as fuel transfer and storage requirements are built into the initial design and construction stage of the project. It will be much more expensive to retrofit fuel infrastructure to accommodate future fuels once the project is up and running.”


The crux of the matter. The private sector looking for government handouts as usual.
Absolutely.
Nationalise the bastards I say.Rolling Eyes
YM-Mundrabilla
I took one look at the headline yesterday and thought to myself: "I wonder how much they have invested on backing hydrogen"
  Lockspike Chief Commissioner

I took one look at the headline yesterday and thought to myself: "I wonder how much they have invested on backing hydrogen"
speedemon08
First entrepreneurial rule is, "Don't use your own money".
  Lockspike Chief Commissioner

Maybe electrification with renewable power is the better option as discussed in other threads?

That was certainly the conclusion that the author of the book on OLE came to! Very Happy
historian
I'm going to set up a hydrogen refuelling service station, just near Baradine; that's about halfway. Razz

Full driveway service: Fill'er up, Driver? Check lube oil, coolant, washer bottle, clean screens, empty toilet tank, sweep cab floor.
I wonder if ARTC will let me set up on their main line, or make me build a siding?

Damn you blokes, talking about OLE, and raining on my parade! Sad

I woz gunna' make a fortune! Rolling Eyes
  Carnot Minister for Railways

I think a better option is a hybrid approach which Twiggy Forrest is running with:
- A Diesel Electric loco (or H2 in future) + Battery Electric loco which is charged by dynamic braking.

As for Inland Rail, also consider Overhead power on steeper sections (ie. Brisbane to Toowoomba, Melbourne to Seymour) which would also enable EMU passenger trains to run on it and also boost/charge the Battery loco.
  YM-Mundrabilla The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Maybe electrification with renewable power is the better option as discussed in other threads?

That was certainly the conclusion that the author of the book on OLE came to! Very Happy
I'm going to set up a hydrogen refuelling service station, just near Baradine; that's about halfway. Razz

Full driveway service: Fill'er up, Driver? Check lube oil, coolant, washer bottle, clean screens, empty toilet tank, sweep cab floor.
I wonder if ARTC will let me set up on their main line, or make me build a siding?

Damn you blokes, talking about OLE, and raining on my parade! Sad

I woz gunna' make a fortune! Rolling Eyes
Lockspike
Not to worry just use your hydrogen to make electricity to feed into the overhead.
Any surplus electrickery can then be used to make hydrogen! Smile
You cannot lose using someone else's money but remember not to build your siding as BG.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Maybe electrification with renewable power is the better option as discussed in other threads?

That was certainly the conclusion that the author of the book on OLE came to! Very Happy
I'm going to set up a hydrogen refuelling service station, just near Baradine; that's about halfway. Razz

Full driveway service: Fill'er up, Driver? Check lube oil, coolant, washer bottle, clean screens, empty toilet tank, sweep cab floor.
I wonder if ARTC will let me set up on their main line, or make me build a siding?

Damn you blokes, talking about OLE, and raining on my parade! Sad

I woz gunna' make a fortune! Rolling Eyes
Lockspike
mmmm you might actually be on to something @Lockspike.

Move a bit further south to Dubbo, and you have a large Solar farm waiting for expansion into a Hydrogen factory.

Not only is Dubbo a narural centre for the national railways & highways, but why not energy.

cheers
John
  YM-Mundrabilla The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Are you all saying that my hydrogen filling station at Demondrille is ill-conceived?

I was going to reinstate the coal stage there to cater for gunzel trips but principally to store the coal for my coal fired power station needed to produce the hydrogen.

Given the dual purpose of my facility I am certain that I can undercut Lockspike's prices at Baradine.

Somehow I think that there will be a greater requirement for gunzel coal than hydrogen for interstate rail freight anyway so a NODY of coal, some shovels and a backhoe might do it all.
  Lockspike Chief Commissioner

Are you all saying that my hydrogen filling station at Demondrille is ill-conceived?

I was going to reinstate the coal stage there to cater for gunzel trips but principally to store the coal for my coal fired power station needed to produce the hydrogen.

Given the dual purpose of my facility I am certain that I can undercut Lockspike's prices at Baradine.

Somehow I think that there will be a greater requirement for gunzel coal than hydrogen for interstate rail freight anyway so a NODY of coal, some shovels and a backhoe might do it all.
YM-Mundrabilla
Oh, damn and blast! A competitor undercutting me already!

Well I got news for you YM; once you've set up at Demondrille you might be wondering where all the customers are, 'cos Demondrille's more than 40km away from Inland Rail at it's closest point, and that's as the crow flies!

Sheesh, these ComRails types; take 'em off the Nullarbor and they don't have a clue! Razz
  Lockspike Chief Commissioner

mmmm you might actually be on to something @Lockspike.

Move a bit further south to Dubbo, and you have a large Solar farm waiting for expansion into a Hydrogen factory.

Not only is Dubbo a narural centre for the national railways & highways, but why not energy.

cheers
John
justarider
Something occurred to me while I was giving YM-M a geography lesson, Dubbo's not on the Inland Rail either!

I don't need masses o' electrikery, I'm not gunna' make it, I'm just gunna' flog it, to anyone who'll pay; bring ya' platinum card.

Dubbo's on the (rail) road to nowhere except for seeds and Cobar rocks.
Parkes is the N/S/E/W rail intersection (and with good highway links), that's why both SCT and PN have set up terminals there.
  YM-Mundrabilla The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
mmmm you might actually be on to something @Lockspike.

Move a bit further south to Dubbo, and you have a large Solar farm waiting for expansion into a Hydrogen factory.

Not only is Dubbo a narural centre for the national railways & highways, but why not energy.

cheers
John
Something occurred to me while I was giving YM-M a geography lesson, Dubbo's not on the Inland Rail either!

I don't need masses o' electrikery, I'm not gunna' make it, I'm just gunna' flog it, to anyone who'll pay; bring ya' platinum card.

Dubbo's on the (rail) road to nowhere except for seeds and Cobar rocks.
Parkes is the N/S/E/W rail intersection (and with good highway links), that's why both SCT and PN have set up terminals there.
Lockspike
Oops.

Bloody Pommie consultants.

Too late now! I will now abandon Inland Rail which Albo seems likely to defer/delay (whatever) and instead I will sell to the traffic on the Main South so you can have Baradine as a monopoly.

Only problem at Demondrille is I will have to get the 57s that were stowed there shifted. Lucky that I saw them on my last  Yard Check around 0300 one day late in 1961.

Demondrille is really only a pilot plant for the main one to be built at Mundrabilla which will not, of course, fit with the ER for any trains coming or going east or west. I don't want them cluttering the yard and disturbing the tranquility of the place. Rolling Eyes

Perhaps we should have a Thread Topic for idiocy!

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